216: The Courage to Be Disliked by Ichiro Kishimi & Fumitake Koga

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1. 00:00:00 All right, Mike, how are you feeling now?
2. 00:00:02 You've been sick for like the last two months.
3. 00:00:05 So are we finally feeling better?
4. 00:00:06 The entire year?
5. 00:00:07 Yeah.
6. 00:00:09 Yeah, I'm feeling better.
7. 00:00:11 I am slightly tired being sick through a monkey wrench
8. 00:00:17 in my cohort launch plans.
9. 00:00:20 But when we made it through and the first week of the cohort
10. 00:00:25 was a little bit rough because I didn't
11. 00:00:28 do it all the time to prep everything ahead of time.
12. 00:00:31 Like I wanted to.
13. 00:00:31 I was kind of building it the day before I was presenting it.
14. 00:00:34 Because as I mentioned to you, I think it was in the Pro Show.
15. 00:00:38 Maybe it was before that where I can't deal with my videos
16. 00:00:44 being out of date.
17. 00:00:46 So even something is minor as Obsidian
18. 00:00:49 changed the user interface and the gears no longer
19. 00:00:51 in the lower left-hand corner of the ribbon.
20. 00:00:53 Now it's in the bottom of the File Explorer bar
21. 00:00:56 next to the vault name.
22. 00:00:57 That means that I want to redo all of those videos.
23. 00:01:01 So that's what I'm doing.
24. 00:01:03 Yeah, that's a lot of work.
25. 00:01:04 But I'm getting a little bit ahead of it now.
26. 00:01:07 I'm not done editing all of the videos as we record this.
27. 00:01:10 But I'm about a week and a half ahead.
28. 00:01:13 So there's light at the end of the tunnel.
29. 00:01:16 And no, I don't think it's a train.
30. 00:01:18 Well, that's good.
31. 00:01:19 Because if it's a train, you should probably run away.
32. 00:01:22 Yeah.
33. 00:01:23 Well, good, I'm glad you're feeling better.
34. 00:01:25 It's good to have somewhat healthy mic back,
35. 00:01:28 even though we have somewhat tired mic back.
36. 00:01:31 But that's good.
37. 00:01:32 It's a good tired, right?
38. 00:01:32 You're doing good and productive things.
39. 00:01:35 Mike mentioned the Pro Show.
40. 00:01:36 So in the Pro Show today, we talked about challenges.
41. 00:01:39 And whether or not Mike likes challenges or takes on challenges
42. 00:01:42 and the fact that I do all the time, just as a way
43. 00:01:45 to kind of push forward.
44. 00:01:46 So if you're interested in that, you can check us out
45. 00:01:50 at Patreon.com/bookwormfm to check out the--
46. 00:01:54 But you're bearing the lead here.
47. 00:01:57 What people will really find in the Pro Show
48. 00:01:59 is we crack the nut on figuring out a way for Corey
49. 00:02:03 to actually complete his action items.
50. 00:02:06 Yeah.
51. 00:02:07 I mean, maybe-- like, I don't know.
52. 00:02:08 I'm not guaranteeing anything, OK?
53. 00:02:11 I'm not guaranteeing anything.
54. 00:02:13 OK.
55. 00:02:14 OK, so--
56. 00:02:16 Let's talk about--
57. 00:02:17 Speaking of said action items--
58. 00:02:18 Let's talk about follow-up first.
59. 00:02:19 So let's get into follow-up.
60. 00:02:21 Lead the effort to have a conversation.
61. 00:02:22 This is mine.
62. 00:02:23 Sorry, this is my follow-up item.
63. 00:02:24 Actually, I lead the effort to have a conversation
64. 00:02:26 on-- about library co-working sessions.
65. 00:02:30 Yep.
66. 00:02:31 In true form, that didn't happen.
67. 00:02:34 So--
68. 00:02:35 Well, we sort of did before we even finished the last episode.
69. 00:02:41 So--
70. 00:02:42 I think you could actually mark this one as done.
71. 00:02:45 You're too kind.
72. 00:02:46 We have a strategy.
73. 00:02:47 We just haven't had time to talk through the implementation
74. 00:02:51 details, so this is coming for people who support the show.
75. 00:02:58 But give us a few more weeks to figure out the details.
76. 00:03:03 The bottom line is that you're going
77. 00:03:04 to get this and the cost is not going to go up.
78. 00:03:07 Yeah, so additional perks.
79. 00:03:09 Yep.
