137: Atlas of the Heart by Brené Brown

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1. 00:00:00 8 a.m. is way too early to record a podcast.
2. 00:00:03 Joe Billeg, yet here we are.
3. 00:00:05 You're very gracious for letting us do this at a clock on a Monday morning.
4. 00:00:10 So there's that.
5. 00:00:12 And Kudos to Blake for joining us so early on the live stream because I know it was very
6. 00:00:18 short notice, but he still made it.
7. 00:00:21 So good job team.
8. 00:00:22 He did.
9. 00:00:23 Yep.
10. 00:00:24 I'm not sure how much detail you want to go into, but kind of a strange circumstance
11. 00:00:30 which led to the rescheduling of this podcast.
12. 00:00:33 Yeah.
13. 00:00:34 The plan was to record this three days ago on Friday.
14. 00:00:39 And it wasn't going to happen because I was in the middle of an insurance process because
15. 00:00:45 it's two weeks ago today.
16. 00:00:48 We took our girls to Great Wolf Lodge, did the whole water park thing, but in the process
17. 00:00:53 of that one night stay, our suburban was stolen.
18. 00:00:57 Super fun.
19. 00:00:59 And the great people at the Great Wolf Lodge did not have cameras on this area, nor did
20. 00:01:05 Joe have any form of like tracking inside the vehicle.
21. 00:01:09 Thus it is now gone.
22. 00:01:11 And when I was going to be recording with Mike on Friday, is when I was in the middle
23. 00:01:15 of phone calls and adjuster meetings and stuff and trying to determine what is the value
24. 00:01:20 of now gone suburban.
25. 00:01:23 So super fun financial stuff going on there.
26. 00:01:27 But yes, we had our trucks stolen.
27. 00:01:30 Not a fun experience.
28. 00:01:31 Yeah, that really stinks.
29. 00:01:33 I'm very sorry to hear that.
30. 00:01:36 Probably brought a whole range of emotions which is very appropriate for today's book.
31. 00:01:44 That is probably one of the more forced segues I've heard from you, Mike.
32. 00:01:48 Well done.
33. 00:01:49 Well, we're not ready to go there quite yet.
34. 00:01:52 We've got some follow up to talk about here.
35. 00:01:56 Yes.
36. 00:01:57 So did you create a task management system diagram?
37. 00:02:00 I have one started.
38. 00:02:01 I don't have it done.
39. 00:02:04 Part of that is because after you and I finished recording last time, we had this conversation
40. 00:02:10 about how Joe was going to publish this.
41. 00:02:14 And that kind of changed how in depth this was going to be.
42. 00:02:19 And I've spent more time on this silly diagram, Mike, than I think I have ever spent on something
43. 00:02:26 simple and yet complex.
44. 00:02:28 So here we are.
45. 00:02:31 I have a very, I don't want to say a rough draft because it's more than that.
46. 00:02:35 It's like a first or second draft on it, but it continues to morph on about an every other
47. 00:02:41 day, third day period.
48. 00:02:43 So still kind of working through what that all will look like, but I need to have it in
49. 00:02:49 such a way that it can be published, whether it's on my blog or elsewhere.
50. 00:02:52 I don't know quite yet, but anyway, it's in progress.
51. 00:02:56 That's my point.
52. 00:02:57 So it does exist.
53. 00:02:58 I do have a draft, but I'm not ready to share it yet.
54. 00:03:00 Okay.
55. 00:03:01 That's fair enough.
56. 00:03:02 My whole task management world was slipped upside down as I started doing some research
57. 00:03:06 into task management side of obsidian, by the way.
58. 00:03:08 So mine is now out of date.
59. 00:03:10 Did you know you can do start dates for tasks in obsidian and have system level notifications
60. 00:03:18 show up?
61. 00:03:19 Yeah.
62. 00:03:20 You can do scheduled dates to where it doesn't show up until a day and then you can have it
63. 00:03:25 show up only on that one day plus due dates.
64. 00:03:27 Yeah, you can do all of that.
65. 00:03:29 The trick with that is it's with any extra piece of metadata, right?
66. 00:03:33 Anytime you have the option for that, you have to be careful because just because you
67. 00:03:37 can use it doesn't mean you should in your case.
68. 00:03:39 Yeah, you shouldn't use all of them, but I have long been looking for the start dates
69. 00:03:43 and the reminders just kind of blew my mind that you could actually have system level
70. 00:03:47 reminders, not in app reminders.
71. 00:03:50 I figured you could get the little purple boxes to show up, but it's insane.
72. 00:03:55 So yeah, yeah obsidian is not blue.
73. 00:03:58 I always have to remind myself of that.
74. 00:04:00 That's right.
75. 00:04:01 It's got the little purple stone as the icon, unless you use the custom icon, which I did
76. 00:04:09 of course you did.
77. 00:04:11 Yeah, so I will be documenting that experiment in the near future.
78. 00:04:17 We made it three and a half minutes, I think, until I mentioned obsidian.
79. 00:04:22 Well done.
80. 00:04:23 Is that a record?
81. 00:04:25 Probably not.
82. 00:04:26 Probably not.
83. 00:04:28 My follow up here was to collect more models.
84. 00:04:34 And I don't think I have collected any specific models, but I have written in the past couple
85. 00:04:39 weeks about my theme for the year, which is the year of recalibration.
86. 00:04:46 And it's kind of all based on mental models and collecting new ones and understanding
87. 00:04:53 there's a whole bunch of stuff that I don't really know.
88. 00:04:56 So I could put a link in the show notes to the newsletter that I sent out about that
89. 00:05:03 if people are interested.
90. 00:05:06 But this is an ongoing project.
91. 00:05:09 And I feel even more strongly after the last couple weeks that this is kind of the thing
92. 00:05:16 for me this year is to just reevaluate everything.
93. 00:05:20 And the way to do that is to collecting these models.
94. 00:05:24 So nothing specific that I have collected and put inside of set obsidian database, but
95. 00:05:32 it's in progress and will continue to be in progress probably for the rest of my life.
96. 00:05:37 Yeah, you're basically saying you're never going to stop thinking.
97. 00:05:42 That's essentially what you're kind of saying.
98. 00:05:44 Well, it's thinking in a specific direction.
99. 00:05:48 So when I talk about the year of recalibration, it's basically all the things that I've assumed
100. 00:05:53 and I've kind of built my habits and routines around.
101. 00:05:56 I want to challenge all that stuff.
102. 00:05:59 And the way you challenge it is you get different contradictory maybe perspectives towards some
103. 00:06:05 of that stuff.
104. 00:06:07 And so I feel that is very much in line with the mental models.
105. 00:06:10 Maybe it's not framed as mental models.
106. 00:06:13 Maybe it's just, hey, did you ever think about this?
107. 00:06:16 So one of the things, I guess, you know, one part of this that I have been complete, I
108. 00:06:21 have completed in the last couple of weeks is just the whole, like what time I wake up
109. 00:06:28 because for those who don't know, I've been diagnosed with epilepsy.
110. 00:06:33 And so one of the things that can trigger a seizure is not getting enough sleep.
111. 00:06:38 So I have to sleep my eight hours every night.
112. 00:06:43 Otherwise I am not going to drive and I got to be really, really careful just because
113. 00:06:49 it's a stressor and you can't really like tell when a seizure is going to come on.
114. 00:06:53 I haven't had one in 20 plus years at this point because I've been so careful with this
115. 00:06:58 stuff.
116. 00:06:59 But so just get up earlier, you know, that's not really an option for me.
117. 00:07:03 A whole bunch of things need to change in order for that to happen.
118. 00:07:08 And for the last couple of years, up until I broke my hand, I have been getting up probably
119. 00:07:13 about 6.45, 7 a.m. because I got to get my eight hours of sleep and just that's the
120. 00:07:18 natural time by the time everybody comes home from church or wherever we are at night, basketball
121. 00:07:23 game, get out of the kids in bed, downshift, my wife and I go to bed, like that's just
122. 00:07:28 kind of the natural rhythm.
123. 00:07:30 But I want to push that forward.
124. 00:07:32 And so it requires a whole lot of Herculean effort.
125. 00:07:35 It feels like sometimes to put things in other places.
126. 00:07:40 And then also instead of going to the gym for an hour in the middle of the day, I'm
127. 00:07:45 trying to, we have a rowing machine, which was a COVID purchase when we couldn't go to
128. 00:07:51 the gym.
129. 00:07:52 And I've just been trying to do like these intense rowing workouts in the mornings, just
130. 00:07:56 10, 15 minutes, get a little bit of a sweat first thing in the morning.
131. 00:08:02 And then I'll get to the gym if it works later on, but at least I've done something, you
132. 00:08:07 know, and trying to do that before the rest of my regular morning routine before I start
133. 00:08:13 my actual work.
134. 00:08:15 And that's like I've already made that change kind of inspired by another gap book that
135. 00:08:22 I had read earlier this year, the 5am club, which I'm not sure I would recommend.
136. 00:08:30 But there's like this ideal day towards the end of that book.
137. 00:08:35 And I looked at some of the elements of it and I'm like, yeah, that kind of makes sense.
138. 00:08:39 So I'm trying to figure out how that works for me.
139. 00:08:43 So I guess you could say it's kind of an experiment based off of a new mental model, a new old
140. 00:08:48 mental model of getting up early.
141. 00:08:51 It sounds like you're collecting a whole bunch of stuff.
142. 00:08:54 Like there's a lot inside of that, which I would imagine the book that we're going to
143. 00:08:59 cover today throws a lot in that knowing how many different things and thoughts this book
144. 00:09:05 gave me.
145. 00:09:06 I think I'm itching to get into this one, Mike, but like there's just a lot in here
146. 00:09:09 that I feel like would fit into the concept of doing more models in your note system.
147. 00:09:14 But I also know that if you don't have like a good way to process your thinking, like
148. 00:09:21 you and I do this over bookworm, you do a lot of it in your writing inside of Obsidian
149. 00:09:26 text files and such.
150. 00:09:28 Like if you don't have a good way of processing your thoughts, I feel like it's easy to get
151. 00:09:32 caught up in bad models, like in bad routine thinking, and you don't really have a good
152. 00:09:39 way of getting out of that unless you have someone else to bounce it off of or again,
153. 00:09:44 some way to write it down.
154. 00:09:46 I agreed.
155. 00:09:47 Yeah, we can get into today's book just real quickly though, that rowing machine that is
156. 00:09:50 Blake's fault.
157. 00:09:51 It is the concept to model D. It's a great rowing machine, very expensive.
158. 00:09:59 But yeah, I believe this is going to be my justification for making it a good purchase.
159. 00:10:05 I definitely have not used it enough to justify it yet, but so far last couple of weeks is
160. 00:10:11 getting up early and using the rowing machine.
161. 00:10:13 It has been great.
162. 00:10:14 Gets my blood going, makes me awake, which I really need after.
163. 00:10:20 The last week, by the way, I did this like cleanse, fast, sort of a thing.
164. 00:10:27 I did a complete fast a couple of days, but otherwise, just fruit and veggies, water,
165. 00:10:33 gave up coffee for a week and made me very sleepy.
166. 00:10:37 There were a couple nights I slept like 12 hours.
167. 00:10:42 I don't think I could pull that off if I wanted to.
168. 00:10:45 I would have to be sick to pull that off, I think.
169. 00:10:48 It just doesn't work.
170. 00:10:49 I've tried it before.
171. 00:10:51 Staying in bed eight and a half hours is borderline painful for me.
172. 00:10:56 It was too long.
173. 00:10:57 It was an organized fast that we did with our church, but definitely had a lot of health
174. 00:11:03 benefits as well and kind of a reset.
175. 00:11:06 I had done this at the beginning of the year for a lot of years in a row and hadn't done
176. 00:11:11 it the last couple of years.
177. 00:11:13 I was definitely, definitely new.
178. 00:11:15 Felt good once you get over the being tired all the time for the first couple of days.
179. 00:11:22 Fair enough.
180. 00:11:23 All right, let's get into today's book, which is The Atlas of the Heart by Brene Brown,
181. 00:11:31 the book that you did not think I would pick.
182. 00:11:35 Not at all.
183. 00:11:36 Not at all.
184. 00:11:37 You totally threw me off guard and you picked this one.
185. 00:11:38 Just curious, why were you so surprised when I picked this one?
186. 00:11:43 Why did you think this is not a Mike book?
187. 00:11:50 This might get into bookworm stereotypes.
188. 00:11:54 That's fine.
189. 00:11:56 I feel like your type of book has a tendency to be all about daily routine, repetitive
190. 00:12:05 actions.
191. 00:12:07 It's habits, it's routines, it's traditions, it's, I don't want to say systems, now that
192. 00:12:12 I've learned too much about systems.
193. 00:12:15 It's like that style, I guess.
194. 00:12:19 You probably would have said systems prior to reading thinking in systems would be my
195. 00:12:22 guess.
196. 00:12:23 Prior to last book.
197. 00:12:24 Yeah.
198. 00:12:25 But then it's usually me who picks the one that's way out there a little bit weird and
199. 00:12:30 gets all borderline touchy-feely and breaks the mold and that's where I tend to push us.
200. 00:12:38 I feel like this one being heart-driven versus logistical-driven, I guess, breaks that mold
201. 00:12:46 in my head, which is why when you said Atlas of the Heart, this was right up there in
202. 00:12:51 the realm of books I was looking at, which would make me think that this is kind of my
203. 00:12:56 stereotypical book, which is probably why I really enjoyed reading this.
204. 00:13:00 But I was not expecting it from you.
205. 00:13:03 I just wasn't.
206. 00:13:04 So there's that.
207. 00:13:05 Are you calling me cold and mechanical, Jobe-leg?
208. 00:13:09 Completely cold and mechanical.
209. 00:13:10 That is exactly what I was getting at.
