11: The Innovator’s Dilemma by Clayton M. Christensen

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1. 00:00:00 So what's going on in Mike's world?
2. 00:00:02 Just getting ready for the big email launch, which actually
3. 00:00:09 by the time if you do include this in the episode by the time this would, this
4. 00:00:14 would air, then I believe it will have been released.
5. 00:00:18 So nice.
6. 00:00:20 It's getting real.
7. 00:00:21 Yeah.
8. 00:00:22 Gotta love that.
9. 00:00:25 I hate the time between the moment that you finish a product and typically, and
10. 00:00:32 it sounds like you guys do this the same way.
11. 00:00:35 Typically, at least for me, I finish something and then it's like a couple
12. 00:00:38 weeks later that you'll actually release it.
13. 00:00:42 It's like I hate that two week period.
14. 00:00:44 Absolutely hate it.
15. 00:00:45 Because I start wondering, it's like, okay, did I get everything included?
16. 00:00:49 Did I get it all buttoned up the right way?
17. 00:00:51 What if it doesn't go out the way I want it to?
18. 00:00:53 I hate it.
19. 00:00:55 There's been stuff already since I finished it that things have changed and I've had
20. 00:01:00 to go back and fix because the app is no longer called the same thing or they
21. 00:01:06 updated their icon.
22. 00:01:07 Right.
23. 00:01:08 So it is what it is.
24. 00:01:10 I just want nothing else to change until we actually can launch it.
25. 00:01:13 Yeah.
26. 00:01:14 I am super excited about this launch.
27. 00:01:16 I've mentioned a little bit about the process, I think, in previous podcast
28. 00:01:21 episodes where we've been doing interviews and working closely with people to solve
29. 00:01:26 their specific pain points regarding email.
30. 00:01:29 Right.
31. 00:01:30 And we've gotten some amazing testimonials back from people who are like, oh my gosh,
32. 00:01:34 this has changed my life.
33. 00:01:36 It's like, we just helped you fix what you said was broken.
34. 00:01:40 We're glad we could help, but you did the work.
35. 00:01:43 Right.
36. 00:01:44 You did everything.
37. 00:01:45 Yeah.
38. 00:01:46 It feels really good to be able to help people in that way though.
39. 00:01:50 I was just saying, I used to have like 1,700 messages and I was spending literally
40. 00:01:55 my entire day dealing with email.
41. 00:01:57 Now everybody in my organization got all stressed out the other day when we had
42. 00:02:01 a day long meeting, but I was on top of everything and everybody was like, how
43. 00:02:04 do you do that?
44. 00:02:05 Yeah.
45. 00:02:06 She's like, well, I went through this course.
46. 00:02:08 Oh dude.
47. 00:02:09 Changed my life.
48. 00:02:10 And I'm like, well, awesome.
49. 00:02:11 That's always a good feeling.
50. 00:02:14 I get that a number of times with the working with the Omni Focus course and it's
51. 00:02:19 helpful to see.
52. 00:02:20 Obviously you get the haters that come out of that, but it's always exciting to see
53. 00:02:26 when people get really interested and it helps in a big way.
54. 00:02:30 It's like, yes, that's why I do this.
55. 00:02:32 This is one of the things I was trying to figure out.
56. 00:02:34 Why am I doing my online business?
57. 00:02:35 That right there.
58. 00:02:36 That's it.
59. 00:02:37 You got it.
60. 00:02:38 So as long as it's able to help people make a big change in some form in their life,
61. 00:02:44 awesome.
62. 00:02:45 That's exactly why I continue doing these things.
63. 00:02:47 You operate on the same pattern there.
64. 00:02:49 It's like, okay, I made this thing and I let people go see it.
65. 00:02:53 And now they're really excited about it and it made a big impact.
66. 00:02:56 Yes.
67. 00:02:57 Yes, yes, yes.
68. 00:02:58 Now I want to do more.
69. 00:02:59 Exactly.
70. 00:03:00 I mean, it's going to be probably a, the financial success is almost secondary at that point
71. 00:03:08 because it just feels so good to be able to help people solve their problems.
72. 00:03:11 Yeah.
73. 00:03:12 Yeah.
74. 00:03:13 Especially regarding email.
75. 00:03:14 So transition, we got an email.
76. 00:03:16 Yes.
77. 00:03:17 Do you want to talk about this one?
78. 00:03:18 This email was awesome.
79. 00:03:19 Yeah.
80. 00:03:20 And I don't, I don't get a lot like most emails I get on the bookworm contact form.
81. 00:03:28 So just so everybody knows those go to me.
82. 00:03:30 I don't know if that's good or bad, but that's the way it is.
83. 00:03:33 Now that we're talking about email, but this one in particular stood out and it's from
84. 00:03:39 Amber and it's one that I don't just in my general online business and working world,
85. 00:03:46 I don't get emails of this length and of this detail very often.
86. 00:03:52 But when I do, they're always very interesting and I want to, I want to share them with the
87. 00:03:57 world, but Amber hasn't given me any permissions whatsoever on this.
88. 00:04:00 So if you're listening to this, Amber, thank you for sending this.
89. 00:04:04 I haven't replied to you yet.
90. 00:04:05 I'm sorry.
91. 00:04:06 We're going to talk about it now.
92. 00:04:08 So what this email is, is a lady by the name of Amber.
93. 00:04:13 She is a stay at home mom homeschooling with five kids and her husband introduced her to
94. 00:04:18 this podcast and they have been listening, their loyal listeners.
95. 00:04:23 And it sounds like they have created their own little book club within their family.
96. 00:04:29 And it's, it's kind of exciting to see how something that little old us put together,
97. 00:04:35 is to, you know, read books and talk about it is starting to inspire in this case a stay
98. 00:04:39 at home mom with her kids to begin reading books more often.
99. 00:04:44 So I think that's pretty exciting.
100. 00:04:45 I like that.
101. 00:04:46 Yeah, that's awesome.
102. 00:04:47 You go Amber.
103. 00:04:48 And that's exactly why we started this podcast.
104. 00:04:52 At least my, my motivation for starting it was that we were going to go through this.
105. 00:04:57 We were going to record these conversations, put them up on the internet and maybe other
106. 00:05:01 people could benefit from them.
107. 00:05:02 But at the very least, I was going to benefit from them.
108. 00:05:05 Yes.
109. 00:05:06 Because I'm synthesizing the information and I'm applying it to, to my life.
110. 00:05:10 So you know, we're able to help people do that.
111. 00:05:12 That's, that's awesome.
112. 00:05:13 But yeah, I really like, what I really like about that email is that Amber took the idea
113. 00:05:18 and she modified it slightly and made it fit for her, which is really the ideal way to
114. 00:05:24 approach anything.
115. 00:05:25 And that's the way that we approach every single one of these books, I think is like,
116. 00:05:28 we're going to take a look at this information.
117. 00:05:30 We're going to take a look, some of them have prescriptive formulas where you do this and
118. 00:05:34 you get this.
119. 00:05:35 But for the most part, it's like, what is the thing in here that I can really latch
120. 00:05:39 on to?
121. 00:05:40 I'm not going to try and change my entire life every single time I read one of these
122. 00:05:43 books, but I'm going to grab a few things that I can implement, small changes, which
123. 00:05:47 will produce compound results in the long run.
124. 00:05:50 And I really love that, because the thing that they've picked up on here is that you
125. 00:05:55 and I alternate picking books.
126. 00:05:57 So I love this.
127. 00:05:58 I mean, her husband picked their first book.
128. 00:06:00 It sounds like they picked essentialism as the first.
129. 00:06:04 And then they're alternating.
130. 00:06:05 Good choice.
131. 00:06:06 Good choice.
132. 00:06:07 I know.
133. 00:06:08 They're alternating who is picking which book comes next.
134. 00:06:11 So they're alternating and trading turns within the family as to who's is coming next.
135. 00:06:17 So I like it.
136. 00:06:18 I'm a big fan.
137. 00:06:19 I mentioned this to my wife and she's like, I don't see how people have the energy or
138. 00:06:24 the strength to do this as a family.
139. 00:06:26 I don't think I could do that.
140. 00:06:27 I was like, well, I get it.
141. 00:06:30 But at the same time, it sounded like they were planning on this taking multiple months
142. 00:06:34 per book if I read this correctly.
143. 00:06:36 So it doesn't have to be every two weeks like what we do.
144. 00:06:41 That's we're a bit crazy in that.
145. 00:06:43 That's why it's called Bookworm.
146. 00:06:44 It's, you know, we go through a lot of books.
147. 00:06:46 We are crazy.
148. 00:06:48 Arse is official.
149. 00:06:49 Yours is not.
150. 00:06:53 So I was a big fan.
151. 00:06:54 That's why I wanted to share it.
152. 00:06:55 It's one of those things that, like we were talking about earlier, you hear about these
153. 00:06:59 and it's the part that gets us pretty excited about what we're doing and has us continue
154. 00:07:05 keep doing it.
155. 00:07:06 So it's the motivating stuff, the feedback that we get from people.
156. 00:07:09 So it was exciting.
157. 00:07:10 That's why I wanted to bring it up.
158. 00:07:12 Yes, definitely.
159. 00:07:13 Thank you, Amber.
160. 00:07:14 We really appreciate it.
161. 00:07:15 And kind of piggybacking off of that.
162. 00:07:17 It's one of the things I had from last time that I wanted to do for this time around is
163. 00:07:22 making sure that I understand my personal why of my online business.
164. 00:07:27 Because I do a lot of things online.
165. 00:07:29 Like we were talking likely before, depending on where we cut this before the show started,
166. 00:07:33 I've been working on some custom WordPress theme for a client.