80. 00:03:10 All right, Mike, so your follow-up item
81. 00:03:13 was to create more checklists.
82. 00:03:15 Were you able to do this and what checklists did you create?
83. 00:03:19 I did not create this.
84. 00:03:20 I'm on the verge of completing this.
85. 00:03:22 If you give me one more week, it probably happens,
86. 00:03:24 because I mentioned in the Pro Show
87. 00:03:28 that you asked me what was the area of challenge
88. 00:03:31 that I would want.
89. 00:03:32 And I said it was probably along the lines of something
90. 00:03:35 that I'm trying to crease, like systems
91. 00:03:37 that I'm trying to build.
92. 00:03:39 I'm not going to have a whole conversation here.
93. 00:03:41 But my takeaway from this is that I
94. 00:03:43 am working with people to help me take my newsletters
95. 00:03:47 and publish them other places.
96. 00:03:49 One of those is going to be a blog,
97. 00:03:51 which is productlpkm.com is going to get an upgrade soon.
98. 00:03:57 And then also to social media.
99. 00:04:00 So I am not at the point where this is actually happening,
100. 00:04:05 yet we've talked through it.
101. 00:04:06 I know this is the things that I'm
102. 00:04:11 going to have this person help me with.
103. 00:04:13 And the next step, then, is to create the documentation,
104. 00:04:16 the SOPs.
105. 00:04:18 So we've got the space set up in Notion 4.
106. 00:04:20 I know exactly where they're going to be.
107. 00:04:21 I know exactly what they're going to be on.
108. 00:04:23 But none of those checklists exist yet.
109. 00:04:27 Hang in there.
110. 00:04:28 Stay strong.
111. 00:04:29 You can do it.
112. 00:04:30 You can make those checklists.
113. 00:04:32 OK, I will.
114. 00:04:33 OK, good.
115. 00:04:35 All right, so let's move on to today's book.
116. 00:04:37 So today's book is The Courage to Be Disliked.
117. 00:04:41 And the whole title is The Courage to Be Disliked,
118. 00:04:43 the Japanese phenomenon that shows you
119. 00:04:45 how to change your life and achieve real happiness.
120. 00:04:48 Now, this book is an interesting format.
121. 00:04:52 I don't think we've read many books of this format.
122. 00:04:55 But it's by Ichiro Kishimi and Fumataki Koga.
123. 00:05:00 And what you learn at the end of the book--
124. 00:05:02 so the very, very end of the book--
125. 00:05:04 is essentially what they did was they
126. 00:05:06 mimicked what they did in real life
127. 00:05:09 and then turned it into a book.
128. 00:05:10 So Ichiro Kishima writes about Adlerian psychology.
129. 00:05:16 And he's a counselor around the Adlerian psychology.
130. 00:05:21 And then Fumataki Koga learned about this,
131. 00:05:24 sought out Ichiro, and then went to visit him
132. 00:05:27 and would have these conversations with him.
133. 00:05:29 Now, the reason I tell you that background
134. 00:05:30 is because the way they structure the book
135. 00:05:33 is it's a philosopher.
136. 00:05:36 So that would be Ichiro.
137. 00:05:38 And then it's a youth.
138. 00:05:40 And that in every section or every chapter of the book,
139. 00:05:42 if you haven't read it yet, is philosophers
140. 00:05:44 as a thing, youth responds, philosophers
141. 00:05:47 responds, and they just have this dialogue back and forth.
142. 00:05:49 So it's meant to be this like, socratic dialogue
143. 00:05:52 around Adlerian psychology.
144. 00:05:55 Mike, I need to stop right now.
145. 00:05:57 And I want to say, if I say Alderian at all,
146. 00:06:01 call me out because for some reason,
147. 00:06:03 my brain wants to switch the L and the D there.
148. 00:06:05 And I've messed this up 100 times personally.
149. 00:06:08 So it's Adlerian.
150. 00:06:10 So Adlerian psychology is based off of Alfred Adler,
151. 00:06:14 who was a Venetian psychologist.
152. 00:06:18 And he developed kind of at the same time of Freud
153. 00:06:24 and Jung, the psychology.
154. 00:06:26 And he was part of the Freudian system
155. 00:06:28 and then he kind of broke away at the time.
156. 00:06:29 So if you're thinking about reading this book,
157. 00:06:33 and as you hear us talk about it,
158. 00:06:35 we cannot get away from human psychology.
159. 00:06:38 The whole book is about human psychology.
