196: Why We Sleep by Matthew Walker

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1. 00:00:00 All right, so we got to go to follow up. Let's do follow up from last week. I will start. So
2. 00:00:06 one of my things was looking at the 36 questions from the fast friends procedure and that fast friends
3. 00:00:15 procedure, which is very difficult to say quickly, actually has sort of been named differently. And
4. 00:00:21 now it's called what increasing closeness. So if you look at it, and this is from the Greater Good
5. 00:00:27 Science Center, you look at it now, it's about 36 questions for increasing closeness. And I looked
6. 00:00:33 at these and I think these are a wonderful set of questions. I mean, I think they're an absolutely
7. 00:00:38 wonderful set of questions. You can easily see how going through some or all of these would really
8. 00:00:44 help you connect with whoever that you're connecting with, regardless of whether you would answer them
9. 00:00:49 the same or whether, you know, you would answer them completely differently. You would learn a lot
10. 00:00:54 about the people. Some of them are like, intense is the wrong word, but I don't have a better word
11. 00:00:59 for it. Like some of them are like, Oh, wow, like that is a really deep question, right? I'm not so
12. 00:01:05 sure I'd feel comfortable talking to somebody about that. But overall, the 36 questions are really,
13. 00:01:10 really good. I recommend I'll throw the link in the show notes. So if people want to check those
14. 00:01:16 out, they can go to the site at Berkeley, the Greater Good in Action site. Okay, my second one
15. 00:01:23 was to pay attention to throw away identity comments, which I have noticed has actually been way easier
16. 00:01:28 than I thought it was going to be. So before, you know, when I'm introing a conversation or
17. 00:01:32 I'm introing a point, I think about, okay, what phrasing am I going to use? And is that going to be
18. 00:01:38 a sign of identity that I'm forcing on somebody? Or is that going to be a sign of identity that's
19. 00:01:43 going to bring us together? And I'm more strategic about that, which actually has been very, um,
20. 00:01:49 very good. So I'm glad that I threw that out there as an action item. And I've been thinking about this,
21. 00:01:56 and I want to keep thinking about this because I think when you do it well, it really makes
22. 00:02:02 that conversation effective or leads into that, you know, the question or whatever you're trying
23. 00:02:06 to do, the point you're trying to make. And when you do it poorly, man, you can really step on
24. 00:02:12 somebody's toes and put your foot in your mouth when you're not thinking about it. So those are
25. 00:02:16 my two action items. Like, what did you have for follow up? I had a couple, which I didn't actually
26. 00:02:22 get a chance to take action on. One was use do you want to be and then fill in the blank.
27. 00:02:27 It was heard, hugged or helped. And Rachel and I just did not have a chance to really talk much
28. 00:02:37 about this. So that's kind of the final version of the like this action item is completed when I
29. 00:02:43 get a chance to actually explain how this works. And then if she's on board, we build this into,
30. 00:02:50 you know, how we actually communicate. But we didn't have a chance to do that. We're recording
31. 00:02:55 this one at a shorter little bit of a shorter window between the last episode and this one.
32. 00:02:59 And things have been absolutely bonkers for us. We have a couple of kids in a play and was
33. 00:03:05 basically there all day last Saturday, Saturday is normally our our day to do stuff together. And
34. 00:03:12 didn't really happen. So the other one was a rephrase common questions to spark deep conversation.
35. 00:03:17 And I don't have a I didn't have a chance to practice this one either. I haven't been in those
36. 00:03:22 situations. So I don't know. I don't think I'm going to carry this one over because I don't know
37. 00:03:28 when I'll actually be able to take action on this one. But I am thinking about that. You know, I'm in
38. 00:03:33 those group settings. How can I kind of spark some deeper conversation? And by changing some of the
39. 00:03:39 common questions that they they gave us. But I don't also want to create a template for these.
40. 00:03:46 I don't want to have like a list of these that I just go to. I feel like I can do this in the
41. 00:03:50 moment and it'll be just fine. I did check out the Netflix culture deck. So you shared the link to
42. 00:03:55 the part on the website where they have the current explanation of their culture. But I did
43. 00:04:01 actually find the old culture deck as well, which was honestly much more interesting.
44. 00:04:09 There's some really cool stuff in there. And it's a whole bunch of pages. I don't even know how many
45. 00:04:17 pages it's got to be like 150 to 200 of 200 slides. And they have seven different things that they
46. 00:04:25 kind of hit on at the top. And then they go into big examples and explanations of what they all are.
47. 00:04:34 Oh, there's 125, I guess I just pulled it up. So there's seven aspects of their culture,
48. 00:04:39 values or what we value, high performance, freedom and responsibility, context, not control,
49. 00:04:43 highly aligned, loosely coupled, paid top of market promotions and development.
50. 00:04:46 Then they talk about how like just as an example, why that I think this is so great.
51. 00:04:51 The very first section, many companies have nice sounding value statements displayed in the lobby,
52. 00:04:55 such as integrity, communication, respect and excellence. Any idea where those are actually from?
53. 00:05:00 So that would be those motivation signs, these motivation pictures.
54. 00:05:05 Oh, no. Those are those were actually the ones that were on the wall in Enron. And so the next
55. 00:05:10 slide is like a picture of the Enron guy being led away in jail and handcuffs. So they're basically
56. 00:05:16 saying, you know, actual company values, as opposed to nice sounding values are shown by who gets
57. 00:05:21 rewarded, promoted and let go. So like, this is really cool in terms of setting the tone. But then
58. 00:05:25 I can also just looking through this, see where things maybe went off the rails a little bit,
59. 00:05:32 because they talk about how kind of what we mentioned in the last discussion, you just say
60. 00:05:39 the quiet part out loud. And they talk about in here, let's see, where is that section
61. 00:05:48 about? You don't want to be a jerk, essentially, but they frayed the way they frame it.
62. 00:05:55 It was, it leaves the door open to the scenario that we saw, essentially.
63. 00:06:02 And they could have taken, you know, a little bit harder stance on that. It's kind of interesting
64. 00:06:07 to see the difference between these and the ones that are currently on the website. They are like
65. 00:06:12 very, very different, very ambiguous compared to the ones that are in this deck, which I think the
66. 00:06:18 deck is actually really good. There's just a few things that I would have probably changed a little
67. 00:06:23 bit. But yeah, like, it's, I think this is, this is really great. I'll grab the link and I'll
68. 00:06:30 share this in the, the show notes for people who are interested in this. I'll paste it in the chat
69. 00:06:36 here so you can take a look at it too, Corey, if you, if you want. But I think there's a lot to be
70. 00:06:42 learned from looking at these, just modifying them a little bit to explicitly call out like,
71. 00:06:48 there are certain things that you just cannot say. Yeah, I was gonna, I was gonna ask you, like,
72. 00:06:54 how much modification do you think you would need to do to those? Like you started, you became the
73. 00:06:59 CEO of some big company, like, how much modification would you do before you'd implement that?
74. 00:07:04 Um, it's hard to quantify. Well, I think the template is here, you have to figure out the actual
75. 00:07:10 values that you, you want that those are the things that drive the culture. Like they kind of talk
76. 00:07:15 about that a little bit at the beginning of, of this deck. But then ultimately they're spot on in
77. 00:07:22 that like, you want to make sure that you're living these out all the time. So you can't have a value
78. 00:07:28 that's this thing. And then people act a certain way or they get rewarded for acting a different way.
79. 00:07:33 And that's, you know, they're, they're really good at giving explicit examples of that. So like,
80. 00:07:38 they say, we want really high performing people on our team. And that's the culture is they want
81. 00:07:44 this like excellence in performance. So they give out, they give examples. If you get consistent
82. 00:07:51 B level results, but you put in a level effort, you will get fired and given a general, they call
83. 00:07:57 it a generous severance package is how they, they frame it, you'll be given a generous severance
84. 00:08:03 package. If you get a level results, but you don't put in very much effort, you will get promoted
85. 00:08:11 and rewarded. Like they actually say that in their culture, like, I can't find the specific spot.
86. 00:08:16 There's so much in here, but yeah, they talk about there's a whole section on like brilliant
87. 00:08:22 jerks. So that's kind of where like they're starting to get into the scenario that we, we read about.
88. 00:08:29 But all they say is like, the ever styles are fine as long as a person embodies the nine values.
89. 00:08:34 So I think like that's where they need to go a little bit deeper because you could say,
90. 00:08:37 they embody the nine values, but they still got right through the coals because of something
91. 00:08:42 that legitimately they should have never said. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, just got to be a
92. 00:08:47 little bit more specific. But I think for the most part, it's a bold version anyways is really good.
93. 00:08:52 Awesome. I'm excited. I'm excited to look through it more. Thanks for sending the link over.
94. 00:08:59 All right. Are you ready to get in today's book? Let's do it. All right. So today's book is called
95. 00:09:04 Why We Sleep? And it's a by a Dr. Matthew Walker. And he is a neuroscientist and a sleep scientist
96. 00:09:13 and has done a massive amount of research around the idea of sleep and dreams. And the book is
97. 00:09:23 broken up into five and there's sorry, four parts and then a mini conclusion.
98. 00:09:29 And the parts are this thing called sleep, why you should sleep, how and why we dream,
99. 00:09:37 and then from sleeping pills to society transformed. Those are the four different parts.
100. 00:09:41 There are 16 total chapters in the book plus a conclusion. And the conclusion's like one page.
101. 00:09:46 So it's real small. 16 total chapters. So maybe a little bit different than we've done other books
102. 00:09:52 on bookworm, maybe not, but we're really going to talk about the parts, the one, two, three,
103. 00:09:57 four parts. We're not going to go through every one of the chapters. And part of the reason why
104. 00:10:03 I want to lead the conversation in that way is because I think there is, there are so many weeds
105. 00:10:09 that we could get lost in if we tried to do all 16 chapters that I one think it wouldn't be the
106. 00:10:15 best show that was ever ever produced just because there's so many different roads we could go down.
107. 00:10:21 But two, I don't think I don't think the individual specifics are as interesting from this book as
108. 00:10:28 the general takeaways are from the book. So I think that's the way I want to lead the conversation
109. 00:10:33 today. He even says this in the very, very like intro section of the book. I should point out
110. 00:10:40 that you need not read this book in this progressive four part narrative arc. Each chapter can and
111. 00:10:46 for the most part be read individually and out of order without losing too much of its significance.
112. 00:10:53 And I would tell you that that is 100% true. You could read these 16 chapters in whatever order
113. 00:10:59 you wanted to. They stand alone. They refer to research alone. He will refer back to other
114. 00:11:05 things that he's talked about in other chapters, but you wouldn't miss out other than to like,
115. 00:11:09 oh, I want to read about that more. So I'm going to go back to chapter two and read what he wrote
116. 00:11:13 in chapter two. So that's, I think, the direction I want to go. Mike, what do you have before we get
117. 00:11:18 into part one? Well, I think the sections are broken apart, maybe a little bit weird.