210. 00:13:12 No.
211. 00:13:13 Nah, I'm just kidding.
212. 00:13:14 So and as I reflect back on some of the books that I have selected for Bookworm versus the
213. 00:13:19 books that you've selected for Bookworm, I can see how you arrived at that.
214. 00:13:24 I think what I realized with picking, there was another one recently that kind of surprised
215. 00:13:30 you.
216. 00:13:31 I forget which one it was.
217. 00:13:32 I realized that the way that I pick books is I pick the ones that are about a topic I'm
218. 00:13:40 interested in.
219. 00:13:42 And it is maybe a little bit weird that my interest has kind of gone in this direction.
220. 00:13:49 But I also think maybe it's not unnatural.
221. 00:13:52 That was really the place it was going to go if you look back at the history.
222. 00:13:56 He's like, okay, well, we've exhausted the habits and routines now.
223. 00:14:00 Let's move to something else.
224. 00:14:01 And we haven't completely exhausted it.
225. 00:14:03 I know there's other stuff out there.
226. 00:14:04 But always.
227. 00:14:05 I feel like I've gotten to the point where like, that's enough.
228. 00:14:08 Okay, let's try something else now.
229. 00:14:11 And then kind of going in line with the theme of recalibration and leaning into the things
230. 00:14:17 that I don't know as much about or maybe make me a little bit uncomfortable.
231. 00:14:24 I when I picked this one didn't feel like it was unnatural at all to be honest.
232. 00:14:31 But I guess that's just because I have my perspective on this and I can see how I got
233. 00:14:35 to this point.
234. 00:14:36 And this is just kind of like, oh, yeah, this looks cool.
235. 00:14:39 And very much in line with examining the parts of me that have not been looked at for a
236. 00:14:45 while, maybe.
237. 00:14:48 Sure.
238. 00:14:49 So, but yeah, this book is interesting.
239. 00:14:51 It's not really a book.
240. 00:14:54 I don't know.
241. 00:14:55 It doesn't really fit the book or mold, to be honest.
242. 00:14:57 It's more like an encyclopedia about emotions.
243. 00:15:00 It's a beautiful hardcover book.
244. 00:15:02 If you do get that version, I do recommend people get that version, not the Kindle version
245. 00:15:07 because it's full color and there's so many pictures and so much beautiful typography
246. 00:15:12 and the layout is great.
247. 00:15:15 And it's just it's a work of art and it is definitely worth the $16 or whatever it was
248. 00:15:21 to get it off of Amazon.
249. 00:15:23 So link in the show notes.
250. 00:15:24 By the way, if you want to support the podcast, all of the book links, all the links to every
251. 00:15:30 book that we we mentioned are in the show notes and those are all affiliate links.
252. 00:15:35 So when you buy a book that way, we get a little kickback.
253. 00:15:39 So thanks for considering doing that.
254. 00:15:41 And if you don't like Amazon affiliate links, there you go.
255. 00:15:43 Now you can avoid them.
256. 00:15:44 It's broken down into 13 different sections and it covers, I think I said 87 different
257. 00:15:50 emotions.
258. 00:15:51 So my thought is that we can just kind of crank through the different parts because I
259. 00:15:57 think the way that they are broken up is really interesting.
260. 00:16:00 And then as we go through the different parts, maybe we touch on one or two emotions, maybe
261. 00:16:05 one each that she talks about in these different points.
262. 00:16:09 I've got a few points for just as I was taking notes in my mind node file here, things I
263. 00:16:15 wanted to talk to you about from a couple of these these areas.
264. 00:16:21 But I don't think this book lends itself to a very deep back and forth conversation about
265. 00:16:30 a topic.
266. 00:16:31 Now, famous last words as we go off the rails and we do that anyways.
267. 00:16:34 But that's kind of what we do, right?
268. 00:16:38 But you're right.
269. 00:16:39 This isn't a we're going to go on a journey book and we're going to make one point across
270. 00:16:46 the entire book.
271. 00:16:48 That's not what this is.
272. 00:16:49 This is borderline a dictionary.
273. 00:16:52 And it's and I say that because and I'm sure you'll get to this.
274. 00:16:56 There's 13 parts in this book and they're all places we go as they're titled and underneath
275. 00:17:03 of those are individual emotions.
276. 00:17:07 But most of what you're getting is that when she goes to each end of those independent
277. 00:17:14 emotions, she will define it and then tell you about it, tell a story about it, explain
278. 00:17:20 the research behind it and how we should maybe manage it in some cases, like what to do about
279. 00:17:26 it, how to contradict it in some cases, how to bring about the good ones more often.
280. 00:17:32 She'll she'll do that.
281. 00:17:33 But for the most part, it's here's what this is and here's how it affects us.
282. 00:17:40 So it's not necessarily a prescriptive book in that sense.
283. 00:17:45 There's not a straightforward call to action out of this.
284. 00:17:49 Well, I shouldn't say that.
285. 00:17:51 There is a point at the very end where she does have a bit of a call to action, but it's
286. 00:17:55 not even really made that way.
287. 00:17:59 So all that to say, I feel like this is one that you can easily sit on and then come back
288. 00:18:06 to regularly.
289. 00:18:07 This is one of those that I think I'm just going to have around just to look things at
290. 00:18:11 like, wait a second, what was that again?
291. 00:18:13 So I don't think this is one that you can process very quickly all at once.
292. 00:18:18 It's something I think you're going to have to reference back to in the future.
293. 00:18:22 Yes, I love the style of this book and we'll get into style and rating obviously at the
294. 00:18:28 end.
295. 00:18:29 But I think it's important to mention here at the beginning that there is a whole bunch
296. 00:18:33 of research, a whole bunch of studies.
297. 00:18:35 She's got a whole research team that she works with and she does an incredible job of balancing
298. 00:18:40 that research with her own personal stories.
299. 00:18:44 So she has lots of examples for all of these different emotions and it's not the same cookie
300. 00:18:49 cutter approach to each and every one of them.
301. 00:18:51 So it's a really interesting approach to a book.
302. 00:18:58 And you mentioned there isn't a call to action.
303. 00:19:01 I would say at the beginning, there is a call to adventure, let's say.
304. 00:19:05 Because she talks about how this, I mean, it's in the title, the atlas of the heart,
305. 00:19:14 right?
306. 00:19:15 And this harkens back to something that we had heard from the great mental models.
307. 00:19:21 Number one was the map is not the territory.
308. 00:19:26 So that's all about like taking the role of the map maker and redefining the scope of
309. 00:19:36 the territory or the land in front of you.
310. 00:19:39 And that's kind of what she's saying here.
311. 00:19:42 Let's just talk real briefly about the introduction here.
312. 00:19:45 She talks about being a map maker and a traveler.
313. 00:19:50 And I feel like this is a really cool metaphor that sets up the rest of the book because
314. 00:19:58 at the beginning, she talks about how most people can only identify a couple of emotions,
315. 00:20:03 mad, sad and glad basically.
316. 00:20:06 And there's 87 of them that she defines here.
317. 00:20:09 I keep saying that number because it kind of blows my mind.
318. 00:20:15 And she's basically encouraging us to explore some of these.
319. 00:20:20 And that can be uncomfortable.
320. 00:20:22 I found that she's naming all of these.
321. 00:20:25 I kind of think back to points in my life where I have felt each and every one of these.
322. 00:20:32 And I didn't for all of them have like a direct connection for some of that stuff.
323. 00:20:39 But at least it was asking myself the question as we went into each and every section, when
324. 00:20:44 have I felt this before?
325. 00:20:47 And she says right in this introduction, there's three essential questions.
326. 00:20:50 Where am I?
327. 00:20:52 How did I get here from there?
328. 00:20:54 And how do I get there from here?
329. 00:20:56 So I think that's really important as you're considering kind of doing a self analysis of
330. 00:21:01 your own emotional state and being able to correctly label how you're feeling now that
331. 00:21:08 you have a whole bunch more vocabulary to use, and then you can kind of see, oh, these are
332. 00:21:14 the factors that brought me to this place good or bad.
333. 00:21:17 And if I want to go somewhere else, what direction do I need to head?
334. 00:21:22 Yeah, there's a lot that you can discern from each of these in that as you're going through
335. 00:21:29 them, like, okay, when have I experienced this?
336. 00:21:32 And sometimes that can bring back very good memories.
337. 00:21:38 In a lot of cases, it brings back the pain.
338. 00:21:42 And I have to admit, this is easily the most I've ever cried reading a book for bookworm.
339. 00:21:49 I don't know if this is your experience, but this is the way it was for me.
340. 00:21:52 Like there's some stories in here that bring back things that are not easy to process.
341. 00:21:58 And you're reading these stories and you're just working through times you've been wrong,
342. 00:22:04 times you've made mistakes when you've been humiliated, like all of these things come
343. 00:22:10 back.
344. 00:22:12 And the way that she tells a story and the way she explains it is so raw.
345. 00:22:16 Ugh, okay, I don't want to be that guy that's sitting over here in a corner crying while
346. 00:22:21 I'm reading a book, a nonfiction book for that matter.
347. 00:22:24 And here I am.
348. 00:22:26 And I'm like, okay, I'm going to put this book down for a while because I can't do this
349. 00:22:29 right now.
350. 00:22:30 Like, that's what this did, at least to me.
351. 00:22:32 Maybe this is me being an emotional person, but that's, that was my experience.
352. 00:22:36 And yes, there are some of these that bring back and help you understand.
353. 00:22:40 It's like, oh, that's what's going on.
354. 00:22:41 Like, if you have difficult situations you're going through right now, it's like, okay,
355. 00:22:45 well, how is that person doing right now and why are they acting the way that they are?
356. 00:22:50 There's probably a lot more going on in those situations.
357. 00:22:53 And I know that's kind of vague the way I'm saying that it's intentional at the moment,
358. 00:22:58 but there's just a lot of different aspects that you could take with these from seeing
359. 00:23:03 them in situations you're dealing with, from looking at your own past, from pains that
360. 00:23:08 you're going through, joys that you're going through.
361. 00:23:11 There's a lot of these that can bring back a lot of emotions.
362. 00:23:14 So if you are reading this or planning to read this, just be aware.
363. 00:23:20 You're going to go on a trip when you read this one.
364. 00:23:23 That's true.
365. 00:23:24 I mean, that's not an unexpected response.
366. 00:23:27 I don't think because one of the things I jotted down in the mind node file is in the
367. 00:23:30 introduction that being able to communicate about emotions is part of healing.
368. 00:23:35 And my response to all of the emotions that she listed here was I now have a much bigger
369. 00:23:43 vocabulary in order to communicate about these emotions with.
370. 00:23:48 And so if you experience something, especially something traumatic and you don't have the
371. 00:23:55 vocabulary to talk about it, I think it's very natural to just shut it down and not fully
372. 00:24:00 process it.
373. 00:24:02 And then when you go back and read this book and you read about some of these emotions
374. 00:24:09 and you hear some of her stories and then maybe that triggers something like you went
375. 00:24:14 through something similar, I can totally see how you would just be a mess after reading
376. 00:24:20 some of these.
377. 00:24:23 That's actually, let's put a pin in that because I want to dissect that a little bit
378. 00:24:26 further.
379. 00:24:28 Part one is places we go when things are uncertain or too much.
380. 00:24:35 And I asked you about this earlier and you said you were cool talking about it.
381. 00:24:41 So I'm just going to go for it.
382. 00:24:42 You think this is too much than just pushback?
383. 00:24:45 We'll cut it out.
384. 00:24:46 But you mentioned that you just had your suburban stolen.
385. 00:24:50 So you were fighting with insurance to prove that it was worth as much as you said it or
386. 00:24:56 more than what they were saying it was.
387. 00:24:58 So probably a whole bunch of these in this section you're going through right now.
388. 00:25:06 Do you mind kind of just talking through some of this and maybe some of the stuff that you
389. 00:25:11 were feeling and if there's one particular you want to dissect a little bit further
390. 00:25:14 we can do that on air and hopefully you won't cry.
391. 00:25:18 Yeah, so some of the, yeah, I don't think I'll cry on here here, but so the emotions underneath
392. 00:25:24 of this, so places we go when things are uncertain or too much, those are stress, overwhelm,
393. 00:25:29 anxiety, worry, avoidance, excitement, dread, fear, vulnerability.
394. 00:25:34 These are all things that are in most cases things we don't want to talk about.
395. 00:25:40 And in the case of the suburban it was one of those, you know, when it first happened
396. 00:25:46 there wasn't really a, oh gosh, what just happened I feel violated.
397. 00:25:50 I didn't have that at all.
398. 00:25:52 I don't know if that's a factor of the books that we've read, Mike, but in my stance it
399. 00:25:57 was what just happened?
400. 00:25:59 Is that actually what happened?
401. 00:26:01 It was more of a disbelief than anything at the beginning and then it became pure logistical
402. 00:26:07 to me.
403. 00:26:08 And I don't know if that's just my protector sense coming in trying to take care of my
404. 00:26:14 family.
405. 00:26:15 I don't know what that is, but I went straight into, okay, how do we get home?
406. 00:26:20 Because we're obviously not home right now.
407. 00:26:22 Well, okay, so rental car, it's part of our insurance, blah, blah, blah, that all came
408. 00:26:26 together very easily.
409. 00:26:28 And then on top of that, there is the stress of, okay, well now I've got to talk to the
410. 00:26:33 police and I've got to work with the detective and we've got to try to figure out how to
411. 00:26:36 find the thing.
412. 00:26:37 It's very likely not going to happen.
413. 00:26:39 There's all these things that have to happen logistically.
414. 00:26:43 And yet for me, I can't say that I've been stressed in the situation until I started working
415. 00:26:50 with the insurance side because a lot of it was out of my control.