160. 00:06:40 It's really Adler's take on human psychology interpreted
161. 00:06:45 by these two individuals as they talk as philosopher and youth.
162. 00:06:50 I think a couple other things that would make sense.
163. 00:06:53 The book is super popular.
164. 00:06:55 I mean, it's sold 10 million copies.
165. 00:06:58 It's described as a TikTok sensation,
166. 00:07:01 which I didn't know a book could be a TikTok sensation,
167. 00:07:04 but there you go.
168. 00:07:05 And then it's like really highly rated on Amazon.
169. 00:07:10 So we're talking 18,000 reviews and four and a half stars.
170. 00:07:13 So what I'll say is generally people really like this book.
171. 00:07:17 And they really like what this book has to say.
172. 00:07:20 What do you have to add?
173. 00:07:21 Are we going to really like this book?
174. 00:07:23 That is the question.
175. 00:07:24 That is the question.
176. 00:07:25 And that is why we hold an hour plus long conversation
177. 00:07:29 about it and figure that out as we go.
178. 00:07:31 Well, I can tell you there are certain people
179. 00:07:33 who will not like this book because in the Wikipedia article,
180. 00:07:39 which I will link to for people
181. 00:07:40 who are interested in Adlarian psychology.
182. 00:07:44 I maybe I pronounced that wrong.
183. 00:07:46 It's also known as individual psychology
184. 00:07:49 and it credits Alfred Adler
185. 00:07:51 and it talks through the basic components
186. 00:07:52 that we will actually work through in the outline.
187. 00:07:56 But also it mentions here that Adler's theory
188. 00:07:59 is similar to Maslow, so Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
189. 00:08:04 And I know there are people in the book or audience
190. 00:08:06 who have issues with that theory specifically.
191. 00:08:11 So that's kind of what you're getting into
192. 00:08:13 and no hard feelings if you decide
193. 00:08:15 to not listen to the rest of the episode, I get it.
194. 00:08:19 But I think this is kind of interesting.
195. 00:08:22 And I'm curious to see where this conversation goes
196. 00:08:26 as we work through the five different nights
197. 00:08:30 that are the chapters here in this book.
198. 00:08:32 - Yeah, I think what I like about this is in the schooling
199. 00:08:39 that I've done so far and in my wife's counseling work,
200. 00:08:43 I've heard a lot about Jung and I've heard a lot about Freud
201. 00:08:45 and I've heard a lot about those two
202. 00:08:47 and I hadn't heard a ton about Adler.
203. 00:08:50 So the idea that there was this other person
204. 00:08:52 and there's even a sub chapter.
205. 00:08:54 So the way this book is structured
206. 00:08:55 is there are five nights, right?
207. 00:08:57 So you have an introduction
208. 00:08:58 and then you have the first night, the second night,
209. 00:08:59 the third night, the fourth night, and the fifth night.
210. 00:09:01 And those are the nights that the youth would go visit
211. 00:09:05 the philosopher and they would have these discussions.
212. 00:09:07 Like that's the way they structure it
213. 00:09:08 and they have a subtitle to them and all that.
214. 00:09:10 But in one of the nights or sorry,
215. 00:09:13 all the nights have like sub chapters within those
216. 00:09:15 and one of them is called the unknown third giant.
217. 00:09:17 So at least for these two individuals,
218. 00:09:20 these two authors, they see Adler
219. 00:09:22 at the level of Jung and Freud
220. 00:09:25 and not being a psychology major
221. 00:09:27 and Mike, you were a business major.
222. 00:09:28 So neither of us are psychology majors.
223. 00:09:30 I have no idea if that's legit or not, but okay,
224. 00:09:34 here you go.
225. 00:09:34 Like this is what they think.
226. 00:09:37 - Yeah, so my wife started off as a psychology major.
227. 00:09:41 I'm not sure why she wouldn't be able to tell you either
228. 00:09:44 probably because that was never really her thing.
229. 00:09:46 She ended up with a art degree
230. 00:09:48 and was a professional photographer for quite a while.
231. 00:09:51 But she did a couple of years of psychology.
232. 00:09:54 There was one class in particular,
233. 00:09:56 it might have been abnormal psychology
234. 00:09:58 that was kind of the straw that broke the camel's back for her.
235. 00:10:03 But I'd be curious to see if our conversation
236. 00:10:07 in this episode triggers anything from her studies.
237. 00:10:11 - I mentioned Adler to my wife who studied counseling
238. 00:10:14 and she's like, oh yeah, I know of Adler.
