138: How to Change by Katy Milkman

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1. 00:00:00 So I have fun updating news about stolen vehicle mic do tell I put a deposit on a new one
2. 00:00:06 All right, when do you get it? So?
3. 00:00:09 after all the fun
4. 00:00:12 Moving money around stuff is done. I can be done with this whole stolen vehicle thing, which will make Joe happy
5. 00:00:19 Yeah, that's never fun to to deal with glad you're getting to the end of it though
6. 00:00:23 Yeah, which was I think it was last time we had to
7. 00:00:27 Move recording because I was having a fun fight with insurance. So thankfully we're not doing that anymore
8. 00:00:32 And we can move on with life. So there you go
9. 00:00:35 fun update on Joe's life
10. 00:00:37 When do you get your new vehicle? I know that they are a little bit harder to find at the moment
11. 00:00:43 That might be an understatement. So
12. 00:00:46 The place I'm getting it from is actually they they ship them in from out of state like they're buying them
13. 00:00:54 from saltless
14. 00:00:56 States is the way that they put them because you know in Minnesota
15. 00:01:00 We like to salt our roads. So every vehicle in the road up here has fairly significant amount of rust after about
16. 00:01:07 six months of them existing and
17. 00:01:10 These don't really have that problem at all. So that's a benefit there and
18. 00:01:16 I'm grateful for that. Anyway, they're buying them out of state and bringing them in because they don't exist up here
19. 00:01:21 That's how it goes. All right, but basically pay a premium if you want a vehicle at all
20. 00:01:27 That's the name of the game right now. Yeah, I know someone who got in an accident with a mini van
21. 00:01:35 And they got the insurance sorted out, but they could not find a replacement mini van
22. 00:01:41 So they had to actually buy a new one and it's not going to be delivered for
23. 00:01:46 several weeks and insurance is no longer paying for a
24. 00:01:51 rental vehicle, so they're a family with four kids and down to a single sedan
25. 00:01:58 Yeah, yeah, I hear you yeah right now. I've got two Nissan Altamas one is mine
26. 00:02:04 The other is a rental and when you're used to having a suburban a Nissan Altama is less than ideal
27. 00:02:10 Yeah, just not my preference of
28. 00:02:13 Exciting vehicles to own so anyway, we don't need a winter in Minnesota. Yeah, we don't need to like belabor on about
29. 00:02:20 Vehicles, but anyway fun update on Joe's life. So let's do
30. 00:02:23 Do some follow-up. I have a couple of them here one of them was do better. How's that going? I?
31. 00:02:30 Think that's okay. I think I'm doing better. I don't have any idea, but I will continue to do my best to do better. I
32. 00:02:37 Love that you put it in the eyes
33. 00:02:41 I probably captured it that way with the intention of going back and updating it with context from the last
34. 00:02:48 episode, but I didn't do that
35. 00:02:50 It was a good one it was entertaining to see it like that anyway, basically I'm paying attention to
36. 00:02:59 how I operate in general and
37. 00:03:02 Trying to just evaluate
38. 00:03:05 like emotions the actions that come from those and
39. 00:03:08 What can I do to be a better person with those so that's kind of what we're at but it's more of an observational
40. 00:03:17 Task than anything. So there's that one the second one
41. 00:03:20 Which is way more fun to talk about is to work on this task management system
42. 00:03:24 Diagram and I sent you a link to this and a pictures in the outline
43. 00:03:29 You can share this if you want in the outline mic
44. 00:03:32 It's probably gonna keep changing though because even as I was capturing the screenshot to share it with you
45. 00:03:37 I realized there's a whole layer of things. I don't have in here
46. 00:03:40 So it's probably gonna change over time
47. 00:03:44 Me and realize like didn't even realize how much was gonna go into this
48. 00:03:49 What I have here is fairly basic and we'll get even more advanced and complex over time. So there's that hopefully it makes sense
49. 00:03:56 Makes sense to me. It's
50. 00:03:59 too long to share apparently in the
51. 00:04:02 Chat because there's a 200 character limit in YouTube
52. 00:04:08 but it'll be in the show notes for the published episode and
53. 00:04:12 I'm not surprised that this ended up being more complicated than you
54. 00:04:16 Thought it was going to be that's kind of the point. I guess it's very much in line with the process for like the personal retreat
55. 00:04:25 Stuff that I do it sounds really simple and then you sit down
56. 00:04:29 You're like, oh, I'm just gonna ask these three questions all day
57. 00:04:31 Well, I don't need all day to do that and you can rationalize like I'm just gonna
58. 00:04:35 Do this quick and then you get into it. You're like, there is no way I can do this quick
59. 00:04:39 But there is a lot of value and clarity. I think that comes from from doing this
60. 00:04:44 So what was the big takeaway from you from putting this diagram together?
61. 00:04:48 Is there any sort of way that this helped you in your day-to-day workflow?
62. 00:04:53 As far as helping me day-to-day, I don't I don't know that it's had anything major
63. 00:04:58 There's been one minor thing that came about because if you look at this diagram one of the things that you'll see is
64. 00:05:04 There's a task list
65. 00:05:06 Database in it which is like your central stock if you want to use the system terms and then whenever I complete things
66. 00:05:13 It goes into this success bucket. Basically. I got it done. Yay. Joe did a thing
67. 00:05:17 However, when it hits that point, it's very common that whenever that task is done
68. 00:05:23 I need to communicate that it's done in some form whether that's to my wife to somebody I work with or
69. 00:05:30 Whoever requested the task to be done. I need to let my staff know what the new protocol is on something like these are all things that I have to do
70. 00:05:37 After a task is complete and I've learned that that is actually a very critical step in
71. 00:05:44 Knowing how to do that well
72. 00:05:46 Because if I don't do that
73. 00:05:48 Like sub meta task that goes with it if I don't do that one really well
74. 00:05:52 If you notice in the chart it is usually communicated via email, but then that email bucket
75. 00:05:59 often generates new tasks
76. 00:06:01 so if I don't do that one well it automatically leads to compound tasks as I've started calling them because I
77. 00:06:09 Did the one thing and now it's led to a
78. 00:06:12 Whole new realm of tasks that are starting to come back to me that I have to watch out for so
79. 00:06:17 That is less than ideal
80. 00:06:19 But it means that it's at least exposed a potential pain point that I'm not sure I realized was a pain point
81. 00:06:25 Like I knew this was a thing that if I didn't do this well, it was
82. 00:06:29 Potentially gonna lead to even more work for me
83. 00:06:31 But I didn't realize how immediate that was until I saw it on this graph. So sure be smart with how I communicate that something's done basically
84. 00:06:40 yeah, that's a really good point and
85. 00:06:43 maybe is
86. 00:06:46 Something that you don't have to deal with in certain situations
87. 00:06:50 But you do with others and really the beauty of putting this diagram together
88. 00:06:54 I guess is realizing in what scenarios you need to do that because in a typical task management diagram
89. 00:07:00 You get to the end you check the task is completed and you think that's the end, but it's not in some cases
90. 00:07:06 So cool. Are you glad you did it?
91. 00:07:10 Well, I'm still working on it because like I said, there's like a whole layer of things have realized are not here and
92. 00:07:17 And that's primarily like again if you glance at this picture and I'm sorry for those of you who are alive
93. 00:07:23 You can't see this but there's like a whole layer like when things come out of a task list
94. 00:07:27 I feel like it needs to go into like this is my work time
95. 00:07:32 So it needs to go into that work time because sometimes it goes back to a task list from that like it doesn't actually finish
96. 00:07:38 It's not a one-to-one. I don't start a task and then it's done
97. 00:07:42 So it can like create this loop within that but then that work time can also be eaten up by like all the meetings and phone calls and stuff
98. 00:07:50 That's on this as well
99. 00:07:51 So it's got like a time element that needs to be in this as well in order to really get a clean picture of it
100. 00:07:58 But that's a whole nother layer of complexity that's
101. 00:08:00 Going into this thus Joe's not done
102. 00:08:04 I guess and I didn't realize that until we were getting ready to record
103. 00:08:10 So yeah, this is more of a work in progress than I thought
104. 00:08:13 Yeah, you got a good start on it though
105. 00:08:15 And I love the fact that you have one of these from the task list to something being deleted and
106. 00:08:21 The definition is waiting too long. Yes
107. 00:08:25 The Napoleon approach
108. 00:08:28 Just ignore it for a while see if it goes away. Yes. Yep, and that's I
109. 00:08:33 Should maybe try to figure out if there's ways to I
110. 00:08:38 Wouldn't be able to do this but if there was ways to make the lines bigger based on how many things happen in
111. 00:08:43 Each of those that would be kind of cool
112. 00:08:45 But I don't think I have the information to make those accurate by any means
113. 00:08:49 But I would love to know how many things get deleted because I waited too long to work on them in some cases
114. 00:08:55 That's a good thing like I waited a
115. 00:08:57 Day instead of responding immediately and thus they fixed it themselves like to me. That's a success, but
116. 00:09:02 Yep, yes waiting too long can be good or bad just say it
117. 00:09:09 Right and for the folks who have downloaded this episode and did not
118. 00:09:14 Hear the pre-show banter you built this in obsidian, which is awesome. Yeah, I used the whole mermaid graphing thing
119. 00:09:22 that's now built into obsidian to make this and
120. 00:09:25 Then it's in a spot and I can reference that chart from other places within obsidian, which is kind of nice
121. 00:09:33 So yeah, which means it's forever a living thing very cool
122. 00:09:37 So this is a whole tangent that we're not going to get into today
123. 00:09:40 But I'm just going to throw this out there. I
124. 00:09:43 Have been rethinking everything in my task management workflow. I showed you a big stack of
125. 00:09:50 fountain pen friendly index cards that I'm playing with I'm still using the notebook and
126. 00:09:55 I am also playing around with all of the possible task management plugins inside of obsidian
127. 00:10:03 So we can come back to that at another point, but there's some really cool stuff you can do
128. 00:10:08 Yeah, I've got a lot of things that are task-based in
129. 00:10:13 Obsidian and have like queries that show up on my daily
130. 00:10:16 note, so
131. 00:10:18 Maybe you and I should get together at some point and just nerd out over this we should we should make it a
132. 00:10:24 Bookworm live stream that would be easy to do too
133. 00:10:31 Seed planted okay, I can see the gears turning and Joe's head. Let's move on now
134. 00:10:35 That was mean that was really mean sorry. What are we doing here today? Oh, yeah, we wrote a book
135. 00:10:42 Let's talk about that book
136. 00:10:44 Thanks. I have to I have to chime in on my action item
137. 00:10:48 which is a
138. 00:10:50 typical mic impossible to measure action item
139. 00:10:53 We never allow it anyone to be humiliated in my presence
140. 00:10:58 this was from the previous book that we covered going back to your
141. 00:11:03 Do better action item that we never really
142. 00:11:06 Explicitly defined in this episode we covered Atlas of the heart by Bernay Brown and it was all about
143. 00:11:12 naming emotions and one of them that stood out to me was humiliation and I
144. 00:11:17 Recall this action item was really just a perspective. I want to have as I go into
145. 00:11:24 different meetings and
146. 00:11:27 Encounters with other people is always allow the other person to save face basically and I did not have any
147. 00:11:34 chances to practice this
148. 00:11:37 Directly the last couple of weeks, but I will say I've been in meetings where things have started going in a specific direction
149. 00:11:46 And I have noticed that like my antenna go up because I kind of
150. 00:11:51 For see a situation where if this really goes completely off the rails how this person might feel
151. 00:11:58 cornered and
152. 00:12:00 That's kind of what I feel. That's what I mean by humiliated sure
153. 00:12:03 It's like they were trying to explain something and people kept pushing and they weren't ready to give a justification for it
154. 00:12:09 So they're just like grasping at words and then it's almost like you're trying to trap them
155. 00:12:13 You know that sort of thing and I could see stuff kind of heading that way and I
156. 00:12:16 Try to head it off at the past and it never got to the point where it was really
157. 00:12:20 Needed for me to jump in and do something to intervene
158. 00:12:24 But I will say that I'm more sensitive to this. I feel now. So I think that's already
159. 00:12:29 paying dividends from reading that book even if I didn't explicitly
160. 00:12:35 Meet the definition of done for this specific follow-up item. It's really hard to measure done on a change of mindset
161. 00:12:44 It is we should create a new format for these
162. 00:12:48 follow-up action items because I feel like those are the ones that provide me the most value from the books that
163. 00:12:55 We read from bookworm. Yeah, but they really don't fit the format at all
164. 00:12:58 What was it? So Benjamin Franklin did that was it Franklin who had the list of virtues that he was trying to?