416. 00:26:54 And at the same time, I felt very overwhelmed by it, you know, if I'm using some of these
417. 00:26:59 terms here, but just because it was so much that had to happen, which is why we ended
418. 00:27:04 up moving bookworm from Friday.
419. 00:27:06 Because it just seemed like I've got to figure out some very fine details of what is the
420. 00:27:11 price difference between a suburban that has a bench in the middle row versus one that
421. 00:27:14 has bucket seats.
422. 00:27:16 Like that's the level of detail I had to get to.
423. 00:27:19 And I had not even two hours to get to those answers and have raw data to prove it.
424. 00:27:26 That's basically what I had to get down to.
425. 00:27:28 Now, since then, I can tell you that it worked out.
426. 00:27:32 I reached a settlement with the insurance company, one that I think we're both happy
427. 00:27:37 with.
428. 00:27:38 So that has all worked out.
429. 00:27:40 It was worth it.
430. 00:27:41 But the time crunch and the not knowing puts you in a spot where emotions are very high
431. 00:27:48 and it gets very difficult to work through that.
432. 00:27:53 Something I was not expecting because I work in IT.
433. 00:27:56 I deal with stressful situations all the time, almost daily.
434. 00:28:00 People will have issues three minutes before a service starts and event starts.
435. 00:28:05 And I go in and research their computer and of course they just completely freak out.
436. 00:28:08 It's like, "We don't have time for that."
437. 00:28:09 It's like, "Yeah, you do.
438. 00:28:10 That'll wait.
439. 00:28:11 It'll be okay."
440. 00:28:12 And I'm completely calm in that situation and it just drives people up the wall.
441. 00:28:16 So I deal with that stuff all the time.
442. 00:28:19 So it doesn't freak me out.
443. 00:28:21 But I will tell you that I know that someone else in the same position I was talking to
444. 00:28:27 the police would freak out.
445. 00:28:29 And I know that because I wasn't the only one that had a vehicle stolen that night.
446. 00:28:33 There was someone else that had a minivan stolen as well, which in my head I'm like,
447. 00:28:36 "Why would you just deal with minivan?"
448. 00:28:37 That's what went through my head.
449. 00:28:39 But anyway, the other gentleman who they were working with to try to figure out simple
450. 00:28:45 stuff, what's the VIN number?
451. 00:28:47 What's the license plate?
452. 00:28:48 What's the thing look like?
453. 00:28:49 Where'd you park?
454. 00:28:50 Like, these are very basic things that police need to know.
455. 00:28:52 They're not going to find your vehicle if they don't know your license plate number, right?
456. 00:28:55 I had written all that down and handed it over to them on a note card because I knew they
457. 00:28:58 were going to want it ahead of time.
458. 00:29:00 The other guy was completely freaking out.
459. 00:29:02 He just kept explaining how he had booked the reservation and it wasn't his car.
460. 00:29:05 It was his father-in-laws.
461. 00:29:07 And he's not sure why they would pick his car.
462. 00:29:09 What are we going to do?
463. 00:29:10 How am I going to get home?
464. 00:29:11 Like, these are the questions he was asking the police whenever they would ask him what's
465. 00:29:15 your license plate number.
466. 00:29:16 It's like, that doesn't help at all.
467. 00:29:18 He just completely freaked out and wasn't able to slow down and process that.
468. 00:29:23 So I watched this guy and of course the police got frustrated and said, "Fine, we'll come
469. 00:29:27 back to you.
470. 00:29:28 Do you know your license plate number?"
471. 00:29:29 And looked at me.
472. 00:29:30 It's like, "Here you go.
473. 00:29:31 This is, I think, everything you need to know."
474. 00:29:32 And they asked me like two questions.
475. 00:29:34 I was there for 30 seconds and I was gone.
476. 00:29:36 That's as far as it went.
477. 00:29:37 So I say that because I think there's something to do and this is why I say I'm like, I think
478. 00:29:43 there's something to do with maybe the books and things that we've learned over the last
479. 00:29:47 however many years now of reading that stressful situations you can either freak out about them
480. 00:29:54 as this guy was doing or you can take your time, process it and run with it, decide what
481. 00:30:01 to do next and you're fine.
482. 00:30:03 But as far as the emotions behind it, mine came later.
483. 00:30:08 It wasn't the onset.
484. 00:30:10 It's been more with the insurance side of it than anything.
485. 00:30:12 I don't know if that answers your questions.
486. 00:30:15 It does.
487. 00:30:16 That is the Joe Buellig response I expected.
488. 00:30:19 Here's everything you need to know.
489. 00:30:21 Now go do your job.
490. 00:30:23 Yes.
491. 00:30:24 Exactly.
492. 00:30:25 From our conversations on Friday, I could tell you were a little bit stressed and I'm
493. 00:30:31 actually pretty impressed that you got resolution within a couple of hours.
494. 00:30:34 I could totally see how if you don't have any resolution and like, okay, we'll get back
495. 00:30:39 to you like if I was in that situation that ruins my whole weekend.
496. 00:30:44 Right.
497. 00:30:45 Right.
498. 00:30:46 It's totally good.
499. 00:30:47 Yeah.
500. 00:30:48 And I have had that beat into me a little bit over the last six months or so because of
501. 00:30:53 the house remodel we went through and I told Becky this absolutely.
502. 00:30:57 It's like so much of that remodel prepped me for things like this because it's out of
503. 00:31:02 my control when I can get supplies.
504. 00:31:04 It's out of my control when I can get subcontractors in like so many things are out of my control
505. 00:31:09 that you kind of get forced into, okay, well, you just make your backup plans and you really
506. 00:31:16 can't change it.
507. 00:31:17 So there's no point in me getting upset.
508. 00:31:19 So I was in the middle of waiting for police case numbers and an official from the rental
509. 00:31:25 company for when we were going to get a car to get home and I had a good three hours
510. 00:31:31 to wait, two hours to wait.
511. 00:31:34 So I went to the water park and went down the slides with the kids.
512. 00:31:37 Like it doesn't do me any good to sit around and wait and stress about the things.
513. 00:31:41 So let's go have some fun and do the lazy river and freak the kids out with raft rides
514. 00:31:46 that are too fast for them.
515. 00:31:48 Well, have fun.
516. 00:31:49 So that's what we did.
517. 00:31:52 So you mentioned the lazy river and one of our favorite movies lately has been Flora and
518. 00:31:58 Ulysses.
519. 00:31:59 Are you familiar with this?
520. 00:32:01 No, that's new to me.
521. 00:32:03 I think it's a classic book that was remade as a movie on Disney Plus and there's a point
522. 00:32:10 in their worth.
523. 00:32:12 The little girl is reflecting on better days when her parents were together and they used
524. 00:32:18 to go to the water park and her dad used to bring an extra swimming suit and put it in
525. 00:32:22 the lazy river just to watch the lifeguards freak out.
526. 00:32:28 And now I kind of want to do that.
527. 00:32:31 Yeah, yeah, I would definitely be up for that.
528. 00:32:34 Cool.
529. 00:32:35 Yeah, we should probably move on.
530. 00:32:37 But the other thing that I liked from this section was vulnerability.
531. 00:32:42 Vulnerability is the emotion that we experienced during times when certainly risk and emotional
532. 00:32:46 exposure.
533. 00:32:47 But the thing that I like about this is that there is no courage without vulnerability
534. 00:32:51 harkening back obviously to courage is calling, which we both love the Ryan Holiday book.
535. 00:33:00 And yeah, it just is very appropriate for me with some of the stuff that I'm going through
536. 00:33:06 right now.
537. 00:33:07 I don't know how it's going to work out, but I'm just kind of throwing it out there and
538. 00:33:11 it is all working out.
539. 00:33:14 Harkening back to a gap book that I read, the power of positive thinking that one seems
540. 00:33:20 to come up over and over and over again.
541. 00:33:22 I love that book.
542. 00:33:23 We should probably cover that one for bookworm at some point by Norman Vincent Peele.
543. 00:33:28 Definitely not for everybody, but there's a phrase in that book, you know, everything
544. 00:33:31 is always working out for me.
545. 00:33:33 And I've kind of been saying that over and over again.
546. 00:33:38 And when I started doing that, that's actually the day after that is when I broke my hand.
547. 00:33:45 But it's healed.
548. 00:33:46 I went to the doctor, got the all clear, got to play a guitar on the worship team yesterday
549. 00:33:50 at church.
550. 00:33:51 Still a little stiff, but it's all good.
551. 00:33:54 So it's kind of interesting to me how like all that temporary stuff can trigger any of
552. 00:33:59 these emotions, but when you take a step back and you see big picture, it ends up being
553. 00:34:06 not quite as bad or even good as you think in the moment.
554. 00:34:11 It's less extreme, you know, everything is kind of more even keeled.
555. 00:34:15 But vulnerability is the thing for me now.
556. 00:34:17 And if I were to create an action item from this, which I don't have any action items,
557. 00:34:21 I don't think because like you said, this is an encyclopedia, but it would be to put
558. 00:34:25 myself in more vulnerable situations very much in line with the theme of recalibration.
559. 00:34:31 Yeah.
560. 00:34:32 And just to echo some of what you're saying is like she mentions that vulnerability is
561. 00:34:36 one of those things that it's one of the last things we want to do.
562. 00:34:40 But it's one of the first things we expect of other people.
563. 00:34:44 We want other people to share their heart and be open, but it's one of the last things
564. 00:34:49 that we want to do.
565. 00:34:50 And it's such this such a weird thing because the moment you do share vulnerability and
566. 00:34:54 you're not completely, you know, cold and calculated and everything's perfect.
567. 00:34:59 If you do share your unknowns and your questions, your scene is more credible.
568. 00:35:05 So it's contradictory kind of, but it's exactly as you would expect at the same time.
569. 00:35:11 Yeah, true.
570. 00:35:12 Yeah, there's so much in this book.
571. 00:35:15 We're not even going to touch on a tenth of it, especially at this rate because we got
572. 00:35:20 to get moving.
573. 00:35:21 It's getting me a six hour episode if you wanted it to be.
574. 00:35:23 It's totally good.
575. 00:35:25 All right, let's talk about part two, which is places we go when we compare.
576. 00:35:33 And I'll just as we go through each of these parts, you did this for part one.
577. 00:35:37 And I'll continue to do this just so people know what's in here.
578. 00:35:40 But we won't talk about all of these.
579. 00:35:42 The emotions listed here are comparison, admiration, reverence, envy, jealousy, shaden
580. 00:35:49 Freud and Freud and Freud.
581. 00:35:51 Shaden Freud.
582. 00:35:52 Okay.
583. 00:35:53 And then Freud and Freud.
584. 00:35:54 Is that how you say that?
585. 00:35:55 Yep.
586. 00:35:56 Okay.
587. 00:35:57 So obviously there's some cool names we could dissect here, but the one that I think sets
588. 00:36:01 the stage for everything in here is comparison, which is not actually an emotion, but it does
589. 00:36:06 drive all sorts of feelings.
590. 00:36:07 So she includes it.
591. 00:36:09 But the thing that I jotted down that stood out to me from this section is that comparison
592. 00:36:14 is a creativity killer.
593. 00:36:16 And she has this phrase, which I think defines this more perfectly than I have ever heard
594. 00:36:22 in my entire life, which is the pressure to be like everyone else, but better.
595. 00:36:28 Exactly.
596. 00:36:29 You ever feel that?
597. 00:36:31 Oh, absolutely.
598. 00:36:32 And it honestly, it stops me from doing a lot of things too, because I see people who
599. 00:36:36 are better at me than take video editing, for example.
600. 00:36:40 So I'm not going to release videos because there's other people that are way better
601. 00:36:43 at it than me.
602. 00:36:44 Well, I'm comparing to them, but I don't want to do anything or act on it unless I'm better
603. 00:36:50 than them.
604. 00:36:51 So I'm comparing, but I want to be better.
605. 00:36:53 It's a vicious cycle.
606. 00:36:56 It is.
607. 00:36:57 It is.
608. 00:36:58 Yeah.
609. 00:36:59 I don't think we need to go into a whole lot here other than the Chardonn Freida.
610. 00:37:04 This is pretty insidious.
611. 00:37:07 This is deriving pleasure or joy from someone else's suffering or misfortune.
612. 00:37:13 So definitely avoid this.
613. 00:37:17 This requires counter empathy.
614. 00:37:20 I think empathy is probably going to come up in a lot of these, but it's obviously very
615. 00:37:26 much tied to the places we go when we compare ourselves to somebody else.
616. 00:37:31 When you see somebody else being successful, are you happy for them or do you kind of resent
617. 00:37:35 the fact that they are successful?
618. 00:37:39 So interesting how this ties back to Mindset by Carol Dweck and just the perspective of
619. 00:37:48 if there's only so much success to go around, then someone else being successful means that
620. 00:37:54 there's less for me.
621. 00:37:55 I got to do whatever I can to get as much as I can or viewing it as this is not a zero
622. 00:38:03 sum game.
623. 00:38:04 There's enough success for everybody, which is more in line with my school of thought,
624. 00:38:08 but there was definitely a point before reading that book that I felt that way.
625. 00:38:13 So it's also kind of interesting to me reading this.
626. 00:38:16 As you mentioned, at this point in our lives after we've covered 136 other books, 136 books
627. 00:38:23 joke.
628. 00:38:24 This is number 137.
629. 00:38:26 That's crazy.
630. 00:38:27 So we've developed maybe a little bit of emotional intelligence as we have gone through a lot
631. 00:38:32 of other books.
632. 00:38:33 Yeah, the shot in Freuda that you mentioned in case somebody missed it, that's when you
633. 00:38:38 get joy or pleasure from somebody else's pain or suffering or misfortune.
634. 00:38:44 If you combine that with some of the other emotions, it will talk about a little bit
635. 00:38:48 later and then overlay our political and societal culture, which she does call out here.