239. 00:10:17 I've read individual psychology stuff and blah, blah, blah.
240. 00:10:19 And then we just stopped, like she didn't want to carry
241. 00:10:22 that conversation on anymore.
242. 00:10:23 So I don't know if that's like,
243. 00:10:24 it wasn't that interesting or if she was just busy
244. 00:10:27 and didn't really feel like talking about it, so.
245. 00:10:30 - Maybe all of the above, I don't know.
246. 00:10:33 - So if we get into the introduction,
247. 00:10:35 I think the way I've structured the introduction is,
248. 00:10:39 or my thought on the introduction is,
249. 00:10:41 it's really like kind of high level,
250. 00:10:43 but there are pieces of information later on in the book
251. 00:10:48 that I think are valuable to be brought back up
252. 00:10:50 into the introduction.
253. 00:10:51 So I'm gonna describe some of those here.
254. 00:10:54 And we'll see where we go from here.
255. 00:10:56 But you basically get this idea of people can change
256. 00:11:01 and that everybody can find happiness.
257. 00:11:03 So happiness is a key feature of this book
258. 00:11:07 and the youth is trying to find happiness.
259. 00:11:10 And then you get the idea of what the heck
260. 00:11:13 Adlerian psychology is.
261. 00:11:15 And it's the psychology for changing oneself,
262. 00:11:18 not a psychology for changing others.
263. 00:11:21 And it's basically you and no one else.
264. 00:11:24 So it's dedicated to your, what they call lifestyle,
265. 00:11:26 which Adler has this whole thing about what lifestyle is.
266. 00:11:30 We, there's this idea of interpersonal relationships
267. 00:11:34 and everything essentially is based
268. 00:11:36 around this interpersonal relationships.
269. 00:11:38 And then we get into the idea of courage, right?
270. 00:11:40 So there's the psychology of courage
271. 00:11:41 and the psychology of use.
272. 00:11:43 And then this idea of not needing to seek recognition
273. 00:11:47 from others and how that plays into it.
274. 00:11:49 And then kind of when you get to the very, very end of it,
275. 00:11:52 it brings in community, right?
276. 00:11:53 So usefulness and usefulness to community
277. 00:11:56 and how does all, how does all of that play in?
278. 00:11:58 So from the introduction standpoint,
279. 00:12:00 it's really just setting the stage
280. 00:12:02 for what the nature of the dialogue is gonna be
281. 00:12:05 and setting the stage for a little bit
282. 00:12:06 about what Adler talked about.
283. 00:12:10 - Yeah, the things that I jotted down
284. 00:12:11 from this section was really just the format
285. 00:12:15 of the rest of the book.
286. 00:12:17 I mean, they do kind of sprinkle in some of the core ideas,
287. 00:12:20 which you sort of hit on, but so just a couple of bullets
288. 00:12:25 where this youth is approaching this philosopher
289. 00:12:28 to debate that life in the world is simple.
290. 00:12:31 He makes the argument that when you're a youth,
291. 00:12:33 you're protected by adults, so life is simple.
292. 00:12:35 When you become an adult though, life gets complicated,
293. 00:12:37 mentions that religion no longer has power
294. 00:12:40 and people do not have a real belief in God.
295. 00:12:42 So people are filled with anxiety and doubt
296. 00:12:44 and the philosopher tells the youth that the world is simple,
297. 00:12:46 but you are making it complicated.
298. 00:12:48 So that's the setting for the rest of the book
299. 00:12:52 and then the first night, second night, third night,
300. 00:12:54 et cetera for the different chapters.
301. 00:12:56 Those are basically conversations
302. 00:12:59 between the youth and the philosopher,
303. 00:13:00 which reads like a script for a play.
304. 00:13:04 - It does.
305. 00:13:05 - And then gets to a point where the youth is like,
306. 00:13:07 "What, how in the world can that be possible?"
307. 00:13:09 And then he's like, "I gotta go home and think about this."
308. 00:13:11 Then comes back and they talk about it some more.
309. 00:13:14 - So we'll get into this in style and rating.
310. 00:13:16 So I don't wanna put the cart too far before the horse,
311. 00:13:18 but I think that was one of my rubs of the book
312. 00:13:22 is like, ah, it was almost too scripted.
313. 00:13:26 It was almost too like play dialogue where it's like,
314. 00:13:28 "How on earth could you ever think that?"