118. 00:11:28 Like there's a big emphasis in this book on how and why we dream. And I thought that was a little
119. 00:11:39 bit strange. I guess I was a little bit skeptical going into it that you could really dig
120. 00:11:46 too deep into how dreams are constructed. We'll get to specifics, I guess, when we get to that
121. 00:11:54 that section. But the overall flow of it felt a little bit strange. I like, you know, part one is
122. 00:12:01 obviously a deep dive into sleep itself. Why you should sleep. As we talked about in the
123. 00:12:09 Pro Show with our evening routines, this is something that has been on my radar for a long time,
124. 00:12:14 for personal reasons. When I was 18, I was diagnosed with epilepsy. I actually had a seizure while
125. 00:12:20 standing in line at a McDonald's. Unfortunately, there was a nurse on site who turned me on my side,
126. 00:12:25 kept me safe till they were able to take me to the hospital, do the tests. And yeah, so sleep is one
127. 00:12:31 of the things that I pay very close attention to because lack of sleep can be one of the things
128. 00:12:36 that triggers a seizure. So I am anxious to get to the discussion about that because I'm curious,
129. 00:12:44 I've been disconnected long enough that I'm curious how that actually hit with you. And then the last
130. 00:12:50 part about society transformed, like it's in the section title, but it's such a small piece at the
131. 00:12:55 very end that it was weird to me. Like, I wanted to get to that point and I'm cranking through the
132. 00:13:04 pages. I'm at like page 250. Nope, not there yet page 280. Nope, not there yet page 300. Nope,
133. 00:13:08 not there yet. Like, when are we going to get to the good stuff? But yeah, I mean, this guy,
134. 00:13:16 you look at his credentials, I think you actually said you looked up some talks that he had given
135. 00:13:21 or something like that. I didn't do that. But tons and tons of research go into this big long
136. 00:13:28 appendix. He's done a lot of the studies himself, obviously knows what he's talking about. And
137. 00:13:34 that's kind of evident right from the beginning. We're going to really go deep on this.
138. 00:13:39 Yeah. Yeah, so I can't remember, Mike, if you and I talked about it, or if I heard it somewhere else,
139. 00:13:44 so if it was you and I call that out, but somewhere I had heard that like, okay, when you're doing
140. 00:13:51 thinking work and creative work, you essentially gather all these resources and you think about
141. 00:13:56 all these things, but then you have these like working documents that have like active ideas on
142. 00:13:59 them. So you'll have this document that's like, oh, I want to write about creativity. So I have
143. 00:14:04 this creativity doc, but it's this gigantic working doc and you're throwing resources in and pulling
144. 00:14:09 resources out and you're linking to different things and basically you're generating ideas
145. 00:14:13 within this like creativity doc, but you might have that doc and then you might have a teamwork
146. 00:14:16 doc and then you might have a, you know, sleep doc or whatever it is. And you have all these working
147. 00:14:20 docs around the topic that you're that you care about. It's kind of what this felt like to me,
148. 00:14:24 right? So there was a binder that was called sleep. Then there was a binder that was called dreams.
149. 00:14:30 And inside of that binder, there was basically like the chapter headings and that was a working
150. 00:14:35 doc. And then the chapters were all written. And then it was brought back together into a book.
151. 00:14:42 Like that's the way I felt like where it wasn't mapped out from the beginning. And maybe I'm wrong,
152. 00:14:46 but it wasn't mapped out from the beginning. This would be the flow of a book. It was here like 16
153. 00:14:50 interesting ideas I have. And maybe there were probably 18 interesting ideas, but we're going to
154. 00:14:55 smush them into 16 chapters and we're going to we're going to write about them. Not necessarily
155. 00:15:00 bad in my mind, but that's the feel I got from from reading it. So all right, let's go ahead and
156. 00:15:07 move into part one. This thing called sleep. Now inside of part one, there are five chapters.
157. 00:15:13 The chapter titles are to sleep, coffee, jet lag, melatonin, losing and gaining control of your
158. 00:15:22 sleep. And then chapter three is defining and generating sleep, time dilation, and what we learned
159. 00:15:30 from a baby in 1952. Eight, chapter four, eight beds, dinosaurs and napping with half a brain.
160. 00:15:36 Who sleeps? How do we sleep and how much? And then chapter five is changes in sleep across the
161. 00:15:41 lifespan. So the titles of the chapters are can be quite long because they'll have colons in them,
162. 00:15:46 and then they'll they'll continue on there. So this whole thing is like basically we're trying to
163. 00:15:50 understand sleep. Like this is the we're going to set the stage. We're going to set the foundation.
164. 00:15:54 We're going to try to understand sleep. So what I liked about this chapter was as somebody who
165. 00:16:02 doesn't know much about sleep other than like, oh, they tell me I should get between, you know,
166. 00:16:07 seven and nine hours of sleep every night. But other than that, I didn't know much about the
167. 00:16:12 mechanics of it. I didn't know much about the research behind it. I didn't know much about
168. 00:16:16 any of that stuff. This was a good, I thought, pretty good chapter one was, or sorry, part one
169. 00:16:21 was a pretty good overview of the different types of sleep and the different details of it.
170. 00:16:25 So that's my high level. I'll turn to Mike now and then we can get more nitty-gritty as we go.
171. 00:16:30 Well, I'm kind of curious, you know, what did you think of chapter one specifically? Because chapter
172. 00:16:35 one was sort of interesting in that it's a condensation, I would argue, of the rest of the book. He talks
173. 00:16:43 about the things that not getting enough sleep leads to. And then at the end of that, he talks
174. 00:16:49 about all the different benefits of sleep. Would you go as far as to say it's like an executive
175. 00:16:55 summary? Or I think that's fair, but it also feels weird being in the first section. I don't know,
176. 00:17:04 it's almost like an introduction. That was that was the take I had on it. It was an introduction
177. 00:17:08 put into part one, which I thought was strange. Like I thought if we'd have pulled that one out,
178. 00:17:13 it would have made a lot of stuff more like, and we just called it the introduction before we got
179. 00:17:17 to part one. It would have made a lot more sense, a lot more sense. Yeah, it's also probably as deep
180. 00:17:23 as many people will want to go on the topic. Dear listener, I think you're going to get a theme
181. 00:17:30 here. If I'm reading Mike correctly, which hopefully I am, I think you're going to get a
182. 00:17:35 theme here that like the level of detail in some of these chapters is just egregious. I mean,
183. 00:17:43 it's like really, really intense, the level of detail and how much he goes into some of these
184. 00:17:48 studies. If you're into it, that's great. It's a really, I mean, you would just eat this book up.
185. 00:17:54 But if you're not into it and you're happy with the intro paragraph and then the conclusion
186. 00:17:58 paragraph, the rest of it just feels like, okay, what are we doing here? We're just turning through.
187. 00:18:04 At least that was my take on it. Yeah, I think there's definitely room between as deep as he went
188. 00:18:14 and the summary that you get in chapter one. But I don't know, like those are the two
189. 00:18:23 logical approaches, I feel, is just give me enough to kind of understand why I should take this
190. 00:18:31 seriously and do something to optimize for it. And then there's Matthew Walker who devoted his
191. 00:18:38 entire life to it. Yeah. If I were to try to condense this first section, like a couple of
192. 00:18:44 the important takeaways from this, I feel the, well, number one, this is a big deal. He talks
193. 00:18:50 about how insufficient sleep has been labeled a public health epidemic by the CDC. So,
194. 00:18:55 I take it seriously. There's the whole concept of the circadian rhythm, which is the 24 hour cycle
195. 00:19:02 for when you feel tired or alert at certain times. And that controls a lot of stuff, your moods,
196. 00:19:08 your emotions, your core body temperature, your metabolic rate, your circadian rhythms will go
197. 00:19:14 up and down regardless of whether you sleep or not. And this is the thing that kind of jumped
198. 00:19:21 out to me from the section on jet lag, because I'm getting ready to go to London is like,
199. 00:19:24 your, when you take someone out of a time zone and transfer them to a new time zone,
200. 00:19:30 it takes a while for your circadian rhythm to catch up. So it's not just, it's bright out,
201. 00:19:34 I'm going to be awake. It's, it's dark out. My body's produced melatonin. Now I'm going to sleep.
202. 00:19:38 It can really only adjust like an hour per day is kind of the guideline that he shared there,
203. 00:19:44 which was interesting. But there's also these visuals that go along with this. So there's like
204. 00:19:48 the process, s s and the process C, which are the two factors regulating sleep and wakefulness.
205. 00:19:54 The process C is a circadian rhythm. And then the process S is like the sleep drive. So if you've
206. 00:20:00 been up for a long time, your sleep drive is higher. And then the circadian rhythm, you know,
207. 00:20:06 that different levels of alertness, essentially, when these things are close together, then you're
208. 00:20:13 awake when they're far apart on this graph, then you are asleep. There's really not much
209. 00:20:18 actionable from this other than recognizing that this is how it works. And then gets into like the
210. 00:20:24 whole idea of the sleep cycles, the sleep cycles are interesting. There's these different levels.
211. 00:20:30 I've been aware of these ever since I started using sleep cycle to track my sleep. Pro-show
212. 00:20:34 pro listeners got to hear all about my crazy evening routine and how I track my sleep and all
213. 00:20:40 that kind of stuff. But essentially you go from being awake to REM sleep, which is basically
214. 00:20:45 where your brain is more active than it is when it's awake, but there's rapid eye movement sleep.
215. 00:20:51 And then below that, there's several stages of non-rapid eye movement sleep or deep sleep.
216. 00:20:57 And I kind of hate how these are all just broken down into non-REM sleep, stage one, two, or three
217. 00:21:04 and four, even group together. Like, what's the difference between these groups? We don't really
218. 00:21:09 know other than like the deep sleep is kind of where all the restorative stuff really happens. And
219. 00:21:14 so this whole cycle from, you know, I'm in REM sleep down to the bottom and then back up,
220. 00:21:19 there's, it's not like you make these jumps. It's kind of like the slope. The whole thing
221. 00:21:25 takes roughly 90 minutes, which is why they say eight hours of sleep, eight hours of sleep
222. 00:21:32 opportunity time. It uses that phrase a lot, doesn't it? Sleep opportunity? Yes.
223. 00:21:37 Yeah, because then your body will go through roughly five of those cycles. And that's really
224. 00:21:42 what you, what you need. But then again, like, you can kind of go too far with this, I feel.
225. 00:21:48 I mean, if you're a new parent and there's nothing you can do about your kid waking you up in the
226. 00:21:52 middle of the night, you can look at your graph from sleep cycle and you can be like,
227. 00:21:56 Oh, I didn't get any sleep cycles. I'm going to die tomorrow. Like, no, that's not. And really,
228. 00:22:03 like there's nothing you can do about that. You just do what you can with what you have and you
229. 00:22:07 let the rest of it go. So, so I, okay, so I'm glad you did what you just did because I was like,
230. 00:22:14 okay, I'm not quite sure how far Mike's going to want to take this. Like how, how deep down these
231. 00:22:18 rabbit holes is he going to want to want to dive down in there? So I've got a, I've got a pretty
232. 00:22:22 decent idea. So now I'm going to, I'm going to ask you a couple questions coming out of here.
233. 00:22:25 What kind of type are you? So from a circadian rhythm standpoint, are you a morning type? Are you,
234. 00:22:31 I forget the names of all of them, but are you the one that like is in the in between or are you
235. 00:22:36 one that goes to bed late and then wakes up late? Yeah. So there's morning larks, 40% of people
236. 00:22:41 are morning larks, 30% of people are night owls and then 30% of people are in between.
237. 00:22:47 I'm not exactly sure. I'm probably in between. I can do the early morning stuff when I started
238. 00:22:53 getting into writing online. That's what I was doing. I was getting up at 5am. So I could write
239. 00:22:58 for an hour every day before I went into the office for the family business. I don't think I've
240. 00:23:07 ever really stayed up super late. I mean, in college, my bedtime was after midnight, but
241. 00:23:15 that's just the culture that you find yourself in. And when I go to bed now, I'm usually in bed by
242. 00:23:20 about 10 30. I want to be asleep by 11. I want to be awake by seven. So that's when my alarm goes off
243. 00:23:26 is seven a.m. And I can force myself to get up earlier if I need to. I've been in different
244. 00:23:34 seasons of my life where I've like shifted my go to bedtime and my wake up time to be earlier.