165. 00:13:05 Track whether or not he was doing well with those. Yeah, it feels very much like that where this isn't a yes or no
166. 00:13:12 It's a scale. It's a spectrum if you will where you're kind of trying to keep an eye on how well are you doing with something?
167. 00:13:19 So you almost have to have a list of these and then just rate yourself on them on a regular basis
168. 00:13:24 I kind of do that with the daily questions. It's not explicitly
169. 00:13:29 Values or virtues like sure Benjamin Franklin, but it's the things that are important to me. So right it's that concept though, right?
170. 00:13:36 Yep, I don't know it sounds like we're gonna talk more about that in our next episode though
171. 00:13:42 So there's that perhaps teaser drops
172. 00:13:45 Okay, can we talk about today's book now? Let's do it because this one could get long
173. 00:13:51 so today's book is how to change by Katie milkman and
174. 00:13:54 Katie is a
175. 00:13:57 colleague of
176. 00:13:59 Angela Duckworth we read her book grit is duck worth wrote grit. Yes, and
177. 00:14:05 Katie is a
178. 00:14:08 researcher alongside her that works with a lot of the same type of behavioral science research and
179. 00:14:15 Katie has taken a lot of that research and
180. 00:14:19 picked apart a lot of the I would say like difficult I don't want to call him personality traits
181. 00:14:27 but habits
182. 00:14:28 I guess bad habits if you will that we all do in some form at different levels and then shown the science of how to overcome those and
183. 00:14:36 in some cases I
184. 00:14:38 Feel like she's speaking to my soul and the part of me that I don't want anybody to know about
185. 00:14:43 And the other part of it's like wait does that work? I think you're crazy
186. 00:14:47 I don't think that's actually a thing so there's there's a lot of this back and forth that I found myself
187. 00:14:51 Going through they're a handful of these that I feel like could
188. 00:14:56 Be described as the same thing and I'll I think I'll talk about those to some degree when we get to those
189. 00:15:03 But yeah, I think this is an interesting book to take the science and research side of how do you actually make?
190. 00:15:08 These changes and build habits and such
191. 00:15:11 That's probably a
192. 00:15:14 Stretch to call it a habit building book
193. 00:15:16 But anyway, you get my point. There's a lot of these things that we could work on being better
194. 00:15:20 Just how do you do that from a science stance? Yeah?
195. 00:15:23 I don't think it's a stretch to call it a habit book because
196. 00:15:28 it is
197. 00:15:31 Talking about behavioral change which is what the power of habit atomic habits and tiny habits all
198. 00:15:40 Referenced but it's not like those books. No, it's not. I don't know. I had trouble reconciling that
199. 00:15:48 Especially the way this one started
200. 00:15:51 Yeah, so this one she starts off with a chapter called getting started which the
201. 00:15:59 Introduction and stuff I think there's a forward written by Angela Duckworth - but there is a getting started chapter where
202. 00:16:06 She tells her story about going to the Google headquarters and then being asked a question that she had a hard time
203. 00:16:15 understanding and
204. 00:16:17 getting an answer to right away and
205. 00:16:19 basically what was going on is Google was offering a lot of
206. 00:16:24 Skill-building classes and free things like trainers and such and people were not taking advantage of these things even though they were free
207. 00:16:31 So it wasn't a financial thing
208. 00:16:33 But yet people still weren't taking advantage of these deals that would help them change for the better
209. 00:16:39 So then the question was well, why but this whole first chapter? I feel like is just a primer of saying like
210. 00:16:46 Here's how my research started and that was about it. That was all I got really out of this one
211. 00:16:52 There's some jumping off points that come from it like she talks about
212. 00:16:56 fresh starts like when you hit a
213. 00:16:59 Point in the road in your life where something is completely different
214. 00:17:03 You have a job change you have a baby you you know
215. 00:17:07 You have these points in time when big changes happen. It's the perfect time to introduce new
216. 00:17:13 Habits new changes get rid of bad things bad habits and such like that's a really good time to do that because you have the motivation
217. 00:17:20 And things are already changing at that time. She gets into a little bit more of that
218. 00:17:24 But anyway thoughts on this first one Mike. Well, the first chapter
219. 00:17:29 Kind of rubbed me the wrong way because
220. 00:17:32 She essentially is making the case for New Year's resolutions
221. 00:17:38 Yeah, I didn't want to bring that up. I figured you would but yes, she absolutely thinks that New Year's resolutions are potentially a very good thing
222. 00:17:47 potentially, I mean, we've all heard the statistic that 90% of them fail and she
223. 00:17:54 Embraces which I think is a clever argument. Well, that means that 10% of them are successful
224. 00:18:00 so even if you have just a 10% chance of changing your life isn't that worth it and
225. 00:18:07 Hard to argue with that logic, but I don't think it's very sound because the
226. 00:18:14 alternative that is being disregarded if you make that argument is could there possibly be a better way to affect
227. 00:18:22 behavioral change and I think
228. 00:18:25 100% there absolutely is
229. 00:18:27 So given the option of New Year's resolutions are nothing at all. Yes, choose New Year's resolutions
230. 00:18:33 But as soon as you
231. 00:18:35 Introduce an option see whatever it is is gonna be better
232. 00:18:41 So I understand her point and I think it's it's valid that you know
233. 00:18:45 The reason that people gravitate towards these New Year's resolutions is because of this fresh start effect that you had kind of talked about and
234. 00:18:52 The larger point and one of my action items already in this first chapter is to find more opportunities for those fresh starts
235. 00:19:00 There's nothing magical about
236. 00:19:02 January 1st other than it's convenient as people are flipping over their calendars and so
237. 00:19:07 It's easier for people to attach maybe to that specific point as a fresh start
238. 00:19:13 But there's no law that you have to do it then you can do it whenever so look for those opportunities where you have those
239. 00:19:20 moments that can trigger a fresh start whether it's a job change or having a kid or a
240. 00:19:28 Moving to a new city. I mean there's there's lots of things that can trigger those those fresh starts and I walked away from this first chapter
241. 00:19:37 Thinking you know these are probably all around me and I should just start looking for these more frequently even beginning a new week
242. 00:19:44 that's potentially a
243. 00:19:46 Fresh start it may it's maybe not as a substantial fresh start as a brand new year
244. 00:19:51 but
245. 00:19:53 Ultimately, that's just mindset stuff if you viewed it as this is a brand new beginning
246. 00:19:58 Then it is the same that there's nothing special about a specific date
247. 00:20:04 So figure out where those those points are in your own life and then leverage them to hopefully make some some better
248. 00:20:11 choices and some positive changes
249. 00:20:13 Yeah, that's I think that's a really good point like you can if you if you use
250. 00:20:17 Let's use Carol Dweck here
251. 00:20:20 growth mindset like if you use that mentality of
252. 00:20:23 Always trying to get better like you can hunt for these fresh starts and that could be like you're saying
253. 00:20:29 It could be at the beginning of the week could be the beginning of the month
254. 00:20:32 It could be the beginning of every day like that's something I know I've tried to do
255. 00:20:36 People talk about every day is a new start like well, you're right
256. 00:20:40 But it's tough to
257. 00:20:42 Actually think about it that way and it make changes as a result of that like it's not as simple as it's a fresh start
258. 00:20:47 Because it happens so often it doesn't feel like it sometimes
259. 00:20:51 So like I totally get that but one of the things I also wondered was like okay
260. 00:20:56 Every time we finish reading a book you and I sit down and talk about this like it's that moment
261. 00:21:02 In time where we kind of have another start point like you have another change point that happens there
262. 00:21:07 Because you've just finished debriefing a book you've got all the nuggets from it at this point or maybe we gave some to each other
263. 00:21:15 I'm not sure how I feel about this whole might giving me tasks on bookworm thing
264. 00:21:20 Becoming a habit and I'm not sure how I feel about it
265. 00:21:23 So like that is a thing that happens as well
266. 00:21:26 So like you get all the new information when you have that influx of information
267. 00:21:30 That can also be a new starting point like even if you did a bunch of research online and learned about I don't even know what
268. 00:21:37 Qualibears like there may be something about quality bears that strikes something in you and like that moment could be that starting point for you
269. 00:21:43 Yeah, they're literally all around us and I think using those as springboards is a very powerful mechanism for
270. 00:21:52 Positive change. I just don't like how it's wrapped up in
271. 00:21:56 News resolutions are actually a good thing. Yes. You lose a little bit of credibility in my mind when you make that argument
272. 00:22:02 Yep. Yeah, that was when she starts talking about how great news resolutions are
273. 00:22:08 Okay, this book is gonna go very
274. 00:22:10 Differently than I thought it was going to
275. 00:22:12 And it's interesting because prior to reading how to read a book by Mortimer Adler and the whole idea of
276. 00:22:20 topical reading had I not understood that I probably would have approached that argument a little bit differently
277. 00:22:28 I probably would have said well, let's just get to the end and see how this all ties together
278. 00:22:34 And then I'll decide for myself whether this book is
279. 00:22:38 For me, but as I go now
280. 00:22:42 recognizing that this is a
281. 00:22:45 discussion with the author and they're making their arguments and I'm
282. 00:22:49 Responding to them and also slotting it in with all of the other books that I have read
283. 00:22:55 I kind of do that in real time as I read these now. So as I get to that section
284. 00:23:00 I'm immediately thinking about the section that I read from atomic habits and
285. 00:23:05 Tiny habits and why that stuff won't work and I kind of know why it's not gonna work
286. 00:23:10 And so I dismissed that argument as invalid right at the beginning right the next level for me
287. 00:23:15 I guess is to not let that
288. 00:23:18 Influence my approach to everything else. She says after that point. I'm not very good at that yet
289. 00:23:24 Yeah, yeah, cuz it's it's colored at that point right or like if they're saying things that
290. 00:23:31 Goes along with what you already have you have confirmation bias and you tend to trust everything they say
291. 00:23:37 but if they say something at the very beginning that makes you kind of
292. 00:23:41 hesitant it can force you into skeptical mode for the rest of the book and
293. 00:23:48 You may or may not realize it's happening
294. 00:23:50 Exactly and once I recognize that that's happening. It's hard for me to
295. 00:23:55 Get out of that. I don't know if that's
296. 00:23:58 Seems like that has potential to be a negative thing overall, but it's just something I recognize in myself
297. 00:24:04 It's a bias that I have to fight against right so that's that's the very beginning of getting started
298. 00:24:10 That's where we she basically talks about how she got into her research and fresh starts and how those are good
299. 00:24:18 Breakout points. I just want to point out like if you remember this has been a number of episodes ago
300. 00:24:24 And we were talking a lot about like Joe's daily routine and I was talking about like here's me
301. 00:24:29 Setting all of this up, but it was because of me moving houses
302. 00:24:33 That's partly why
303. 00:24:35 Instinctively we know that whenever you have these big changes like that's a perfect time to introduce new habits and
304. 00:24:41 change the way you're doing things because you're already in the middle of one big change and then doing something else is
305. 00:24:47 Actually fairly minor
306. 00:24:49 To add to the bigger mix. So that's partly why why I was doing that anyway. There's that piece chapter two is
307. 00:24:57 called impulsivity and
308. 00:24:59 It's exactly what it sounds like it looks like okay. Here's here's where she starts to set up the format for the next six chapters
309. 00:25:06 She's got six points that we're gonna talk about and she tells a story
310. 00:25:10 about
311. 00:25:12 The topic in this case impulsivity and then starts giving you a lot of the research and the findings around it and what to do about it
312. 00:25:19 And she doesn't always give you exact
313. 00:25:21 Tactical of like do this every single time you have this and it'll make it all go away like no
314. 00:25:27 That's not it at all, but she'll give you the broad ideas, but impulsivity basically
315. 00:25:32 It's what she calls the present bias, which is your you're more prone to
316. 00:25:38 dive into things that you can see and have the instant gratification from right now as
317. 00:25:43 opposed to working towards longer term goals and
318. 00:25:47 I'll talk a little bit about some of the overlap on the next one
319. 00:25:50 But this one I feel like I I tend to do and call it something else
320. 00:25:56 But I also I'm not real sure what to do about it sometimes
321. 00:25:59 so
322. 00:26:01 There's that this is one of those really you had to go there. You had to start with this one
323. 00:26:05 Why are you striking my soul don't do that?