167. 00:07:38 So there's just a lot of code and things I'm doing there.
168. 00:07:41 Anyway, I understand why I build websites for people.
169. 00:07:45 But I don't always have the why behind why I write for the blog or why I give away scripts
170. 00:07:50 or build working with OmniFocus.
171. 00:07:53 I don't always have a defined rationale for why I'm doing that.
172. 00:07:57 And I think what I've come to on this mic and all of the listeners out there is my ultimate
173. 00:08:03 purpose behind that is simply to help people get better at the productivity tools that exist
174. 00:08:07 out there.
175. 00:08:08 And that manifests itself through seeing how people are using the stuff that I've created
176. 00:08:16 or how they are implementing the little bits each day.
177. 00:08:20 So those are the things that get me really excited and that's why I continue doing that.
178. 00:08:23 So it's kind of self-serving I guess, but at the same time, it's a way to help a lot
179. 00:08:28 of people with very little into it, if that makes sense.
180. 00:08:33 Yep.
181. 00:08:34 My pastor told me one time that you need to do what brings you life.
182. 00:08:40 And I think that what you're saying is that what brings you life is seeing how people
183. 00:08:45 implement this stuff and the kind of results that they get from it.
184. 00:08:49 I think so, yeah.
185. 00:08:51 And this without going too deep down a deep work rabbit hole, this why is different than
186. 00:09:04 things that you like doing.
187. 00:09:05 It kind of comes back to the whole idea of passion, which Kel Newport talks about and
188. 00:09:10 how follow your passion is really bad advice because we'll see people think that's do what
189. 00:09:15 you really like to do.
190. 00:09:16 But really it's when you get done and you look at something, do you feel satisfied?
191. 00:09:21 Do you feel rewarded intrinsically just by the fact that you've done this thing?
192. 00:09:27 Because the word passion really what it means is to suffer.
193. 00:09:30 So what is it that you're willing to suffer through to see come about?
194. 00:09:34 What vision are you willing to suffer through in order to see it materialize?
195. 00:09:39 And so I kind of took that approach from my follow up item here, which you put, what
196. 00:09:44 is the why behind all the things?
197. 00:09:46 Well, that's how you explained it in the last show.
198. 00:09:49 I was like, well, I don't know how to write this down for follow up because you said you
199. 00:09:53 wanted to find the why behind all the things.
200. 00:09:55 I liked the way you said that.
201. 00:09:56 So I figured I would put it in exactly like that and see what you did with it.
202. 00:10:01 Yep.
203. 00:10:02 Well, I'll give you the too long didn't read version, I guess, without going into all
204. 00:10:06 the things.
205. 00:10:07 But really what I did is I took a look at all of my commitments and everything that
206. 00:10:13 I've said yes to kind of through the lens of if I hadn't already said yes to this thing,
207. 00:10:17 what I say yes to it right now.
208. 00:10:20 And any of the things that weren't a resounding yes are either gone or on the chopping block,
209. 00:10:28 because really what it forced me to do was to connect back to the why when I first agreed
210. 00:10:34 to do this specific thing, why did I say that I wanted to do this?
211. 00:10:39 So one of the things I'll just give you one of the things that came from this, I guess,
212. 00:10:44 looking back at my work with Asian efficiency and everything that I've been doing recently
213. 00:10:50 with this email video course in particular, I've really kind of zeroed in on my why in
214. 00:10:58 that aspect because I really feel like through developing these videos, I've kind of found
215. 00:11:04 my sweet spot in terms of product development, I mentioned that I really enjoy helping people
216. 00:11:13 really make the most of what they've been given, what their time, their talent, their
217. 00:11:17 ability, the tools that they have at their disposal, how to use them more effectively
218. 00:11:21 so that you can free up more time for the things that are really important.
219. 00:11:24 Like I really like seeing the results of that.
220. 00:11:27 And through the whole development process for this particular product where we're testing
221. 00:11:30 out these solutions that we're crafting with the people who had the problems in the first
222. 00:11:35 place, I'm really discovering that this particular video format really is something that I'm
223. 00:11:43 pretty good at.
224. 00:11:45 And it's not that I really enjoy doing it or even that it's really easy to do but I
225. 00:11:52 can see the big picture and I can see how these things come together.
226. 00:11:56 And so my why in terms of what I do with Asian efficiency is become a little bit more clear
227. 00:12:04 because I now have a specific format for how I best communicate these solutions if that
228. 00:12:10 does that make sense?
229. 00:12:11 It does to me.
230. 00:12:12 Yeah, because I've kind of made some of that same shift.
231. 00:12:16 I've done a lot of writing in the productivity space.
232. 00:12:21 And what I've just figured out Mike is I'm kind of like you in the video format.
233. 00:12:26 Like the screencasting type thing put together a keynote and record it.
234. 00:12:30 That type of scenario, at least for me, I feel like I can convey my ideas better that
235. 00:12:35 way.
236. 00:12:36 Exactly.
237. 00:12:37 Yep.
238. 00:12:38 Right.
239. 00:12:39 So I've kind of nailed down because my whole journey started when I wasn't a writer and
240. 00:12:41 then I started writing and then I wasn't a podcaster and I started podcasting.
241. 00:12:47 So I was not a video producer but really that is the thing where when I get done with something
242. 00:12:52 and other people have verified this is like, whoa, this is high quality.
243. 00:12:57 This is really good.
244. 00:12:58 This really helps me.
245. 00:13:00 And so I feel like I've got just a little bit more focus on what my direction, like
246. 00:13:08 what the end result is supposed to look like, if that makes sense.
247. 00:13:11 Yeah.
248. 00:13:12 And that's what ultimately leads your personal business along with the business of Asian
249. 00:13:18 efficiency to become better because you figure out how and why you do things.
250. 00:13:21 You know, that's what Simon Sennick was getting at is if you understand your why that eventually
251. 00:13:25 impacts your products and you end up better products in the end and your how and what
252. 00:13:30 of everything just adds up a lot better.
253. 00:13:33 So I think once you get the why and you understand your methods behind that why it can have a
254. 00:13:39 big impact on your overall business strategy, which is kind of what our book for today is
255. 00:13:44 about is how do you go about building that business and continue to grow it.
256. 00:13:48 And I think we both likely had some opposing views of the book within ourselves.
257. 00:13:56 At least I did.
258. 00:13:57 It's like I both loved it and hated it at the same time.
259. 00:14:00 Anyway, the innovators dilemma is what I'm talking about.
260. 00:14:03 And this was my choice.
261. 00:14:04 And this is by Clay Christensen.
262. 00:14:08 And the ultimate reason that I picked this is that one of the business type things that
263. 00:14:14 I do is what I it's kind of like a business garden is what some of us call it who work
264. 00:14:21 together on this.
265. 00:14:22 But ultimately some of the stuff that I do as a business is I hunt down new technologies
266. 00:14:27 and I turn it into a business in itself.
267. 00:14:30 And then we turn around and license or sell that to a larger corporation or something.
268. 00:14:35 And I knew that there's a lot of rationale on how you go about picking new technology
269. 00:14:42 to turn into a business.
270. 00:14:43 And I know the way I just described that it's very vague.
271. 00:14:46 It's very nebulous, hard to understand.
272. 00:14:49 It's very hard to explain until you sit down and talk through it in detail and in order
273. 00:14:53 for it to be successful.
274. 00:14:55 There's a lot of things I'm not going to say.
275. 00:14:56 So it's just the way it works.
276. 00:14:58 But I knew that the innovators dilemma talked a lot about how new technology can impact
277. 00:15:07 existing companies.
278. 00:15:08 And I was very curious as to what Clayton talked about in the rationale behind those two.
279. 00:15:16 And this book has been a bestseller for quite a while.
280. 00:15:19 And to me it seemed like one that would really change the way that I go about selecting new
281. 00:15:25 technology to turn into business.
282. 00:15:27 And that's partly why I wanted to pick it just because I was looking for a little bit
283. 00:15:31 of guidance and how that comes about.
284. 00:15:33 Not to have another philosophical rationale behind a book, Mike, but it's just kind of
285. 00:15:40 my thought process.
286. 00:15:41 So there it goes.
287. 00:15:42 Was this one on your list beforehand?
288. 00:15:45 Was this one I introduced to you?
289. 00:15:46 No, this is definitely one that you introduced to me.
290. 00:15:49 And actually this is one that I almost gave up on.
291. 00:15:53 I almost texted you like halfway through that first section.
292. 00:15:58 Yep.
293. 00:15:59 I was like, Joe, I just can't do this.
294. 00:16:00 Yep.
295. 00:16:01 I completely understand.
296. 00:16:02 And it starts off, well, first of all, I went and ordered it off of Amazon.
297. 00:16:08 And when I searched for it, it said there's a newer version available.
298. 00:16:10 So I click on the newer version.
299. 00:16:11 Yep.
300. 00:16:12 And I ordered the newer version from Amazon.
301. 00:16:15 And it comes and the newer version is copyright 2000.
302. 00:16:20 Mm-hmm.
303. 00:16:21 Okay.
304. 00:16:22 So yours is the same way.
305. 00:16:24 I'm checking it to see which one I grabbed.
306. 00:16:26 I thought I had the newer one.
307. 00:16:28 Da-da-da-da.
308. 00:16:29 Yes, 2000.
309. 00:16:30 Okay.
310. 00:16:31 So my initial thought was maybe they sent me the older version.
311. 00:16:35 Mm-hmm.
312. 00:16:36 And because with updated examples, this is probably a totally different book.
313. 00:16:41 Yes.
314. 00:16:42 He starts off the very first chapter.
315. 00:16:44 And really the one where he's trying to lay out all of the groundwork for all of his
316. 00:16:49 arguments going forward is where he's talking about the disk drive industry.