245. 00:23:42 But this is just kind of where it naturally lands. But that's also just not just for me,
246. 00:23:47 but just our family and family. So you're not doing this in isolation. I think if you were just
247. 00:23:53 going to try to like, I'm going to implement my circadian rhythm and everyone else just
248. 00:23:58 do whatever the heck you want. That's not going to work. You got to get kids in bed,
249. 00:24:02 otherwise they'll stay up all night. My six year old is like, I'm not tired. She's rubbing her
250. 00:24:08 eyes at nine 30. So like her bedtime has got to be before that. So I don't know. You have to
251. 00:24:14 give it a take with this. So okay, I am clearly, clearly, clearly the morning type where like I
252. 00:24:24 go to bed, if I could go to bed on my ideal situation to be eight o'clock, right? Like at eight o'clock,
253. 00:24:28 I'd go, you know, start that sleep opportunity. But then I'd wake up at four a.m. and be completely
254. 00:24:34 fine. Like where I've found myself over the years is I will shift the go to bedtime as needed based
255. 00:24:41 on family and based on like being in college and based on those things. But I'm not as good at
256. 00:24:45 shifting the wake up time. So it might go to six a.m. But it's usually not been later than six a.m.
257. 00:24:53 And then one of the things he talks about later on in the book is about how we try to like,
258. 00:24:58 play catch up on the weekends. So it's like, that was always my philosophy. I was like,
259. 00:25:01 okay, I'll just, you know, I'll burn a four or five hour a night, you know, during the week.
260. 00:25:06 And then I'll just sleep until, you know, nine or 10, you know, in the morning on,
261. 00:25:11 on Saturday and Sunday. And that does never, it does not work. It never worked.
262. 00:25:15 Does not work. But I am clearly, clearly, clearly one of those early to bed, early to rise.
263. 00:25:21 And it's, it's just ingrained in me. Like that's the way I've always been. And I like it that way.
264. 00:25:26 But kids, right? Like, so kids right now dramatically impact this because I can't go to bed as early
265. 00:25:31 as I want to. I just need to push that wake up time a little bit later. Because right now I wake
266. 00:25:36 up, you know, four, four, 30 pretty much every morning. And it's too early. Like, I don't get
267. 00:25:42 enough sleep. So it's, it's way too early. I'm going to start calling you Jacko, by the way,
268. 00:25:46 with your early morning wake up times. I just don't, I just don't take pictures of like chalk
269. 00:25:50 to work out gear. Right? Like, that's not my, that's not really my style. So if you all don't know,
270. 00:25:55 Jacko will like, will take pictures at like four 30 every morning of his workout gear and put it
271. 00:26:01 on Instagram. Okay, so there's different types of sleep. Okay, monophasic sleep, biphasic sleep,
272. 00:26:08 and then polyphasic sleep. So monophasic is basically, we get one solid chunk of sleep.
273. 00:26:14 Like through, and typically it's in the middle of the night. So, you know, between the hours of
274. 00:26:20 nine and, you know, whatever it might be six AM, then there's a biphasic sleep, which you get the
275. 00:26:25 long night sleep, but then you intentionally or also get like a 30 to 90 minute nap in the
276. 00:26:30 afternoon. Then there's polyphasic where basically you just kind of randomly take little short
277. 00:26:35 sleeps throughout the day. I'm curious, what are, what are you like, what do you, if you had your
278. 00:26:41 way, what would you do? That's a good question. I'm primarily the monophasic sleeper. However,
279. 00:26:51 I have gotten into a routine of taking a nap on Sunday afternoons. Just Sunday? I don't.
280. 00:26:57 Yeah, just Sunday. Like we're at church most of the day Sunday, but we'll be there for AM service,
281. 00:27:03 we'll come home, we'll have lunch, and then I'll usually fall asleep on the couch, take a nap.
282. 00:27:09 But I don't know that I could do that every day. Maybe that's because I like coffee and I have too
283. 00:27:18 much caffeine in my system. I don't know. I will say that the days that I do take a nap,
284. 00:27:24 usually I feel better during the day and have a little bit harder time falling asleep at night.
285. 00:27:29 Okay. I would take a nap every day. Like every day around one 30, maybe two o'clock,
286. 00:27:37 and it would go until whenever I woke up, right? Like I would 100% take a nap every day if I could
287. 00:27:43 take a nap every day. I love naps. I feel so much better when I take a nap. I have no idea if it
288. 00:27:50 keeps me up at night or not. I don't really care. Like I would take a nap every day. So I would 100%
289. 00:27:54 sit in this bifasic sleep pattern. I've actually thought about like, how do I change my schedule
290. 00:27:59 to where I do bifasic sleep? And I just haven't figured out actually how to do that. And then I
291. 00:28:04 also feel bad for my wife because she doesn't have that option. So if I took an nap every day,
292. 00:28:08 she'd be like, what are you doing? Like, what are you doing guy? Okay. You mentioned the REM
293. 00:28:14 sleep and the non REM sleep. I actually noticed myself getting annoyed by REM sleep and non REM
294. 00:28:21 sleep as we as we read through the book. And I understand it's important and I understand it's
295. 00:28:25 a fundamental piece of him writing this book. But like, I don't know, I just felt like we hit on
296. 00:28:31 the idea or he hits on the idea of this, this REM sleep especially, right? Like in this REM sleep
297. 00:28:39 dream thing to where it was like, I kind of got this and I was like, okay, I get it already. Like,
298. 00:28:44 REM sleep's important, right? Like, and I think the reason why he hits it so much or he hits it so
299. 00:28:48 hard is because if we're going to sacrifice our sleep, typically we sacrifice on the tail end of
300. 00:28:54 our sleep, which he would say and the science would say, that's where we do a lot of our REM sleeping,
301. 00:29:00 you know, our dream type sleeping. So therefore we lose that. And then in the very later, we'll get to
302. 00:29:05 in part five, we'll get some of the impacts on that in terms of emotional stability and those
303. 00:29:09 things. And it has a dramatic impact on us. But I don't know about you. I just, I got, I was like,
304. 00:29:14 okay, like, stop. Like, just give me a break on the, give me a break on the REM sleep, the REM sleep
305. 00:29:20 thing. Yeah. In fact, the, the graph that he shows in chapter three about the different cycles,
306. 00:29:28 you can kind of see in the first cycle, you go all the way down to the deep sleep for an extended
307. 00:29:33 period of the cycle. And then the amount of time that you spend in that stage three and four level
308. 00:29:38 gets shortened with each subsequent cycle. The last one, you don't really go down into three or
309. 00:29:44 four at all. And that's the one where you spend two thirds of that cycle in the REM sleep. So
310. 00:29:51 you're right that it is the one that gets compromised if you cut your sleep short. But the other thing
311. 00:29:58 and I think the reason that he just keeps talking about it so much is I think it's in this beginning
312. 00:30:05 section, he talks about how this is not something that every living being does. There's a lot of
313. 00:30:14 animals that don't actually have REM sleep. I forget which ones specifically do which ones don't.
314. 00:30:21 But it's a sort of a distinctly human thing. And then there's a whole bunch of benefits that
315. 00:30:28 come from it. Now again, the question is like, okay, what do I actually do with this?
316. 00:30:33 Try to get as much sleep as you can. And then if you don't get as much as you wanted, like,
317. 00:30:39 don't beat yourself up about it. But just try to control your environment the best that you can.
318. 00:30:46 He does have in the very back of the book, the appendix of 12 tips for healthy sleep.
319. 00:30:52 Pause on this. Pause on this. Let's do this at the very end. I want to do this at the very end.
320. 00:30:55 Yeah. That's essentially a summary of what you can actually do with the information that he
321. 00:31:03 shares here. And then the first 340 pages are largely, hey, this is bad for you. Hey,
322. 00:31:09 this can kill you. If you don't do this, then you're going to die. And then by the end,
323. 00:31:13 it's like, I have a dream. I need pain, this utopian picture of life where sleep is important
324. 00:31:19 to everybody. All right. I have one more for you before we move it on to part two.
325. 00:31:23 Briefly, what would your ideal sleep schedule be? Or like sleep pattern, sleep schedule, like,
326. 00:31:30 what would the perfect dream world ideal sleep be?
327. 00:31:34 I think I'm pretty close to it. It's in bed by 1030 and I'm up at seven.
328. 00:31:45 And I think the thing that I wish was different is like just sharing that. I feel
329. 00:31:53 a little bit of shame in that I get up at seven. Like some people will be like, well,
330. 00:31:59 my kids are on the bus at five 30. So aren't you fancy? And I think like that's kind of his point
331. 00:32:07 is like it shouldn't be that way. But the question really is just like, what is the right
332. 00:32:15 thing for you and get as close to that as you can? And I don't think it's really that hard.
333. 00:32:19 So yeah, this is a long way of answering the question, but essentially, like, I think I'm pretty
334. 00:32:26 close to living it and I would encourage everybody to try to figure it out for themselves too,
335. 00:32:30 because it should be a lot more attainable than you may think.
336. 00:32:33 So I hope I can get to your point where I'm comfortable and like happy with my sleep schedule.
337. 00:32:40 My ideal, like I told you would be eight to four. So 8 p.m. to four a.m. I love the morning.
338. 00:32:48 Like before everybody else wakes up, I love that time. So, you know, if I can get two, three hours
339. 00:32:53 in the morning of protected time, man, like it is, it's just glorious to me. But then I want to
340. 00:32:58 take a solid nap, like, you know, 130 to 230, like every afternoon. I want to, I want to caught in
341. 00:33:03 the corner of my office and I want to take a nice nap every afternoon. All right, cool. So let's
342. 00:33:09 go to part two. So part two is why you should sleep. There are, let's see, one, two,
343. 00:33:15 three chapters in part, part two. So the chapters are what your mother and Shakespeare knew, the
344. 00:33:22 benefits of sleeping for the brain. Too extreme for the Guinness Book of World Records, sleep
345. 00:33:27 deprivation in the brain, and then cancer, heart attacks, and a shorter life, sleep deprivation,
346. 00:33:32 and the body. So basically, we take a turn here, right, in my mind. Like, so we set the foundation
347. 00:33:38 in part one, and as Michael alluded to before, we kind of take a turn here where we start to talk
348. 00:33:43 about like, hey, you're going to die, right? And if you don't sleep well, you're going to die faster
349. 00:33:49 and you're going to die worse. And you're going to, and like, we, we, all the effects of poor sleep
350. 00:33:54 and all of the negative aspects of poor sleep. So I'm just going to read off, you know, some of
351. 00:34:01 the negative effects just to kind of give us an overview as we, as we work through this. So basically,
352. 00:34:06 your memory and your learning take a significant hit in terms of if you're asleep deprived. So all
353. 00:34:12 of this is basically if you're asleep deprived. Okay, so mastery takes a hit. Injury prevention,
354. 00:34:18 quicker recovery takes a hit. Creativity takes a hit. You're drowsy driving. So he calls out the
355. 00:34:26 fact that he has this huge section on drowsy driving and basically it's equivalent to drunk
356. 00:34:30 driving. And you know, you're going to die, basically, because you're, you're essentially
357. 00:34:35 falling asleep at the wheel, but you're doing it in a way where you're like sleep paralysis, where
358. 00:34:40 it's different than drunk driving where you just react slower. You actually are going through
359. 00:34:44 sleep paralysis during that. What else? So he's got all these different emotions swing heavily.