324. 00:26:07 So
325. 00:26:09 the big thing I like from this
326. 00:26:12 section is
327. 00:26:14 temptation bundling and again we know about this from atomic habits and
328. 00:26:20 Echo brings up a good point
329. 00:26:23 I want to address in the chat here
330. 00:26:24 It says with my philosophy of listening to opposing ideas looks like that would fit here and I'm
331. 00:26:29 struggling to reconcile the
332. 00:26:32 like philosophy differences versus
333. 00:26:36 Research based because that's kind of how this book is framed differences. I guess in my own
334. 00:26:42 Brain I've kind of closed the book on
335. 00:26:44 New Year's resolutions and like there isn't room for a science-based argument that these are actually good for you
336. 00:26:53 but then that's the
337. 00:26:56 the foundation now that the shaky foundation in my
338. 00:27:00 My opinion that she's like chosen to build her arguments on in the first chapter
339. 00:27:05 And then she gets into this temptation bundling and it's kind of a cursory glance
340. 00:27:10 Into the the topic and again how to read a book
341. 00:27:15 There's a whole bunch more that could be gone into with this that she doesn't really get to and
342. 00:27:23 Comparing it so closely to atomic habits is probably
343. 00:27:29 unfair, but I I have trouble with this
344. 00:27:34 approach like the science-based
345. 00:27:38 application of behavioral change because in the subtitle the science of getting from where you are to where you want to be and
346. 00:27:44 not going deep into these things is
347. 00:27:49 Causing me a lot of friction already at the beginning of this book sure. Yeah, I could see that
348. 00:27:56 I know that like in this particular section she's talking about temptation bundling
349. 00:28:01 But she also talks a lot about gamification which mmm-hmm. We read a whole book on that and
350. 00:28:05 super better if you remember that one so gamification like I know there's a lot you could cover here and
351. 00:28:12 We of course read a book about how to do that well
352. 00:28:15 Which was not not anywhere near like she doesn't talk about that anywhere near to the level of detail that we had in super better
353. 00:28:24 But I don't know that that's necessary in this particular case
354. 00:28:27 But I think I get your point too because like she does talk about like here's the problem and then here are some like
355. 00:28:35 Research and stories about that particular problem and how people solved it
356. 00:28:40 But she doesn't ever actually summarize that into something cohesive that you can run away with or take away from this
357. 00:28:47 Yeah, it gets kind of hard to translate it. I find so again. There's good stuff here
358. 00:28:53 It's just hard to translate it out of it. It is now the research
359. 00:28:56 I want to ask you how did you did you think that the stories that she shared from her own personal research that they were effective in
360. 00:29:04 Supporting her points not always I would say it's about half and half
361. 00:29:08 Yeah, a lot of times it felt like a theory that was tested
362. 00:29:14 with a single study and the results were not like off the charts inconclusive
363. 00:29:21 Just a little bit in that direction to support the argument
364. 00:29:25 So it was used as the basis for the argument and I feel like that wasn't super effective
365. 00:29:32 and
366. 00:29:33 I'm not in a position to do any sort of research like she was able to do so
367. 00:29:38 Take that with a grain of salt in the back of my mind. I have another book on my shelf
368. 00:29:43 Which I need to dig into though. I've been thinking about this book science fictions
369. 00:29:50 Ever since I heard a cortex episode
370. 00:29:53 where
371. 00:29:55 Gray and Mike were talking about what they did not like
372. 00:29:59 regarding
373. 00:30:01 the Daniel Kahneman book thinking fast and slow because I
374. 00:30:06 Guess there is a whole big
375. 00:30:08 Movement now which kind of discredits a lot of that type of research that was done
376. 00:30:16 because it's almost impossible to reproduce and
377. 00:30:20 I'm not sure I would have had that in the back of my mind prior to
378. 00:30:26 Digging into that that topic a little bit and I still need to read that that book at some point to really understand
379. 00:30:34 the full argument there but in the back of my mind now, I guess I'm kind of a little bit skeptical of any
380. 00:30:40 single study that gets cited
381. 00:30:44 Because I understand the formula for a lot of these authors who are trying to sell books is it's like I got a check a
382. 00:30:51 Box to show that there was research done and I want to make compelling arguments
383. 00:30:56 But I think getting those two to actually be in alignment is harder to do
384. 00:31:03 Then it it seems and I guess just at the point now where I can not necessarily
385. 00:31:10 Point out what is wrong but can kind of pass the sniff test of something is is off here. I
386. 00:31:17 Think there's there's a lot going on on what you just said because I don't think you can ignore our
387. 00:31:24 Current like cultural state either with that one because we have so many
388. 00:31:29 quote-unquote science
389. 00:31:32 articles and reviews and stuff thrown at us that at least maybe this is just me it just seems like there's
390. 00:31:40 So much of that that happens that you kind of have to be skeptical about it because there's so many of them that compete with each other
391. 00:31:46 And it's really hard to trust quote-unquote science as a blanket statement because there's
392. 00:31:53 folks on all sides of it and they oftentimes want to take an
393. 00:31:57 article and the
394. 00:31:59 Results of the article and then interpret what you should do with it instead of just presenting here's what we found and
395. 00:32:05 That's where I tend to struggle with it quite a bit. Maybe that's just my personal issue
396. 00:32:09 but a lot of the science that she shares here borders on that territory of
397. 00:32:15 Here's what we found and here's what we think you should do because of it and
398. 00:32:20 I don't really appreciate that much at all
399. 00:32:24 so it's tough to I
400. 00:32:26 Think you're absolutely spot on it's really hard to take the findings that you have from research and
401. 00:32:32 Then not go into the next step of here's what you should do about it and let people make that decision
402. 00:32:38 Because we we don't want to trust that people will interpret it the same way that we did but that's what you have to do
403. 00:32:45 You don't have to do it and maybe this is my opinion
404. 00:32:49 I don't know but it does in this particular if I if I'm pinpointing what Katie milkman has done here I
405. 00:32:56 Think it's very difficult to trust a lot of the science that she shares here because it feels like she's trying to force
406. 00:33:05 Some of them and again not all of them, but because it happens enough it makes you question the rest of them
407. 00:33:12 You're right. It does it does feel forced. That's a good way to describe it and there is I mean it doesn't have to be that way
408. 00:33:19 I'm thinking back to another book that we had
409. 00:33:24 Covered which I would argue is very
410. 00:33:27 Research-heavy and that is the extended mind
411. 00:33:31 by Dr. Annie Paul that one
412. 00:33:35 seemed to have a very natural
413. 00:33:37 progression between the research and the
414. 00:33:41 conclusions I guess this one just feels I don't know I guess my
415. 00:33:49 Take away from some of these research studies
416. 00:33:53 Was I had this theory and I tested it once and I found
417. 00:33:58 10% 20% you know a result and
418. 00:34:02 There aren't other studies mentioned which backed that up like the way the the chapters are constructed
419. 00:34:10 It's like a story which led to an
420. 00:34:13 Experiment and it's a small sample size and this is what we found and then it's quickly moving on to another very
421. 00:34:21 complicated topic
422. 00:34:23 Without any sort of resolution in my mind
423. 00:34:27 Yep, and this this chapter I think is kind of where I felt like well
424. 00:34:33 We're we're jumping too quick here between like the temptation bundling
425. 00:34:37 She also talks about you know
426. 00:34:39 We think future me is gonna be able to make good on choices that present me can't so like future discounting that's a really
427. 00:34:44 Big topic and then there's the gamification and why that doesn't work
428. 00:34:49 I mean these these should all be separate chapters
429. 00:34:54 And they're lumped together under impulsivity very loosely
430. 00:34:58 Connected and the resolution at the end of the chapters really just
431. 00:35:03 It does not work for me and at this point. This is where I start to realize that
432. 00:35:07 Well, let's go to the next one because it gets worse my opinion the the clarity side of it and the next one is procrastination and
433. 00:35:16 as soon as I got to that section which I had read the table of contents at the beginning and
434. 00:35:23 impulsivity great and then she starts riling off some of these things that they do to help with you know fighting impulses or
435. 00:35:31 Present bias as she calls it and we get into procrastination and she tells the story of like people putting things off or not doing them and
436. 00:35:39 Then talks mostly about what people will do
437. 00:35:45 to help with procrastination and
438. 00:35:48 There's things like creating locked bank accounts where you can put money in but you're not able to get things out
439. 00:35:54 So then you're not allowed to you know put think put off your long-term goals
440. 00:35:58 Commitment devices of some sort some of those are cash commitment devices
441. 00:36:02 Like you're gonna commit to doing this thing and if you don't we're gonna donate money to the organization that you are actively fighting against
442. 00:36:09 You know like it's that sort of thing
443. 00:36:11 she talks about sophisticated sin naivets like
444. 00:36:14 so many different ways that you could take this but
445. 00:36:18 My point is like I really struggled with this because how is that different than impulsivity in my mind because
446. 00:36:25 Yes, I'm putting something off that I want to work towards long-term
447. 00:36:29 but
448. 00:36:30 That is essentially me acting on an impulse right now instead of doing something for later
449. 00:36:36 So in my head impulsivity and procrastination are like
450. 00:36:40 Two edges of the same sword. It's the same thing
451. 00:36:44 But we're talking about it in two different ways using the exact same
452. 00:36:47 Like terminology in some cases. So anyway, I felt like it was basically the same title and
453. 00:36:54 So many of the things should have been broken apart and yet they could have been put together so weird
454. 00:36:58 I don't know I struggled with it
455. 00:37:00 Maybe that's my issue with the book to be honest is the way that the chapters are
456. 00:37:05 Differentiated because looking at the other chapters here
457. 00:37:08 Chapter four is forgetfulness this fits in with procrastination as well
458. 00:37:13 And then you've got chapter five which is laziness that fits into procrastination as well and chapter six is confidence
459. 00:37:19 That fits into procrastination as well
460. 00:37:21 So yeah, I don't know maybe the better
461. 00:37:26 Choice of a chapter title. I don't know it's kind of hard to piece this stuff together
462. 00:37:31 But if I had to pick one maybe cognitive dissonance
463. 00:37:33 Because she talks about the reason why you need these commitment devices and cognitive dissonance she defines as being at odds with yourself and
464. 00:37:42 I feel that's a very effective definition
465. 00:37:45 but the rest of it with the story about the
466. 00:37:49 Banks forcing people to save and stuff like that. I feel like the formula for these chapters is
467. 00:37:56 Trying to be kind of like extreme ownership. It's a story a principle and then kind of the resolution of the story some type stuff at the end
468. 00:38:07 But it doesn't have a solid
469. 00:38:10 foundational topic maybe I
470. 00:38:12 Don't know I'm thinking out loud at at this point, but yeah procrastination covers literally everything in this entire book
471. 00:38:20 So why are we gonna try to speak to it directly in a single chapter and again?