317. 00:16:56 And it goes up until present day when he wrote it, which was 2000, which was over 15 years
318. 00:17:03 ago.
319. 00:17:04 So he's talking about in the future, flash storage is going to be maybe a disruptive
320. 00:17:11 technology.
321. 00:17:12 And I'm like, "Ugh, yes, yes, it is."
322. 00:17:15 Flash is old.
323. 00:17:16 Yeah.
324. 00:17:17 But if you can get past that first section, it's a very, it's a very, I don't want to say
325. 00:17:24 interesting read because when I read it, I felt like I was back in business school.
326. 00:17:29 Like this is read to me like a textbook.
327. 00:17:31 But what I found is that while a lot of his language and I didn't really relate to, there
328. 00:17:39 were definitely a lot of things that he said that jumped out at me.
329. 00:17:45 And so he would go for pages and pages about disk drives and then he would say one thing
330. 00:17:50 that really grabbed my attention and it would spur other thoughts kind of based off of the
331. 00:17:58 concepts that he was teaching.
332. 00:18:00 So I put some of them in the show notes, which we can talk about.
333. 00:18:05 But you want to start, I know the first thing you put down was the sustaining and disruptive
334. 00:18:09 technologies.
335. 00:18:10 Yeah.
336. 00:18:11 Before you go there, one, I looked it up.
337. 00:18:15 It's the first half of the book.
338. 00:18:17 It's literally half the book that he takes to go through the disk drive industry and then
339. 00:18:22 he also gets into excavators.
340. 00:18:24 So if you're familiar with dirt movers, I'm a farm boy.
341. 00:18:31 So I'm sitting here thinking, okay, so track hose bulldozers, that's the type of thing I
342. 00:18:34 immediately think of.
343. 00:18:35 But I understand that terminology doesn't make sense to a lot of people.
344. 00:18:39 Suffice it to say, machinery that moves dirt and he talks about these in way more detail,
345. 00:18:48 I think, than is necessary.
346. 00:18:50 And I'm one that I like to read about.
347. 00:18:55 Like I will read peer reviewed journal articles.
348. 00:18:57 Like I am weird in the fact that I like reading those.
349. 00:19:01 So I'm used to reading a lot of highly technical articles and text and this is a lot like that.
350. 00:19:11 But it's so in depth and so long and so continuous in a lot of that same topic that I'm just
351. 00:19:21 sitting here like, you got to be kidding me.
352. 00:19:22 Are you done with this yet?
353. 00:19:24 Can we go on to the next?
354. 00:19:26 And there was so much detail that he provided that I felt like was just completely unnecessary.
355. 00:19:32 And I understand he's trying to show every aspect of it so that you can get as much of
356. 00:19:38 a picture of this industry as you can.
357. 00:19:40 But I did not pick up history of disk drives.
358. 00:19:43 I picked up innovators dilemma.
359. 00:19:48 And I think I could explain to you every disk drive the year and the companies involved
360. 00:19:53 with it in way more detail than I ever need to be able to.
361. 00:19:56 So that part just about I'm with you at about killed me going through that first half.
362. 00:20:03 But to your point, there were a lot of areas where you'd go through some we're talking
363. 00:20:08 about Seagate and all the different drives that they came up with the five and a quarter
364. 00:20:12 inch like all these things that they're talking about that he's talking about.
365. 00:20:17 And then he would try to summarize what happened and it's like, okay, that summary I get is
366. 00:20:21 there a way to search and pull out all those summaries?
367. 00:20:23 Like I really just wanted those bits and they were only like a paragraph long and you'd
368. 00:20:28 have five or six pages explaining the industry and then a paragraph that summarized the part
369. 00:20:32 that you are actually interested in, it seemed like.
370. 00:20:35 At least that's my perspective on it.
371. 00:20:37 But I think that belaboring it at this point.
372. 00:20:41 Well I actually related more to some of the historical examples that he had because at
373. 00:20:46 least then it was kind of through the lens of this happened a long time ago and you probably
374. 00:20:52 aren't familiar with everything that happened and this is why things happened.
375. 00:20:57 But the whole disk drive discussion at the front was kind of like this is what's happening
376. 00:21:02 right now and this is what maybe is happening behind the scenes right now.
377. 00:21:07 And because it's a technological discussion, it just seems totally out of place.
378. 00:21:12 And that's why I kind of think that if there was a 2015 or 2016 version of this book,
379. 00:21:18 he used different examples, it would be much more engaging and I would have hooked onto
380. 00:21:24 it a lot sooner.
381. 00:21:26 But I got over that and if you look at the sources, I mean this thing is dense.
382. 00:21:31 A lot of the stuff that he included in the chapters, he's written long papers on that
383. 00:21:37 specific thing and that's why he's able to talk with such detail about any of these
384. 00:21:42 different industries.
385. 00:21:43 It was just hard for me to grasp onto the disk drive one in particular at the beginning.
386. 00:21:48 But the points that he made were really good and I really do like the whole idea behind
387. 00:21:56 why do some companies grab onto this disruptive technology and why do some not.
388. 00:22:04 And actually the disk drive, the main thing I got from that whole disk drive discussion
389. 00:22:10 was that the firms that identified the disruptive technology were usually the ones who were
390. 00:22:17 established.
391. 00:22:18 But they were also the ones who didn't do anything with it.
392. 00:22:23 I thought that was really interesting.
393. 00:22:26 It's got six different steps that kind of goes through.
394. 00:22:31 Step one, disruptive technologies are first developed within those established firms.
395. 00:22:36 Step two, marketing personnel then sought reactions from their lead customers and that's
396. 00:22:40 really where things start to fall apart because those lead customers, they are not looking
397. 00:22:44 at it through a disruptive lens.
398. 00:22:46 But then step three, establish firms, step up the pace of sustaining technological development.
399. 00:22:52 Step four, new companies are formed.
400. 00:22:54 Markets for those disruptive technologies were found through trial and error and that's
401. 00:22:58 where looking at how the users are using the technology comes in.
402. 00:23:03 Step five, the entrance then moved up market and then step six, established firms, belatedly
403. 00:23:07 jumped on the bandwagon to defend their customer base.
404. 00:23:10 This was really interesting.
405. 00:23:12 And he talked about a couple different examples like the steel industry where companies entered
406. 00:23:17 on the low end of the market and the established firms didn't even give them notice because
407. 00:23:22 they're like, oh, you can have that part of the market.
408. 00:23:24 It's so unprofitable.
409. 00:23:25 We want nothing to do with that.
410. 00:23:28 And then from there, they were able to move up and capture the rest of the higher end
411. 00:23:33 market that those established firms were really coveting.
412. 00:23:37 And then eventually a lot of those established firms disappear.
413. 00:23:40 Yeah, I think if you if you try to define what the dilemma itself is and before we go
414. 00:23:46 too far, I should probably define sustaining versus disruptive tech.
415. 00:23:50 But the difference there is that a sustaining technology, if you think about it, let's just
416. 00:23:56 use Apple as an example, most people who are going to listen to this, it seems like
417. 00:23:59 understand Apple.
418. 00:24:01 If you take like the iPhone, they every year come out with a new version of it.
419. 00:24:06 Well, that would be a sustaining technology.
420. 00:24:08 They're constantly iterating on an existing product.
421. 00:24:11 But if you take something like a disruptive technology, that would be say the iPhone when
422. 00:24:16 it was first introduced because touch screens and handheld phones and internet communications
423. 00:24:22 device.
424. 00:24:23 And then there are different types of things didn't exist.
425. 00:24:27 Like it wasn't possible for you to walk around with that.
426. 00:24:28 So in that particular case, the same iPhone was a disruptive technology.
427. 00:24:33 And that's part of what he's getting at here is when a new tech comes into a market, people
428. 00:24:39 don't always understand what its use is and like the market may not exist for it.
429. 00:24:43 I think of like the iPad when it first came out, you know, how many people said it's an
430. 00:24:48 iPhone on steroids?
431. 00:24:49 You know, I said that.
432. 00:24:50 It's like, okay, it's just a big iPhone.
433. 00:24:53 Well, that's partly because no one understood how to use it.
434. 00:24:57 And the market for it was tiny in comparison to what it could be as we look at it today.
435. 00:25:02 And this is I think what we're getting at with if this was a newer book, you'd see some
436. 00:25:05 of those types of examples as opposed to, you know, a 14 inch drive versus an eight inch
437. 00:25:10 drive.
438. 00:25:11 I don't, okay.
439. 00:25:13 Why are we talking about mainframes?
440. 00:25:14 I don't get it.
441. 00:25:15 So, you know, that it just makes it a bit of a challenge.
442. 00:25:18 But if you get the difference there between the sustaining, you know, the iteration style
443. 00:25:24 changes and innovations versus a disruptive innovation that doesn't have a market, but
444. 00:25:30 that market builds over time.
445. 00:25:32 And the problem and the dilemma here is that an existing company tends to focus on building
446. 00:25:37 out sustaining technology because that's their current customer base.
447. 00:25:42 They know the market for it and they're trying to meet that market and consistently make that
448. 00:25:45 market better.
449. 00:25:47 When you have a disruptive tech come along, the market is so small for it or non-existent
450. 00:25:52 or you don't even know what it is that there's no way a current company wants to try at
451. 00:25:58 that simply because there's no way it's going to meet their current customer and their current
452. 00:26:04 market because it takes a lot more revenue to continue to help them grow.
453. 00:26:09 You know, one of the things he brings up is that if you have, say, a $10 billion company
454. 00:26:14 in order for them to have a 10% growth, they need to come up with a billion dollars in
455. 00:26:19 new sales.