360. 00:34:53 So you're more emotionally reactive than he links it to Alzheimer's. And the fact that we've
361. 00:34:58 get these diseases and cancer through sleep deprivation and we've got weakened heart,
362. 00:35:05 we've got high blood pressure, we've got calcification of the arteries, less growth hormone, diabetes,
363. 00:35:10 obesity. So he's got all these things. So all of that is like the overview of chapters six,
364. 00:35:15 seven and eight. I have written here, sleep eight hours a night, I think three times, right? Like,
365. 00:35:22 so it's not that he said it, but it was basically sleep eight hours a night, sleep eight hours a
366. 00:35:26 night, or you need to sleep eight hours a night, right? Like I have that multiple times throughout
367. 00:35:31 this section. And we said this before, but let's just really call it out one more time. All of this
368. 00:35:36 stuff is backed up by scientific research. So he's not like, I never got the impression once
369. 00:35:43 that he's like a fearmonger, or he's trying to do this to like, you know, excite you in a negative
370. 00:35:48 way or to get attention or anything like that. He's literally like looking at the research,
371. 00:35:53 you know, in a lot of different research and saying, we've got a lot of evidence here that lack of
372. 00:35:58 sleep, sleep deprivation, both in quality and quantity is really detrimental to the human body.
373. 00:36:05 And it's really detrimental to the human mind. And we need to think about this and take this
374. 00:36:09 seriously. So in my mind, I took this as the, hey, be shocked and odd about all the stuff that can
375. 00:36:15 actually happen if you are sleep deprived. Yeah, he's not looking at the research. He's doing the
376. 00:36:20 research. He doesn't have in the back of the book a link to the studies that he's done. Maybe they're
377. 00:36:27 just not published and he couldn't link to them that way, or maybe there's just too many to link to,
378. 00:36:34 but almost every chapter, I don't know, there's like a dozen different studies that he's mentioning,
379. 00:36:42 because he's not diving deep into them. He's like, I did this study with this person to test this
380. 00:36:46 hypothesis. And this is what we found. And so even though like in this section, like you said,
381. 00:36:52 he's explicitly saying these are the bad things that come with a lack of sleep, it's prevalent
382. 00:36:56 throughout the entire book where it's like, so if you go back to REM sleep, you know, we were
383. 00:37:04 talking a lot about that, you know, what, what are the effects of not doing this? And then they
384. 00:37:10 would figure out a study and then they would put people through the study. And most of the studies,
385. 00:37:14 he even like has a caveat is like they volunteered for this study. So we don't get in trouble.
386. 00:37:18 That sort of thing. It's a very negative tone. But again, like I don't blame him for that,
387. 00:37:25 I blame the culture for that where it's just not normal to prioritize sleep and rest,
388. 00:37:34 even though as he talks about later in the book, there's significant costs that come along with that.
389. 00:37:39 I do like chapter six from this section before you get into, you know, Guinness Book of World
390. 00:37:46 Records doesn't even track this anymore because it is so harmful to people. Like it's a it's too
391. 00:37:53 greater risk for the individuals to put themselves through this and he makes the point and they all,
392. 00:37:58 but they do track like the longest freeform fall from miles up in the sky, you know, like that's
393. 00:38:05 fine, but staying awake for too long is not. So I don't know. But there's a section,
394. 00:38:12 chapter six about your mother and Shakespeare knew there's a couple things from here that I liked.
395. 00:38:17 One of them was the story about the piano player and probably that I like this because it kind of
396. 00:38:23 gets into how creativity works and skill development, things like that. But there was this piano player
397. 00:38:30 who was trying to learn this passage of music and they kept messing up when they were practicing
398. 00:38:35 in a particular spot. But then they went to bed and they woke up in the morning and they could play it.
399. 00:38:41 And I grew up playing classical violin and like all the fancy, all these four seasons, stuff like that.
400. 00:38:51 I know exactly what that's like. There's these passages that you got to learn to play because
401. 00:38:57 you're playing it with the orchestra and the harder you try once you get to a certain point,
402. 00:39:03 the less progress you make. And you just get frustrated because I can't play this thing.
403. 00:39:07 And then you go to bed and you wake up and you come back the next day when you're fresh like,
404. 00:39:12 "Oh, I can do this." And it feels really weird. But I think not that there's an action I'm
405. 00:39:20 associated with this. But if there was, it would be where's the balance between the effort that I
406. 00:39:26 put in to develop the skill while I'm awake and then just getting enough sleep and letting it's
407. 00:39:31 almost like a two sides to a coin. You have the focused intentional effort that books like
408. 00:39:37 Peak talk about, 10,000 hours to master a skill, stuff like that, the focus practice. But then
409. 00:39:44 another aspect of that is how well are you sleeping at night. And I feel like you have to consider those
410. 00:39:49 together. But they really are important for high performance and that's illustrated by the
411. 00:39:55 other thing I really like from this section was they mentioned the sleep study with Andrea IgoDala.
412. 00:39:59 And this is not the first time I heard about this, but this was really interesting.
413. 00:40:02 I don't know people who are listening to this now know who Andrea IgoDala is or was. He wasn't
414. 00:40:08 an NBA player. I think he's retired now. He was with the Golden State Warriors, Philadelphia 76ers.
415. 00:40:13 He was kind of like a perennial all-star caliber player for most of his career.
416. 00:40:19 And then he went through the sleep study and they found that increased sleep led to
417. 00:40:25 increase of 29% in the points per minute that he was able to score. His 3.0 percentage goes up,
418. 00:40:31 his free throw percentage shows up, decreased sleep leads to a 37% increase in turnovers,
419. 00:40:36 45% increase in follows committed. I mean, it's probably common knowledge at this point with the
420. 00:40:44 superstar athletes, but you really need to make sure that you're getting enough rest if you want
421. 00:40:50 to be able to perform at that level consistently. I mean, I like how you put it in terms of
422. 00:40:58 it's not like the tone he writes in is not negative. It's more I'm driving home this main point,
423. 00:41:06 like I'm really driving home this point. I like the phrase that he makes to the piano player.
424. 00:41:12 Practice with sleep makes perfect. Because you always hear the practice makes perfect.
425. 00:41:17 It's like practice with sleep, like with good sleep makes perfect. And I really like that.
426. 00:41:23 My action item, not really that it's going to be one of mine at the end, but like
427. 00:41:26 one of the actions coming in coming out of this for me is let's say I want to learn to code or I
428. 00:41:32 want to learn to play an instrument or a language or something like that. I think there's a lot of
429. 00:41:38 value in doing that and then doing it before sleeping getting good sleep. And I think you'll see
430. 00:41:46 advances in that and I would love to. I always want to do like a self study where
431. 00:41:50 I'm trying to learn something and I intentionally like do it before I go to bed and then I try to
432. 00:41:56 you know, get a good night's sleep and then see if I'm better at it in the morning than I was
433. 00:41:59 before I went to bed. The last thing really that I want to hit on in this. I mean, if you
434. 00:42:06 so like I guess if you're going to read this book and you want to be very strongly encouraged
435. 00:42:14 from a physical health standpoint, read chapter eight. Chapter eight is called cancer heart
436. 00:42:19 attacks in a shorter life, sleep deprivation in the body because he goes through all of these
437. 00:42:23 different things and talks about how lack of sleep impacts or good sleep impacts, right? Like
438. 00:42:30 in he talks about certain ones in certain ways, but how lack of sleep impacts, you know, these
439. 00:42:34 different things. I want to call out though that in chapter seven, he gives maybe the best case
440. 00:42:40 for non-rem sleep, right? So and that is the fact that non-rem sleep fights cancer and dementia,
441. 00:42:49 that it helps clear out, you know, the beta amyloids or whatever it is out of the brain for
442. 00:42:54 from dementia and Alzheimer's and that it actually lets your body like produce and filter these
443. 00:43:01 natural killer cells through your bloodstream and into your system that way it kills cancer cells.
444. 00:43:07 So it's like there, I think that is the strongest play he gives for non-rem sleep.
445. 00:43:13 And then most of the rest of the book is about REM sleep. So anything else on part two before
446. 00:43:17 we move to part three, might. Well, one thing that kind of stood out to me, he mentioned this in
447. 00:43:22 chapter one as well, but the less you sleep, the more you are likely to eat because it messes with
448. 00:43:28 your regulatory chemicals. And this was one of the the aha moments for me, I think was that
449. 00:43:35 there's this hormone leptin, which tells you that you're full. And then another hormone,
450. 00:43:40 ghrelin is the hormone that triggers a strong sense of hunger. And so when you
451. 00:43:46 don't get enough sleep, you basically have this sense that you're hungry, like that one gets
452. 00:43:52 amplified. And then the one that tells you that you're full gets diminished. So I don't know,
453. 00:43:59 I've definitely hearing that understanding kind of maybe realize, you know, the
454. 00:44:05 I definitely fall into that sometimes. It's like, I do feel tired today. And I didn't go for a
455. 00:44:15 long run or anything, but I still just can't stop eating. What's wrong with me?
456. 00:44:20 I agree. All right. So let's move into part three. So part three is how and why we dream. Now,
457. 00:44:28 I'm going to give away the farm on this one. Like I was not I did not like most of this section,
458. 00:44:37 right? Most of part three was like, okay, fine, like this is okay, this is good. But like, so,
459. 00:44:44 okay, so it's three chapters. It's chapter nine, chapter 10, chapter 11. Routinely psychotic.
460. 00:44:49 This is chapter nine. Routinely psychotic, REM sleep dreaming. Chapter 10 is dreaming as overnight
461. 00:44:55 therapy. And then chapter 11 is dream creativity and dream control. The one I liked the most was
462. 00:45:01 dream creativity and dream control. That was the chapter I liked the most out of this. But overall,
463. 00:45:06 like was just not into this section. I just didn't get it. So you're shaking your head, no.
464. 00:45:12 You agree? I mean, I assume you agree. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Like there's only so much
465. 00:45:19 to be said about this, I feel. So he makes a strong argument at the beginning, I feel like he talks
466. 00:45:26 about how when we dream, we're acting like someone who is psychotic, we're hallucinating, we're delusional,
467. 00:45:32 we're disoriented, we're effectively labile and and we deal deal with amnesia when we wake up. So,
468. 00:45:39 okay, you have my attention, but then like once you understand how this works, that's kind of
469. 00:45:46 interesting, I guess, there's really not a whole lot you can do to control this. Like what do I do
470. 00:45:53 with this information? I think the one thing that I liked about this and the kind of takeaway
471. 00:46:00 was I've heard from a long time people advocating reading fiction at night because it helps them
472. 00:46:10 fall asleep. But in the dream creativity and dream control section, they talk about people who
473. 00:46:15 kind of got aha moments after they fell asleep and they were basically dealing with problems that
474. 00:46:20 they couldn't solve before bed. So that kind of goes against that advice, I feel. A lot of the
475. 00:46:27 nonfiction books that I read, I like reading them because they are speaking to a problem that I'm
476. 00:46:32 trying to solve or I'm trying to wrap my head around how something actually works. A lot like
477. 00:46:38 Dimitri Mendeleev, which was the the story in here that I liked the best about the Russian chemist who
478. 00:46:43 invented the periodic table of elements. Now he had not slept for three days prior to this, so don't
479. 00:46:48 do that. But he was struggling with how these elements could fit together somehow, but he couldn't
480. 00:46:53 figure out how to do it. So then he finally falls asleep, he has this dream. And what was astounding
481. 00:46:58 to me from that was that he got this whole big picture of how this stuff all fit together and
482. 00:47:05 there was only one correction that he had to make afterwards. That's pretty astounding. But then
483. 00:47:12 also this is kind of linked to how I traditionally felt about creativity. I've shared this other
484. 00:47:20 places, even in the reading masterclass talked about how at one point I said, I guess I'm just not
485. 00:47:25 creative because other people seem to get these flashes of inspiration, like the entire periodic
486. 00:47:30 table of elements that shows up in a dream and they know how this fits together. But I don't
487. 00:47:37 experience it that way. I try some things, I learned some things. My big revelation was that
488. 00:47:41 when you create something new, you're connecting dots that haven't been connected before, so collect
489. 00:47:45 better dots. And this is an application of that, I would argue, what he doesn't get into detail here
490. 00:47:51 is how much information he was collecting and just thinking about in terms of all these different
491. 00:47:58 elements. So I think it's kind of cool to see how you can using sleep and dreaming that can help
492. 00:48:07 click those things into place. But you really can't count on that other than to make it part of your
493. 00:48:13 regular routine. So again, control it, you can control and then the score will take care of itself.