636. 00:38:57 It's almost sickening to think about how it perpetuates the cycle of hate and how it
637. 00:39:04 forces us into a world of just not liking another person because of something very simple
638. 00:39:10 that we don't even understand entirely.
639. 00:39:12 If someone has a different belief system than you or wants to make their own choice in a
640. 00:39:19 situation and you wish ill on them and get excited when they're hurt, you're in a bad
641. 00:39:24 place, you're in a really bad place whether you realize that or not.
642. 00:39:29 So it's something you need to address very quickly because it leads to some very dangerous
643. 00:39:35 situations which again she talks about later.
644. 00:39:38 Agreed.
645. 00:39:39 So don't go there, which is kind of the whole point in sharing some of this stuff is like
646. 00:39:43 you can identify where you want to end up and where you want to avoid entirely.
647. 00:39:48 This is one of those ones that you want to stay away from.
648. 00:39:51 Alright, the next section here is part three, which is places we go when things don't go
649. 00:40:01 as planned.
650. 00:40:03 And again, reading through the emotions here, boredom, disappointment, expectations, regret,
651. 00:40:11 discouragement, resignation, and frustration.
652. 00:40:16 Any of these stand out to you?
653. 00:40:18 Just the first one there, the boredom piece, well that and frustration, but the boredom
654. 00:40:24 piece she spells out that a lot of times there's the historical or cliche almost phrase whenever
655. 00:40:32 people say that, you know, if I'm bored, well I'll find something for you to do.
656. 00:40:36 That's what I grew up with.
657. 00:40:38 Like a lot of people hear that with kids.
658. 00:40:40 Like you kids say, I'm bored.
659. 00:40:42 Great.
660. 00:40:43 I've got some work for you to do.
661. 00:40:44 There's stuff on the floor that needs cleaned up.
662. 00:40:46 You can pick up stuff in the kitchen.
663. 00:40:47 You can wash dishes.
664. 00:40:48 I've got wood that needs move from place to place.
665. 00:40:50 Like there's lots of things I can give you to do.
666. 00:40:54 But she even tells the stories here of how she learned to simply wait whenever her kids
667. 00:41:01 would say that because it was not very long before they started doing something creative
668. 00:41:06 and you know, super interesting or fun for themselves because they just made something
669. 00:41:11 up.
670. 00:41:12 They imagined something and were able to learn something.
671. 00:41:15 So boredom is a place where we can be very creative and a lot of great ideas come from.
672. 00:41:21 So a lot of times we think of boredom as a bad thing when in fact it's a very good thing
673. 00:41:26 if you're willing to sit in it and work your way through that.
674. 00:41:31 So boredom was one of them that stood out to me.
675. 00:41:33 The other one was the frustration piece.
676. 00:41:37 And part of that is because I have a bank of things that have royally frustrated me in
677. 00:41:44 recent weeks.
678. 00:41:45 Some of that involves a suburban.
679. 00:41:47 Some of it is just work stuff.
680. 00:41:50 Some of it is just my own choices that I'm not happy with.
681. 00:41:54 And sometimes and a lot of times there are things that are just out of my control that
682. 00:41:59 I feel like I want to change but I can't so I get frustrated by it.
683. 00:42:04 And it's easy to see how that can lead to things like anger and she even calls that
684. 00:42:08 out.
685. 00:42:09 But it's also that just because you're frustrated by something you have to make the choices to
686. 00:42:14 what to do about it.
687. 00:42:15 And whenever you make the choice and start moving towards action in the case instead
688. 00:42:19 of just sitting in the frustration, that's the only real time you're able to get out of
689. 00:42:24 that is to start moving and stop just sitting in it.
690. 00:42:28 So that's that would be the thing that I need to learn.
691. 00:42:31 Because I like to just wallow in the frustration and just be upset about it and make it worse.
692. 00:42:38 When really I need to just get off my tail and go help somebody else with something similar
693. 00:42:43 to get over that.
694. 00:42:45 So don't be like Joe, get up and move on.
695. 00:42:50 Kind of interesting as we talked through this that we think both kind of focus and gravitate
696. 00:42:55 towards the ones where we have failed instead of the ones where we have wins.
697. 00:43:02 Yeah.
698. 00:43:03 But oh yeah, definitely.
699. 00:43:06 I think that's probably natural but it'd be interesting to hear if other people had
700. 00:43:09 that same response as they read through this.
701. 00:43:12 The one that I want to talk about from this section real quickly is disappointment.
702. 00:43:19 And there's a statement here which I think is very powerful on page 50.
703. 00:43:24 She says, "There are too many people in the world today who decide to live disappointed
704. 00:43:28 rather than risk feeling disappointed."
705. 00:43:31 And disappointment is simply unmet expectations.
706. 00:43:33 So that to me sounds a lot like the doorway to resignation.
707. 00:43:39 Like I'm just not even going to try because I might figure out that I can't do it.
708. 00:43:44 And that harkens back to something she said, "I wrote it down in part one but it applies
709. 00:43:48 to a lot of different emotions throughout this book for anxiety which can be either
710. 00:43:53 a trait or a state."
711. 00:43:55 So a lot of these emotions can be either a state which is a temporary condition or become
712. 00:44:01 a trait and be part of our personality.
713. 00:44:04 And I don't remember if she said this directly or not but it seems to me the ones that become
714. 00:44:09 a part of our personality.
715. 00:44:11 Those are conditioned over time.
716. 00:44:12 It's not like you're born with this.
717. 00:44:15 And there are things that you can do to overcome it as you develop your own emotional intelligence
718. 00:44:21 I would think.
719. 00:44:23 But when it comes to disappointment and that harkens to the vulnerability piece that I
720. 00:44:27 talked about from part one, don't not do something because you might fail at it and
721. 00:44:34 you might feel disappointed because if you don't try you will live disappointed for the
722. 00:44:40 rest of your life potentially.
723. 00:44:42 Yeah, that's a good point.
724. 00:44:43 It's very easy to take something that's a temporary emotion and turning it into a long-term
725. 00:44:49 personality trait.
726. 00:44:51 Like you can do that.
727. 00:44:52 Don't do that.
728. 00:44:53 It seems like every single section we end with don't do that.
729. 00:44:57 It's like my kids sometimes they will do something and they hurt themselves and I regularly
730. 00:45:05 joke with trying to lighten the mood in a lot of times that way they don't turn it
731. 00:45:08 into a complete meltdown.
732. 00:45:09 It's like, "Hey, don't do that.
733. 00:45:10 It hurts when you do that."
734. 00:45:12 And I tell them that.
735. 00:45:13 And I remember what it was.
736. 00:45:15 Sometimes over the weekend I did something.
737. 00:45:18 I dropped a hammer or something and it hit me and I'm like, "Ouch."
738. 00:45:21 I made that comment.
739. 00:45:22 It's one of those like, "It more surprised me than anything."
740. 00:45:25 And my oldest Emma just like, "Dad, don't do that.
741. 00:45:28 It hurts when you do that."
742. 00:45:29 I'm like, "Thanks.
743. 00:45:30 Thanks Emma."
744. 00:45:31 Turns out.
745. 00:45:32 I appreciate that.
746. 00:45:33 Thanks for being my parrot.
747. 00:45:34 I appreciate that.
748. 00:45:36 Yeah.
749. 00:45:37 So I guess that brings us to part four.
750. 00:45:41 Yep.
751. 00:45:42 Part four places we go when it's beyond us.
752. 00:45:45 And again, the emotions are all wonder, confusion, curiosity, interest, and surprise.
753. 00:45:54 And I think this is kind of interesting.
754. 00:45:56 These are primarily, I would say, positive as opposed to the first couple sections here.
755. 00:46:02 There's a lot of negative ones.
756. 00:46:03 If you're going to label them positive versus negative.
757. 00:46:08 But when it's beyond us, this is the one that description kind of triggers a negative
758. 00:46:15 response from me because in the natural, I want to control everything.
759. 00:46:22 Very logical, high-fact finder.
760. 00:46:26 This is the thing I want to avoid at all costs, just my personality.
761. 00:46:32 Yeah.
762. 00:46:33 This is where, and I get where she has spent a lot of time trying to pick the words here.
763. 00:46:38 I know that she has been very careful in choosing these.
764. 00:46:41 But like part three is places we go when things don't go as planned.
765. 00:46:45 Places we go when it's beyond us as part four.
766. 00:46:47 If you start looking at those, you could easily get to a point where you say, "Well, those
767. 00:46:52 are kind of the same thing.
768. 00:46:54 If it's beyond us, it didn't go as we thought it would.
769. 00:46:56 But if it didn't go as planned, well, it's beyond us."
770. 00:46:59 Like you could easily make that jump.
771. 00:47:02 But I think what she's getting at is that if it didn't go as planned, it means you had
772. 00:47:05 a preconceived expectation with it.
773. 00:47:09 Whereas when it's beyond us, you had no expectation.
774. 00:47:12 Like she tells the story of her daughter who they were on a lake and she was just kickback
775. 00:47:18 making a picture memory as she called it.
776. 00:47:21 And that is something that created awe in Brené.
777. 00:47:26 So it's just something that you don't expect to see it.
778. 00:47:30 She mentions that these are a lot of times tied to nature, a spiritual experience, something
779. 00:47:36 that's more artistic, I guess.
780. 00:47:39 And I could see how she gets to that point.
781. 00:47:42 But you're right.
782. 00:47:43 These are absolutely more of the, if you had determined more of a positive side.
783. 00:47:47 Any in here that you really want to discuss?
784. 00:47:50 I don't think any more than that.
785. 00:47:52 I mean, it's fairly straightforward on these.
786. 00:47:54 I don't have any of it or like, "I have struggles with this."
787. 00:47:57 Because these are the fun ones.
788. 00:47:59 These aren't painful ones.
789. 00:48:01 They are the fun ones.
790. 00:48:03 I think the one I want to lean into is the curiosity, which again goes in line with the
791. 00:48:08 year of recalibration.
792. 00:48:09 This again is both a trait and a state.
793. 00:48:12 And it involves both feeling and thinking.
794. 00:48:14 It doesn't exist without interest, which is a cognitive openness to engaging with a
795. 00:48:20 topic or experience.
796. 00:48:22 So you combine those and you very much get the state that I described in the beginning.
797. 00:48:32 I think naturally I tend to fall back into the things that I know.
798. 00:48:38 So this is not a natural response for me, but it's something I want to embrace in the
799. 00:48:45 next year.
800. 00:48:46 So hopefully as we continue to read books like this, push me outside my comfort zone.
801. 00:48:53 I can check that as complete.
802. 00:48:54 There you go.
803. 00:48:55 All right.
804. 00:48:56 I've been doing a lot of talking about the emotions.
805. 00:48:57 You want to introduce part five?
806. 00:48:59 Yeah.
807. 00:49:00 So part five places we go when things aren't what they seem.
808. 00:49:03 These are amusement, bittersweetness, nostalgia, cognitive dissonance, paradox, irony, sarcasm.
809. 00:49:11 I have a couple of things here.
810. 00:49:14 One is on sarcasm because this was kind of convicting to me because I tend to be very
811. 00:49:19 sarcastic.
812. 00:49:20 I'm just making extreme comments or twisting words just for fun.
813. 00:49:24 Like I do this.
814. 00:49:25 If you've listened to Bookworm for more than three seconds, you know that Joe tends to
815. 00:49:28 be sarcastic.
816. 00:49:29 And one thing that stood out to me is the fact that kids can't pick that up until what
817. 00:49:36 was it like age 10, nine or 10, something along those lines?
818. 00:49:40 Yeah.
819. 00:49:41 And true.
820. 00:49:42 Yep.
821. 00:49:43 I might be a bad father.
822. 00:49:44 I'm like that crossed my mind whenever I read that.
823. 00:49:47 It's like, I do this all the time and don't even realize I'm doing it.
824. 00:49:51 It's such a thing that's so ingrained in me that I make these comments all the time.
825. 00:49:57 And I'm sure that it frustrates my children.
826. 00:49:59 So that was very convicting to me.
827. 00:50:02 It's like, I was not aware of that.
828. 00:50:04 That never crossed my mind.
829. 00:50:05 I assumed they were picking up what I was getting.
830. 00:50:08 And it makes sense why my almost nine year old is now getting it and starting to be the
831. 00:50:13 same.
832. 00:50:14 And I realize, oh, the other two have no clue.
833. 00:50:18 That might explain why the one gets really upset when I do that once in a while.
834. 00:50:21 So I should probably stop that.
835. 00:50:24 So anyway, that was something that stood out.
836. 00:50:26 The other one was that with nostalgia, did this one strike you?
837. 00:50:30 Because I think of nostalgia as like the quintessential picture I have in my head is the guy who's
838. 00:50:36 at the bar telling some football story from when he was in high school.
839. 00:50:40 And he's reflecting on the thing that he was doing at the time because it was, you know,
840. 00:50:44 the highlight of his life.
841. 00:50:45 Like, that's what I have in my head whenever I think of nostalgia, which anyway, that's
842. 00:50:50 kind of what I saw.
843. 00:50:52 The picture I get is Uncle Rico from Napoleon Dynamite.
844. 00:50:55 Coach would have put your own movements.
845. 00:50:57 Yes.
846. 00:50:58 No doubt.
847. 00:50:59 No doubt in my mind.
848. 00:51:02 I did not realize that the term nostalgia, it comes from two Greek words, nastas and alga.
849. 00:51:09 Alga, which means homecoming and then pain.
850. 00:51:13 The term came from the 1600s when a medical student was dealing with some Swiss soldiers,
851. 00:51:20 I think that were mercenaries that were fighting wars a long ways from home for an extended
852. 00:51:26 amount of time.
853. 00:51:27 And they were literally getting sick from missing home.
854. 00:51:31 And he termed this disease nostalgia.