472. 00:38:25 the
473. 00:38:26 commitment devices based on the cash commitment devices specifically
474. 00:38:30 I feel like we spent way too much time talking about those things and they still a whole bunch of questions by the time you get to the end
475. 00:38:38 Yeah, and there's a fundamental flaw with it too because she never talks about
476. 00:38:43 The fact that some people are not motivated by money at all
477. 00:38:48 She makes the assumption that everyone is motivated by having to pay a fee for something when I know that myself and
478. 00:38:56 People that I know first hand if there's a fee to pay if I don't go to the gym
479. 00:39:04 More often than not I'm fine with just paying the fee. It's okay
480. 00:39:09 It's not a motivator for me. I know that it is for a lot of people
481. 00:39:13 I'm just not one of them and that's tough for some folks to get their head around I get that
482. 00:39:19 But it just isn't a motivator and yet that was a big part of this section was a cash incentive in some form
483. 00:39:28 I feel you know, I think you're right with like some of the lay out of the book and maybe I'm jumping ahead here with like the whole style
484. 00:39:34 Thing but this is a case where I feel like this should have been a three-part book
485. 00:39:37 I actually wrote this down beforehand because I felt like it was for me format at all wrong
486. 00:39:42 I I think it should have been a three-part book. She should have explained the problems to change
487. 00:39:48 Which are this list that we've got here impulsive the procrastination forgetfulness laziness confidence and conformity
488. 00:39:55 Explain those problems and then give me a bank of the tactics that you're talking about to help solve that
489. 00:40:02 So some of that is like the game if you want to use what she's got here the gamification piece the temptation bundling
490. 00:40:08 You know all the you know
491. 00:40:10 We'll talk about some of like the reminders and setting defaults and stuff all of those things could be a bank of all the tactics at the end
492. 00:40:17 Or in the middle and then at the end
493. 00:40:19 Talk to me about how to make that stick long-term sure that to me is your three-part layout
494. 00:40:25 But I also know that if you put these titles in a table of contents
495. 00:40:31 It's one of the first things people look at when they're glancing over a book and
496. 00:40:34 If you see a book called how to change and you see this list of things
497. 00:40:39 This is partly how I picked it. I saw that list like oh, yes that I want that
498. 00:40:45 Yeah, and then when you get into it, then it starts to click a little bit
499. 00:40:49 So anyway, it helps sell a book
500. 00:40:50 I know that so I feel a little bit taken once I connected all those dots
501. 00:40:54 But I'm also aware that the vast majority people are not going to critique a book the way that you and I are
502. 00:41:00 So I'm aware of that too. I also think maybe it's
503. 00:41:04 Personality driven like I'm trying to picture a scenario where
504. 00:41:09 Someone who is not me and who is not you?
505. 00:41:13 Picks up this book reads the table of contents and then reads the whole thing and is like yes
506. 00:41:20 This is exactly what I needed
507. 00:41:22 I'm trying to have an open mind enough to think that that is at least a
508. 00:41:28 Ability and I know we've got our own bias on like the books that we've read and our ideal approach to this
509. 00:41:35 Topic at at this point, but do you think that's possible?
510. 00:41:39 That what maybe I didn't understand that that someone who is in a has a different
511. 00:41:46 Personality
512. 00:41:48 Then you or I do approaches this as their first introduction to the topic of behavioral change and says yes
513. 00:41:56 This book is great. Yeah, I think that's very possible and you know
514. 00:42:00 This is why like if you look at so I the outline I put together that connects like all these different chapters
515. 00:42:06 And I put like the subheadings underneath of it, which is probably similar to what some of your mind knows stuff is
516. 00:42:11 It has a lot of like the tactics for that thing and how to work towards that
517. 00:42:17 I think if you're
518. 00:42:19 If you don't have the background that we do or this growth mindset piece like we do
519. 00:42:25 I could see where this is maybe the right way to do this
520. 00:42:28 So I I want to temper some of my thoughts with that because I know that like this could be
521. 00:42:33 The right format for people because if you look at it like okay impulsivity, what are some things to help you with?
522. 00:42:39 preventing instant gratification desires
523. 00:42:42 And if that's what you're working towards then
524. 00:42:45 Yeah, that's it
525. 00:42:48 Technically, I think you and I would both say that those fall under the procrastination world, but I think she's trying to
526. 00:42:55 differentiate that because of the different types of
527. 00:42:58 Tactics that she's using to fight against different forms of procrastination maybe and different sure underlying
528. 00:43:05 Drivers for it like if you went on to the next one forgetfulness
529. 00:43:09 She talks about using time-based reminders
530. 00:43:12 You want to be reminded as close to the thing that you need to do as you can because you'll forget
531. 00:43:17 You need to use Q based planning
532. 00:43:20 Having something in place that will help you plan for the future and it's a cue to do that a memory palace
533. 00:43:26 She talks about we talked about that before using checklists like these are helping you to remember to do things at the right time
534. 00:43:31 Which again is a piece of procrastination as well, but it's a different form
535. 00:43:36 So maybe that's what she's driving towards. I don't know. There's there's a lot of different ways you could interpret this
536. 00:43:42 I think talking about chapter four
537. 00:43:44 She mentions that the average adult forgets three things each day and then she gets into some of the stuff that you were talking about
538. 00:43:52 Yeah, this ties back to procrastination my dominant thought as I was reading this section though
539. 00:43:59 Was that all of these?
540. 00:44:01 Tactics are dealing with the symptom not the disease
541. 00:44:06 So I couldn't help my mind
542. 00:44:09 Wandering into well the fact that we are so forgetful
543. 00:44:14 and we're forgetting all these things is really a product of our chaotic environment and
544. 00:44:20 again
545. 00:44:22 hard to separate at this point from the other books that we've read on whatever topics
546. 00:44:28 but the one that immediately came to mind was margin and I
547. 00:44:35 feel like if you
548. 00:44:37 were to embrace a life of margin and you were to disconnect from
549. 00:44:43 a lot of the digital stressors that are in our culture whether they be social media news
550. 00:44:50 Email whatever things that we just by default assume we need to have these things in our life
551. 00:44:58 But if you really recognized that these things aren't essential and you simply eliminated a lot of those things
552. 00:45:05 then maybe a lot of this forgetfulness stuff takes care of itself regardless of the
553. 00:45:11 The tactics that you try to implement from this specific chapter
554. 00:45:14 Yeah, it could be yeah, I think if you start putting a lot of the puzzle pieces together
555. 00:45:18 There's there's a lot that you could yeah, so many thoughts might so many thoughts
556. 00:45:24 And that is not to say that there's not good stuff in here like no she talks about
557. 00:45:29 Cues at this point so again, we can't get away from habits, but it's right a habits book, right?
558. 00:45:37 So she talks about the more distinctive the cue the more effective the recall
559. 00:45:40 That's kind of directly from tiny habits by BJ Fogg
560. 00:45:45 She talks about implementation intentions like linking your desired activities to a specific cue
561. 00:45:51 This is all great stuff, but it feels like it's packaged to
562. 00:45:55 solve a problem that is
563. 00:45:58 Not as clearly defined as the other habits books that we have written
564. 00:46:04 I mean at this point I'm talking about okay, so I've got fresh starts from chapter one
565. 00:46:09 I want to start leveraging those and then impulsivity in
566. 00:46:13 chapter two where
567. 00:46:16 Future me is present me is a jerk to future me so temper that okay now chapter three procrastination
568. 00:46:23 There's cognitive dissonance here. How do I resolve that number four forgetfulness implementation intentions?
569. 00:46:28 You can kind of see like there's no clear connection
570. 00:46:32 For these different dots at least in an effective way that's gonna make it stick for me
571. 00:46:38 And that's why I asked a question in the previous chapter
572. 00:46:40 Like do you think there's a personality type where this stuff does connect for because I have trouble aligning?
573. 00:46:45 these dots for myself
574. 00:46:48 Yeah, and there's there's a lot of so I think you're spot on with the personality thing and I think maybe that is part of this and
575. 00:46:55 It's partially because
576. 00:46:58 You know a lot of these things could be super helpful for people
577. 00:47:02 I think there are definitely people that this entire list of tactics to help fight these things is like spot on and exactly what they need
578. 00:47:09 Knowing an ADHD brain. There's a lot of stuff here that like yeah, that's laughable like there's no way
579. 00:47:16 That's not gonna help
580. 00:47:19 One iota like I know that and it's not something that I can just use a fun little have a cue card on my computer
581. 00:47:27 When I get there at work to remember what to do that first thing like that's not gonna work because
582. 00:47:32 I'm gonna sit down like that's in the way I need to get onto my keyboard and I'm gonna set it down and then in
583. 00:47:37 That two and a half seconds that thing is gone and it doesn't do me any good whatsoever
584. 00:47:42 I'm sorry Sean Blanc
585. 00:47:44 I know you use the no-card thing, but it's not something that will work for me because I just move it and by the time
586. 00:47:50 I get to the actual thing it's gone
587. 00:47:52 So it doesn't work that way and there's a lot of that type of tricks here that she talks about and I know they don't work
588. 00:47:59 Because I've tried them so
589. 00:48:01 That adds to the skepticism on my part now that said I'm very aware that
590. 00:48:06 A lot of these things I know work really well for my wife and she uses some of these things actively whether she realizes
591. 00:48:15 She does it or not and if she were to read this, I'm sure there's a lot of this
592. 00:48:19 Well, yeah, of course. How would you get anything done otherwise?
593. 00:48:22 Like that's probably her perspective on some of this, but I'm digressing here
594. 00:48:28 But I think you're right. There's probably a little bit of a you know, what is your tendency?
595. 00:48:33 towards different types of prompts and are you skeptical about following through on them?
596. 00:48:40 I think there's a lot to that. Yeah, and I know there's gonna be different strokes for different folks
597. 00:48:46 One book that is currently being written that I am fascinated to get your opinion on is
598. 00:48:51 I think it's called refocus and it's by Jesse Anderson and he's still working on it
599. 00:48:58 But it's basically an ADHD approach to
600. 00:49:02 the productivity and that was kind of the one of the light bulb moments
601. 00:49:07 I had was his atomic essay about eat the ice cream not the frog
602. 00:49:11 Yeah, and recognizing that there's gonna be different things that work here for different people
603. 00:49:17 I'd so I guess yeah, you're right. We're we have to just keep iterating that this is our personal opinion
604. 00:49:24 And it's quite possible that this works for other people but that being said yeah, it's not working for me at at this point
605. 00:49:30 Yeah, so I guess to get back to the book here like we're on forgetfulness and
606. 00:49:36 Some of the things she talks about that do work for people is setting time-based reminders
607. 00:49:40 This is one that I wrote down that I'm gonna try to be better at especially using like the do app where you can get the nagging reminders
608. 00:49:47 Setting that to go off at the time at which you are planning to do that thing
609. 00:49:52 Could make a big big difference that's similar to like the cue-based planning because she tells stories of like they remind people to do things at the moment
610. 00:50:01 That they're getting into the car or you're like you want to learn to like floss your teeth and not forget to do that
611. 00:50:06 well having the cue of doing that while you are
612. 00:50:10 Brushing your teeth can help with that. So it's that type of thing where you're trying to set up those cues and such
613. 00:50:16 Obviously the one in this list that I thought was spot on was the checklist piece like oh, yeah
614. 00:50:22 If you have all big bank of things, it's really hard to remember how to do guess what helps checklist. Yep
615. 00:50:27 There you go. I'm totally on board with you on that one Katie on the topic of the cues
616. 00:50:32 I wonder if there's a point of diminishing returns with this because you mentioned specifically a cue with the do app
617. 00:50:39 Where it's a nagging reminder that sounds to me
618. 00:50:44 like a plan and having too many plans she points out can be overwhelming
619. 00:50:49 so I wonder if it would be more effective to
620. 00:50:54 Just think about how you can make modifications to your environment so that it automatically happens that you
621. 00:51:01 Do these little things like flossing your teeth or whatever which again?