494. 00:48:18 Well, and I would think that he would say by setting yourself up, right? So doing all the front
495. 00:48:25 end work when you're awake and then giving yourself a good sleep opportunity, you give yourself the
496. 00:48:31 ability to go into these dream states, not that you can control it or not that you can have any
497. 00:48:35 kind of regulation of it. But at the same time, if you give yourself that opportunity, there's a
498. 00:48:40 chance these things or a higher chance that these things will come out of it. And I think that's a,
499. 00:48:45 he never says that, but I think that would be a legitimate claim to say, set yourself up well
500. 00:48:49 and then give yourself the time to actually get into dream state, which going back to the point
501. 00:48:54 we made before, if there's going to be a thing that we cut out, it's we cut out this REM dreaming,
502. 00:48:59 this REM dream state. So therefore, he's trying to make a push for that. I liked the fact and I
503. 00:49:06 thought it was really intellectually honest of him. I mean, the very beginning of chapter nine,
504. 00:49:11 he basically says, hey, we can't interpret dreams. Nobody can interpret dreams, right? Like,
505. 00:49:16 trying to interpret dreams, that's silly, right? Like, and he kind of calls it out. And he said,
506. 00:49:22 you know, he's like, you can try, like, think about it, see what it does for you. He's like,
507. 00:49:26 but really, you're not going to, you know, you're not making any major insights there.
508. 00:49:31 I like the idea of these dreams decoding, waking experiences. And he links it to
509. 00:49:39 that the REM sleep or the dream sleep will basically allow us to emotionally tune.
510. 00:49:46 And the way he describes emotionally tuned, I thought was awesome. So he says, the level-headed
511. 00:49:51 ability to read the social world around people, like, so the level-headed ability to read the
512. 00:49:56 social world around you. And what I can tell you is that if I've had a good night's sleep,
513. 00:50:00 I can't link it to dreaming, but if I've had a good night's sleep, I'm just more level,
514. 00:50:04 right? Like a more level all around, like, so crazy things happen at work or with my family or
515. 00:50:09 whatever it is, it just doesn't hit me as dramatically or as emotionally swingy when that happens.
516. 00:50:18 So there's some, at least anecdotal evidence there from my, you know, my own life. I really like the
517. 00:50:26 examples of the creativity that came out of, you know, dreams. He references, you talked about the
518. 00:50:31 periodic table, but then he talks about the Beatles, McCartney writing songs and then Keith Richards
519. 00:50:38 for those stones, kind of with songs. I want to ask you this, do you dream frequently?
520. 00:50:47 I don't think that I do. Okay. Because I don't either, right? Like, I mean, I very rarely,
521. 00:50:53 and they say we dream all the time, we just don't remember them, but it's like, I very rarely,
522. 00:50:58 very rarely remember a dream, like, where I wake up and I'm like, oh, yeah, that was a dream.
523. 00:51:02 Yeah, almost never. And usually when I do, like, when I come out of a dream, it's like a weird
524. 00:51:10 dream. Like, I wake up and I'm like, man, that was strange. Like, it's never one of these like,
525. 00:51:14 oh, I got the song lyrics for, you know, the chorus to this awesome song in my head. It's more a matter
526. 00:51:19 of like, yeah, man, the weirdest thing happened. And like, for some reason, the house was upside
527. 00:51:24 down, but we weren't and like, you know, it's like something, something changed by a piece of pizza.
528. 00:51:29 Exactly. Do you, do you know people or has anybody in your circle, I'll just say immediate circle
529. 00:51:38 or broader circle sleepwalkers? No, not that I know. My one son is a sleepwalker. So like, he'll
530. 00:51:49 randomly come out. It doesn't happen like all the time, but he'll randomly come out. And you're
531. 00:51:53 like, Hey, are you okay? And he just like kind of stares at you. And then you like have to encourage
532. 00:51:59 him to go back to bed. And then you ask him the next morning and you're like, Hey, did you know
533. 00:52:02 you came out and talked to us? And he's like, Nope, had no idea. And I was like, okay, that's great.
534. 00:52:08 Well, I guess something like that happens every once in a while with our kids. But I think that
535. 00:52:14 happens more frequently in kids he talks about. Yeah. And this book, I don't remember if it's
536. 00:52:17 this section or in the next section. But we had one just the other night, actually. So I mentioned
537. 00:52:24 last Saturday, we had two kids in this play production. There were multiple performances on
538. 00:52:29 Saturday. My one son who is 12, first time he's been in a production like this, he had a minor
539. 00:52:37 part with a few lines that he had to recite. And then a couple of songs that they were,
540. 00:52:42 they were choreographed that they were doing on stage. And he walks out. We had been, I mean,
541. 00:52:48 I mentioned at the very beginning, we've been watching basketball, I'm a big basketball fan.
542. 00:52:53 So every night, you know, playoffs around, we're watching, watching basketball. And I don't know
543. 00:52:59 if that's the night that the Lakers were playing or not, but he walks out of his room at like 10,
544. 00:53:04 30. And he's like, what were the two songs that I have to do with LeBron James?
545. 00:53:10 What are you talking about? And then he's kind of out of it. He goes back to bed in the morning,
546. 00:53:17 we asked him, I hate, did you know that you asked us about these songs you were going to sing with
547. 00:53:21 LeBron James? He's like, what? No, that's ridiculous. Like, no, it's true. That's awesome.
548. 00:53:26 That's awesome. All right, let's move to, we'll move to part four. So part four is from sleeping
549. 00:53:33 pills to society transformed. And as Mike alluded to before, we are going to cover kind of a broad
550. 00:53:40 range of things. And it's going to then not hit as nearly as well as he wanted to. And I, I will
551. 00:53:47 agree with him on that on the transformation of society thing. But there are, let me count real
552. 00:53:53 quick, one, two, three, four, five chapters here, and then like a mini conclusion. So you have things
553. 00:53:58 that go bump in the night, sleep disorders and death caused by no sleep. That's chapter 12,
554. 00:54:02 chapter 13, iPads, factory whistles and night caps, what's stopping you from sleeping,
555. 00:54:06 chapter 14, hurting and helping your sleep pills versus therapy, chapter 15, sleep in society,
556. 00:54:11 what medicine and education are doing wrong, and then what Google and NASA are doing right,
557. 00:54:16 chapter 16, a new vision for sleep in the 21st century. And then the conclusion was also
558. 00:54:21 considered to be part of, I would consider to be part of chapter four, because it's one, it's one
559. 00:54:25 page. So I'll start off chapter 12. I hope you don't get mad at me, Mike. I didn't read chapter 12.
560. 00:54:36 I skimmed it, I looked at it, I went through the headings and I went, nope, just like,
561. 00:54:41 because I read the intro paragraph and I was like, okay, sleep, sleep, disorder, sleep, disorder.
562. 00:54:45 And I was like, and now he's going to go do what he's done on the last 11 chapters. And he's going
563. 00:54:50 to go to an insane amount of detail about this sleep disorder. And I'm like, I just don't have it.
564. 00:54:56 Like I'm not going to read about all these sleep disorders. But what I want to comment on is,
565. 00:55:02 have you ever heard anybody tell a story about sleep paralysis? Or have you ever heard of it before?
566. 00:55:08 No, I don't think so.
567. 00:55:11 Okay. And I can't remember if he talks about it in this chapter or not, but it's like,
568. 00:55:13 he talks about it in the very beginning of the book about this concept of sleep paralysis.
569. 00:55:17 Basically, you are awake mentally, but you can't do anything physically. So you can't move,
570. 00:55:26 you can't do anything. And it sounds absolutely frightening. Like absolutely frightening.
571. 00:55:32 Like you have this thing, you say, I want to move my hand and your hand just doesn't move.
572. 00:55:37 Or I want to get out of bed right now, or I want to yell at you and I can't do any of that stuff.
573. 00:55:41 And maybe that's why I didn't want to read sleep disorder chapter because it makes me nervous and
574. 00:55:45 uncomfortable. So I freely admit that I liked the chapter 13 because I thought this one was
575. 00:55:53 more actionable. And you know, so that helped me out a little bit in terms of he talks about
576. 00:55:57 electric and LED light. He talks about regularized temperature, caffeine, alcohol, and then
577. 00:56:03 essentially working and setting alarms and punching the time clock. And I thought that one was a good
578. 00:56:09 actionable one and a needed actionable one as we got towards the end.
579. 00:56:14 Then he goes into it seems as though, and again, it's not that it's not evidence based,
580. 00:56:20 but he seems like he has a pretty big vendetta against sleeping pills, right? Like he is not a
581. 00:56:26 big fan of sleeping pills and using kind of that form to help yourself get to sleep.
582. 00:56:32 Then we get into, I really like the chapter 15 where he ties it into the workplace and lost
583. 00:56:39 productivity and then education. Not surprising. I work in that space. So therefore that was a
584. 00:56:46 more interesting one to me. And then I was very underwhelmed by the 21st century chapter, right?
585. 00:56:52 The chapter 16 where he tries to talk about how we can transform society. I wanted more. I wanted
586. 00:56:58 much more there. And I don't know if he was trying to temper, trying to not be to shoot for the moon
587. 00:57:05 kind of thing, but I wanted a lot more in there. So that's my overview on part four.
588. 00:57:10 Yeah, so let's go back to the beginning here with chapter 12. I agree. I didn't really care
589. 00:57:18 for this section, but there were a couple insights that stood out to me from this. Number one,
590. 00:57:23 he's talking about insomnia and how a lot of people think that they deal with insomnia and
591. 00:57:28 they really don't. Insomnia is having inadequate ability to get good sleep while giving yourself
592. 00:57:34 adequate opportunity to get sleep. So this is where he talks about time, slept, not being the
593. 00:57:38 sleep opportunity time. And the sleep opportunity time is the thing that you can really control.
594. 00:57:44 The rest of it, I think, is a lot of environmental. So put yourself in the best position that you can,
595. 00:57:51 but don't really worry about that a whole lot, I think. And then in the chapter 13 about the
596. 00:57:58 iPads, iPads specifically, you mentioned that you read on your iPad. That's why I was shaking my
597. 00:58:04 head at you at the beginning, you know, using an iPad for two hours before bed reduces melatonin
598. 00:58:08 by 23%. Melatonin being the thing that helps you to fall asleep. So I don't know, there's probably
599. 00:58:15 things that you could do about that. But essentially, what he's saying here is that, yeah, blue light
600. 00:58:19 is is real. And it kind of bugs me when I hear people talk about that. And they're like,
601. 00:58:26 I don't think this is a real thing, because I don't struggle with it. And really, in my
602. 00:58:30 back of my mind, I'm thinking, well, you just are so exhausted that you fall asleep, you're not
603. 00:58:34 getting the quality sleep that you really need, because you're not measuring all this other stuff.