855. 00:51:35 So nostalgia was an illness.
856. 00:51:38 And today we think of it as just reflecting on the good old days when really the intentional
857. 00:51:45 part of that word is just you are ill.
858. 00:51:48 You need to let that go.
859. 00:51:49 It is painful to be focusing on that, which I don't think actually is the current day
860. 00:51:54 definition of that.
861. 00:51:56 That's the origin of it.
862. 00:51:58 Yeah, I think you're probably right.
863. 00:52:00 And I think I have seen tinges of this, and this is kind of interesting because I see
864. 00:52:06 a lot of parents of kids that are older than ours, whether they are significantly older
865. 00:52:15 than Rachel and I, or just a little bit older, kind of in the same stage of life, but had
866. 00:52:21 children earlier, they will make these comments of like, oh, I remember when little Johnny
867. 00:52:27 was two years old and used to do this.
868. 00:52:30 And man, I really miss that.
869. 00:52:33 And I've never felt like I really miss those days.
870. 00:52:37 I enjoy them when they're happening.
871. 00:52:39 I love the fact that Adelaide can't say marshmallow and says farm fellow instead.
872. 00:52:46 Or because I leave for church early to be on worship team, she's like, dad, you're going
873. 00:52:50 to go to church.
874. 00:52:52 Choch.
875. 00:52:54 And stuff is humorous to me, but as she learns to say words, I don't have that like, aw,
876. 00:53:02 she does it right now.
877. 00:53:03 I don't understand that part of it really, just not the way my brain works.
878. 00:53:09 I mean, I get it like why other people feel that way, but I've kind of fought to not fall
879. 00:53:16 into that myself and just make the most of every moment along the journey so that when
880. 00:53:22 they are older and they leave the house, I don't say, oh, I wish I would have done this
881. 00:53:28 with my kids.
882. 00:53:30 But I think that's a version of this and I can totally see how that kind of, it's not,
883. 00:53:34 doesn't seem like it's real major, but it kind of triggers and some of that negative
884. 00:53:40 sadness and the yearning for the way things used to be.
885. 00:53:42 And if I've learned anything from this book, that can kind of lead you into some dark places
886. 00:53:46 if you're, you're not careful, but you're not guaranteed to go there either.
887. 00:53:50 So I don't think it's like avoid this at all costs, but just kind of interesting.
888. 00:53:55 The other one that I like from this is cognitive dissonance, which again is because this is
889. 00:54:00 in line with my theme.
890. 00:54:02 And this is when you have that state of tension that occurs when you hold two cognitions,
891. 00:54:06 which are ideas, attitudes, beliefs, or opinions that are psychologically inconsistent with each
892. 00:54:11 other as I look to understand things more and can collect models that contradict my current
893. 00:54:21 worldview.
894. 00:54:22 Maybe I know this is going to come with the territory and I'm going to have to wrestle
895. 00:54:26 through this.
896. 00:54:27 But she even says in this section that it's important to invite new information to the
897. 00:54:31 table.
898. 00:54:32 So just the fact that this cognitive dissonance isn't a bad thing unless you tend to run for
899. 00:54:36 the hills when you feel it and avoid those things because they challenge your current
900. 00:54:40 belief systems and your traditions.
901. 00:54:43 I actually think that if you collect contrary opinions and beliefs and you wrestle through
902. 00:54:49 this kind of dissonance, it can actually reinforce your beliefs and make them stronger.
903. 00:54:54 It's kind of like you're tested by fire.
904. 00:54:55 If it's not challenged, it's not very strong.
905. 00:54:57 And the fact that you have to kind of wrestle through and reconcile these things in your
906. 00:55:01 head sometimes is galvanizing.
907. 00:55:03 Yeah, absolutely.
908. 00:55:04 Yeah, if we go to part six here, places we go when we're hurting, this is when we started
909. 00:55:11 to get to points where Joe started crying a lot.
910. 00:55:14 So the emotions underneath of here, anguish, hopelessness, despair, sadness, grief, these
911. 00:55:21 are ones that are very painful to experience.
912. 00:55:26 She tells stories of losing a dog or she told the story of her reaction to something that
913. 00:55:33 happened, but then she didn't actually tell us what happened.
914. 00:55:35 She got a phone call and it was devastating.
915. 00:55:38 She ended up needing to go home when they were on their way to an event church.
916. 00:55:43 I don't remember where they were going, but these are ones that are difficult.
917. 00:55:48 And if I have to summarize all of them because there's a lot and you could go into each one
918. 00:55:53 of these independently and if you want to pick one out, go for it, Mike.
919. 00:55:56 But anguish, hopelessness, despair, sadness, grief, they kind of all work together in
920. 00:56:04 some way or another.
921. 00:56:05 Obviously, I've mentioned before that I work at a church and I run sound and such for funerals.
922. 00:56:09 I've got a really big one coming up on Saturday, which is going to be very painful and I'm
923. 00:56:15 aware of that.
924. 00:56:17 And it's a very big tech thing for me because the funeral is going to be so large, a very
925. 00:56:22 prominent figure in our five state area is having his service at our church.
926. 00:56:30 And it's not something that I take lightly, but at the same time, it means that I've got
927. 00:56:34 close to 25 different people helping me run the thing.
928. 00:56:38 So I've got a lot logistically and technically that I've got to run.
929. 00:56:41 But at the same time, it means that I've got a lot of people helping me run it who are
930. 00:56:45 hurting deeply and have had to work with people who are in such dire straits that it's difficult
931. 00:56:54 for them to make good decisions.
932. 00:56:56 Having read this and realizing how those different emotions impact our decision making process,
933. 00:57:01 which she doesn't spell out specifically, but she at least explains how you get there
934. 00:57:05 and what to do about it in some cases.
935. 00:57:07 But it's been very helpful and informative to me because I have no connection to this
936. 00:57:13 person.
937. 00:57:14 In this case, I'm kind of the clear headed one and can work my way through it, but it
938. 00:57:19 means that a lot of times I have like, okay, settle down.
939. 00:57:21 I understand what you're going through.
940. 00:57:23 Let's set that emotion aside.
941. 00:57:25 Let's focus on the technical right now.
942. 00:57:27 I'm not trying to be insensitive.
943. 00:57:28 We just need to make this decision and then we can process the emotion thing afterwards,
944. 00:57:34 but we don't have time to do that part right now.
945. 00:57:36 But those are two separate things.
946. 00:57:38 So trying to spell that out helps people in this case.
947. 00:57:42 It doesn't always.
948. 00:57:43 That's the absolute worst thing you could do.
949. 00:57:45 You need to stop feeling that emotion because we need to make a decision about that's not
950. 00:57:49 helpful in many, many cases, but in this particular one, it does seem to help folks.
951. 00:57:55 I don't know how I got there.
952. 00:57:56 But anyway, places we go when we're hurting.
953. 00:57:59 Yeah.
954. 00:58:00 The pet thing you'd mentioned, that brought back emotions when our previous dog had to
955. 00:58:07 be put down and it was a very traumatic circumstance when we had a cockapoo.
956. 00:58:17 So cockerspaniel poodle mix about 20 pounds and he was getting older and his back had
957. 00:58:24 been messed up from when he was a, I don't know, must have been like two or three.
958. 00:58:28 We had him on a leash outside and he just like, not a very smart dog, just like took
959. 00:58:33 off and got snapped back when he reached the end of his leash and ended up hurting his
960. 00:58:39 back.
961. 00:58:40 So as he got older, he had some issues and you could tell he was in a lot of pain.
962. 00:58:45 And towards the end, he had trouble walking on his back leg and he would like fall down
963. 00:58:54 and then be in pain and had trouble getting back up.
964. 00:58:58 And I was actually downstairs recording a podcast.
965. 00:59:04 My wife was at the gym.
966. 00:59:06 I think the kids were with him.
967. 00:59:07 He was in his kennel to make sure that he didn't get hurt.
968. 00:59:11 But somehow he got hurt anyways and was freaking out and tried to bite his way out of his cage
969. 00:59:18 and up getting his canine teeth stuck in the grate and just completely freaked out,
970. 00:59:22 like shattered his jaw.
971. 00:59:24 I went upstairs and there's a huge mess.
972. 00:59:27 He took him to the animal hospital and he's already in a ton of pain from his back.
973. 00:59:32 Now his jaw is completely busted.
974. 00:59:35 You know, they put him under to get the grate off and they're like, "Well, what do you
975. 00:59:39 want to do?"
976. 00:59:40 And at that point, I'm like, "Just put him out of his misery."
977. 00:59:45 But it was not anticipated.
978. 00:59:48 Like, we knew it was coming, but we didn't know it was coming then.
979. 00:59:52 And so I remember my wife and I both like days after that.
980. 00:59:56 And we always told ourselves, "It's just a dog."
981. 01:00:00 But we bald like babies and for about two months, like every time I drove past that animal
982. 01:00:07 hospital, the emotions would come back.
983. 01:00:11 So I definitely felt the grief from this section and it kind of surprised me that that would
984. 01:00:19 be triggered so acutely by the loss of a pet.
985. 01:00:23 I always thought, you know, when the dog dies, it's just a dog.
986. 01:00:28 We'll get a new one at some point.
987. 01:00:30 It'll be totally fine.
988. 01:00:32 And the kids were fine, but my wife and I were a mess.
989. 01:00:38 And then it would get re-triggered because they sent his collar back to us.
990. 01:00:45 And so Adelaide was really, really little.
991. 01:00:48 She couldn't even talk, but she found the collar and she would walk around the house
992. 01:00:52 panting like a dog.
993. 01:00:55 And like, because she missed the puppy, but she couldn't say like, "Oh, I missed the dog."
994. 01:01:00 You know, so crazy.
995. 01:01:03 Now I know what to expect for next time, but got a new dog anyways.
996. 01:01:08 My opinion, everybody should have a dog.
997. 01:01:09 You should.
998. 01:01:10 No cats though.
999. 01:01:12 No cats.
1000. 01:01:13 I concur.
1001. 01:01:14 All right, let's go into part seven.
1002. 01:01:18 Places we go with others, the emotions listed here, compassion, pity, empathy, sympathy,
1003. 01:01:25 boundaries and comparative suffering.
1004. 01:01:28 And the one I want to call out, we don't really need to discuss this a whole lot.
1005. 01:01:35 But comparative suffering, I feel this is something that we have all felt with COVID.
1006. 01:01:45 But the idea with comparative suffering is that you compare your situation to somebody
1007. 01:01:51 else's and it's not as bad.
1008. 01:01:53 So you don't feel like you have the right to talk about it.
1009. 01:01:58 And I don't want to discount all of the negative stuff that has happened with COVID and people
1010. 01:02:05 who have lost loved ones.
1011. 01:02:07 I personally haven't done that.
1012. 01:02:10 We've lost some friends.
1013. 01:02:12 Some people that go to our church.
1014. 01:02:14 But I feel like because I haven't had a brother or sister or somebody like kind of unexpected
1015. 01:02:23 that just caught it and totally took them out and completely crushed our world, like
1016. 01:02:30 I don't have the right to talk about it.
1017. 01:02:32 And she would basically say that you got to fight against that.
1018. 01:02:36 And I want to call this out because I feel like I have seen this and just about everybody
1019. 01:02:41 that I know where they always temper their own experiences based off of somebody else
1020. 01:02:47 who has gone through something worse.
1021. 01:02:49 And I feel like that's really dangerous because if you are comparing yourself to somebody
1022. 01:02:55 else who has experienced something worse, then the natural reaction is like, well, I
1023. 01:03:01 don't have it so bad.
1024. 01:03:02 I'm just not going to say anything, which means you don't process that stuff, which
1025. 01:03:05 means it just sits there in festers.
1026. 01:03:08 Like you got to talk about it and just because somebody else went through something completely
1027. 01:03:13 horrible doesn't mean that you don't have some trauma that needs to be processed as
1028. 01:03:19 well.
1029. 01:03:20 Yeah, I think you're absolutely spot on with a comparative suffering because we see it
1030. 01:03:26 everywhere, especially with COVID because it's regularly used as justification for actions
1031. 01:03:33 on both sides of every argument, it seems like.
1032. 01:03:37 So it doesn't seem to matter what your viewpoint is.
1033. 01:03:40 We use that to justify what we're doing.
1034. 01:03:43 But one of the pieces here that I want to call, I'm absolutely comparative suffering
1035. 01:03:47 is a big one right now, but I think empathy is when we can't skip over here.
1036. 01:03:52 And that's because she does bring that up in many of these different, the other emotions
1037. 01:03:57 in this particular part.
1038. 01:03:59 But it's basically the feeling of someone else's emotions and going through that pain
1039. 01:04:04 with them or understanding why they have dealt with things or why they've made the decisions
1040. 01:04:11 that they have.
1041. 01:04:13 And it's one that I feel like we could use an awful lot of right now.
1042. 01:04:18 And nobody seems to want to.
1043. 01:04:20 I shouldn't say nobody.
1044. 01:04:21 That's extreme.
1045. 01:04:22 But a lot of people don't want to do that because it's uncomfortable.
1046. 01:04:26 It's uncomfortable for someone who is a Democrat to sit down with a Republican and try to figure
1047. 01:04:33 out why they think the way they do.
1048. 01:04:35 And vice versa, absolutely.
1049. 01:04:37 It's very difficult for someone on the Republican side to sit down with a Democrat without
1050. 01:04:43 being humiliating to the other person.
1051. 01:04:45 Like, stop it, basically.
1052. 01:04:48 And we struggle to try to understand someone else's decisions because you don't know the
1053. 01:04:54 whole story.
1054. 01:04:55 You don't know what they've gone through.
1055. 01:04:57 You don't know how they got there.
1056. 01:04:58 So it's not something that you can just say, "Well, he's...
1057. 01:05:03 I don't even know what."