456. 00:26:20 Whereas if you have a, like, it takes a $10 million business, well, their 10% growth is
457. 00:26:26 a million dollars in new business.
458. 00:26:29 Well, the difference between those two, you know, the size of market and the size of customer
459. 00:26:34 that you're shooting for is drastically different and the size of a new product is drastically
460. 00:26:39 different between those two.
461. 00:26:40 A bigger existing $10 billion company has zero interest in a million dollar technology.
462. 00:26:46 They're looking for something way bigger than that.
463. 00:26:48 I'm rambling.
464. 00:26:49 Does this all make sense?
465. 00:26:50 It makes perfect sense.
466. 00:26:52 And you brought up Apple, so let me extrapolate on that a little bit because one of the things
467. 00:26:59 that I thought of a more recent technology-based example based off of current events as of when
468. 00:27:05 we are recording this.
469. 00:27:07 I think it was maybe a week or two ago that Blackberry officially announced that they
470. 00:27:13 are no longer making hardware.
471. 00:27:15 Yeah.
472. 00:27:16 Which basically is the death of research in motion as a company.
473. 00:27:22 So I dug this up.
474. 00:27:26 This is a, and I'll post this in the chat here so you can put it in the show notes.
475. 00:27:32 This is a blog post from 2010 from research and emotion responding to Apple's distortion
476. 00:27:38 field.
477. 00:27:39 And this is a quote from the co-CEO.
478. 00:27:43 He says, "For those of us who live outside of Apple's distortion field, we know that
479. 00:27:47 seven inch tablets will actually be a big portion of the market.
480. 00:27:49 And we know that Adobe Flash support actually matters to customers who want a real web experience.
481. 00:27:55 We also know that while Apple's attempt to control the ecosystem and maintain a closed
482. 00:27:58 platform may be good for Apple, developers want more options and customers want to fully
483. 00:28:02 access the overwhelming majority of websites that use Flash.
484. 00:28:07 And it goes on to cite that research in motion sold.
485. 00:28:13 They have record shipments for five consecutive quarters recently shared guidance of 13.8
486. 00:28:18 to 14.4 million Blackberry smartphones for the current quarter.
487. 00:28:21 Then they bash Apple for shipping 8.4 million devices in the prior quarter.
488. 00:28:25 And they say that was probably padded by unfulfilled Q3 customer demanded channel orders.
489. 00:28:30 And then it's the last sentence as usual whether the subject is antennas, flash or shipments.
490. 00:28:34 There is more to the story and sooner or later even people inside the distortion field will
491. 00:28:37 begin to resent being told half a story.
492. 00:28:41 And I thought this was interesting because there was a quote in the book that triggered
493. 00:28:45 this thought pattern for me.
494. 00:28:47 He said, "Firms failed when a technological change destroyed the value of competencies
495. 00:28:52 previously cultivated and succeeded when new technologies enhanced them."
496. 00:28:57 And Blackberry had a very established market and they kind of built their whole business
497. 00:29:05 model on the fact that we have enterprise users who traditionally pay more for the technology
498. 00:29:11 and they need a physical keyboard.
499. 00:29:16 And Apple basically said, "No, you don't need a physical keyboard.
500. 00:29:19 There's a better way to do that."
501. 00:29:20 And they had all of the data to support their position.
502. 00:29:25 This is a classic example of what I think Clayton Christians is talking about in the
503. 00:29:29 innovators dilemma where they tested it with their users.
504. 00:29:32 Their users all said, "Oh no, we hate this.
505. 00:29:34 We need to be able to feel the keys."
506. 00:29:36 Well, that's great.
507. 00:29:37 But enterprise users aren't going to be the global smartphone market in the future.
508. 00:29:42 And Apple really, I mean, it's undeniable that they hit the nail on the head with the
509. 00:29:46 iPhone.
510. 00:29:47 They're a successful product in the company history and the company, I think, was recently
511. 00:29:51 named the most valuable company in the world.
512. 00:29:54 So whether you like Apple or not, you cannot dispute the fact that they embraced a disruptive
513. 00:29:59 technology.
514. 00:30:00 What is interesting to me, though, is what Apple does from here because there are a lot
515. 00:30:04 of people who are looking at this through the classic management lens.
516. 00:30:08 They're saying, "Oh, well, the Apple Watch is a failure.
517. 00:30:10 They only sold so many units."
518. 00:30:12 But in their last keynote, they shared a statistic that said they are the number two in the list
519. 00:30:18 of most profitable watchmakers in the entire world behind only Rolex, I believe.
520. 00:30:25 So from a disruptive technology perspective, they are successful.
521. 00:30:30 And that is the spin that they are putting on it.
522. 00:30:31 Now, whether they actually believe that internally, it kind of remains to be seen.
523. 00:30:37 But I think that's one of the things that Apple's been very good at is even though they've grown
524. 00:30:40 as a company, they have maintained the ability to embrace these disruptive technologies.
525. 00:30:48 And it's interesting to see very recently how research and motion was not able to do
526. 00:30:54 that.
527. 00:30:55 There's another article here which I'll share via Skype.
528. 00:30:59 This is John Gruber's take on the BlackBerry article.
529. 00:31:03 Oh, yeah.
530. 00:31:04 I think I saw this.
531. 00:31:05 It was what 2008 that he shared with this.
532. 00:31:07 Yeah, exactly.
533. 00:31:08 Right.
534. 00:31:09 But then he linked to this recently with this quote right here.
535. 00:31:14 He said, "Blackberry was good at making computer-like gadgets.
536. 00:31:17 The iPhone was a gadget-like computer.
537. 00:31:19 If you could see that difference and had a sense for just how difficult it would be for
538. 00:31:23 BlackBerry to gain expertise in computing hardware and software, in particular creating
539. 00:31:28 a platform for apps, you could see just how much trouble they were in even though they
540. 00:31:32 had a handful of GoGo sales years ahead of them."
541. 00:31:36 Very, very interesting, very, very recent technological example.
542. 00:31:40 That's the, I guess, the 2016 version of the disk drive analysis.
543. 00:31:44 I think BlackBerry is one that follows a very common pattern though in this case because
544. 00:31:50 I don't know how many businesses I've either consulted with or worked for and whenever
545. 00:31:54 they want to come up with something new and something revolutionary, they pull their customers.
546. 00:31:59 And let's figure out what do our customers want and we'll take all the data from them
547. 00:32:03 and we'll make the perfect thing.
548. 00:32:06 The perfect widget of some kind.
549. 00:32:08 This is a classic case.
550. 00:32:09 So BlackBerry went through and they pulled all of their customers and they figured out
551. 00:32:14 everybody loves physical keyboards.
552. 00:32:17 Well, here's my question.
553. 00:32:19 In that particular case, that particular scenario, how on earth is a group of business phone
554. 00:32:27 users, how are they supposed to know that a touchscreen, you can learn how to use it
555. 00:32:32 and it does just as well?
556. 00:32:34 How are they even able to comprehend that?
557. 00:32:37 And I think that's where Apple stepped in and said, "This is a better experience from
558. 00:32:42 a human user interface type scenario.
559. 00:32:47 This is a better experience.
560. 00:32:49 You've never used it before.
561. 00:32:51 It'll be painful at first, but you'll understand it in the long run."
562. 00:32:53 You know, think, look at the iPhone 7 with them getting rid of the headphone jack.
563. 00:32:58 How many people are throwing a fit over that?
564. 00:33:01 Well, honestly, I don't get it.
565. 00:33:04 I mean, so many of us use Bluetooth headphones anymore.
566. 00:33:07 I think a lot of us, if you're on the cutting edge of things like that, if you stop and
567. 00:33:12 look at how many times you actually use that jack, it's pretty rare.
568. 00:33:17 I had to plug in.
569. 00:33:18 Here's an example.
570. 00:33:19 So I'm still on a success currently.
571. 00:33:21 So I do not have a 7, but I still, I plugged in a set of headphones to make a phone call.
572. 00:33:28 This is about a week ago and I kept getting static from it.
573. 00:33:32 It just wasn't working out.
574. 00:33:33 So I eventually just pulled out the headphones and used it as a headset as a handheld in
575. 00:33:38 that case.
576. 00:33:39 And afterwards, I got to look at it as like, "Man, that's really weird."
577. 00:33:43 I had so much lint and stuff built up in that jack because it's never used that there's
578. 00:33:50 no way anything would work.
579. 00:33:52 So it was just a case of, "Huh, well, I guess I don't actually use that even though
580. 00:33:57 I have it.
581. 00:33:58 I just don't use it as much as you would think."
582. 00:34:00 And I think whenever Apple does things like that, like they get rid of the headphone
583. 00:34:05 jack, it makes a lot of people angry up front.
584. 00:34:08 But Apple is in the business of disruptive technology.
585. 00:34:12 That's what they do.
586. 00:34:13 They understand that if you just get caught and consistently making one thing a little
587. 00:34:17 bit better each time, that's not where things land in the long run.
588. 00:34:21 And if you look at that particular case, yes, it's disruptive to get rid of that jack.
589. 00:34:26 Is it technically a disruptive technology?
590. 00:34:29 Probably not.
591. 00:34:30 It probably falls into a sustaining world.
592. 00:34:33 But what might be disruptive is the secondary thing of that wireless chip that they put
593. 00:34:37 in it because that could change the way that we have wireless devices to overcome the Bluetooth
594. 00:34:44 process.
595. 00:34:45 So that might be maybe not in the realm of an iPhone, but in the realm of wireless connectivity.
596. 00:34:53 That wireless chip might be the thing that finally topples the Bluetooth world because
597. 00:34:58 Bluetooth's been around for how long now?
598. 00:35:00 But that might be where that goes.