604. 00:58:38 But you're so exhausted by the end of the day that you can just pass out after looking at a phone
605. 00:58:45 for a couple of hours. And that's actually a bad signal, not a good signal.
606. 00:58:48 Okay, I want to pause you here, because I really want to really want your input on this.
607. 00:58:51 Okay. And reason why I really want your input is because I've actually thought about this,
608. 00:58:55 and I don't have a good solution. So I'm hoping you have a good solution for me.
609. 00:58:58 I agree with you. I think I would benefit from reading paper books. But the way I take notes on
610. 00:59:05 the books and the way I want to capture those things, I don't have a good mechanism. And I'm
611. 00:59:10 not the kind of guy who's going to go back through all of my notes that I wrote down in that paper
612. 00:59:16 book and then organize those into some system. So Mike, solve my problem for me. Like, what do I
613. 00:59:22 do here? Because I've got a really good system right now where I've got a mind map and I've got a
614. 00:59:27 book up on the iPad. It's like real clean. Like it's very, very well structured for me.
615. 00:59:33 How do you do it? Like, because I mean, because you put notes in, I've heard you talk about this
616. 00:59:38 before and you've talked to me about this before. You put the mind, you do the mind map on your phone,
617. 00:59:42 don't you? I do. Yeah. So I'm grabbing my phone to jot down a note, but then I'm immediately putting
618. 00:59:48 it back down. I'm not even locking it a lot of times afterwards. So the time that it's in my hand
619. 00:59:55 is not all it's not that much. And I'm not ever doing anything besides just taking the notes.
620. 01:00:00 And I take notes every couple of pages usually. If there's a lot of stuff,
621. 01:00:07 then it's more frequent and I will go through a portion of the book a little bit slower because I
622. 01:00:12 want to extract more from it. But for the most part, I'm only capturing the things that really
623. 01:00:17 resonate with me. I think there are ways around that if you really want to. So you could just be
624. 01:00:22 like I'm, it's okay to grab my phone every once in a while and capture some notes.
625. 01:00:27 You don't have to use my node for that. You could also like, I know Readwise has a thing where you
626. 01:00:33 can take a picture of the section in a book and highlight it and then you can pipe it off wherever
627. 01:00:38 you want automatically. That's an option too. In the reading master class, I talked about how
628. 01:00:45 Sean Blanc has this method. He picked up along the way. I forget the original person who did this,
629. 01:00:50 but it's like a personal book index. So you make a highlight in the book and then in the back of
630. 01:00:55 the book, you tag it essentially. So you have these different sections and then you put the page
631. 01:01:00 number of the highlight. And then when you're done with the book, you could go just grab those
632. 01:01:05 highlights, bring them over into a different app if you want to have a digital version.
633. 01:01:10 Again, feels like more work. If you really wanted to avoid the blue light and you wanted the digital
634. 01:01:16 workflow that you're describing, I would get an eink Android tablet. I actually have one of these.
635. 01:01:23 It's a onyx books tab ultra and it can run obsidian. It can do all sorts of crazy stuff in addition to
636. 01:01:31 taking handwritten notes, which is kind of the reason that I got it. I had a remarkable previously.
637. 01:01:36 And then I got this Android tablet. The problem with that is that you're not going to have
638. 01:01:43 my node, which is a deal breaker for me. There are other apps. Like Xmind is a pretty good
639. 01:01:51 mind mapping tool and that's available on the Google Play Store. So I mean, if I were starting
640. 01:01:58 from scratch today, I might actually do that. But I have 190 mind node files. Like there's a lot of
641. 01:02:07 sunk costs there and my workflow is working. So why try to change it?
642. 01:02:12 Yeah. Well, and will my node sorry not to get on nerd corner, but will my node import an
643. 01:02:18 OPML? Like if I would do an outline, will it import it and then make it into the mind info?
644. 01:02:24 Yeah. So you can see I have my node open right now because I'm looking at the my notes for
645. 01:02:31 why we sleep as we work through this. Let's see. Is there an implied feature?
646. 01:02:36 I don't see import maybe open and it'll just accept.
647. 01:02:39 That would be my guess is that you could open OPML inside of my node and then
648. 01:02:45 with my node and then it would just create the thing from it. I know you can export as OPML
649. 01:02:52 from my node. That's one of the four different formats that I have for all my notes inside of
650. 01:02:57 the community. I'll probably send you a text message later to remind me of the name of the
651. 01:03:01 tablet that you have. So this may be a fun little trip down that lane.
652. 01:03:08 Okay. So let's let's get back to chapter or sorry part four where we're talking about
653. 01:03:14 kind of, you know, how we transition and do different things. It's a little more actionable.
654. 01:03:22 I like. Oh, right. Yeah. Actually, just to pick up there before we got derailed,
655. 01:03:26 I wanted to mention from chapter 14, the hurting and helping you sleep.
656. 01:03:30 Essentially the big takeaway from this is this cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia being
657. 01:03:36 the best option. And those things that he jotted down under that section are essentially the 12
658. 01:03:43 things that are in the appendix. But this is all like environmental design and things that we talked
659. 01:03:50 about in the Pro Show with the evening routines, like do what you can with this stuff. And then
660. 01:03:55 you can't just like force yourself to go to sleep. The harder you try to fall asleep, sometimes the
661. 01:04:00 less you're able to fall asleep. And eventually your body just gets the point was like, okay,
662. 01:04:05 I'm going to do this now. Yeah, exactly. But you can't really do anything in order to get it to
663. 01:04:10 that point other than the chemical, the chemical stuff, what you talked about the sleeping pills,
664. 01:04:14 which don't actually get you to the deep sleep stuff. He talks about how those sleeping pills
665. 01:04:19 and alcohol are both sedatives. So to help you like fall asleep, but you're really just sedated,
666. 01:04:23 you're not getting the restorative benefits of the full sleep cycle.
667. 01:04:28 I was really glad he made this point. Like this is one of the key takeaways. It's like these,
668. 01:04:34 as with most things that they get, not get rich quick, but you know what I mean? Like the easy
669. 01:04:40 button, right? Like as most things are easy button, you're not actually sleeping, you're sedated.
670. 01:04:44 And it's like, oh, that's such a clear vision in my head. It's like, you think you're sleeping,
671. 01:04:49 but you're not really like you're just numb to the rest of the world. This may be think of my one
672. 01:04:55 boy. He'll always come out and he'll be like, dad, I can't sleep. And I'm like, son, well,
673. 01:05:00 you haven't tried like you've only been in your room for like 30 seconds. And he's like, yeah,
674. 01:05:04 I know, but I want to sleep now. And I'm like, well, you got to set the conditions, right? You
675. 01:05:08 know, you got to lay there and you got to, you know, and he just he doesn't doesn't have it. But
676. 01:05:14 it's I just think that's I think that's pretty funny. One of the one of the parts of this from
677. 01:05:18 chapter 13 that I that I hadn't realized and he formalized it more was the idea of temperature.
678. 01:05:24 And the the reason why this kind of rang so true with me is because I've noticed this, but I've
679. 01:05:32 never tied it back to temperature. So you go in a long run too late at night. Well, then you have
680. 01:05:36 a hard time falling asleep and he would say that's because your temperature is too high, your core
681. 01:05:40 temperature is too high and you need more time to like lower your core temperature. Or if this is
682. 01:05:45 the problem I have with weighted blankets. So in the pro show, you talked about having having
683. 01:05:49 the weighted blanket. I love the weighted blanket, but I'm too hot. It typically won't make me too hot
684. 01:05:54 if it's not winter, if it's not the winter months. And even then sometimes I get I get too hot. So
685. 01:06:00 you know, he recommends taking like a hot bath or hot shower or heat on your hands and feet to kind
686. 01:06:07 of disperse, disperse the heat variety getting in into bed. I like that a lot. I he goes on this
687. 01:06:15 pretty good, you know, anti campaign against alarm clocks and how it spikes your blood pressure.
688. 01:06:22 And then when you hit snooze, it spikes it and spikes it and spikes it and spikes it. It's just
689. 01:06:24 really bad for your heart. So that was convicting, which I kind of liked that idea.
690. 01:06:31 I just don't know if I can get on board with the whole caffeine thing. I mean, he, I'm sure there's
691. 01:06:37 a lot of good scientific evidence, but this is one of those situations where I'm not sure how
692. 01:06:41 much scientific evidence you need to present to me. Like, it's going to be really hard for me to
693. 01:06:46 not not do the caffeine thing. I we we both homeschool, right? So therefore it's it's different for us.
694. 01:06:56 But this is something that when I taught K-12 and then even seeing it now with college students,
695. 01:07:00 the shift towards a later schedule, like starting later in the morning and enrolling through. So
696. 01:07:08 we have two major problems is if I teach an 8am class, students are super tired when they come
697. 01:07:13 into that class. I mean, they're really unless you have that one student who will get up at 4 or 5 in
698. 01:07:17 the morning and then like work out and then come to class, they're super tired. But the other thing
699. 01:07:22 is we see this and I forget what he what he called it. It's the parasomething dip in the afternoon.
700. 01:07:27 It's got a it's got a technical term, but it's this dip around one between 1 and 4 pm.
701. 01:07:32 And we see that a lot too. So it's like if I teach a class between 1 and 4 pm, there'll be
702. 01:07:37 certain students who are just like completely completely dipped. And he talks about how if we
703. 01:07:41 would shift this time window to be a more favorable time frame for the circadian rhythm.
704. 01:07:48 He talks about it mainly in high school, but I think it's true. I would say it's true in college
705. 01:07:52 students too. Man, like I would love to run a full scale demo where we don't teach a class before 10am,
706. 01:07:59 you know, or or 9am. And we just see how it goes. And the reason why we don't do that is because
707. 01:08:06 the faculty who are older people want to not teach until six at night or seven at night,
708. 01:08:11 you know, we want to be done earlier than that. But I really think we would see a lot more
709. 01:08:16 benefit from an educational standpoint if we would shift that schedule back even further. Colorado's
710. 01:08:22 done it. Like there are quite a few schools where especially the high school kids, I mean,
711. 01:08:26 they don't start until 830 or or nine o'clock, which he talks about in in the book. But it's a
712. 01:08:31 really interesting concept to me. And I would love to do like a full scale experiment where it's
713. 01:08:35 it's a later, later morning thing. Yeah, that was a, aha moment for me too, was that the circadian
714. 01:08:44 rhythms of kids and teenagers specifically is different and made me appreciative of the fact
715. 01:08:50 that we at homeschool, we can adjust those start times because he basically talks about how when
716. 01:08:54 you have teenagers, I've known for a long time about like the target amount of hours for kids at
717. 01:09:01 different stages. And teenagers do need more sleep than adults. But also their circadian rhythm is
718. 01:09:09 a bit delayed, which is why they tend to want to stay up later. So they're staying up later. And
719. 01:09:16 it's not just the fact that they want to be rebellious or, you know, they're too attached to
720. 01:09:22 doing whatever they're doing. Like they're just not tired yet. But the parents are like, well,
721. 01:09:27 I'm exhausted. So you better go to bed. And then, you know, they're sleeping in because they're
722. 01:09:32 laying in bed, not able to fall asleep probably. And their circadian rhythm is telling them, oh,
723. 01:09:36 you're going to get up at 9 a.m. instead of seven. So mom and dad are getting frustrated. Like,
724. 01:09:40 I remember his story, my brother not telling me about how on a Saturday his, his dad would make
725. 01:09:45 sure that he was like vacuuming outside the the hall outside his bedroom at like 7 a.m. in order to
726. 01:09:52 get him up. And I realized like, yeah, that's, that's not the right way to do it. Now, obviously,
727. 01:09:57 you don't want, I don't know, I guess maybe you can make the argument if they're teenage night owls,
728. 01:10:02 then maybe they they should be allowed to sleep until noon. I don't know. But I feel like,
729. 01:10:08 not that we were ever super strict about, you know, you're going to get up at this time.