622. 00:51:05 I feel like there are other books that speak to that better
623. 00:51:09 Yes, but this is one book and not a bank of books if it was intended to be a bank of books
624. 00:51:16 You wouldn't have this one. That's true. That's true. So there's that which if we keep moving here
625. 00:51:22 We've got laziness, which is the next one different form of procrastination
626. 00:51:25 And she has a few different ways that you can combat that one
627. 00:51:30 Setting defaults was the first one she talked about in in this chapter which you and I've talked about before
628. 00:51:36 This is a big deal like if you change the defaults for how something or when something is gonna happen
629. 00:51:43 it happens way more frequently and
630. 00:51:46 Makes things a lot easier like if you have
631. 00:51:49 You know different apps that will automatically open to your task list whenever you open your computer to begin with
632. 00:51:56 Like that sort of thing makes it way easier to avoid distractions and such
633. 00:52:00 So like that sort of thing setting those defaults is a big deal
634. 00:52:04 I don't know anything you want to say on them like I've got a few others here
635. 00:52:06 I can talk about the one thing that stood out to me from this chapter was the emphasis on the flexibility
636. 00:52:14 So that in certain scenarios can be more important
637. 00:52:18 Than a routine in terms of getting a habit to stick and I feel like I've embraced this with my running habit
638. 00:52:25 Because there's not a specific time that I go for a run a couple times a week
639. 00:52:31 I just know basically the day and then the day of I'll
640. 00:52:35 Slotted on my time block plan, but I recognize that as I'm working on things
641. 00:52:40 I'll hit a point where there's diminishing returns and in terms of my ability to create or think about something and then
642. 00:52:47 I just kind of automatically and like okay, that's the time I'm gonna go for a run
643. 00:52:51 Yeah, whether that's earlier later because sometimes I'm in the zone and just
644. 00:52:56 Things are flowing and at that point
645. 00:52:58 I'm not stopping to go for my scheduled run unless you know, I know that that's my last window for the day
646. 00:53:05 But I feel like I would not have a consistent running habit if I had tried to be rigid with it
647. 00:53:13 I feel like you know
648. 00:53:14 She she does talk about habits and then talks about flexible habits like you're saying and
649. 00:53:18 Maybe this is just me. Maybe this is my brain
650. 00:53:22 But the concept of having a habit that I do every single day that doesn't have a set like routine
651. 00:53:28 To it and it's just something I make sure I do every day
652. 00:53:31 Guess what those never happen never never never never like if you told me that I wanted to make sure that I was reading a book
653. 00:53:38 Every day, but I don't have a set time that I'm gonna do that
654. 00:53:42 I just want to make sure it gets in that day
655. 00:53:44 It won't happen at all. I will always
656. 00:53:48 Move on to something else and it just does not doesn't click ever and I don't know
657. 00:53:53 Specifically why that is maybe that comes back to the impulsivity and procrastination piece
658. 00:53:58 I don't know some of us forgetfulness like it ties into some of those
659. 00:54:01 It's not like I'm trying to put it off intentionally. It just I find other things that fill that time very quickly and
660. 00:54:08 Having the set times for those pieces is what makes sure that they happen like I know first thing I'm gonna do
661. 00:54:16 After I've cleaned myself up in the morning and gone to the restroom like I'm grabbing a book
662. 00:54:21 And I'm gonna go sit down and make a cup of tea like that's what I do. So every single morning
663. 00:54:26 That's when that happens otherwise
664. 00:54:27 I'm not gonna take the time to sit down and read throughout the rest of the day because it gets too hectic and too crazy
665. 00:54:33 And it's just not gonna happen
666. 00:54:34 I can see that and and I think there are examples from my own life too where there are other habits that like you just described
667. 00:54:41 I need to schedule them or they are not going to happen and I don't know how to tell
668. 00:54:47 Which ones I need to be flexible with and which ones I need to be rigid with there are probably
669. 00:54:52 characteristics of
670. 00:54:54 Those that I could identify if I knew where to look but haven't figured it out yet
671. 00:55:00 couple of the other things she talks about here is like nudging
672. 00:55:03 Where you can like make it easier to do the thing that you want to do
673. 00:55:07 she told the story about getting a hospital to I guess that was on setting defaults, but getting a hospital to
674. 00:55:14 prescribe more generics instead of name brand
675. 00:55:17 medications and how they actually fix that because the tech guy decided to push an update to how those prescriptions were
676. 00:55:24 sent off and had it the generic tick box that was
677. 00:55:28 Or had the name brand box that you had to check to get the name brand prescription and it was off by default
678. 00:55:35 So then you had to turn it on in order to get the name brand and it dropped their name brand prescriptions
679. 00:55:40 I don't even remember how much it was almost non-existent for name brand afterwards
680. 00:55:45 Yeah, see this is this is the example of the type of research that kind of irks me with this because the way she tells the story
681. 00:55:52 It's like it was way over here and at the end after they made the change it was way over there
682. 00:55:58 Yep, and on a scale of zero to a hundred we went from zero to a hundred
683. 00:56:04 Yep, and you framed it just like she did
684. 00:56:07 Afterwards almost everybody did it
685. 00:56:11 98% but I believe the percentage at the beginning of it was 75%
686. 00:56:17 Sure, it's like a 20% change not a 90% change. Yep, which
687. 00:56:23 again
688. 00:56:24 Like that's a movement in the right direction and I'm sure it saved them a ton of money
689. 00:56:30 But maybe there's a more powerful example to be had there
690. 00:56:34 Seems like there would be I feel like this is the kind of thing that a tool go on
691. 00:56:40 They would talk about in like the checklist manifesto and maybe I'm misremembering that book
692. 00:56:45 Maybe that was similar results between this is where we were before checklist is where we were after checklist
693. 00:56:51 But I remember walking away from that book feeling like checklist make a huge difference
694. 00:56:57 And this is like well, yeah, we made a change that we actually went around the rules in order to do and it moved the needle a
695. 00:57:03 moderate amount
696. 00:57:05 Yeah, yeah, those are the ones that it's a 95% change
697. 00:57:09 which means that like what they're actually talking about was it moved from 10% to like
698. 00:57:15 19% is the way that they're framing that and
699. 00:57:19 Yes, that could be qualified as a big deal
700. 00:57:22 But depending on what the thing is you're talking about and it's actually fairly minor
701. 00:57:27 Could be and that's that's a lot of what I think you're getting at like you have to be careful and
702. 00:57:31 Maybe this is the skepticism we're talking about like when people are throwing science at me quote unquote science again
703. 00:57:37 the whole
704. 00:57:39 You know what the numbers are maybe this is the data and now analyst in me like I
705. 00:57:44 Always assume those numbers are inflated or tweaked until proven otherwise
706. 00:57:50 Because I know they're playing games with how they're talking about them
707. 00:57:55 almost all the time in order to make the point they want to make and
708. 00:57:59 I'm not saying that that's what Katie's doing intentionally here. I just think that's the norm and
709. 00:58:05 If you fall well even in her book. She's got this piece conformity like if everybody around you is doing it that way
710. 00:58:12 That's what they're gonna teach you to do and that's what you're going to be led to do
711. 00:58:16 And I want to say right here that I think part of the thing that attributes to that effect is
712. 00:58:24 actually a positive trait where it seems like
713. 00:58:27 she is
714. 00:58:29 Trying to trying very hard to establish
715. 00:58:33 credibility but also express humility. I mean she's talking about I
716. 00:58:39 Got the chance to go talk to Google
717. 00:58:42 Name-dropping like these big companies, but that doesn't really rub me the wrong way the way that she she did it because she's trying to establish
718. 00:58:51 credibility and if I were her I would probably do the same thing, but then she also balances it with like I
719. 00:58:56 Did this with?
720. 00:58:57 Angela Duckworth and I did this with these other people and
721. 00:59:01 it always feels like trying to
722. 00:59:05 qualify
723. 00:59:07 some of the
724. 00:59:08 This the statements and I know there are books that we read and they are probably typically male authors
725. 00:59:16 who just assumed this authoritative tone and like this is the story and this is the big conclusion and
726. 00:59:24 They might have taken a very different approach to some of these same studies
727. 00:59:28 and they would have made these grandiose claims and they would have just told the same research but told the story differently and
728. 00:59:35 would be very
729. 00:59:38 Different in terms of how it comes off to the reader and I'm more sensitive to that stuff too
730. 00:59:44 the people that kind of fit into that category for me which I recognize now having read a bunch of books
731. 00:59:50 They do kind of rub me the wrong way are the people like the Grant Cardones and
732. 00:59:56 The Tim Ferrisses and the Gary Vayner Chucks. Yeah, exactly Blake
733. 01:00:03 Absolutely there it definitely exists in the productivity self-help genre and so I want to
734. 01:00:14 clarify that but also I feel like maybe Katie needs the same advice somebody gave me one time
735. 01:00:21 It's like you don't have to attribute all this stuff to other people like you have the ability to own your own thoughts about things
736. 01:00:28 right, so I
737. 01:00:31 Don't know this is a difficult concept
738. 01:00:33 But I guess what I'm saying is even though the net effect of the research in these stories leaves me with more questions than answers
739. 01:00:41 I also feel like it's coming from an attempt to be authentic and not present yourself as
740. 01:00:48 The expert who knows all and that I definitely appreciate
741. 01:00:52 Yeah, it's it's a fine line to walk the way that she's
742. 01:00:57 presenting this because it it I think her very first story at the very beginning getting started where she's talking about I
743. 01:01:04 Was new I went to Google I got asked this question and I didn't know what to do with it. I think that is
744. 01:01:10 Really good the way that she presented that when it gets repeated and it comes up over and over and over again
745. 01:01:15 And she talks about yeah
746. 01:01:17 We went to this company we went to that company and we got called into this and this is a high-up person
747. 01:01:21 And like that happens a lot and it's not that she's trying to be like this is me
748. 01:01:27 It feels like it's a bit of bragging at least that was my take on it
749. 01:01:31 And I get what you're saying like there's some sense of like using that to build credibility
750. 01:01:36 But her very first story she did a good job of like I didn't feel like I should have been there
751. 01:01:40 She made that comment on that one
752. 01:01:43 That was the only one she made that comment on and I know that because it tripped me on the very first
753. 01:01:49 And like she did that well like I remember that the very beginning
754. 01:01:51 She made that comment and then she never did it again the whole book so well
755. 01:01:55 I'm gonna mend a fender a little bit here because put yourself in her shoes and
756. 01:01:59 You are writing a self-help book yep in
757. 01:02:05 This environment, you know, you have to correct have to approach it that way, right? Yeah
758. 01:02:10 Because it's tough. Yeah. Yeah, so I'm willing to give her a pass for that
759. 01:02:15 I agree that it's it feels a little bit weird
760. 01:02:18 But also it feels like something that she just has to do correct. I think what I'm trying to say is because
761. 01:02:24 Yes, you were correct and I
762. 01:02:27 Want to give her that pass? I think what I'm getting at is like I don't think it was written the way she intends it correct
763. 01:02:34 Yeah, I don't think it came across the way she's intending it to come across and
764. 01:02:37 That could be a factor of like our background or maybe it's I'll use me like I don't know about you
765. 01:02:45 But my background and what I've interpreted from how other authors do this
766. 01:02:50 Like that's the way I took it because I don't feel like she articulated her intentions very well on that one
767. 01:02:57 No, I agree with that. I think this is the first book where I don't really enjoy the book
768. 01:03:04 But I feel like I would really enjoy getting to know the person right right absolutely
769. 01:03:09 Because I'm with you a hundred percent. There's so much of this is like I really want to go hang out with Katie
770. 01:03:13 I guess where does that is to say like yes, we're giving her time to grief here, but I
771. 01:03:18 Really want to hang out with her like let's let's go talk about this because I feel like I have lots of questions
772. 01:03:23 And I feel like we could have a really fun conversation
773. 01:03:25 We could learn a lot because I just think that what she knows and what she's been able to articulate here
774. 01:03:31 are kind of two different categories
775. 01:03:33 I feel like what she's learned from her research and how she's been able to do things and
776. 01:03:38 How she can help other people do that is really great. I just think there's something off with how she articulates it in written form
777. 01:03:47 Great. Okay laziness
778. 01:03:49 We keep divulging maybe that's my fault divulging diverging pick the right words
779. 01:03:54 That's that's the point. That's the moral of the story pick the right words. I'm not good at words are hard
780. 01:03:58 Correct words are very hard. So we talk about laziness and we talk about confidence now
781. 01:04:02 This is where I think you know you made the comment that these are all kind of a form of
782. 01:04:07 Procrastination I think this and the next one both break that mold
783. 01:04:12 So there's impulsivity procrastination forgetfulness laziness those four I could I in my brain
784. 01:04:18 I can get those into procrastination
785. 01:04:20 Confidence I feel like is very different
786. 01:04:23 Hmm again, this is me and I say that because it doesn't feel like
787. 01:04:29 The sort of thing that leads me to putting things off because I know that
788. 01:04:34 Like I'm very confident in some areas, but I'm also very
789. 01:04:38 Hesitance and other areas and feel insecure in those areas. So again, it depends on the realm we're talking about but
790. 01:04:46 Confidence I don't and maybe I'm just thinking about it wrong
791. 01:04:50 But I don't think of that as something that could be lumped underneath of procrastination
792. 01:04:53 So maybe I need you to explain how you got there with that. Well, I
793. 01:04:57 Guess there's a couple things
794. 01:05:00 One from this chapter she talks about once we offer advice to somebody else we feel like we need to follow it
795. 01:05:06 So it could be that we know the right thing to do and we procrastinate on
796. 01:05:12 Doing it and then once we tell people oh you should really work out three times a week or eat healthier
797. 01:05:19 Then all of a sudden we're able to overcome the procrastination and work out three times a week or eat healthier
798. 01:05:25 She also talks about self efficacy in this section
799. 01:05:29 Which is a person's confidence in their ability to control their own behavior?