599. 00:35:03 And this is the thing that Apple's good at is they're okay taking the risks and dealing
600. 00:35:07 with a little bit of heartache up front because they know that they can introduce something
601. 00:35:11 and then let it grow over time.
602. 00:35:12 And they're okay with that.
603. 00:35:14 And this is a case where Blackberry says, "No, flash is going to be a big thing."
604. 00:35:18 And everybody wants an actual keyboard.
605. 00:35:20 It's like, "Well, that's fine, but your days are numbered because the rest of the world
606. 00:35:25 thinks differently, but they couldn't see it at the time because they were so focused
607. 00:35:30 on meeting their current customers.
608. 00:35:31 And that will almost always bite you if you're trying to do something revolutionary in your
609. 00:35:35 own industry."
610. 00:35:36 Right.
611. 00:35:37 You are limited to, your perspective is limited by your value network.
612. 00:35:42 And Clayton Christensen defines value network as the context within which a firm identifies
613. 00:35:47 in response to customers needs, solves problems, procures input, reacts to competitors and
614. 00:35:52 strives for profit.
615. 00:35:53 And that's the interesting thing to me about Apple is not that they are currently the big
616. 00:36:00 kid on the block, but how have they been able to maintain that?
617. 00:36:06 Everything Clayton Christensen talks about inside the book, the problems with the large
618. 00:36:10 organizations.
619. 00:36:13 Apple has to deal with those, but somehow they're still able to embrace those disruptive
620. 00:36:18 technologies, and I think it's probably a little bit too early to say that the Apple
621. 00:36:22 Watch or any particular product has really been a success or a failure since the iPhone,
622. 00:36:29 which really completely changed the company's trajectory historically.
623. 00:36:34 But it seems to me that they've somehow been able to navigate this where a lot of other
624. 00:36:40 firms have not.
625. 00:36:41 And there's example after example after example in this particular book.
626. 00:36:48 And it's because those established firms, they didn't fail to see the technology, but
627. 00:36:53 they failed to recognize its importance.
628. 00:36:55 I don't know what the secret is to always being able to correctly identify whether something
629. 00:37:03 is important.
630. 00:37:05 But I think that part of it is probably instead of asking your current customers what their
631. 00:37:11 thoughts are on a particular technology, being able to see the larger picture, the larger
632. 00:37:18 market from the very low end to the very high end of all the potential users of this technology
633. 00:37:25 really being able to identify from those people whether this meets a specific need that they
634. 00:37:31 have.
635. 00:37:32 Well, here's how I think about Apple.
636. 00:37:35 They don't build, they do build specific products.
637. 00:37:39 You can't deny that.
638. 00:37:41 However, that's not their main goal.
639. 00:37:44 At least to me it doesn't seem to be that their ultimate goal is to build an ecosystem.
640. 00:37:48 So you have a Mac or you have an iPhone, you have an iPad, everything works together and
641. 00:37:52 they all integrate with each other.
642. 00:37:54 That's what they're trying to do.
643. 00:37:57 Your Apple Watch talks directly to your iPhone.
644. 00:38:00 I'm assuming I don't have one.
645. 00:38:01 So from what I know, I'm going to say yes, they connect.
646. 00:38:05 They build this cohesive technological world and they build things to allow other things
647. 00:38:13 to connect to it.
648. 00:38:15 And every time they enter a new, what we're calling a disruptive technology, whenever they're
649. 00:38:21 doing that, it's not to them, it's not any different than what they have done in the past.
650. 00:38:25 It's still an integrated technology that builds on their current infrastructure.
651. 00:38:30 It's just a different way and a different sector of integrating with that central hub.
652. 00:38:37 To me, that's how I tend to look at it.
653. 00:38:39 So yes, we can say that Apple somehow navigates disruptive technology, but their business is
654. 00:38:46 disruptive technology.
655. 00:38:47 So their entire supply chain and their entire product line is designed around a consistent
656. 00:38:55 world that is disruptive, but it's not disruptive within their own realm.
657. 00:39:01 It's only disruptive to the realm that they decide to interact with.
658. 00:39:05 The rumors about an Apple car.
659. 00:39:07 There's a good chance that the way that they tend to do things, that they're thinking about
660. 00:39:11 it outside the normal realm, like what Tesla did.
661. 00:39:15 Let's think about autonomous cars in a way that people haven't really thought about before.
662. 00:39:19 And that's how they come at it.
663. 00:39:20 I would assume Apple is going to do something similar where they decide to enter a new realm
664. 00:39:26 and it's disruptive to that realm, but it's not disruptive to them.
665. 00:39:31 To me, it seems like if you're going to have something that's disruptive to them, it has
666. 00:39:34 to come outside of them.
667. 00:39:36 Was it yesterday that made by Google deal as we're recording this?
668. 00:39:41 There were some things in that that may challenge Apple, in my view, and potentially disrupt
669. 00:39:47 them.
670. 00:39:48 I think it's difficult.
671. 00:39:52 It's hard to get your head around it because Apple has this own weird way of making their
672. 00:39:57 entire business nothing but disruptive technology.
673. 00:40:00 Then once they introduce one that's disruptive, then they build off of it.
674. 00:40:04 It's only disruptive to the outside sector, not to themselves.
675. 00:40:08 Does that make any sense?
676. 00:40:09 Is that completely off my rocker?
677. 00:40:12 No, I think it makes sense.
678. 00:40:14 What's interesting to me is what does Google do when the services or the ecosystem that
679. 00:40:21 they're building is not the next big thing anymore.
680. 00:40:27 Tim Cook recently made a comment about how virtual reality is interesting, but he doesn't
681. 00:40:34 think that it's really that important.
682. 00:40:37 Augmented reality is much more in line.
683. 00:40:40 I forget exactly how he phrased it, but he said augmented reality was more in line with
684. 00:40:45 what Apple wanted to do in the future.
685. 00:40:48 There's an opportunity, I guess, if virtual reality really did become the next big thing
686. 00:40:52 where Apple could miss it.
687. 00:40:53 The car thing is another example, but I think that based off of the rumors that are floating
688. 00:41:00 around, it's interesting to see how Apple's navigating that as well.
689. 00:41:08 In the book, he actually talks about the last chapter is the electric cars case study, but
690. 00:41:12 he talks about how it's really not going to be any time in the near future because they
691. 00:41:16 can't meet the basic needs of the consumer.
692. 00:41:20 That's obviously changed a lot in the last 15 years.
693. 00:41:24 We can see that now Tesla is meeting those specific needs and there is actually demand
694. 00:41:29 for some of these things.
695. 00:41:30 It's going to be really interesting to see where that goes in the next couple of years.
696. 00:41:34 He also says that the very attributes that make disruptive technologies uncompetitive
697. 00:41:38 in mainstream markets actually count as positive attributes in their emerging value network.
698. 00:41:46 As this applies to an Apple car, I think this is really interesting because there's been
699. 00:41:49 a lot of rumors recently about how they've kind of refocused the whole car initiative.
700. 00:41:59 Depending on who you listen to in terms of the rumors, they've pivoted again, all rumors,
701. 00:42:04 completely speculative.
702. 00:42:05 Please don't take this with a grain of salt.
703. 00:42:08 The rumor has it that they were focusing on building an electric car and now they are
704. 00:42:13 more interested in a service, kind of like an Uber type service.
705. 00:42:17 Maybe they're developing the cars that a service like Uber would typically use.
706. 00:42:21 I could see being a really interesting example of how we were looking at this through our
707. 00:42:25 old value network, we're building this ecosystem for an individual who buys all of our products
708. 00:42:30 and in that particular instance, a really, really expensive Apple car because Apple stuff
709. 00:42:34 is always really, really expensive.
710. 00:42:37 Maybe fails because it doesn't provide enough value over the traditional gasoline cars or
711. 00:42:42 even Tesla.
712. 00:42:43 I have no idea what price point Apple could make an electric car available at.
713. 00:42:49 When you think about it through this emerging value network, whether it's Apple or whether
714. 00:42:55 it's Tesla, whoever it is, there's been a lot of rumors about how different services,
715. 00:43:01 different companies are doing research on this whole automated fleet.
716. 00:43:07 I think there is definitely a place in our future where you call a car, a driverless
717. 00:43:13 car picks you up, takes you where you want to go and then drives away.
718. 00:43:17 Then it's just on call until the next person calls it.
719. 00:43:20 If that car is an electric car, how much more sustainable is that sort of company?
720. 00:43:26 Yes, but at the same time, I really, really like an old 72 Chevy with 350 big block in
721. 00:43:36 it.
722. 00:43:37 Come on.
723. 00:43:38 Right.
724. 00:43:39 But this really comes back to the buying hierarchy that he outlines where you start off functionality.
725. 00:43:48 Does this electric car, does this service provide the same functionality that your 72
726. 00:43:53 Chevy does?
727. 00:43:55 Then does it provide the same in terms of reliability?
728. 00:43:59 Does it provide the same in terms of convenience?
729. 00:44:01 If you are the same on all of those levels, then what's left is to differentiate based
730. 00:44:07 on price.
731. 00:44:09 I think it's too early in that particular market to say that these are functionally equivalent.
732. 00:44:15 Who knows how close we are to being functionally equivalent there?
733. 00:44:20 I think there's probably a lot of work that needs to be done.
734. 00:44:23 There's also a lot of public, what's the word?
735. 00:44:28 There's a lot of public image about the danger of a driverless car, especially when stuff
736. 00:44:33 like the, I mean, I would never do this.
737. 00:44:37 But there was a news story about the guy who was watching Harry Potter on his iPad and
738. 00:44:40 his Tesla drove underneath a semi and obviously he died.