730. 01:10:13 Anyways, but I feel like it's a little bit more lax. But also, again, like the thing we're
731. 01:10:18 trying to communicate to our kids by homeschooling is essentially you don't need to punch the clock.
732. 01:10:23 You don't need to have the seat time. I mean, if you're, if you're trying to get a specific
733. 01:10:28 degree, you want to be a doctor or a teacher, you need the letters after your name, you need the
734. 01:10:33 certificate on the wall. That's a different thing. But in terms of doing quality work,
735. 01:10:39 how much you work doesn't really matter. So let's learn how to self regulate. Let's learn how to
736. 01:10:45 manage ourselves, manage our time, manage our energy, manage our emotions in a way that allows us to
737. 01:10:52 do as much good as possible. And I feel like this is very much in line with that.
738. 01:10:56 Yeah. The another one that stood out to me in this section was asking your doctor
739. 01:11:04 before surgery, how many hours of sleep they had the night before. And if they're like,
740. 01:11:09 ah, four and you're like, nope, I'm good today. I'm not going to, I'm not going to have the
741. 01:11:12 surgery today. I was like, this is just not realistic. Like it would be amazing if you could
742. 01:11:16 actually do that. But then they're going to be like, okay, well, we'll reschedule your surgery for,
743. 01:11:20 you know, six months from now. And it's like, well, can't really, can't really do that.
744. 01:11:24 So I thought that one, that one was a fun one. I laughed a little bit at that.
745. 01:11:29 Then there's a whole section here about sleep in the workplace and how there are negative consequences
746. 01:11:34 with if we are under sleep from a work standpoint, from, you know, being less charismatic, from being
747. 01:11:42 less efficient, less productive, and then actually making poor ethical decisions. So
748. 01:11:48 all this was good. We get to chapter 16 and basically he offers like, what could we do things?
749. 01:11:53 So could we get special lighting? Could we get automatic temperature controls? How can we track
750. 01:11:59 data? And he, he calls out a couple companies where they incentivized based on the amount of
751. 01:12:06 sleep. And I thought that was a really interesting, you know, if you slept this much, then you accrued
752. 01:12:12 more days off. Or if you slept this much per night, then they gave you, you know, a bonus or whatever
753. 01:12:19 that would be. That was a really interesting take on this. I mean, I would just be happy with,
754. 01:12:24 you know, a standard old, you know, just like kindergarten, where it's like, hey, around one
755. 01:12:28 o'clock to a clock, if everybody just wants to take a nap, like we're gonna understand, nobody's
756. 01:12:31 gonna, nobody's gonna randomly randomly knock on your door. But you know, that's the, that's the
757. 01:12:36 incentive I would, I would want. Yeah, so that actually the incentives, I think that comes from
758. 01:12:41 chapter 16, which I want to talk about this a little bit, because this is basically his Martin
759. 01:12:45 Luther King style. I have a dream speech about the different levels. So individuals, educational,
760. 01:12:50 interpersonal, organizational, public policy and government and then societal at large.
761. 01:12:54 And he's painting this picture of how our environments adapt around us to accommodate our
762. 01:13:02 circadian rhythms. And he's talking about these apps that are going to trigger these automations.
763. 01:13:09 And we're going to have these devices that we wear that are going to track all this stuff.
764. 01:13:14 And he's describing this. And the tone is kind of like, this is so wild and crazy and out there
765. 01:13:20 someday, but wouldn't this be incredible? And I'm hearing him describe that. And I'm thinking,
766. 01:13:25 like, well, I already do a version of that, I already do a version of that, I do a version of that.
767. 01:13:29 Do you think it's just changed that much since 2017? Because that's when that's the publication
768. 01:13:35 date. So I mean, it hasn't been that was going to be my question was how long ago was this published
769. 01:13:39 and probably at 2017, that it's more, it has the effect that he's that he is intending with this
770. 01:13:48 chapter. But I just want to call out here, like, do what you can with what you have. You don't need
771. 01:13:53 the $300,000 light bulbs that he's describing that eliminate all the blue light, you can get
772. 01:13:59 hue lights and they do the same thing. And yes, they are expensive, but they do the same thing.
773. 01:14:06 And if you read the rest of his book, it's worth every penny because, you know, like,
774. 01:14:10 poor sleep is going to kill me. It's going to, you know, in terms of.
775. 01:14:13 So this is something we don't do currently, but I've done this in the past. In our bedroom,
776. 01:14:20 we have lamps on either side of the bed and we have hue lights there specifically because we
777. 01:14:25 don't want blasting light late at night as we're getting ready for bed. We'll turn off the big
778. 01:14:31 light in the bedroom. We'll turn on the hue lights to 30% or whatever. So we can see what we're
779. 01:14:37 doing still, but it's not, it's again, getting you ready to go to bed as we talked about in the
780. 01:14:43 Pro Show. But then with sleep cycles specifically, you can actually and probably just baked into the
781. 01:14:49 hue app. Now you can use those hue lights to kind of simulate a wake up. Like I had a
782. 01:14:57 Phillips hue light back in the day that was like a gradually got brighter and brighter to simulate
783. 01:15:02 a sunrise and ease you up out of the deep sleep. So you were awake by a certain time. Well, you can
784. 01:15:08 basically do that now on a schedule with these hue bulbs and, you know, a normal light bulb
785. 01:15:14 costs a couple bucks. Maybe a hue light is you can get different packs of them, but if you don't get
786. 01:15:20 the colored ones, maybe they're 30 or $40. So they're significantly more expensive, but they're
787. 01:15:26 a far cry from the crazy bulbs that he's describing. Maybe those are better and they lack some
788. 01:15:32 killer feature. I don't know. But again, there's an 80/20 to this stuff. And in terms of the devices,
789. 01:15:37 the Apple Watch is fine, but the Aura Ring is another one I've seen out there, which is kind of
790. 01:15:42 cool, which can do sleep tracking and a whole bunch of other stuff. And this stuff is not like
791. 01:15:47 just released within the last six months. This stuff has been around for years, maybe not in 2017.
792. 01:15:53 But I bet I've been using sleep cycle almost that long. Like it's been a really long time. So
793. 01:16:00 that's kind of the general tone though, I think, when you talk about some of this
794. 01:16:06 health-adjacent health, healthcare industry adjacent stuff is like, well, there are these
795. 01:16:12 medical devices. I remember this with the family business, like that we worked with
796. 01:16:17 students who were lower functioning and they had these augmentive communication devices,
797. 01:16:23 the boards with the buttons that you could press and they would speak thousands of dollars. And
798. 01:16:27 then the iPad came out, you could do the same thing. And there was a big fight like, well,
799. 01:16:31 that's not actually a medical device. Well, it does the same thing. You could program the apps
800. 01:16:36 to do the exact same thing. But it didn't go through the channels, didn't have the formal stamp of
801. 01:16:42 approval. And it was always really frustrating because it's like, I'm a parent and I can't get
802. 01:16:48 insurance to pay for this thing. So I'm going to buy it out of pocket, but it's $8,000. Well,
803. 01:16:53 thank God now that there's now there's an iPad with this app that I can get for a couple hundred
804. 01:16:58 dollars instead. And I remember actually going to Washington DC and lobbying. I actually set up
805. 01:17:07 the appointments with the senators and representatives to talk about how we need to get the iPad approved
806. 01:17:15 as a medical device for this use because it can do all the things that these other devices can do,
807. 01:17:20 but it's way more accessible. Yeah. You know, obviously we didn't make any progress there.
808. 01:17:25 Well, but I remember this conversation happened with like AirPods and hearing aids,
809. 01:17:30 right? Like when when they became, you know, was it trends? What's the mode? Translusive mode?
810. 01:17:36 I forget what it was. No, it's not. That's not the right word. But you know what I mean? Like
811. 01:17:39 where you can hear through, it's like a pass through kind of thing. Yeah. And then saying about
812. 01:17:43 how like, well, this is essentially for certain people going to replace the $5,000 hearing aids
813. 01:17:48 with a $200, you know, product. So yeah, that's interesting. That's I hadn't thought about it
814. 01:17:54 from that perspective. All right, Mike, let's bring it around. Let's let's finish out the book.
815. 01:18:00 What other key takeaways do you have? What are your action items from from this book? What are you
816. 01:18:06 going to do different? Well, I don't have a single action item from this. I'll give you one thing
817. 01:18:14 that I am noodling on. So this is kind of like a half action item. Okay. So he does talk about caffeine
818. 01:18:21 and the half life of caffeine, how that impacts sleep. I drink coffee in the morning and I drink
819. 01:18:27 coffee in the early afternoon. And I don't drink a lot, but I do drink more than my wife does.
820. 01:18:36 And maybe more than I need to. Okay. So I am thinking about how do I not trying to like
821. 01:18:44 wean myself off to a point where like, I'm only drinking this much coffee. Like that's not the goal.
822. 01:18:49 I drink coffee not because I need the caffeine because I enjoy the coffee. Okay. Every once in a
823. 01:18:54 while, I go through a season where I'll fast for several days and I will completely cut out coffee
824. 01:18:59 and I don't have the headaches. I'm not addicted to the caffeine, but it probably still has a little
825. 01:19:05 bit bigger impact on me than I realize. So maybe that's just decreasing the amount of coffee that I
826. 01:19:13 have in the afternoon. Maybe it's, you know, I start thinking about that a little bit more
827. 01:19:17 intentionally and I cut out that afternoon coffee altogether. Maybe it's instead of the coffee,
828. 01:19:22 I'm actually replacing that with a nap after lunch. I don't know exactly, but it's something that
829. 01:19:28 I'm thinking about. Okay. All right. Mine is basically, I want to try to sleep eight hours a night.
830. 01:19:34 So there's a pre-step to that one. And the pre-step to that one is I need to think about the plan
831. 01:19:40 and what are my commitments in the early morning? And then if these are my commitments in the early
832. 01:19:46 morning, what's the time I would need to go to bed? And what needs to give? Because something's
833. 01:19:51 going to have to give like I'm not going to be able to go to bed that early. So do I need to bump
834. 01:19:55 the other activity? Do I need to take a season and just not do that activity? I need to think
835. 01:20:01 hard about that one. So my action item is going to be thinking hard about how do I actually get
836. 01:20:06 eight hours of sleep every night? And then help me, because I can't remember if they, if he actually
837. 01:20:12 said this specifically, if I would do like six hours at night in like a two hour nap,
838. 01:20:16 he's saying it's not the same because I'm still missing that REM sleep at the end, right? I need
839. 01:20:21 that eight hour chunk-ish, the eight hour chunk. I was hoping I could theoretically, but I
840. 01:20:26 I don't know. I feel like you kind of have to experiment and practice with this stuff.
841. 01:20:30 So I would do an experiment, you know, do one night where you get six hours and then two hours
842. 01:20:37 and see how you feel. All right. So not a ton of action items out of this book.
843. 01:20:41 Let's go to style and rating. So it's my book. I'll go first.
844. 01:20:47 Here, I'm torn on this one. Like I'm really torn on this one because I think there are some gems
845. 01:20:52 in here. I think there are some gems hidden inside 380 pages. So some of the gems that I'll call out,
846. 01:21:02 right? You know, he said, when sleep is abundant, mind's flourish. When it's deficient, they don't.