800. 01:05:33 And I feel like if you developed your self efficacy
801. 01:05:38 You would be able to follow through on the intentions that you set an overcome procrastination
802. 01:05:43 I don't know. I guess that connects the dots in my head
803. 01:05:48 But there's probably another way to connect those same dots too. I will say I like this chapter. I
804. 01:05:55 like the
805. 01:05:58 suggestion to create a mulligan plan for exercise I put writing that's one of my action items here not specifically for writing
806. 01:06:06 But like the different areas in my life where I want to do this consistently, but it's not an everyday thing
807. 01:06:11 I want to figure out what my mulligan system is because tied to this idea is if you start the week
808. 01:06:17 Well, you're more likely to follow through and finish well
809. 01:06:21 So the idea of the mulligan is like I have
810. 01:06:23 If I'm gonna you know work out three times a week and I do it Monday and Wednesday
811. 01:06:29 I've still got that
812. 01:06:30 I do that because I don't want to burn up my mulligan at the beginning of the week
813. 01:06:33 But once I do it at the beginning of the week, it's more likely that I'm not going to need to use it at the end
814. 01:06:39 Does that make sense did I explain that okay?
815. 01:06:41 I think so I think if I couple what you just said with what Blake just put in the chat
816. 01:06:47 so
817. 01:06:48 It if I follow that if you're not confident in the task
818. 01:06:51 I'm coming up to a higher level than what you were just talking about if I am not confident in
819. 01:06:58 Doing the task. I'm more likely to not do it. So is that a?
820. 01:07:02 Summation of what not summation summarization of what you're saying basically but lack of confidence in doing the task could be
821. 01:07:10 manifested a lot of different ways
822. 01:07:13 for me it's not a lack of
823. 01:07:16 Confidence in my ability to sit down and crank out words
824. 01:07:21 but maybe it's my lack of confidence in
825. 01:07:25 Knowing what I should be writing about because I haven't taken the time to
826. 01:07:30 Articulate what the prompt is gonna be and gain clarity on the the task at hand
827. 01:07:36 I mean there's a lot of a lot of productivity advice that talks about project management breaking things down into bite-sized chunks
828. 01:07:43 So that you are confident that you can take action and finish them
829. 01:07:47 Or just having the clarity of the path forward for the thing is often enough for me to follow through when I have this
830. 01:07:55 General idea of this thing that I need to do at some point
831. 01:07:58 I kind of just put it off and I can figure that out later and then I wait too long
832. 01:08:04 It's down to the deadline like force myself to sit down and figure out what really needs to be done for this
833. 01:08:11 And then I kill myself to get it done because I'm working super hard right at the end
834. 01:08:16 But gosh darn it. I'm gonna get it done because I committed to it right right
835. 01:08:20 So one of the things that she mentions to help build confidence is
836. 01:08:26 giving advice to others on the topic that you're struggling with confidence in and
837. 01:08:32 I think this is this feels really weird it does it's so backwards, but I
838. 01:08:39 Will never forget there was a quote in a movie movies called Luther
839. 01:08:43 It's about the life of Martin Luther
840. 01:08:45 not Martin Luther King junior Martin Luther and
841. 01:08:49 He in the movie anyway, he made his mentor made the comment that we teach what we need to learn best
842. 01:08:58 Was the way that he put it and yeah, I don't know if that comes from elsewhere
843. 01:09:04 But that was the first place I've heard it so we teach what we need to learn best and I know this because I've talked to enough of them
844. 01:09:12 but
845. 01:09:13 Bloggers and podcasters and youtubers and such like people who work in the creator economy just in general
846. 01:09:19 Apply that to the max
847. 01:09:22 This is totally me my my entire career is built on this and it's a fine line to walk where you are saying
848. 01:09:30 I am figuring this out and this is what I've learned as opposed to coming across as the expert
849. 01:09:35 And this is what you need to do correct
850. 01:09:37 But I think I think if you can figure out how to do that authentically and really for me
851. 01:09:43 It's just framing it that way is like these are my experiments and this is what I'm learning
852. 01:09:46 Try it on for yourself, you know, see if it works
853. 01:09:50 But once you figure out how to how to do that
854. 01:09:53 That's the only way to do this Sean McCabe would say teach what you know
855. 01:09:57 Right, but what you know is what you just figured out and are most excited about correct and Gary Vee would call it documenting
856. 01:10:03 Instead of creating like let's sure just document what I'm doing right now
857. 01:10:08 Instead of trying to package it up in something neat and but again like if you look at creators online
858. 01:10:14 most of what we do is give advice on how to do things and in
859. 01:10:19 One form like it's to help the people who were able to listen to us in this case and
860. 01:10:25 On the other hand it's to help us gain the confidence we need to follow through on the thing that we're giving advice about
861. 01:10:31 maybe the the differentiation that needs to
862. 01:10:34 Happen here is just getting rid of the word advice because advice feels very prescriptive. Yeah
863. 01:10:40 Yeah, for sure. So anyway, I mean there's there's so many different ways we could take that one
864. 01:10:44 But yes, I feel like a lot of what people do online is like yes
865. 01:10:48 They teach and it's some of it so that we can learn ourselves or we're teaching what we're in the middle of learning
866. 01:10:55 and I don't know if other people do this I know but
867. 01:10:58 But I know that in my case
868. 01:11:01 Whenever I teach something online. It's usually like okay
869. 01:11:04 I'm gonna teach people how to do
870. 01:11:06 This type of scripting or how to make this script work or how to let's use an omni focus example
871. 01:11:11 Here's how you can do scheduled reviews and omni focus like I'm gonna teach people how to do that
872. 01:11:15 How do you do that? I have no clue, but I need to do that
873. 01:11:18 So I'm gonna go to teaching people how to do that that way I can figure out how to do it like that's see
874. 01:11:23 even the word teaching sounds
875. 01:11:26 better than
876. 01:11:28 Giving advice in my opinion because it's I don't know
877. 01:11:32 You're trying to you're authentically trying to help somebody as opposed to just solving a problem for someone right right?
878. 01:11:38 And I you know even if you use the word consulting like whenever I've done even paid consulting
879. 01:11:43 I feel like I learned an awful lot about myself whenever I'm consulting other people on what to do like
880. 01:11:47 It's so weird so backwards, but yes, it does work that way
881. 01:11:52 I guess maybe my pushback on this specific thing would be
882. 01:11:56 To reframe this you know once we offer advice to someone else we feel the need to follow it
883. 01:12:02 Even something as simple as once we teach somebody something we feel like we need to follow through on it
884. 01:12:08 That seems like a less abrasive way to say that yeah for sure the other one she talks about here
885. 01:12:15 Under the confidence umbrella is the growth mindset
886. 01:12:18 You can't get away from Carol Dweck no matter where you want to go and she comes up here again
887. 01:12:22 So not a bad thing
888. 01:12:26 But anyway if you have that growth mindset
889. 01:12:28 It helps you build your confidence in that area because you know you can always learn more and you can work towards that
890. 01:12:34 That's my summarization of it good summary anything else on confidence Mike
891. 01:12:38 Now it's going to the next one all right so the last one here before we get to like the wrap-up chapter is called conformity
892. 01:12:46 just what it sounds like following social norms and
893. 01:12:49 doing what other people are doing is the
894. 01:12:53 Thing to change I guess but you can take advantage of that and do things for good not always like just
895. 01:13:01 sticking to the pattern of you know herd mentality and such one of those that I thought was interesting and this is
896. 01:13:08 Not to keep bringing up the productivity space
897. 01:13:11 but this is definitely something that comes up a lot the concept of copy paste on
898. 01:13:16 Habits and actions and methods. Yeah, and she calls this out because like if okay if you're not doing well in school
899. 01:13:23 Find somebody who is and ask them how they study like that's that's the mindset right? That's the method
900. 01:13:29 You could apply this to almost any work scenario like okay. Well, how are you producing all the things that you are?
901. 01:13:36 How are you writing so many articles? Well, what is your writing habit look like?
902. 01:13:41 Let me talk to somebody who does this and does it really well
903. 01:13:44 That's what you should do if you want to be a podcaster will find somebody who's really good at it
904. 01:13:49 Don't talk to me don't talk to Mike Mike's not good at podcasting terrible absolute horrible
905. 01:13:54 Go listen to focus. It's way better than bookworm right so if you
906. 01:13:58 Follow somebody who's really good at podcasting and you feel like you're not a very good podcaster
907. 01:14:03 Talk to them figure out what it is that they do in most cases. They're probably gonna be able to explain to you some of the details of
908. 01:14:08 Why it works well copy paste? I mean, it's just doing that but so much of the productivity space is built on that right?
909. 01:14:14 We try to share a lot of what we're doing and then you see what other people are doing like
910. 01:14:20 Oh, I want to try that too. So you copy paste that method into yourself
911. 01:14:24 Which sometimes works and sometimes does not so you have to be a little bit careful with that one
912. 01:14:28 so I really like this section because
913. 01:14:32 If I were to summarize my entire
914. 01:14:35 Productivity journey it would be Mike figures out how to copy and paste from other people
915. 01:14:44 Mike gets a job teaching people to copy and paste Mike realizes that there are a whole lot of people who are putting
916. 01:14:53 Their definitive stamp on this is the way only way to do things by saying copy and paste
917. 01:14:58 Mike going all the way the other way and saying actually you have to figure all of this out for yourself and then coming back because she
918. 01:15:06 Articulated it so well into saying well. Yeah, obviously this would be the logical place for anybody to start
919. 01:15:13 I feel like the copy and paste that she describes it
920. 01:15:17 Which is a strategy for gold achievement where you imitate the methods of someone who has achieved it that is very
921. 01:15:23 sustained and doesn't have any of the negative flavor of
922. 01:15:28 what I
923. 01:15:30 dislike about certain things in the the productivity space which we kind of talked about already today I
924. 01:15:36 Don't think this is a bad idea
925. 01:15:38 I think you have to recognize that it's not going to be one-to-one
926. 01:15:42 And you're not going to get the exact same results as the people that you are looking up to but yeah, if you're trying to
927. 01:15:50 Do something better? Why not find somebody who has done it?