739. 00:44:44 Well, I mean, idiots like that, where you like to completely take your eyes off the road
740. 00:44:49 when you know that this technology is new, that is going to leave a very negative, very
741. 00:44:57 bad taste in a lot of people's mouths.
742. 00:44:59 That's going to definitely influence public opinion in this particular area.
743. 00:45:03 It's going to be hard for automated, I don't know what the term is.
744. 00:45:09 I'm talking about stuff I don't really understand.
745. 00:45:11 The driverless cars, it's going to be hard for them to overcome that public opinion.
746. 00:45:17 The autonomous cars, that's what you're trying to say.
747. 00:45:20 Sure, yeah, that sounds better.
748. 00:45:21 But see, at the same time, okay, so I come from agriculture and we have had in agriculture,
749. 00:45:27 we have had self-driving tractors for well over a decade at this point.
750. 00:45:34 They're not, they are far from driverless, but you can sit down on a tractor today and
751. 00:45:40 you've been able to do this for a long time and turn on the computer and set what we call
752. 00:45:45 an AB line, go set a point on one side of the field, drive to the other side, set another
753. 00:45:50 point and then hit go and it will drive you back and forth and it will follow that line.
754. 00:45:55 And it can get way more sophisticated than that.
755. 00:45:58 But I can tell you that driving those, running a planner, running whatever, if you run those
756. 00:46:05 for an hour, so not long.
757. 00:46:08 In the scheme of running a planner, because you can run it 16 hours a day or in some cases,
758. 00:46:12 18 hours a day every day for four or five weeks in a row, you do that enough and you
759. 00:46:18 just don't pay attention.
760. 00:46:19 You wait for the alarm to go off when you get to the other end of the field, you pick
761. 00:46:22 up the planner, you spin it around and you go back and you do it again.
762. 00:46:25 And I know some guys who take naps while they're planting.
763. 00:46:29 The fields are long enough, they go around, they hit their button and then they take a
764. 00:46:32 nap until they get to the other end of the field and it sets off the alarm and they do
765. 00:46:35 it again.
766. 00:46:36 Well, what happens if that thing loses a signal?
767. 00:46:39 Any more, it'll set off an alarm, but they didn't use to.
768. 00:46:44 If you want to have an interesting bout on Google or even on YouTube, just type in "autoste"
769. 00:46:50 or "gone wrong".
770. 00:46:53 You will see when these things have either shut off or wouldn't turn off, there are all
771. 00:46:58 kinds of scenarios when this stuff happens.
772. 00:47:01 That stuff only really happens when you get so comfortable with it that you just stop
773. 00:47:08 paying attention.
774. 00:47:09 And I think it's something like a Tesla or an autonomous car.
775. 00:47:13 Part of the issue and part of the public opinion and issues that they're going to have to
776. 00:47:17 overcome with that is that in today's world, if you have an accident, it's somebody's fault.
777. 00:47:23 Somebody made a mistake.
778. 00:47:24 It's an error in judgment in some form.
779. 00:47:28 With an autonomous car, if everybody's in an autonomous car and there's an accident, that's
780. 00:47:36 a hardware or software issue.
781. 00:47:39 That's not a person's mistake.
782. 00:47:42 That is a, in this case, a robot's mistake.
783. 00:47:45 So who do you get upset about?
784. 00:47:49 If there's an accident, you get upset at the person who caused it.
785. 00:47:51 If a robot wrecks a car and kills somebody, what do you do about it?
786. 00:47:58 What are the ramifications of that?
787. 00:48:00 Now we're going down a rabbit trail here, but-
788. 00:48:01 Who do you blame?
789. 00:48:03 Yeah, yeah.
790. 00:48:04 We like to blame people.
791. 00:48:06 Look at how easy it is to have people get offended right now.
792. 00:48:09 We like to blame people and say it's someone else's fault.
793. 00:48:13 If you have something like a driverless car that an accident is going to happen within,
794. 00:48:20 who do you blame for it?
795. 00:48:21 What do you do about it?
796. 00:48:22 And that's some of the public opinion that's going to be challenged through that.
797. 00:48:26 That's a lot of the outcry that's come from that Tesla accident.
798. 00:48:29 Even though, if you look at miles driven versus accidents that happen, the Tesla car is within
799. 00:48:36 what I'll call it auto steer.
800. 00:48:38 There's a name for it.
801. 00:48:39 I can't tell you what it is.
802. 00:48:41 But if you're in a car and it's, if you're in a Tesla and it's driving on its own, it's
803. 00:48:49 actually safer than if you were driving on, you know, if you were using your own judgment
804. 00:48:53 to drive that car.
805. 00:48:54 It is safer and it's tough to argue that.
806. 00:48:57 Well, what do you do when it makes a mistake?
807. 00:49:01 It's not going to be perfect.
808. 00:49:03 Right.
809. 00:49:05 And that's where obviously what the customer wants comes into play.
810. 00:49:13 And that was a really interesting section of the book where he talked about discoveries
811. 00:49:18 come from watching people use your product.
812. 00:49:21 He had an example in there with the Hondo motorbikes.
813. 00:49:24 I forget what the name of it was.
814. 00:49:26 Super Cub.
815. 00:49:27 Yeah.
816. 00:49:28 Yeah.
817. 00:49:29 Where they brought these over to the US.
818. 00:49:31 I'm a red naked heart.
819. 00:49:34 They brought these over and they were trying to sell them against Harley's basically and
820. 00:49:39 nobody would buy them.
821. 00:49:41 Well, it wasn't the super cub that they brought over.
822. 00:49:43 It was they had, I forget what it was, but they had an actual, it was a bigger bike design
823. 00:49:48 to compete with them.
824. 00:49:49 Correct.
825. 00:49:50 Yeah.
826. 00:49:51 And then the customers didn't want or didn't trust the Hondo bikes though.
827. 00:49:57 And so the frustrated, you know, three people who came over and were living in California
828. 00:50:01 brought their super cubs up to the mountains, I think, and were driving around people like,
829. 00:50:05 hey, that's pretty cool.
830. 00:50:07 Where can I get one of those?
831. 00:50:08 Because it was a recreational thing.
832. 00:50:10 It wasn't a transportation vehicle so much.
833. 00:50:16 It was more entertainment or fun and they created a market there which they never could have
834. 00:50:25 guessed.
835. 00:50:27 And I think that that's a really important distinction.
836. 00:50:30 He talks about plans to learn versus plans to execute.
837. 00:50:35 Big firms, at least in the book from what he was saying, they have a plan to execute
838. 00:50:41 based on meeting the needs of their specific customers.
839. 00:50:44 And he used example after example of that, the steel industry was another example where
840. 00:50:49 he talked about how people didn't want this lower quality steel.
841. 00:50:53 There were some customers who were okay with the real low, real thin sheet metal.
842. 00:50:58 And I don't remember these specific terms that he was using there, but there was basically
843. 00:51:03 really thin sheet metal that only a few specific use cases for it were existed.
844. 00:51:11 But the entrance into the market were okay making this type of metal because it was
845. 00:51:18 okay if it had a bunch of impurities in it.
846. 00:51:20 So you're talking about rebar?
847. 00:51:22 Yes.
848. 00:51:23 The rebar is it.
849. 00:51:26 So farm kid, I researched this stuff.
850. 00:51:28 Okay, so anyway, rebar is at the bottom of the market because no one cares what's in
851. 00:51:31 it.
852. 00:51:32 Top level of steel industry is going to be sheet metal because it has to be extremely
853. 00:51:37 smooth and pure.
854. 00:51:39 And then you've got all this stuff in between.
855. 00:51:40 So the entrance we're interested in the rebar world.
856. 00:51:43 Correct, yeah.
857. 00:51:44 And so they entered in the rebar world.
858. 00:51:48 And then from there they improved their process as they saw other adjacent market segments
859. 00:51:54 I guess.
860. 00:51:56 Other places where they could sell what they had.
861. 00:52:01 And that led to them refining the process, refining the process, refining the process
862. 00:52:05 until eventually they had a product that competed with the really, really pure sheet metal that
863. 00:52:10 the premium firms were so focused on.
864. 00:52:15 And then at that point a lot of those firms went out of business because at that point
865. 00:52:20 where the firms that entered at the rebar part of that market they had learned the ability
866. 00:52:27 to produce this higher quality metal but they could do it it they could do it cheaper.
867. 00:52:33 And so I think that there's a lot of markets that can be discovered that way where you
868. 00:52:38 enter in almost below the market that currently exists and then you just kind of try some
869. 00:52:44 things, figure some things out.
870. 00:52:45 Maybe you've only got like one or two places where this really is a fit.
871. 00:52:49 But then from there you can find a much wider market kind of through trial and error.
872. 00:52:55 This comes back to the general premise of fail fast.
873. 00:52:59 Yup.
874. 00:53:00 How many times do we hear about the best way to build a great business is to iterate and
875. 00:53:05 get through your failures quicker.
876. 00:53:07 And this is one of the things that Clayton brings up a few times with managers at bigger
877. 00:53:13 corporations because they just don't want to take the risk they don't want to risk having
878. 00:53:17 a failure on their record because it's going to hurt their career.
879. 00:53:21 You know I've seen that.
880. 00:53:22 Exactly.
881. 00:53:23 Like I don't want to take a chance on something because there's a good chance it's going to
882. 00:53:25 hurt me from only it's going to keep me from getting a promotion that I'm after.
883. 00:53:29 So I don't want that ding on my record.
884. 00:53:32 And if you're in a company like that and you want to take a risk on something you're
885. 00:53:36 not going to do it because there's a chance it's going to drop off and then you've got
886. 00:53:41 more issues on your hands.
887. 00:53:43 So you have to be okay with failure.