847. 01:21:07 He calls out the fact that lack of sleep is a slow form of self euthanasia.
848. 01:21:12 Like, I mean, there are just there are some of these gems in here where and he backs it up with so much
849. 01:21:17 good research and incredible research that you really want to listen. Like I really want to listen
850. 01:21:25 and take action on the things he says. And I want to prioritize sleep because there's one
851. 01:21:31 part he talks about diet, exercise, and then the third pillar is sleep. And we don't often talk
852. 01:21:34 about the third pillar. We talk about diet and exercise all the time. We don't talk about that
853. 01:21:38 that sleep pillar. So I think there's so many of these gems that I come out and I go, man, I really
854. 01:21:43 like, I really like what's here. But it's just packaged in so much of what felt like I want to
855. 01:21:51 tell the world about all the cool research I've done over my 20, 30 year career. And I need an
856. 01:21:58 outlet for that. And I'm going to do that outlet in this book. And like, that rubbed me in a way
857. 01:22:04 that just wasn't like I didn't like it rubbed me the wrong way in terms of I didn't think it was
858. 01:22:08 necessary. So that's not necessarily a knock on him or on the quality of the book. It's a knock on
859. 01:22:14 my liking of the book. So this is a gigantic disclaimer that said there are some really,
860. 01:22:19 really good gems in here that are packaged in a package that's what I think is way too large.
861. 01:22:24 And what I'm trying to figure out is how how low does that knock my rating? Because if I come
862. 01:22:31 out with like a super low rating, you're going to think, Oh, the book's not good at all. And it's
863. 01:22:35 like, no, it's not true. I think I think the book is good. I just like, what I recommend you read
864. 01:22:40 this book? No, I would not like I would not go to my go to a bunch of people and say, Hey,
865. 01:22:44 here's a great one. Right. Go read why you sleep. But what I would what I would recommend is,
866. 01:22:48 let me tell you about why we sleep in 15 to 30 minutes. And you're good. Like, and I think
867. 01:22:56 you're going to be a okay. So what I'm trying to figure out, Mike, and I'm trying to process
868. 01:23:01 verbally right now, like out loud externally and verbally. I mean, I really think I'm at a
869. 01:23:06 two and a half on this one. Am I allowed to do halves? I can't remember. Am I allowed to do half?
870. 01:23:10 You can do half. Yeah. Like I'm at a two and a half. I sit right in the middle of it.
871. 01:23:13 All right, in the middle of the zero to five, you know, rating. So that's where that's where I'm
872. 01:23:19 going to land Europe. All right. I'm going to rate it three stars because I'm not going to do halves.
873. 01:23:26 But that's just me personally. And the because I want to use the stars in obsidian as a property
874. 01:23:32 field and he can't do a half star. So I agree with a lot of what you said. There's a lot of good
875. 01:23:42 information in this book. I don't think I really enjoyed it all that much. You know, the subtitle
876. 01:23:51 is why we sleep. Subtitle is unlocking the power of sleep and dreams. The subtitle should really be
877. 01:23:56 scaring you to sleep or something like that. Like if you don't, all this bad stuff is going
878. 01:24:05 to happen to you. So knock it off and go to sleep. You're really, you're really just killing
879. 01:24:10 yourself, right? Like that's the, that's the. Yep. Yep. But I think that if you're Matthew Walker,
880. 01:24:18 this is almost like your business card. Not just a book that you are writing to help people. I do
881. 01:24:27 think it probably can be helpful. And maybe that aggressive tone that he's got to take is just because
882. 01:24:32 this is by the time you get someone to actually pick up a book on this, you really got to establish
883. 01:24:39 like, Hey, pay attention. This is a really big deal. Again, my situation is a little bit different.
884. 01:24:44 So don't have to do that with me, which is why I felt kind of ridiculous and very sensationalized
885. 01:24:51 for most of it. But the things that he's saying are not, are not sensationalized. It's just a really
886. 01:24:57 big deal. He's done all of the research. I will say the research itself, I got, I got bored with.
887. 01:25:04 Like there's so many mentions to studies. And there's nothing like really sensational about a
888. 01:25:11 lot of the results. It's like we did this study, we saw this percent improvement, we saw this percent
889. 01:25:18 degradation. And you hear that, you know, a hundred times, and it kind of starts to sound the same.
890. 01:25:24 But I'm not in the educational field or the medicinal fields that he's speaking to. So if
891. 01:25:31 you're a doctor, maybe like you could read that stuff all day. And it's interesting to you. Like
892. 01:25:35 I started toin it out after a little bit. The other thing is I feel like the style, he's a pretty good
893. 01:25:42 writer, but I empathize for him because it's really hard. Like every single chapter, he has a
894. 01:25:49 single sentence at the beginning to try to grab you and hook you, which I feel like he does a pretty
895. 01:25:53 good job. And then immediately it goes into the research. It's almost like he knows I'm going to
896. 01:25:58 lose him when I start talking about the research. And I feel like he writes in a style that is very
897. 01:26:06 entertaining. But again, there's only so much you can do with the format that you've chosen and keep
898. 01:26:12 coming back to the research. So by the time you get to page 340, it's kind of like, okay, you know,
899. 01:26:18 it hits different at the beginning than it does at the end. Again, that the tone, not there's anything
900. 01:26:24 necessarily wrong with the tone, but just like the whole format of the book. I feel like if you're
901. 01:26:29 trying to pick up something that is edgy, what is that the edutainment? Like it's educational,
902. 01:26:35 but it's still kind of fun. Like this is not that book. I would agree. I don't know what that book
903. 01:26:40 is. I have not found a great book about sleep, even though it's really something that I pay very
904. 01:26:47 close attention to. So I don't know, maybe, maybe I should write it. I don't have the research, though,
905. 01:26:53 I like if there's one guy to write a book on sleep, it's Matthew Walker. I say just take his book
906. 01:26:59 and just make it more entertaining. Sure, sure. Yeah. I don't know. You could definitely get the
907. 01:27:06 gist of what he's talking about in the single chapter. You know, that's what I told my son
908. 01:27:09 when I was talking about it yesterday. Like there's some aha moments here about the teenagers,
909. 01:27:13 circadian rhythms being pushed back. He's like, Oh, really interesting. Like those are the kind
910. 01:27:17 of conversations I have with my kids that he actually is interested in this, this sort of stuff.
911. 01:27:22 But then like, he's like, well, what do you think of it overall? I'm like, Oh, it's probably like
912. 01:27:26 a 10 page blog post. I told a guy this morning when I was talking about it, I was like, it's a
913. 01:27:32 14 page PDF, right? Like, and I literally said that same phrase. That's funny that you said a 10
914. 01:27:36 page blog post because that was the way I described it to. Yeah. So three stars decent,
915. 01:27:43 I don't know, not super entertaining, but if you really want to dive into the science of sleep,
916. 01:27:49 this is probably worth your time, but 340 pages. I mean, come on, this is a long book. This is not
917. 01:27:54 an easy read. No, no, you're getting into it. Definitely. All right. So let's go ahead and put
918. 01:28:00 why we sleep on the shelf. Mike, you have the next book. So what are we doing for our next book?
919. 01:28:06 I do. And I apologize. I already picked. I just railed on this one for being long,
920. 01:28:11 but the next one's long too. We have we have a full two weeks on this one. So that's true.
921. 01:28:16 That's true. So the next one is super thinking by Gabriel Weinberg and Lauren McCann.
922. 01:28:23 This is one that was recommended to me a long time ago. And as I mentioned, reading
923. 01:28:28 masterclass, usually when someone I respect recommends a book, I buy it immediately. So it's
924. 01:28:32 been on my book shelf for a long time. But then I share an office at the co-working space with
925. 01:28:35 a designer for DuckDuckGo. And he had the book also and I was like, Oh, how'd you hear about that?
926. 01:28:40 Oh, Gabriel Weinberg is the CEO of DuckDuckGo. Oh, interesting. So I've got multiple
927. 01:28:46 recommendations for this now, but it's basically a big book on mental models. I started this last
928. 01:28:50 night. I think it's going to be a pretty easy read. Good. All the mental models, by the way,
929. 01:28:54 if you're taking notes on this, they're all listed in the order that they appear and then like the
930. 01:28:59 inside cover. So that may help you with your mind mapping or note taking. You definitely don't
931. 01:29:05 want to try to capture everything that sounds like it might be important with this. It's essentially
932. 01:29:09 kind of like a reference work for mental models. So I think probably what we'll do is we'll
933. 01:29:13 just broken on to different sections. We'll just pick some of our favorites from the
934. 01:29:17 different sections and talk about it that way. But I love me some mental models.
935. 01:29:21 Awesome. And this one so far is a good one.
936. 01:29:23 Awesome. I'm excited for it. Then in two episodes from now, we are going to cover
937. 01:29:29 Scarcity Brain by Michael Easter. So that's my book. I've read some Michael Easter. I've read
938. 01:29:33 a Michael Easter book before the comfort crisis. And this one's his new one out. And it looks
939. 01:29:39 pretty good in terms of thinking about how your brain works and sort of the dopamine cycle and
940. 01:29:45 the recursive cycle of the way you think through different things. So that'll be the one two episodes
941. 01:29:50 from now. So feel free to pick those up if you're reading along with us. And we'll do Super Thinking
942. 01:29:56 by Gabriel Weinberg and Lauren McCann for the next one. Mike, do you have any gap books
943. 01:30:00 between now and the next episode? I have a stack of books that I want to read as gap books, but I'm
944. 01:30:06 nervous to pick one for having to read Super Thinking as well. Because again, that one is
945. 01:30:13 over 300 pages. It's a pretty big book. I want to make sure I have enough time to get through that.
946. 01:30:17 So that's what I'm focused on. If I am able to start a gap book, I will mention it next time.
947. 01:30:21 How about you? So I said last time that liminal thinking was my gap book. I read maybe like 10
948. 01:30:28 pages in liminal thinking and I was like, oh, this could be good. I'm going to like this. Like,
949. 01:30:32 everything's going to be great. And then why we sleep just completely took over the rest of my
950. 01:30:37 time. So I'd like to keep liminal thinking on the gap book priority chain. We'll see if I have time
951. 01:30:44 with it with super thinking and how quickly I can work through super thinking. So liminal thinking
952. 01:30:50 would be the one that I'm still up there. Awesome. Well, that does it for another episode of Bookworm.
953. 01:30:58 We want to thank everybody for listening along and thank you for reading along.
954. 01:31:02 If you want to know or want to hear more, we have a pro show. So in the pro show today,
955. 01:31:08 we talked about our sleeper or sorry, our bedtime routines. We talked about our bedtime routines
956. 01:31:13 before we try to go and get some good sleep. You can go figure out more and access the
957. 01:31:18 pro show at patreon.com/bookwormfm. So patreon.com/bookwormfm. If you're interested in that,
958. 01:31:27 that comes with not only the pro show, but the bootleg, a wallpaper. What else am I forgetting, Mike?
959. 01:31:35 I think that's it. We're going to do some member special episodes pretty soon, but we haven't
960. 01:31:40 scheduled those yet. We're going to go through the 36 questions that we found in super communicators.
961. 01:31:46 And I think we might go back and talk about liminal thinking as well. So sounds good. Those
962. 01:31:52 will be in the pro feed for people who sign up for that. When you sign up for patreon, it's seven
963. 01:31:57 bucks a month and you get access to the feeds. You just plug them into your podcast catcher of choice
964. 01:32:02 and can download the episodes. Wonderful. So we'll put why we sleep on the shelf. We'll get super
965. 01:32:09 thinking out and we will prep for next time. So thanks everybody for listening.