928. 01:15:54 Excellently and just watch what they do and try to imitate it. I mean
929. 01:15:58 Imitation is how kids learn kids
930. 01:16:02 when they are
931. 01:16:04 Real little they can't say certain words, but they hear mom and dad say them over and over again
932. 01:16:10 And then they try to say him and it's clumsy at first and they don't understand what they mean
933. 01:16:15 But over time they just keep imitating they keep repeating it and they just keep getting better at it
934. 01:16:20 I feel like there's a pattern here to be followed for the rest of our life
935. 01:16:25 With this so after reading this I actually feel a lot better about this and it kind of was one of those aha moments that helped me reconcile this
936. 01:16:34 Cognitive dissonance in in my brain between like I don't like when people just profess
937. 01:16:39 This is the thing to do and just do this and you'll save an hour a day every day for the rest of your life
938. 01:16:43 but also I feel like it's a maybe bit a bit of a
939. 01:16:49 Huge burden to go the other way and say you know
940. 01:16:52 This is just what I did and don't try to copy this because this is only what works for me
941. 01:16:56 And you're gonna have to figure it out for yourself
942. 01:16:57 If I'm somebody who's receiving that advice and I'm new to this whole world
943. 01:17:02 I might get discouraged by that and be like oh, I guess this just isn't for me
944. 01:17:07 You know, but you can go a long way simply by
945. 01:17:10 Imitating something that somebody else has has done
946. 01:17:14 There there's a lot of different places you can go with this of course, but to me
947. 01:17:19 Copy and pace is a great like starting point like what you're saying and it's very nuanced like whenever you
948. 01:17:26 Get into task management. It's probably best to find somebody who's doing it
949. 01:17:32 Well who works in a sector that you also work in and copy pace what they're doing like this totally fine
950. 01:17:37 There's nothing wrong with that and then over time you'll find other people who are doing the same thing
951. 01:17:43 but slightly different and you may tweak your methods based on that and
952. 01:17:47 As time goes on you start to realize well, okay
953. 01:17:50 here are all the nuances of how mine's different than theirs and then you start making those adjustments for
954. 01:17:54 yourself and
955. 01:17:57 Then you start the process of developing kind of your own process your own system and
956. 01:18:02 It becomes truly yours and then you can eventually get to the point beyond that even where you start
957. 01:18:10 Reevaluating the entire system itself like we were talking early on about task management and how
958. 01:18:16 Like I'd use a task management kind of system
959. 01:18:20 But it's very very morphed and very fluid and it sounds like Mike's is kind of getting into that as well
960. 01:18:27 So like between us like we're kind of coming to that point in the journey as well where you start like
961. 01:18:32 reevaluating entire architectures all at one time instead of what tags do I use for
962. 01:18:38 My tasks and omni focus like it's very very high level in comparison to that
963. 01:18:45 So anyway, all I have to say I feel like copy paste is a good place to start
964. 01:18:49 It's okay to be in that conformity world as she's calling it here
965. 01:18:54 But it is you know definitely a place to to get you going and it can definitely bring about great change
966. 01:19:00 If you're willing to embrace that yeah, I think the the trick for me
967. 01:19:05 And I'm glad she called this out in this chapter is the false consensus effect and this is where
968. 01:19:11 we have this tendency to
969. 01:19:15 incorrectly assume
970. 01:19:17 That people are going to respond to the world the same way that we do and I think just recognizing this
971. 01:19:25 Helps a lot for someone in my position who is writing about these things and sharing these things and not wanting to be disingenuous
972. 01:19:35 And not trying to profess to have all the answers. I feel like just recognizing this false consensus effect
973. 01:19:44 Helps mitigate a lot of that but then also once you recognize that feel free to own what works for you
974. 01:19:51 Right right for sure. So let's let's go on to the last chapter here, which is changing for good
975. 01:19:57 I don't really have anything to say here other than she just takes a chapter to explain that if you want to
976. 01:20:03 Get your change to stick keep playing the tricks
977. 01:20:08 Like keep doing the things you're like whatever the like if you're using reminders keep it up
978. 01:20:13 if you're
979. 01:20:15 Changing your defaults keep doing that if you are
980. 01:20:18 Teaching people how to do something to build your confidence and keep doing that like that's it's basically what she's saying here
981. 01:20:24 Which I don't really know how else she's supposed to end this but that
982. 01:20:28 Seems to be a logical point to end it on and just like okay that that didn't really like tie everything off in a nice
983. 01:20:36 Little pretty bow for me like come on. You had a chance here
984. 01:20:39 I say that and yet I have no idea how she like what she should have done
985. 01:20:42 So I can't see too much because I don't have a true solution for her. All right, so let me propose a different
986. 01:20:48 Scenario here before we get into the
987. 01:20:52 Style and rating okay, how to change the science of overcoming procrastination by Katie milkman
988. 01:21:01 All right, okay chapter one is getting started chapter two is impulsivity
989. 01:21:08 Chapter three is integrity
990. 01:21:10 Chapter four is forgetfulness
991. 01:21:12 Chapter five is laziness chapter six is confidence chapter seven is conformity chapter eight is changing for good. How do you feel?
992. 01:21:21 About this book after chapter eight. Okay, so
993. 01:21:25 Explain your change from I understand your overall book concepts
994. 01:21:32 What's under integrity that was the one that you changed?
995. 01:21:36 Everything else is exactly the same, but this is all about not doing what we say we're going to do sure
996. 01:21:43 That's why we have these commitment devices. That's why the banks automatically
997. 01:21:47 Will save things for us and charge this appendity if we don't go over or if we don't follow through with it the
998. 01:21:53 overly optimistic people and
999. 01:21:55 Their ability to overcome self-control problems through willpower
1000. 01:21:58 Like this is all about follow-through in this this chapter in my opinion. Yeah, so that's why I branded integrity
1001. 01:22:05 But you could pick a different term there and you still kind of see the arc now though
1002. 01:22:09 All of this stuff tying back to procrastination as the big idea
1003. 01:22:14 Instead of getting from where you are to where you want to be
1004. 01:22:18 Hmm. I like it Mike because you're true
1005. 01:22:20 I even like the term like integrity like it's basically following through on what you've intended or committed to right?
1006. 01:22:27 Yeah, when I look at I had the three points there the locked bank accounts the commitment devices the sophisticated and naive
1007. 01:22:34 like those are all right in that category. So yeah, I could get on board with that and
1008. 01:22:39 I suspect that my opinion of the entire book is probably quite different if that were the case
1009. 01:22:44 Because looking at the the chapter and the arc here because chapter 8
1010. 01:22:52 Like you said, this is the big bow on the end and inspiring us to keep going talking about how change actually requires a lifetime of treatment
1011. 01:22:59 Maintaining change is easier than initiating it need to rethink your strategies from time to time
1012. 01:23:04 This is the call to action to just keep going but the call to what yep the call to fix what?
1013. 01:23:10 To achieve my maximum potential to become who I want to be I don't feel like that's the right
1014. 01:23:18 Call to action based on the content that we got
1015. 01:23:21 But if you're calling me to live a life where I don't succumb to procrastination anymore
1016. 01:23:27 That feels very much more achievable
1017. 01:23:30 So I guess I say that just because having talked through this with you
1018. 01:23:34 I didn't realize this until we were starting to talk through this that a lot of this stuff does tie back to the topic of procrastination for me and
1019. 01:23:41 the issue I had with the
1020. 01:23:44 disingenuousness really is just kind of a mislabeling of
1021. 01:23:49 The promise at the beginning of the the book. So this would be
1022. 01:23:54 Okay, I think what this is is a disconnect between
1023. 01:23:58 expectations and reality
1024. 01:24:02 right is that fair because yep what we expected seems to have a disconnect from what we've
1025. 01:24:08 like worked our way through here and
1026. 01:24:10 That's not necessarily bad in every case
1027. 01:24:15 But when you critique books at the level that we're critiquing them. I think that's a fairly major
1028. 01:24:21 miss and I don't know if I should put that on Katie or if I should put that on
1029. 01:24:27 the publisher because I suspect
1030. 01:24:31 Again, like if you follow what I was talking about earlier, that is a really good point
1031. 01:24:36 If I see a book that says how to change and has this particular
1032. 01:24:41 Outline to it with impulsivity procrastination forgetfulness laziness and so on if I see that list and it says how to change like
1033. 01:24:48 that's what got me to commit to it and
1034. 01:24:51 I'm quite certain. That's a lot of what has sold the book to date
1035. 01:24:55 but what you're proposing would be a more accurate representation I think of
1036. 01:25:00 What's inside of it, but I'm not
1037. 01:25:04 Convinced that's necessarily Katie's part in the fight. I suspect like that may not even be her call to make no
1038. 01:25:11 Absolutely not. So I think it's possible that there is
1039. 01:25:17 Something else involved there because you know obviously she's wanting to get her
1040. 01:25:21 Research out there and this does do that for sure. I just don't know how much of like the overarching
1041. 01:25:28 Format of this was outside her influence. So I I want to keep that in mind as well because I'm very aware like publishers
1042. 01:25:37 Have tons of weight on what goes into the final product?
1043. 01:25:42 We're an authors writing it because they're of course trying to sell it. So there's definitely a marketing play into what's in the book as well
1044. 01:25:50 So there's that all right. So there's the book should we step into action items?
1045. 01:25:56 Let's do it. This will be fun. I didn't mention this
1046. 01:26:00 Earlier on when we did it but in the getting started section where we're talking about fresh starts
1047. 01:26:04 That made a lot of sense to me that like those are really good times to make changes and
1048. 01:26:10 That those are the times to implement those
1049. 01:26:12 I know that there's a lot of things that I'm in the middle of trying to change and I feel like just paying attention and looking out for those
1050. 01:26:20 Could be helpful some of those are big scale some of those are small scale
1051. 01:26:24 And I feel like just noticing those would be helpful no idea how you
1052. 01:26:28 Mark that one off, but it's a good thing to keep an eye on the other one I wrote down is to be more intentional with
1053. 01:26:36 time-based
1054. 01:26:38 reminders and cues I guess because I'm I'm really bad about I need to do this next Friday and
1055. 01:26:45 I can put it on a Friday list. I can put up the reminder for it
1056. 01:26:51 I can make a do reminder for it, but I'm not good about picking when that happens
1057. 01:26:55 I just kind of set it for seven or eight o'clock that morning and like
1058. 01:26:58 Oh, yeah
1059. 01:26:59 I need to do that today and then I get it out of the way and then it's gone and then it doesn't happen
1060. 01:27:03 So I need to figure out a better way to to do that
1061. 01:27:07 so I've got those two that I'll formally commit to but I also know that like there's a lot here that
1062. 01:27:11 Like we've talked about or we've discussed
1063. 01:27:14 but I hadn't really thought about them in this way with a book about procrastination and I haven't really
1064. 01:27:20 Processed that in that form. So I think I need to
1065. 01:27:24 Sit with us a little bit and see what comes from it. So anyway, I'll commit to those two for now. All right
1066. 01:27:30 I've got two also
1067. 01:27:32 that I mentioned as we went so the first one was to
1068. 01:27:36 Recognize and find more opportunities for those fresh starts. I guess in terms of follow-up
1069. 01:27:42 I'll make a list of the times that I identify whether I'm going to use them right now or they're
1070. 01:27:50 In the future. I feel like having a list of those times would would be helpful
1071. 01:27:55 And then the other one is to create that mulligan plan and it's just simply I'm gonna
1072. 01:28:01 Exercise three times a week or whatever run however many times a week and then if I don't do it on
1073. 01:28:07 This day, then I give myself permission to take the mulligan, but I'm still shooting for like the number of times per week
1074. 01:28:13 Streaks does a great job of tracking the sort of stuff because you can actually
1075. 01:28:18 Track like I want to do this X number of times a week and then once you're done it for the week it it
1076. 01:28:23 completes the
1077. 01:28:25 The habit right I don't think I want to track it necessarily there
1078. 01:28:29 But I want to actually write out and articulate my plan for the different areas of my life that I want to be able to use
1079. 01:28:36 The mulligans makes sense like I said brings us to style and reading
1080. 01:28:42 I don't know how much more I should say about style since we've spent like half this episode talking about the style of this book
1081. 01:28:47 but I will just say like I feel like there's a lot to be gained from
1082. 01:28:52 Passing this through maybe a different set of editors potentially
1083. 01:28:57 I think you're right Mike and that there's a lot of this that could be just relabeled and the content could stay the same at the same time
1084. 01:29:05 I I really want her to spend some more time making this a little more I
1085. 01:29:11 Guess connectable would be I don't know if that's the right term for it
1086. 01:29:15 But something that makes it easier to grasp and relate to in a way that
1087. 01:29:20 makes sense long-term
1088. 01:29:23 because there's a lot of this is geared towards like short-term effects like I did this and it made this met massive difference and then I got that and
1089. 01:29:31 It only lasted for a week or it lasted for a month or this was over two months like there was a lot of that
1090. 01:29:37 Which is why she had to put the last chapter of how do you make this permanent?