888. 00:53:45 The nice thing is that you know between you with Asian efficiency and a lot of what I do
889. 00:53:49 like if I pick up a new technology turn it into a business and it fails big whoop will
890. 00:53:54 scrap it and go on to the next one like that's just the way we do things and it's kind of
891. 00:54:00 the same with a lot of clients even with websites you know sometimes I'd have to build two or
892. 00:54:04 three different versions of a website before we can get the right one.
893. 00:54:08 Now granted it's expensive for them to do that but it's the process of okay let's get
894. 00:54:14 the things out there that we think might be a good idea.
895. 00:54:18 We're not real sure but we're going to give it a try and see how it pans out.
896. 00:54:21 So I think there's a lot of value you know you see this all over the place fail fast
897. 00:54:25 if you get through your failures quicker than the sooner you get to your successes.
898. 00:54:29 You have to be okay with that in order to hit on one of these disruptive technologies
899. 00:54:33 and a lot of people aren't willing to do that so it's a challenge.
900. 00:54:39 One of the cool strategies for doing that which I really liked in the book was the HP
901. 00:54:45 model where I said that the HP had developed laser printers which from a technological
902. 00:54:51 standpoint laser printers are way way way better than inkjet printers.
903. 00:54:57 They can print faster they can print more precise or at least when he wrote the book
904. 00:55:01 anyways.
905. 00:55:03 I got admit I haven't followed the printer industry.
906. 00:55:05 I have no idea I don't even know under printer.
907. 00:55:08 But he said that HP created a separate company to develop the inkjet printers and they've
908. 00:55:15 competed against the company that developed the laser printers.
909. 00:55:19 What they found was that while the inkjet printers were not as good as the laser printers
910. 00:55:24 they could create them much more efficiently much more cost effectively and so there
911. 00:55:30 was a large demand in a consumer market that didn't really care that it wasn't as good
912. 00:55:36 as the laser printers because it was good enough.
913. 00:55:39 And he has a quote there which I really really liked.
914. 00:55:41 He said two models for how to make money cannot peacefully coexist within a single organization.
915. 00:55:50 I completely understand that in the family business that I was involved in for quite a
916. 00:55:57 while there was we went through a transition where we transitioned from software that you
917. 00:56:03 would install on a network to an online HTML5 CSS model built on Ruby on Rails.
918. 00:56:12 So very technical basically all you need to know is that we made a leap when all this
919. 00:56:16 stuff about flash was going on Steve Jobs wrote the letter about how we're never going
920. 00:56:19 to allow flash on our iPads like while we were in the middle of this development project.
921. 00:56:24 And I was a big advocate for what we had we can't do flash we have to do HTML5 CSS Ruby
922. 00:56:31 on Rails because this is this is the future everything is going to support this not everything
923. 00:56:35 is going to support flash.
924. 00:56:38 And we guessed right but at the time we were in a precarious spot because we were investing
925. 00:56:45 a lot into research and development but we also had to keep the lights on.
926. 00:56:50 So we were selling software at the same time and then for a while we had the software still
927. 00:56:55 available we had a lot of customers in the education industry in particular that are
928. 00:56:59 not early adopters who wanted the old software but we knew that the online stuff was going
929. 00:57:07 to be the future.
930. 00:57:08 So it was an awkward position for a while because it's like well we know this is the
931. 00:57:12 future but we got to support both of these and usually when you went into a sales presentation
932. 00:57:19 saying you can pick either one of these you didn't get that sale.
933. 00:57:25 And as a company as an organization I feel personally that if we had gone all in on the
934. 00:57:36 the online technology the moment that it was available to the public we could have established
935. 00:57:42 a much stronger market position as an industry leader in this new technology which obviously
936. 00:57:50 now everything is web based.
937. 00:57:54 So I kind of look at it as somewhat of a missed opportunity I mean we did all right
938. 00:57:59 we navigated it fine but still that question in the back of my head you know what if.
939. 00:58:05 Yep I run into the question of do I build a website or do I build an app.
940. 00:58:10 I get that question because I can do both I'm one of those utility developers and I run
941. 00:58:17 across a lot of cases where we're going to build a website together awesome.
942. 00:58:22 Can we build an app too.
943. 00:58:23 Well if you want to yeah absolutely I have no idea what it's going to get you outside
944. 00:58:29 of it's cool but the only thing that it really seems to give people in this particular case
945. 00:58:37 is push notifications.
946. 00:58:38 Like that's really the one thing that an app is going to get you that a website won't
947. 00:58:42 like that's just how I have those conversations and the cost to build an app versus the cost
948. 00:58:49 to build a website is drastically different.
949. 00:58:51 So most of the time I think every time except one I've had people just stick to the website
950. 00:58:58 because it's so much easier to develop for all applications as opposed to trying to
951. 00:59:04 do native stuff.
952. 00:59:06 So I get it.
953. 00:59:07 Correct.
954. 00:59:08 If you think about I mean that's a great example because that's also kind of recent history
955. 00:59:12 you know when the iPhone first launched Steve Jobs said you don't need apps you can install
956. 00:59:19 web apps basically and obviously Apple's made a ton of money off of the app store that's
957. 00:59:24 one of the things that they've done well so they've had to pivot there.
958. 00:59:27 Facebook also when the app craze was just starting for I don't even know how long it
959. 00:59:33 was I think it was like two years they did not have a mobile application they said just
960. 00:59:38 use the mobile web page it's fine and technically they were right but that's not the experience
961. 00:59:44 that the customer was looking for and again it's colored through the lens that you present
962. 00:59:51 it I mean they could have done surveys with people they came to Facebook they watched
963. 00:59:56 them use the the the web view after they had loaded it on the mobile device for them already
964. 01:00:01 and they they could see that they could navigate everything cleanly didn't have any issues and
965. 01:00:07 so they look at that data and they say oh well we don't need a mobile application but
966. 01:00:11 again you know they've pivoted and now Facebook is kind of famously done very very well on
967. 01:00:18 mobile as they've embraced that platform and also at the same time because they've put
968. 01:00:25 an increased emphasis on it kind of figured out the formula for monetizing mobile I think
969. 01:00:32 if you were to do a case study on mobile applications and monetization Facebook's got to be one
970. 01:00:37 of those companies that you study because they've done done pretty well at it whether
971. 01:00:41 you like their methods or not right right but you also have to keep in mind that they
972. 01:00:45 stepped into the app world whenever notifications started to be a thing so that's true they because
973. 01:00:52 of push notifications that's what made their app so much more applicable than just the
974. 01:00:58 website because the website doesn't let you push things to the phone but the app will
975. 01:01:03 so almost every case you're stepping into my wheelhouse here Mike so almost every single
976. 01:01:09 time there are very few exceptions but the only times that I've run across that are successful
977. 01:01:14 where the app has the ability to trump what the website does are cases when you need to
978. 01:01:22 collect information and you're not going to be on a data connection you're going to be
979. 01:01:27 somewhere off of offline so you have to be able to interact with things that are sitting on the
980. 01:01:32 phone that's one case scenario the other is when you're pushing things to the phone from an external
981. 01:01:37 cloud service of some kind if you're not doing one of those two things the chances of an app being
982. 01:01:44 worthwhile are pretty slim like it just doesn't seem to give you a whole lot if it's a thing where
983. 01:01:49 you're going to go check it to see the new stuff and you don't have a need to push things to the
984. 01:01:53 phone or you're always going to have a data connection to me websites are the way to go
985. 01:02:00 they're a lot easier to develop and it has a lot more flexibility and a lot so anyway you're
986. 01:02:06 gonna get me on a little soapbox here but anyway so let's step into action items here I have one
987. 01:02:15 and it's not it's not anything major it's just kind of a this is good to know but I have a lot of
988. 01:02:23 criteria that I go through when I evaluate new technologies that I'm looking for to turn into
989. 01:02:28 businesses and whenever I do that I can see we're understanding what can qualify as a disruptive
990. 01:02:36 tech because ultimately that's what I want to find you know if I'm looking at the railroad industry
991. 01:02:40 and I run across something that I feel like is going to completely change the way that there are
992. 01:02:44 trains communicate with the railroad crossings if I run across something like that then I know
993. 01:02:50 that I've got something that's a great opportunity as a business there but to me this has given me
994. 01:02:56 a lot of criteria to help find these things to find whatever the new stuff is and to help
995. 01:03:02 figure out what's the best one to turn into a new business so I don't think I'm going to be able
996. 01:03:06 to say this went really well it's just another thing that adds to my way of understanding what to
997. 01:03:13 look for so you can ask me how it went next time but I'm probably not going to have much
998. 01:03:18 of an answer right well I mean this this does read like a textbook yeah it does
999. 01:03:25 I don't know I feel like having recorded the episode this is your final exam so now it's just
1000. 01:03:32 try to retain yeah as much of this stuff as as you can when it's applicable I think the the stories
1001. 01:03:38 and the examples are really what stood out to me the action items that I wrote down and again like
1002. 01:03:44 we're just finishing up the development for the email course so like I could definitely see the
1003. 01:03:50 positive benefits of listening to your users and not just your users but the people who are connected
1004. 01:03:58 to your potential or your your current customer because the next big thing may not fit into the
1005. 01:04:07 box that you have created to serve your current customers so really just listening to what people
1006. 01:04:13 in general are saying and then also to keep learning to keep looking for the next new thing and to keep
1007. 01:04:19 it comes back to listening but in looking at what you're hearing and then figuring out where the
1008. 01:04:26 trends are so one of the things that I think is key to apple being able to navigate this stuff
1009. 01:04:31 successfully in the recent past and then we'll see how well they do in the near future is one of the