1058. 01:05:05 He made a decision about choosing to not be vaccinated, so therefore, obviously, he's
1059. 01:05:10 these 12 things.
1060. 01:05:12 Well, you don't know that whole story.
1061. 01:05:15 And you could flip it easily.
1062. 01:05:17 They chose to be vaccinated.
1063. 01:05:18 So obviously, they are these 25 things.
1064. 01:05:21 Like, that's not true.
1065. 01:05:23 You don't know that.
1066. 01:05:24 So don't make those assumptions because you don't know what they're going through and
1067. 01:05:28 you don't know how they got there.
1068. 01:05:30 So settle down.
1069. 01:05:32 It's okay.
1070. 01:05:34 Ask them questions about how they got there.
1071. 01:05:36 Maybe help them with that decision.
1072. 01:05:38 But don't force the issue.
1073. 01:05:41 Yeah.
1074. 01:05:42 Also, like in the empathy section, there's a whole bunch of empathy misses, she calls,
1075. 01:05:48 which is sympathy, which is, "I feel sorry for you.
1076. 01:05:52 Judgment, you should feel shame.
1077. 01:05:53 Disappointment, you've let me down."
1078. 01:05:55 Discharging discomfort with blame, this feels terrible.
1079. 01:05:58 Who can we blame?
1080. 01:05:59 You.
1081. 01:06:00 Minimize or avoid.
1082. 01:06:02 Let's make this go away.
1083. 01:06:03 Comparing or competing.
1084. 01:06:04 If you think that's bad, which kind of gets into the comparative suffering, speaking the
1085. 01:06:09 truth, empower, don't upset people or make them uncomfortable, any vice-giving or problem-solving.
1086. 01:06:13 I can fix this and I can fix you.
1087. 01:06:16 I really like those statements that go along with those different descriptions.
1088. 01:06:20 I feel that really helps me to understand those.
1089. 01:06:25 Anything else from this section?
1090. 01:06:26 No.
1091. 01:06:27 I think we should go into part eight, which is places we go when we fall short.
1092. 01:06:33 The emotions underneath of this are shame, self-compassion, perfectionism, guilt, humiliation,
1093. 01:06:41 and embarrassment.
1094. 01:06:42 I hesitate to say this, but I feel like this might be one of the most important parts in
1095. 01:06:46 this whole book.
1096. 01:06:47 If you're going to skim this, which I don't think you'll be able to do, but this might
1097. 01:06:51 be the big one.
1098. 01:06:54 There's two in here that really struck me.
1099. 01:06:57 The first one is shame, which I think that's her thing.
1100. 01:07:00 She brings that one up regularly and probably for good reason, but essentially, shame is
1101. 01:07:06 believing that you are a bad person.
1102. 01:07:08 You are focused on yourself and you think you are bad for whatever reason.
1103. 01:07:13 You name it.
1104. 01:07:14 You're flawed.
1105. 01:07:15 There's something wrong with you, even though there's probably not, even if there is, it
1106. 01:07:20 doesn't matter.
1107. 01:07:21 Having that shame does nothing for you that's positive.
1108. 01:07:25 Trying to get past that is a very good thing, but not easy to do at the same time.
1109. 01:07:32 The one that struck me, this might be the one that hit me the most in this entire book.
1110. 01:07:37 That was humiliation.
1111. 01:07:39 I say that because she explains in here how humiliation was a very big part, if not the
1112. 01:07:50 deciding factor, of a bank of what was it, 10 school shootings between 1996 and 1999,
1113. 01:07:59 that the primary emotion behind those was humiliation.
1114. 01:08:04 She goes on to explain how humiliation can lead to aggression and violence and dehumanization
1115. 01:08:12 and humiliating others as a result of that.
1116. 01:08:17 That can come out whenever you have passionate political and cultural beliefs.
1117. 01:08:21 She also says shame and humiliation will never be effective social justice tools because the
1118. 01:08:26 reaction to those is so violent.
1119. 01:08:30 I cannot help but think about how many times you see on social media of people just humiliating
1120. 01:08:38 people as much as they possibly can because they don't have the same views as them.
1121. 01:08:43 If you see what I just said, humiliation leads to violence and aggression, which then leads
1122. 01:08:49 people to humiliating other people, which then leads to aggression and violence.
1123. 01:08:53 Guess what we're doing?
1124. 01:08:55 We've created this big massive circle of being mad at each other and trying to hurt each
1125. 01:09:01 other.
1126. 01:09:02 If you go back to the shadon froyda, wishing ill on other people and being happy when
1127. 01:09:07 it does happen, if you're rejoicing when somebody gets COVID, something is wrong.
1128. 01:09:13 That's the type of thing that we're talking about.
1129. 01:09:16 All of that leads to a perpetual cycle of just horrible, horrible things and actions.
1130. 01:09:23 Yeah, that's a really good point.
1131. 01:09:25 In fact, I jotted down a quote from the section, "Never allow anyone to be humiliated in your
1132. 01:09:30 presence."
1133. 01:09:32 When I initially read this, did not jot down any action items.
1134. 01:09:37 I think I'll make that one.
1135. 01:09:40 There's no way I'll remark that complete, but that's never stopped me before.
1136. 01:09:46 Just kind of a mental reminder that that's important.
1137. 01:09:51 Let the other person say a face.
1138. 01:09:53 I feel like we all have opportunities to practice that.
1139. 01:09:57 The other thing that stood out to me from this section, and this is not nearly as big
1140. 01:10:01 a deal as what you just described, but perfectionism, which is the self-destructive and addictive
1141. 01:10:06 belief system that fuels doing everything perfectly to avoid painful feelings of shame,
1142. 01:10:10 judgment, and blame.
1143. 01:10:12 I feel like we talk about this quite a bit because we're both creators and I feel it's
1144. 01:10:17 easy for people like us who make stuff to fall into this.
1145. 01:10:22 Just a reminder that you are not what you accomplish or what you create and to disconnect
1146. 01:10:29 from the thought of what other people are going to think.
1147. 01:10:32 So much easier said than done.
1148. 01:10:35 I understand that, but good reminder.
1149. 01:10:38 For sure.
1150. 01:10:39 All right.
1151. 01:10:40 Part nine is places we go when we search for connection and the emotions here are belonging
1152. 01:10:49 fitting in.
1153. 01:10:50 Yes, those are different.
1154. 01:10:52 Connection, disconnection, insecurity, invisibility, and loneliness.
1155. 01:10:58 What stood out to you from this section?
1156. 01:11:00 The big ones were belonging and fitting in and the difference between those.
1157. 01:11:05 I mean, I could go on about probably the other five pretty easy, but like you mentioned,
1158. 01:11:10 like it's easy to think of those two as the same belonging and fitting in, but really
1159. 01:11:14 belonging is when you have a group of people who understand you and they accept you for
1160. 01:11:19 who you are, fitting in is when I'm morphing who I am in a situation in order to bolt like
1161. 01:11:26 pseudo belong in a group for a temporary period.
1162. 01:11:31 So if I'm trying to fit in, I'm going to tweak who I am to be in that group.
1163. 01:11:35 Whereas if I'm belonging, I get to be who I truly am and belong in that group.
1164. 01:11:40 So yes, I think that I mean, there's so many different places you could take that, but.
1165. 01:11:43 Yeah, that's a real important distinction.
1166. 01:11:46 And I'm glad that you called that out.
1167. 01:11:48 I'll just add to that.
1168. 01:11:49 I think that there's a connection that happens with the belonging versus the fitting in connection
1169. 01:11:56 is the energy that exists when people feel they are seen, heard and valued when you belong
1170. 01:12:02 and you are accepted because of who you are.
1171. 01:12:06 That is when you are seen when you fit in because you're like everyone else.
1172. 01:12:10 That's kind of when you're invisible.
1173. 01:12:13 She also brings in Maslow's hierarchy of needs here, which from the bottom physiological
1174. 01:12:20 and safety, love and belonging, steam and self actualization.
1175. 01:12:24 And I call that out because I've got this triangle thing that comes from the book embedded
1176. 01:12:30 in my my node file.
1177. 01:12:32 But this is a great example of how she has taken all of these concepts and she has applied
1178. 01:12:38 her own style and put them into the book.
1179. 01:12:42 There's lots of comics and drawings that go along with all this stuff.
1180. 01:12:47 There's some really great ones in this particular section.
1181. 01:12:49 So again, just a call, I guess, to get the hardcover printed version of this book rather
1182. 01:12:56 than the digital one.
1183. 01:12:58 Yeah, goes a long ways.
1184. 01:13:00 All right.
1185. 01:13:01 Part 10 is places we go when our heart is open and the emotions listed here love lovelessness,
1186. 01:13:12 heartbreak, trust, self trust, betrayal, defensiveness, flooding and hurt.
1187. 01:13:20 And this is kind of where we start to realize how much you can get into any one of these
1188. 01:13:25 because trust specifically, she's written books on that.
1189. 01:13:30 Yeah.
1190. 01:13:31 And she's also got like the, how do you define love?
1191. 01:13:36 Good luck.
1192. 01:13:37 Well, that went down and you're going to have lots of people super excited, but there's
1193. 01:13:42 so much that goes with that that it's really tough to define it, which is like there's
1194. 01:13:47 a lot that you could cover on these specific emotions.
1195. 01:13:51 I can't say I have any of these that that really stand out to me other than just the
1196. 01:13:55 fact that collectively, like this one kind of goes back and forth, right?
1197. 01:14:00 So some of these collections are a perceived negative, right?
1198. 01:14:05 When we fall short, all of those could be perceived as negative.
1199. 01:14:11 Whereas if we go back to the one when it's beyond us, all the awe and amazement and such,
1200. 01:14:17 like those are all positives, generally speaking.
1201. 01:14:20 This one, when you open your heart, it's kind of back and forth.
1202. 01:14:24 Like it's, it's a crapshoot.
1203. 01:14:25 Good luck.
1204. 01:14:26 Essentially.
1205. 01:14:27 Some of these are considered positive.
1206. 01:14:30 Some of them are very difficult to deal with.
1207. 01:14:35 Some of them, even though they're difficult or positive to have gone through, right?
1208. 01:14:40 So it does go back and forth.
1209. 01:14:43 So I don't think I have one specific that jumped out to me though.
1210. 01:14:46 The one that kind of jumped out to me was flooding.
1211. 01:14:51 And just because I recognize from reading this section, flooding by the way is a sensation
1212. 01:14:56 of feeling psychologically and physically overwhelmed during conflict, making it virtually impossible
1213. 01:15:01 to have a productive problem solving discussion.
1214. 01:15:04 And the more pressure that we're under, the more likely we are to be flooded.
1215. 01:15:09 So there's only so much that our bodies and our nervous systems can stand before they
1216. 01:15:13 flip the switch and then you stop communicating and you start attacking.
1217. 01:15:16 And I feel like I can, having read this, I can identify points in my life where I have
1218. 01:15:23 felt that.
1219. 01:15:24 But also I feel like the threshold there is maybe different for everybody.
1220. 01:15:29 And also I think there are things that you can do to increase your threshold so you don't
1221. 01:15:35 fall into this as easily.
1222. 01:15:38 So I just want to call that out and point out, I guess, that this is probably something
1223. 01:15:44 we should all work on because when you get to this point, essentially nothing productive
1224. 01:15:51 is going to come from this.
1225. 01:15:52 Yeah.
1226. 01:15:53 I think that probably brings us to part 11 here, places we go when life is good.
1227. 01:16:01 Joy, happiness, calm, contentment, gratitude for boating joy, relief and tranquility.
1228. 01:16:09 And one thing that really jumped out to me here is that she does call out that joy and
1229. 01:16:16 happiness are kind of in two different categories.
1230. 01:16:21 Whereas you have joy is kind of an unexpected short lasting thing.
1231. 01:16:26 Whereas happiness is very difficult for them to define because it's more of like a state
1232. 01:16:30 of being over time.
1233. 01:16:32 It's kind of a seasonal thing that can come and go.
1234. 01:16:35 So it's not really a personality trait or a state as much as it is like a prolonged state,
1235. 01:16:42 which they would say is somewhat different.
1236. 01:16:44 So I hadn't really thought about it that way.
1237. 01:16:46 Because we tend to use joy and happiness interchangeably.
1238. 01:16:50 I just hadn't really thought about it that way.
1239. 01:16:52 There's so much of this, right?
1240. 01:16:54 She just gives you these definitions and gives you the words for how you're feeling in certain
1241. 01:16:59 situations.
1242. 01:17:00 So I'm grateful for that at least.
1243. 01:17:02 Yeah.
1244. 01:17:03 And then she introduces foreboding joy, which is being afraid to lean into good news, wonderful
1245. 01:17:09 moments and joy.
1246. 01:17:13 And I don't know about you, but this hit home for me.
1247. 01:17:18 She says parents experience this a lot with their kids.
1248. 01:17:22 But the basic idea here is that something good happens and you kind of think, oh, this
1249. 01:17:27 is short lived and something bad is going to happen right after this.
1250. 01:17:32 So I don't really know that there's anything to do about that other than to recognize when
1251. 01:17:37 this is happening and label it as, oh, there's that foreboding joy again and recognize it
1252. 01:17:43 for what it is and try to dismiss it.
1253. 01:17:46 The other thing I thought was really cool about this was under calm.
1254. 01:17:51 She says there's two questions about calm as a practice, which is, do I have enough information
1255. 01:17:57 to freak out?
1256. 01:17:58 That's question number one and normally it's no.
1257. 01:18:00 And then number two, we'll freaking out help and that's always no.
1258. 01:18:05 So if you were to create like one of those decision tree diagrams and you looked at this
1259. 01:18:10 every time you got some bad news, for example, and it started triggering that emotion of
1260. 01:18:19 probably anxiety is the thing that would trigger this for me.
1261. 01:18:23 That's state of freaking out.