1091. 01:29:41 Which was basically just keep doing it don't take the the prompts away and it it felt a little
1092. 01:29:48 Shortened because of that not a short book, but it just doesn't seem to connect real well
1093. 01:29:54 So I'm not sure what needs to change there other than just maybe a slight tweak to how some of the research and stories are shared
1094. 01:30:00 We've obviously talked about the labeling piece and how to make those edits. So
1095. 01:30:06 Overall as like far as a book though
1096. 01:30:09 Like there's a lot here that I feel like I I learned something from there
1097. 01:30:13 There's a lot of stuff here that's definitely spot on especially if you're brand new to behavior change
1098. 01:30:17 Like this could be very helpful. I'm aware that some personality types are gonna gravitate towards this and it's gonna be amazing for you and
1099. 01:30:25 I envy you in this case and I just know that there's a lot of this that doesn't apply to me
1100. 01:30:31 Knowing how my brain works and knowing that I've tried some of this stuff and it doesn't work even close
1101. 01:30:36 That is something. It's a red flag to me. So I I'm not aware that I have to watch some of that
1102. 01:30:42 So again, I think there's some really good things in here and I've definitely learned some things from this
1103. 01:30:47 I you know the whole concept of I want to get one good nugget out of a book and then it was worth the read it definitely does have that
1104. 01:30:54 Like I'm not like I'm it's not like I'm upset that I picked this to go through. So it's definitely something
1105. 01:30:59 I'm grateful for having red just have a lot of critiques. That's all
1106. 01:31:03 So there's just a lot of things that I feel could be improved that said as far as how to radate
1107. 01:31:07 If I focus on all the negative side of course
1108. 01:31:11 I could get myself down to a two if I wanted to just focus on those one or two great nuggets
1109. 01:31:15 I could probably get myself to a 4.5 like I could get there. It's definitely not five territory
1110. 01:31:19 So as far as like what I want to rate this has I think I am gonna still put this at a 4.0
1111. 01:31:24 Like I know that it's got a lot that it needs I find but at the same time if you kind of
1112. 01:31:33 Work your way around some of these bigger categories
1113. 01:31:36 Like and maybe don't get too hung up on
1114. 01:31:38 semantics on what she titles the chapters and
1115. 01:31:42 focus on a lot of like the little tricks and the tactics that she has underneath of those and
1116. 01:31:47 Divorce them from the chapter title if you do that. There's a lot of really cool
1117. 01:31:51 Research here and a lot of good little tips and tricks to help you get past some of the hang-ups you have to making
1118. 01:31:59 change in your life and
1119. 01:32:01 She's not wrong like using those tips long-term can be helpful. I just wanted to wrap it up better
1120. 01:32:07 That's all so I will still put it at 4.0. That's probably a bit of a surprise rating
1121. 01:32:11 All right
1122. 01:32:12 Well, I still have my issues with some of the stuff like the New Year's resolutions
1123. 01:32:17 You will never convince me that those are actually there you should be doing Mike
1124. 01:32:21 But that being said I do feel like there's some good stuff in here her style is I don't think really my
1125. 01:32:30 cup of tea if
1126. 01:32:32 I was gonna have to rate this based off of you know
1127. 01:32:37 My outline and going through it on my own I was ready to rate it at a 3.0
1128. 01:32:42 Having talked through it with you and recognizing that if it's framed through the lens of
1129. 01:32:47 Overcoming procrastination this makes a lot more sense to me. I would probably rate it at a 4.0
1130. 01:32:53 I'm gonna split the difference and label it and rate it at 3.5 again
1131. 01:32:59 I think there's some good stuff in here
1132. 01:33:00 It really just doesn't tie together well for me and I don't think you can just discount the fact that
1133. 01:33:07 the
1134. 01:33:08 Title feels a little misleading and being like oh, it's not her fault. It's the it's the
1135. 01:33:14 The publisher the editor or whatever like ultimately your name is on it
1136. 01:33:19 So this is your message and it just feels a little disjointed to me
1137. 01:33:25 There is some good stuff in here especially viewed through the lens of overcoming procrastination as opposed to
1138. 01:33:31 Forever behavior change again if you're looking for a behavior change book
1139. 01:33:36 there is
1140. 01:33:37 There are better resources in my opinion than than this one, but I
1141. 01:33:42 am really fascinated by the title of overcoming procrastination
1142. 01:33:45 I don't know that we have addressed a book specifically designed to do that
1143. 01:33:51 Maybe that's a hole in the market that seems like an opportunity for someone to write that specific book
1144. 01:33:57 But that's how this that's what this one feels like
1145. 01:33:59 As soon as I frame it that way a lot of this stuff. I see the arc now. I can see the the flow
1146. 01:34:06 I'm not sure if I would recommend this one. It's hard for me to say yeah pick up a book titled this but disregard the title
1147. 01:34:13 This book is not about how to change. It's how to deal the procrastination. Yeah, I don't I don't know how to reconcile that in my brain
1148. 01:34:23 I do think like you said I am glad that I read it
1149. 01:34:28 There's some nuggets in here that are going to stick with me. Yeah, how moment with the copy and paste and
1150. 01:34:35 my issue with the experts in the productivity field
1151. 01:34:40 And not wanting to be one of those guys
1152. 01:34:43 And I say guys because they almost all are our guys the ones that I can I can picture in my head
1153. 01:34:49 I feel like that's valuable
1154. 01:34:51 But overall I don't know not not my favorite book
1155. 01:34:55 I want to reiterate though that this is the first time going through a book where I didn't really enjoy the book
1156. 01:35:02 But I walk away from it being impressed with the person
1157. 01:35:06 I don't know I feel like when I read books at this point. I am not easily impressed
1158. 01:35:11 Sure, so the fact that I feel this way about Katie milkman is a little bit
1159. 01:35:19 Surprising to me, but I do think that
1160. 01:35:24 There is a better story to tell from the research that she has done
1161. 01:35:31 And I feel like she is on to something with some of this stuff
1162. 01:35:35 It just needs a little bit of refinement in how it is packaged sure all right
1163. 01:35:41 Let's put that one on the shelf Mike
1164. 01:35:43 What's what will we cover next time next time is?
1165. 01:35:47 Personal Socrates by Mark champagne have you started this book yet? No, I'm gonna pick it up when I get home tonight
1166. 01:35:55 All right. Well, it's gonna be interesting. It's definitely
1167. 01:36:00 Gonna break the format so we'll have to talk about how we're gonna handle that. I have read the
1168. 01:36:07 introduction and he shares a story about how
1169. 01:36:12 he was
1170. 01:36:14 Running this company that had made this this app and I forget the name of the app
1171. 01:36:18 But it had a gazillion downloads millions and millions of downloads and he was
1172. 01:36:23 Hovering over the button to completely delete it from the app store
1173. 01:36:26 And he was gonna completely change his life and at the back of the book it says at any point
1174. 01:36:30 We are one question away from a different life. Yeah, so I
1175. 01:36:34 Love this this topic of asking the right questions
1176. 01:36:39 And I feel like this is gonna be a fascinating conversation
1177. 01:36:41 but
1178. 01:36:43 It'll be also be interesting because we're gonna have to figure out how to make it work for for bookworm
1179. 01:36:47 Yeah, those are sometimes fun books though
1180. 01:36:49 I will say like I got the book on the mail and I thought I had ordered the wrong thing
1181. 01:36:56 Because it showed up in its own box
1182. 01:36:58 Like it's got an actual box to go on the shelf
1183. 01:37:02 So you could pull it out of the box as you're gonna read it and when I got it
1184. 01:37:05 Wait, did I accidentally order like a CD version of this like what is this?
1185. 01:37:09 Like oh no, it's just packaged really nice. That's what it is
1186. 01:37:13 So that's been my first impression of it so far. So anyway, that one we'll cover next time following that
1187. 01:37:19 You need to pick up unwinding anxiety
1188. 01:37:22 By Judson Brewer this one might follow some of the same track. We just finished which is okay
1189. 01:37:29 But it's about the new the subtitle here new science shows how to break the cycles of worry and fear
1190. 01:37:36 to heal your mind and that's
1191. 01:37:39 I feel like something that's been heavy on a lot of people's minds
1192. 01:37:43 Worry and fear and anxiety and such and I feel like it would be good to just work through that a little bit together
1193. 01:37:50 whether we have our own anxiety that we need to work through which I know I do at least some and
1194. 01:37:54 Also understanding it well enough to help other people with it as well
1195. 01:37:59 So I feel like it would be a good one for us to cover sounds good any gap books my friend. I do I
1196. 01:38:06 have one called
1197. 01:38:08 digital dollars and cents by Jody Grunden I
1198. 01:38:12 am trying to up my
1199. 01:38:15 financial game
1200. 01:38:18 All right, I want to understand
1201. 01:38:20 counting better
1202. 01:38:22 specifically as it pertains to
1203. 01:38:24 businesses so this is a book that was recommended to me and I'm looking forward to
1204. 01:38:30 Diving into it. I know it's not going to be everybody's cup of tea, but I tend to find books that help me
1205. 01:38:38 Solve a problem that I am currently experiencing in my life. This is the one that is
1206. 01:38:43 Staring me in the face. So sure I want to I want to know what
1207. 01:38:48 What's going on?
1208. 01:38:49 Yep, sounds good. I don't have a gap book this time around though
1209. 01:38:53 I'm working on like adding more reading time to my schedule. I feel like I've been running too fast
1210. 01:38:57 I need to slow down so he goes so anyway, no gap books for Joe. However, I am very very grateful for those of you who have
1211. 01:39:05 Joined us live today and for those of you especially who are a part of our bookworm club membership program
1212. 01:39:13 We're super grateful to have you in the club and it's thanks to you that we're able to keep putting this show on and
1213. 01:39:20 Keep buying the books and keep
1214. 01:39:23 keep producing these so we're very grateful to you and
1215. 01:39:26 It's not just our undying gratitude that you get when you support the show from your five dollars a month
1216. 01:39:33 But you also get a really cool
1217. 01:39:35 desktop background mics my node vials and such
1218. 01:39:39 access to a special place on the club
1219. 01:39:43 Which is like a forum so if you go to club.bookworm.fm/membership
1220. 01:39:49 It will get you there and you can sign up and we'd love to have you as part of that club
1221. 01:39:54 Alright, so if you are reading along with us
1222. 01:39:57 Pick up personal Socrates by Mark champagne and we will talk to you in a couple of weeks