1010. 01:04:38 things that Steve Jobs said was stay hungry stay foolish and actually as we record this today I
1011. 01:04:46 believe is the is it the five-year anniversary of his death I think it was yes was it the small yeah I
1012. 01:04:51 think it was today yeah as we're recording this so I heard on one of the podcasts that I subscribe
1013. 01:04:57 to at the end they replayed his address to Stanford University where he talks about these got three
1014. 01:05:04 different lessons that he tells him it's and it's really good if you haven't listened to it you
1015. 01:05:08 should definitely check it out because at that point he had successfully dealt with one round of
1016. 01:05:15 cancer and then obviously we know that he eventually died from it but at the end of that speech
1017. 01:05:23 he kind of talks about how it's kind of somber and not really morbid but he really just instills
1018. 01:05:31 remember this is a college graduation he's like remember that you're going to die someday
1019. 01:05:34 and he talks about how like if you view every day through that lens and you ask yourself
1020. 01:05:40 if I do I do I want to do what I am about to do today and if you say no too many days in a row
1021. 01:05:46 like go find something else but really he talks about his story his journey like how he was able to
1022. 01:05:53 drop out of college and attend a calligraphy class and how that influenced the font design on the
1023. 01:05:59 original Macintosh like he did a really good job of having a an open learning mindset that's the
1024. 01:06:07 thing I really want to take away is I think the people who can successfully navigate innovations
1025. 01:06:12 and disruptive technologies are the people who are constantly learning they're constantly looking
1026. 01:06:18 to make not just a better product but a better version of themselves so it's coming back to the
1027. 01:06:24 why that we talked about at the very beginning like their why is I want to do the right thing
1028. 01:06:31 not just the thing that has met the needs of my customers up until this point but constantly
1029. 01:06:36 looking for a better way to do things and so I want to embrace that that mindset not just
1030. 01:06:42 professionally but also personally which is where Bookworm comes in because we read a ton exactly
1031. 01:06:47 so it's one thing that and I tell people you know I have another course I did working with ideas and
1032. 01:06:53 in that course we talk about how do you go about continually bringing in new information into your
1033. 01:06:58 mind so that you can come up with new ideas how can you come up with this disruptive technology
1034. 01:07:03 how can you develop that process in your mind and the number one way is continually bring in new
1035. 01:07:08 information into your mind always be learning so there you go you know if you continue bringing
1036. 01:07:14 in that new information the more chances you have to come up with a new innovative and disruptive
1037. 01:07:18 idea now author style this was tough this is a hard read and this was this outside of maybe
1038. 01:07:29 some high-level executives I don't think I'll ever recommend this book like this is just one that
1039. 01:07:35 I think it's interesting to have read but it's very technical and difficult for I would say it's
1040. 01:07:43 very difficult for most people to just pick up and stick with it especially since he starts off
1041. 01:07:47 with the hard part you know he starts off with that disk drive piece so it's if you don't have an
1042. 01:07:53 interest in disk drives or the history of the technical components that are inside of mainframes
1043. 01:07:58 and many computers if you don't have an interest in that this is going to be a challenge so it's a
1044. 01:08:04 big ding on it in my opinion so it's a tough one you can tell that if you can make it through the
1045. 01:08:11 disk drive part yeah you can tell that Clayton Christensen is a very brilliant business thinker
1046. 01:08:17 but all you need to know is you look at the cover and you see that it is published by Harvard a
1047. 01:08:21 business review press so if that excites you read the book if it does not excite you it's stay away
1048. 01:08:28 because it definitely did feel like I was back in business school like I said I almost gave up
1049. 01:08:34 before we left the disk drive section I was really concerned because I mean confession I did this
1050. 01:08:40 in college too the classes that did not the professors that did not engage me I found myself
1051. 01:08:46 reading the material and just going through the pages and not getting anything from it nothing
1052. 01:08:51 was clicking right that's how this book started for me and I was really worried that we were going
1053. 01:08:57 to get on on the mic and talk for an hour about stuff that just went in one year and out the other
1054. 01:09:02 but that's not how it ended up okay so I actually did get quite a bit out of this book I am glad
1055. 01:09:08 that I read it but it would definitely be hard for me to to recommend this one to the general
1056. 01:09:14 public like you said but if you really like Harvard business review I know several people
1057. 01:09:20 that do subscribe to that like I think it's definitely a good book and Clayton Christensen's
1058. 01:09:25 a brilliant guy so how would you rate this taking all that into account I was hoping you would go
1059. 01:09:32 first I can go first if you want I'm gonna give it a 3.5 I think like I said there's definitely a
1060. 01:09:41 lot of really good content in here but for the average bookworm listener I don't think that this
1061. 01:09:51 is going to be appropriate where if you're gonna pick a book to read there are other books on our
1062. 01:09:59 list that I would read first but for the right person at the right time this book could be amazing
1063. 01:10:07 so yeah I'm gonna say 3.5 I was gonna give it a 3.0 so I enjoyed understanding the concepts it was
1064. 01:10:17 helpful to see the difference and differentiate between sustaining tech and disruptive tech but
1065. 01:10:24 the methods through which we got there extremely painful in my opinion okay so I I'll put it at 3
1066. 01:10:34 because the concepts are extremely helpful I that's probably the only thing keeping me off of a
1067. 01:10:39 2 or 2 5 is because the concepts are so helpful but it's just yeah it's very heady I would say you
1068. 01:10:47 really have to think and this is not one some of these books that we read and you know there's one
1069. 01:10:54 that's on our upcoming list here shortly that you know they're pretty short they're pretty easy to
1070. 01:10:58 read they're very easy going and I can sit down or read them you know at night before bed and I'm
1071. 01:11:03 fine this thing I had to do at first thing in the morning when my mind was on full
1072. 01:11:09 full alert because there was no way I was gonna pull off reading this right before bed I'd be
1073. 01:11:15 great bedtime material to help me fall asleep but it was it was a challenge so I'm gonna put it at a
1074. 01:11:22 3 I actually did fall asleep at one point awesome I made that mistake at the beginning because that's
1075. 01:11:29 usually when I read read books is at night before I go to bed and that first chapter started reading
1076. 01:11:35 was about 9 30 and fell asleep on the couch awesome so amber and team when you guys are
1077. 01:11:42 picking books for your family to read skip this one right but if you are in business school and
1078. 01:11:49 this stuff really floats your boat then check it out yeah I would say if you're in business school
1079. 01:11:54 it's probably a must read which is there I don't know very many people that really thoroughly enjoy
1080. 01:12:02 the deeper level stuff within business school though I just don't most people just try to understand
1081. 01:12:07 the the high level concepts of it but the deeper stuff tends to just be forgotten just my opinion
1082. 01:12:15 now you're probably right I definitely am a little bit of an oddball in that that respect
1083. 01:12:23 I guess that some of this stuff I really really do get get excited about there were definitely
1084. 01:12:30 parts in this book where he's talking about the different examples like the HP example and I was
1085. 01:12:35 like oh that is awesome that's a great idea you know but they were kind of few and far between
1086. 01:12:41 for the the average the average reader I would say yeah the HP thing was like a five page
1087. 01:12:47 excerpt out of 260 so there you go so innovators dilemma was my choice would you pick for after that
1088. 01:12:56 the productivity project by Chris Bailey which I've started on this one and it's way different
1089. 01:13:04 you know there's still one so this will be a fun one okay and then I have a short one
1090. 01:13:11 for following that so I picked this one for a couple reasons and I'll go into it again when
1091. 01:13:16 we get there but it's managing oneself by Peter Drucker so we go through all these books in two
1092. 01:13:21 weeks and for a lot of people it's tough to get through it in two weeks because a lot of them are
1093. 01:13:28 around 200 pages and this one I just grabbed it is 56 55 so this one's 55 pages very small pages
1094. 01:13:39 very large print you will sit down and read this one in one sitting easy I think so if you're wanting
1095. 01:13:45 to get into the bookworm cycle this would be a good one to jump in on so that one would be
1096. 01:13:50 following the productivity project so if you're wanting to get started on following along with
1097. 01:13:53 this this would be a good one to do it with sweet yeah and if you want to recommend a book
1098. 01:14:00 you can actually do that on the bookworm website which is bookworm.fm and on the right hand side
1099. 01:14:08 there's a sidebar where there's a button you can recommend a book and if you click on that there's
1100. 01:14:13 a there's a form but there is a list of the upcoming books on here also there's a book list
1101. 01:14:19 so if you want to see what we have done or and also what is what is planned and what other people
1102. 01:14:24 have recommended you go to bookworm.fm/list cool and as we have mentioned just about every
1103. 01:14:33 episode now if you wouldn't mind leave us an iTunes review it I think it's interesting to see
1104. 01:14:37 what people you know we were talking about this at the very beginning like what do you think about
1105. 01:14:41 the show and like Amber did she sent us an email to let us know her opinion and how it's affected
1106. 01:14:47 her but another way great way to do that is with an iTunes review because then you can give that
1107. 01:14:50 feedback but it also serves a secondary role in helping other people find us and we're always
1108. 01:14:58 looking to have a bigger impact so if you if you wouldn't mind go over to iTunes I'll drop a link
1109. 01:15:03 in the show notes for you and just go over there and leave us a review. Yeah that would be that
1110. 01:15:09 would be awesome we really do enjoy hearing from people who are getting a lot out of the show and
1111. 01:15:15 leaving iTunes reviews definitely a way that other people can can find the show so iTunes is a funky
1112. 01:15:21 algorithm that they use to feature different podcasts and one of the things they look at is
1113. 01:15:26 the number of reviews and then also how recent the reviews are so if you could do that that would be
1114. 01:15:31 great and really appreciate everybody listening we'll catch you next time.