1262. 01:18:24 You know, that's not one on the list here, but we can picture what that looks like.
1263. 01:18:29 So you start feeling that and then, okay, what were the questions here?
1264. 01:18:34 Walking through those, you would maybe temper that a little bit.
1265. 01:18:38 I'm not sure.
1266. 01:18:39 Maybe I should print that out and hang that up somewhere.
1267. 01:18:42 Sure.
1268. 01:18:43 Sure.
1269. 01:18:44 All right.
1270. 01:18:45 If you go to, unless you get something else here, if you go to part 12, I think it's where
1271. 01:18:51 we're at.
1272. 01:18:52 Yep.
1273. 01:18:53 Places we go when we feel wronged.
1274. 01:18:55 Anger, contempt, disgust, dehumanization, hate, self righteousness.
1275. 01:19:02 And if you remember me talking earlier about, you know, we'll talk about this later because
1276. 01:19:06 it ties into humiliation or discouragement or anger and such like it, it nostalgia to
1277. 01:19:13 some degree.
1278. 01:19:14 Like, if you start to look at each of these in particularly, and I have to say every single
1279. 01:19:21 one of these struck me.
1280. 01:19:22 So I'm probably not going to talk about any of them because of that.
1281. 01:19:27 But if you think about so much, and obviously she's writing this in the middle of the pandemic.
1282. 01:19:31 So she brings up COVID quite a bit inside of that, which is maybe why we've talked about
1283. 01:19:36 it more than we normally would on this show.
1284. 01:19:38 But when you get into things like contempt or disgust, dehumanization, like trying to
1285. 01:19:46 give the other a different name that's like rats and such, like they talk about how, well,
1286. 01:19:52 that's what Hitler did.
1287. 01:19:54 So if you are doing things like that, you're on the same track as Hitler.
1288. 01:20:00 So keep that in mind.
1289. 01:20:02 If you do these things.
1290. 01:20:05 It's tough to read any of these and not think of something that's gone on politically or
1291. 01:20:14 socially.
1292. 01:20:15 But that I feel like is the obvious direction to take this.
1293. 01:20:18 Like it's very simple to say, here's what our political landscape is.
1294. 01:20:22 Here's how each of these anger, contempt, disgust, dehumanization, hate and self righteousness.
1295. 01:20:27 Like these are all happening on every side of the party, on either party.
1296. 01:20:33 But again, that's the easy way.
1297. 01:20:35 If you think about your day to day and even your past, when these have come up in yourself,
1298. 01:20:43 this is a little more humbling and a lot more difficult to just skip past and just say,
1299. 01:20:50 oh, yeah, they're crazy.
1300. 01:20:52 And I don't want to deal with, I don't want to get into politics because they're all like,
1301. 01:20:55 you can do that.
1302. 01:20:56 But if you try to think about how you've been angry with someone or something that has caused
1303. 01:21:04 contempt in yourself, this gets a lot more real.
1304. 01:21:08 And I have thought of, as I've been talking here, it's like, I've thought about three
1305. 01:21:11 or four different examples, none of which I can share.
1306. 01:21:14 But I wish I could, because I would solidify this a little more.
1307. 01:21:18 But it's something that's a lot more difficult to process, I think.
1308. 01:21:23 Still a good thing to process, but not as simple to just skip past.
1309. 01:21:28 Yeah.
1310. 01:21:29 There's a lot to be dissected here.
1311. 01:21:32 One of the coolest visuals in the book, I think, is the Four Horsemen of contempt that she
1312. 01:21:40 talks about in this section, which she's got a cool graphic here, criticism, defensiveness,
1313. 01:21:48 contempt and stone walling, and then kind of the how to stop them.
1314. 01:21:56 So contempt, which is, I'm better than you, you're less than me, for example, you can
1315. 01:22:03 describe your own feelings and needs without putting yourself on a pedestal above somebody
1316. 01:22:09 else.
1317. 01:22:11 This is a lot of, I don't think anybody really lives their whole life in this section.
1318. 01:22:18 I'm sure there are people.
1319. 01:22:20 But the growth-minded people who listen to bookworm probably dip their toes in these
1320. 01:22:25 waters every once in a while, but can navigate their way out of them.
1321. 01:22:31 I feel like there are a lot of good tips for what to do when in this particular section.
1322. 01:22:38 For example, it's talking about anger, if that's a good emotional indicator, it's kind
1323. 01:22:43 of like the check engine light on your car.
1324. 01:22:46 So when you're feeling angry, she talks about that being a full contact action emotion,
1325. 01:22:52 you're ready to put up the dukes, then that's a good point to look inside and say, "Why
1326. 01:22:59 do I feel this way?"
1327. 01:23:01 And then again, that very effective metaphor of being on a journey and being a map maker,
1328. 01:23:10 you can realize, "Okay, I'm heading towards the bad place, and how do I make a course
1329. 01:23:14 correction and head towards a good place instead?"
1330. 01:23:17 Yeah, for sure.
1331. 01:23:18 Should we go to the last section?
1332. 01:23:20 Yes, let's do it.
1333. 01:23:23 So the last section is part 13, places we go to self-assess.
1334. 01:23:32 Just a couple of them here, pride, hubris, and humility.
1335. 01:23:37 Anything you want to talk about specifically from this section?
1336. 01:23:40 I think the only thing that really wants me, that I want to mention is just that pride
1337. 01:23:45 isn't necessarily bad because I think we have that connotation.
1338. 01:23:51 It's easy to say, "Don't be so prideful."
1339. 01:23:55 When people say that, there's always the connotation of you're puffing yourself up too
1340. 01:24:00 much, that sort of thing, pride comes before the fall.
1341. 01:24:04 The way she defines it, pride is a feeling of pleasure or celebration related to our
1342. 01:24:10 accomplishments or efforts.
1343. 01:24:12 I know that pride generally has a negative connotation.
1344. 01:24:15 There are some words that just have that tied to them, but it's hard to remember that there
1345. 01:24:22 are good forms of pride sometimes.
1346. 01:24:25 If you've done something and you've been successful at it, it's okay to be happy and glad that
1347. 01:24:32 you were able to achieve that.
1348. 01:24:36 I think it gets to be on the negative side when you start bringing it up all the time
1349. 01:24:41 and you make a point of making sure that other people know that you did a good job.
1350. 01:24:44 That starts to get into different territory when you start doing that.
1351. 01:24:48 Don't go that far with it, but just keep in mind, it is okay to be happy about success.
1352. 01:24:53 That's all right.
1353. 01:24:54 I think the point where things get negative with pride is when it flips from a trait to
1354. 01:25:06 a state, or vice versa, sorry, I messed those up.
1355. 01:25:09 State is the temporary condition.
1356. 01:25:11 Trait is the part of your personality.
1357. 01:25:13 If pride is a temporary celebration of something good that you've done, that's fine.
1358. 01:25:18 You need to celebrate your wins.
1359. 01:25:21 When you stay there, that's when I think it can translate into hubris, which is an inflated
1360. 01:25:27 sense of one's own innate abilities.
1361. 01:25:28 It's tied to the need for dominance, then two actual accomplishments, and you tend to
1362. 01:25:32 go back and celebrate the fact that, oh, I did this one thing one time.
1363. 01:25:37 Being willing to disconnect from something after a little wet.
1364. 01:25:43 Whether something good happens or something bad happens.
1365. 01:25:46 Grieve for a little while, celebrate for a little while, but then be willing to move on.
1366. 01:25:51 Set up camp there.
1367. 01:25:53 I think the most powerful thing for me in this entire book was one sentence from the
1368. 01:26:00 section on humility, which is kind of how she ends the book, or that part of the book
1369. 01:26:06 anyways.
1370. 01:26:07 There's a couple of things in the very end of it, kind of as a reference, but she has
1371. 01:26:12 this sentence that says, "I'm here to get it right, not to be right."
1372. 01:26:17 If I were to summarize my life in a single sentence, that's very appropriate.
1373. 01:26:23 I think I might steal that.
1374. 01:26:25 She mentions that as far as how she conducts her research.
1375. 01:26:31 The goal isn't to make your opinions and your hypotheses correct.
1376. 01:26:36 It's to figure out what is correct.
1377. 01:26:39 That's essentially what she's getting at there.
1378. 01:26:41 Absolutely.
1379. 01:26:42 That's a tough one to grapple with though, too.
1380. 01:26:45 Totally.
1381. 01:26:46 You have to be able to recognize that what you do and how you feel based on what you've
1382. 01:26:53 done, probably.
1383. 01:26:55 That does not define you as a person.
1384. 01:27:00 You're constantly trying to, I would hope, this is kind of my mindset.
1385. 01:27:07 I'm pretty sure it's your mindset.
1386. 01:27:09 Probably most of the people in the bookworms mindset that we have not arrived and we want
1387. 01:27:15 to continue to do better with what we have.
1388. 01:27:19 Keep going, keep growing, permanent beta, however you want to define it.
1389. 01:27:24 But none of us have achieved our final state and ultimately, that is a good thing.
1390. 01:27:30 Again, harkening back to the mindset book.
1391. 01:27:32 It's amazing how much of this stuff we read now harkens back to mindset.
1392. 01:27:37 Yeah, it's like the foundation that the others build on.
1393. 01:27:40 Yep.
1394. 01:27:41 Well, you got any action items from this book?
1395. 01:27:43 You better.
1396. 01:27:48 I don't even know.
1397. 01:27:49 It's so many places I could take it and so many things I could write down.
1398. 01:27:56 I've been sitting on this completed for about four or five days now.
1399. 01:28:02 It continues to come up regularly, things that I should be better at doing or understand
1400. 01:28:09 better.
1401. 01:28:10 None of which have to do with my kids, but I haven't nailed any of it down to this is
1402. 01:28:16 a thing I'm going to do other than just be aware of what's going on and be willing to
1403. 01:28:22 process emotions out loud.
1404. 01:28:24 But that's not something I do naturally.
1405. 01:28:27 So there's that piece there.
1406. 01:28:29 But I have no idea how to even make that an action item other than just do better.
1407. 01:28:33 So do better, I guess.
1408. 01:28:36 I don't know.
1409. 01:28:37 All right, adding it to the list for follow up.
1410. 01:28:41 We'll have two ridiculous action items to cover for follow up next time.
1411. 01:28:47 Joe's do better and then mine is never allow anyone to be humiliated in my presence.
1412. 01:28:53 That was not when I jotted down ahead of time because there really aren't any real action
1413. 01:28:57 items from this book.
1414. 01:29:00 But there's lots of things that you can recognize.
1415. 01:29:03 But next time I'm in this situation, this is the tactic and this is the one as we were
1416. 01:29:08 discussing it that really jumped out to me.
1417. 01:29:12 Like, I want to make sure this does not happen in any of the situations that I may find myself
1418. 01:29:18 in.
1419. 01:29:19 I feel like I tend to fight for people who feel this way anyways, just because based on
1420. 01:29:27 the emotional intelligence assessments I've taken, I tend to have high empathy.
1421. 01:29:32 So I do feel that when people are humiliated and I want to alleviate that.
1422. 01:29:38 But this is a good reminder.
1423. 01:29:41 Even if you try to do it but it doesn't happen, keep fighting for it.
1424. 01:29:46 Don't let it end in that state.
1425. 01:29:49 We have this phrase that we use with our kids always, "end on a win."
1426. 01:29:53 You take them somewhere and they're having fun and they're getting crazy.
1427. 01:29:56 That's about the time I look at my wife and we've got this signal, you know, like, "wrap
1428. 01:30:01 it up."
1429. 01:30:02 Because if we stay here too much longer, somebody's going to get hurt and they'll be tears and
1430. 01:30:09 that just ruins the whole experience, you know?
1431. 01:30:12 Yep.
1432. 01:30:13 Yep.
1433. 01:30:14 So.
1434. 01:30:15 All right.
1435. 01:30:16 Style and rating, this is my book.
1436. 01:30:19 So I go first.
1437. 01:30:22 The style I mentioned a little bit at the beginning, this is totally unique to just about
1438. 01:30:26 everything that we have ever read for Bookworm but it is also totally awesome.
1439. 01:30:33 It's definitely get the hardcover version.
1440. 01:30:36 Don't just listen to it.
1441. 01:30:37 Don't get the ebook version because it is a beautiful book.
1442. 01:30:43 It is a reference work.
1443. 01:30:44 It's almost like a coffee table type book.
1444. 01:30:46 Even the cover looks great but the visual design is awesome.
1445. 01:30:50 There's a lot of original graphics.
1446. 01:30:51 It's a very pleasing, fairly minimalistic, I would say, visual style for a lot of the
1447. 01:30:58 diagrams and the comics and things that are in here but really, really well done.
1448. 01:31:03 The other unique thing about this, as I mentioned at the beginning, is it's a combination of
1449. 01:31:07 the research that she's done which is a ton and personal experiences and stories which
1450. 01:31:14 I feel are very, very effective in helping you understand and even feel some of these
1451. 01:31:22 emotions.
1452. 01:31:23 Now, that being said, you have to recognize that you might be wrecked when you pick this
1453. 01:31:29 book up.
1454. 01:31:30 If you're just going to grab this book and crank through it like we did, you're going
1455. 01:31:37 to uncover some things and that's not a bad thing but you have to be willing to wrestle
1456. 01:31:43 through some of that stuff.
1457. 01:31:45 If you're looking for a positive pick-me-up type book, this is not the one but if you
1458. 01:31:52 are embracing the continuous improvement, personal growth and you're looking for something
1459. 01:31:58 that will give you a more extensive vocabulary for describing and dealing with these emotions
1460. 01:32:03 which is important because as she described back in the introduction, that's part of the
1461. 01:32:06 healing process, then this is absolutely a phenomenal book.
1462. 01:32:11 Here's a reason this is like number one bestseller everywhere that you look.
1463. 01:32:17 Brene Brown, I feel is like the only person who could have written this book.
1464. 01:32:23 So I haven't read a whole lot of her other books.
1465. 01:32:27 We did cover Daring Greatly back in the day and this does not read like any of the other
1466. 01:32:34 books that she has written probably would be my guest.
1467. 01:32:38 It's like little snippets of things but it very quickly moves on to the next thing because
1468. 01:32:45 there's 87 different emotions that she's trying to cover here.
1469. 01:32:50 I would definitely rate this five stars though.
1470. 01:32:53 I feel like this is one of those books that for people who listen to bookworm, this is
1471. 01:32:59 an essential piece for your library and it is something that you will not only benefit
1472. 01:33:06 from reading through, it is something that you will probably go back to again and again.
1473. 01:33:13 Just knowing some of the things that are in here, I feel like the next time I find myself
1474. 01:33:19 in one of those places, I will probably reach for this book and go back and reread that section
1475. 01:33:25 and be like, "Oh yeah, these are the things that got me to this place and this is the
1476. 01:33:30 way out."
1477. 01:33:32 And I feel that's going to have phenomenal value.
1478. 01:33:36 I mean, if there is a single book from the entire bookworm library that we have read,
1479. 01:33:43 that if you were to somehow figure out the amount of future value per dollar that you
1480. 01:33:51 paid, this one probably is off the charts, the top one on that list.
1481. 01:33:57 I don't think there's anything in here that specifically, like an action item that is
1482. 01:34:02 going to change my life, but I feel that some total of all of the things that she discussed
1483. 01:34:08 definitely will.
1484. 01:34:10 Time be told, whether that proves true or not, but it just feels like one of those things
1485. 01:34:16 that's going to pay dividends for the rest of your life once you understand.
1486. 01:34:21 There's a whole bunch more here than Mad, Sad, and Glad.
1487. 01:34:24 Yeah, by far.
1488. 01:34:26 I think that when I picked this up, one of the first things I tend to do thanks to how
1489. 01:34:33 to read a book, thank you, Adler, and I looked through the table of contents at the beginning
1490. 01:34:39 and just saw places we go win and saw that that's how she had each part laid out.
1491. 01:34:46 It's like, "Oh, well that's what she means by Atlas of the heart."
1492. 01:34:49 Well, then underneath of that, you see all the emotions and I started flipping through
1493. 01:34:53 the book and was seeing some of the definitions before I even started reading it.
1494. 01:34:57 I remember setting it down.
1495. 01:34:59 I had a cup of tea with me at the time and I took a sip of the tea and I looked out the
1496. 01:35:04 window and I told one of my daughters.
1497. 01:35:08 I don't remember which one it was.
1498. 01:35:10 This one's going to be hard to read, not from a difficulty of writing stance because
1499. 01:35:16 Brown does an amazing job of telling stories, of laying out the facts, the research.
1500. 01:35:25 She's amazing at that and can do some pretty extensive explanations in very short spans
1501. 01:35:32 for paragraphs and sentences and such.
1502. 01:35:34 She does an excellent job at writing.
1503. 01:35:37 You can tell she's spent a lot of time with this book and you can tell this is, I don't
1504. 01:35:42 want to say this is one of her life's work pieces because I don't know that she would
1505. 01:35:46 say that, but it feels that way to me.
1506. 01:35:49 She's done so much over the last 25, maybe approaching 30 years of research that she
1507. 01:35:56 has put into this, that it's easy to see how this is a culmination of a lot in her life
1508. 01:36:03 and it's very easy to read from a technical stance.
1509. 01:36:08 It's very difficult to read from an emotional stance, I find.
1510. 01:36:11 Again, that's me.
1511. 01:36:12 Like Mike said, you're going to get wrecked.
1512. 01:36:14 You don't do this for fun.
1513. 01:36:16 You do this because it's good for you.
1514. 01:36:18 But as Mike is saying, you absolutely need to pick this up.
1515. 01:36:23 It is most certainly a 5.0.
1516. 01:36:24 I don't know how I could not join you on that, but this is something you have to pick up
1517. 01:36:30 and I will echo Mike's sentiments.
1518. 01:36:33 Skip the Kindle, skip the audiobook.
1519. 01:36:34 You got to pick up the hardback.
1520. 01:36:38 The one and only complaint I have with that hardback is it's a little weird to write in
1521. 01:36:42 because they used a little more of a glossy page than they normally would in a book,
1522. 01:36:46 which makes it a little more difficult to underline a write-in, which I tend to do.
1523. 01:36:51 So just be aware of that, but that's a fairly minor point because it's not actually that
1524. 01:36:56 bad.
1525. 01:36:58 It's just a little bit less easy than others.
1526. 01:37:01 So anyway, that's the only thing I have to say against it, but that is it.
1527. 01:37:06 Outside of that, this is one that you made the comment, like maybe this goes on a coffee
1528. 01:37:10 table.
1529. 01:37:11 But I was processing that.
1530. 01:37:13 It's actually a really good idea because this is something atlas of the heart.
1531. 01:37:17 It's one of those things that will draw you in.
1532. 01:37:19 It's like, "What do you mean by that?"
1533. 01:37:21 And you pick it up and then you can start flipping through it.
1534. 01:37:23 It's easy for someone to catch up on something very quickly.
1535. 01:37:27 Like, "Oh, what does she say about anger?"
1536. 01:37:29 And you can flip over there and you can get the gist of what she's talking about in the
1537. 01:37:33 span of a minute.
1538. 01:37:34 It does not take long to get the definition and figure out what she's talking about.
1539. 01:37:38 If you're just skimming, you can get a lot just from skimming this book, but it's going
1540. 01:37:43 to take some time to actually read it emotionally, I think.
1541. 01:37:46 So please pick this up.
1542. 01:37:49 You got to read this one.
1543. 01:37:50 If you haven't read other bookworm books and you just use us to skip the reading part,
1544. 01:37:55 don't do that on this one because there's a lot we did not cover.
1545. 01:37:58 There's two ones we didn't talk about and we just skipped over.
1546. 01:38:02 So you'll definitely get value out of it.
1547. 01:38:04 So for sure, pick this one up.
1548. 01:38:07 Alright, so let's put Atlas of the Heart on the shelf.
1549. 01:38:12 What's next, Joe?
1550. 01:38:13 Yeah, so the one up next is "How to Change" by Katie Milkman.
1551. 01:38:19 And this comes on my side, kind of off the heels of one of your last books, which was
1552. 01:38:23 the 4,000 weeks.
1553. 01:38:24 It's like, "Okay, well, how do we think about what we're doing for change and what are
1554. 01:38:30 good ways to do this?"
1555. 01:38:31 You and I have flipped categories here recently.
1556. 01:38:34 I don't know what that is.
1557. 01:38:36 So trying to figure out, "Okay, well, what's some of the science say around, like, how
1558. 01:38:39 do you make changes to your life?"
1559. 01:38:41 That's kind of what I'm going for here.
1560. 01:38:43 And then after that, what are you doing, Mike?
1561. 01:38:46 After that, I'm going to force you to help me complete my action item for this time and
1562. 01:38:52 collect more models and read through personal Socrates by Mark Champagne.
1563. 01:38:58 This is a book I had mentioned previously.
1564. 01:39:00 I had picked it up.
1565. 01:39:01 I gifted it to people, I've started it, but I have not gone through it completely.
1566. 01:39:06 But I feel this is going to lead to some great discussion.
1567. 01:39:12 Again, not your typical bookworm book, couple of sections, 10 chapters, et cetera.
1568. 01:39:19 So we'll have to get creative in how we go through this one.
1569. 01:39:23 But I feel like the discussion from this is going to be great.
1570. 01:39:26 And from the moment I cracked it open, I knew we were going to talk about this at some time.
1571. 01:39:31 And having talked through the year of recalibration and the action item from this time, and especially
1572. 01:39:39 the discussion after this and embracing the things that we typically don't naturally gravitate
1573. 01:39:47 towards, I feel like this is the right time for this book as well.
1574. 01:39:52 For me personally, but I also think you're going to really enjoy it.
1575. 01:39:55 So that's what we'll do next.
1576. 01:39:57 All right, you got any gap books?
1577. 01:39:59 No, I've been busy with insurance.
1578. 01:40:02 And now I get the honors of trying to buy a vehicle.
1579. 01:40:04 So that's what I'm in the middle of.
1580. 01:40:06 Any extra waking moment that I have, that's where it's been going lately.
1581. 01:40:10 So no, unfortunately.
1582. 01:40:13 Fair enough.
1583. 01:40:14 You?
1584. 01:40:15 I do have a gap book which I have started, but then put down because I did not like it.
1585. 01:40:23 And that is the pleasures of reading in an age of distraction by Alan Jacobs.
1586. 01:40:28 That's kind of disappointed.
1587. 01:40:29 I didn't enjoy this one, but just the, I got like three, fours of the way through it and
1588. 01:40:35 just couldn't finish it.
1589. 01:40:37 Just the style of it did not really resonate for me.
1590. 01:40:42 He's a professor and he's kind of extolling the virtues of the Mortimer Adler book at the
1591. 01:40:49 beginning, but then it kind of drifts into a whole bunch of personal opinion that didn't
1592. 01:40:56 really hit with me.
1593. 01:40:58 So that brings up an important point though, which is why I wanted to talk about it a
1594. 01:41:03 little bit is that it, for bookworm, we pick books and we have to read them because we're
1595. 01:41:08 going to have a discussion on the entire book.
1596. 01:41:11 And there are some books that I'm very grateful for having muscled through, but there are so
1597. 01:41:15 many books in the world.
1598. 01:41:17 Yes.
1599. 01:41:18 So many books that I want to read that if one just isn't doing it for you, be willing
1600. 01:41:25 to let it go and go read something else because what will happen if you continue to force
1601. 01:41:30 yourself to read books that you don't like is that you're just going to not like reading.
1602. 01:41:36 And eventually you're going to stop reading.
1603. 01:41:39 And that's not a good place.
1604. 01:41:41 Yeah, that's fair.
1605. 01:41:43 Or if you muscled through things, you challenge yourself to stick with things when they're
1606. 01:41:49 difficult or you potentially learn something that you weren't expecting to learn and it
1607. 01:41:54 challenges your viewpoints.
1608. 01:41:55 Like there's that side of it as well.
1609. 01:41:57 So just because you don't agree with something or don't like it doesn't necessarily mean
1610. 01:42:01 it's a blanket stop, but just like you got to float that line a little bit.
1611. 01:42:07 It's not a easy answer.
1612. 01:42:08 Yeah, you got to temper it.
1613. 01:42:09 So if you're reading something you don't like then go read something you do like and that's
1614. 01:42:15 kind of his advice from that book, which is kind of interesting.
1615. 01:42:19 Maybe that's where I felt the permission to set that one down.
1616. 01:42:23 But just was not doing it for me.
1617. 01:42:25 It's like a collection of essays and just the whole style sounds very, I don't know,
1618. 01:42:30 I don't want to be negative.
1619. 01:42:31 Maybe other people really like that.
1620. 01:42:33 That's okay.
1621. 01:42:34 We'll just leave it there.
1622. 01:42:35 Okay.
1623. 01:42:36 It's kind of a challenging one.
1624. 01:42:38 I did finish it, but that was I don't remember why it's a fairly short book.
1625. 01:42:43 It's not super long.
1626. 01:42:44 It is.
1627. 01:42:45 Yeah.
1628. 01:42:46 Yeah.
1629. 01:42:47 All right.
1630. 01:42:48 So thank you to everybody who showed up and attended live.
1631. 01:42:50 We actually have a pretty happening discussion in the YouTube chat here.
1632. 01:42:55 So if you want to join us there'll be links to all that stuff in the show notes.
1633. 01:43:00 Joe always tweets out from the Bookworm FM account on Twitter when we are going to
1634. 01:43:05 go live and has the link.
1635. 01:43:07 So thanks to everybody who did that.
1636. 01:43:10 Thanks especially to the Bookworm Club Premium members who pay five bucks a month to help
1637. 01:43:15 us keep the lights on.
1638. 01:43:17 Really means a lot to both Joe and I.
1639. 01:43:18 It's the only way that we make money from the podcast and it's not a lot of money, but
1640. 01:43:23 it pays for the servers and buys us a couple of books.
1641. 01:43:28 So thank you so much for those of you who support our work directly.
1642. 01:43:31 The link to do that I believe is bookworm.fm/membership.
1643. 01:43:35 Again, link in the show notes.
1644. 01:43:37 When you do sign up, you get access to a few perks.
1645. 01:43:41 A wallpaper that I created, some gap episodes that Joe's recorded over the years.
1646. 01:43:48 And probably the big thing at this point, I assume you're okay with me framing it that
1647. 01:43:53 way because I do update this periodically is all of the book notes that I do take.
1648. 01:43:58 I upload those as both PDF files and my node files.
1649. 01:44:01 So you can use my node like I do to take notes on books.
1650. 01:44:03 You can download those and use that as the jumping off point for taking the book notes
1651. 01:44:09 yourself, which I never anticipated that people would actually want to do, but get a
1652. 01:44:15 lot of requests for that kind of stuff.
1653. 01:44:16 So all that stuff is in the club.
1654. 01:44:19 And again, if you want to join bookworm.fm/membership.
1655. 01:44:23 Yeah, you're not out of line with the whole.
1656. 01:44:25 The big perk is Mike's stuff, all his notes.
1657. 01:44:28 By far, that's the best part of the club for sure.
1658. 01:44:32 So definitely go join if you're interested in that.
1659. 01:44:34 And if you're one of those amazing people who's reading along like Martin, you need to pick
1660. 01:44:38 up how to change by Katie Milkman.
1661. 01:44:41 And we'll go through that one with you in a couple of weeks.