315. 00:13:30 Like that is blah, blah, blah, blah, right?
316. 00:13:32 And I was like, okay, I don't think people
317. 00:13:34 would really talk like that.
318. 00:13:36 Like you would disagree, but I don't think
319. 00:13:37 you'd really talk like that.
320. 00:13:38 And that kind of took the dialogue down
321. 00:13:42 a little bit of a notch for me
322. 00:13:43 is the overplay of that dialogue.
323. 00:13:45 - Well, I think it's possible that that is the way
324. 00:13:48 that the dialogue would actually go,
325. 00:13:51 but it also feels weird to read it like that word for word.
326. 00:13:57 And again, like I don't have a drama background.
327. 00:13:59 Both of my oldest sons are currently at the rehearsals
328. 00:14:06 for newsies, so they maybe have a different opinion.
329. 00:14:11 But I agree, it feels like a little bit extreme
330. 00:14:15 and sort of just like an unbelievable,
331. 00:14:17 nobody talks that way.
332. 00:14:18 But also it sort of reminds me it's not exactly the same.
333. 00:14:22 The format is different, but kind of like what people say
334. 00:14:25 and sort of the same feeling of nobody talks that way
335. 00:14:31 occurred to me when I would read the Patrick Lencioni books,
336. 00:14:35 like the five dysfunctions of a team is one
337. 00:14:37 that stands out to me.
338. 00:14:37 I love that book because the ideas that are in it
339. 00:14:40 are really powerful, but I remember reading the story
340. 00:14:44 and being like, this doesn't, this is ridiculous.
341. 00:14:50 And for whatever reason, in that particular book,
342. 00:14:53 I was able to push back, pass that at some point.
343. 00:14:56 I couldn't even tell you exactly when it happened,
344. 00:14:58 but I realized that at the beginning,
345. 00:15:00 I was like, well, this story is absurd.
346. 00:15:02 And then eventually I clicked into it
347. 00:15:06 and it kept me turning the pages
348. 00:15:08 and mission accomplished from the author's perspective.
349. 00:15:11 He was able to impart his message.
350. 00:15:13 And I do think that the parable format
351. 00:15:16 that Lencioni uses and kind of the back and forth dialogue
352. 00:15:19 here that is in this book, it can be effective
353. 00:15:24 for making these ideas maybe a little bit stickier
354. 00:15:26 than they would be if you just presented
355. 00:15:28 the information like a normal productivity book would.
356. 00:15:31 - Yeah, yeah, I would agree with that.
357. 00:15:33 Are you ready to move on to night one?
358. 00:15:36 - Let's do it.
359. 00:15:37 - Okay, so the first night is called deny trauma.
360. 00:15:41 So again, they're gonna get into this dialogue
361. 00:15:43 and they're gonna start talking about different things.
362. 00:15:46 I don't remember what kicked off the idea
363. 00:15:50 of what the youth brought up,
364. 00:15:51 but the youth would bring up something and say, you know,
365. 00:15:53 this thing and then the philosopher would come back
366. 00:15:55 and respond and respond with Adlerian principles and ideas.
367. 00:16:01 So a couple of things I got out of this first section
368. 00:16:05 to get us started.
369. 00:16:06 So realizing that Adler was one of the main, you know,
370. 00:16:12 psychologists at the time and kind of came from that
371. 00:16:15 Freudian school of thought but differed and broke away.
372. 00:16:20 The idea that said instead of causes,
373. 00:16:23 which Freud was talked about like, oh, I do this now
374. 00:16:26 because this happened to me previously,
375. 00:16:29 you know, this cause and effect thing that Adler says,
376. 00:16:32 no, that's actually not the way it is.
377. 00:16:34 I do this now because I have some goal
378. 00:16:37 that's actually, you know, encouraging me to do this now
379. 00:16:40 or I'm doing this behavior now because I'm trying
380. 00:16:42 to achieve some other goal.
381. 00:16:44 So he calls it teleology and it's creating a state
382. 00:16:49 of something as a means to achieve a goal.
383. 00:16:52 So the example might have been,
384. 00:16:54 'cause I'm looking at, caught it in my notes now,
385. 00:16:56 creating the state of fear or creating the state
386. 00:16:58 of anxiety, which achieves the goal of being a recluse.
387. 00:17:03 So I don't ever leave my house.
388. 00:17:05 So I create this state of fear or anxiety
389. 00:17:07 that way I never leave my house.
390. 00:17:08 And that's kind of the nature of, you know,
391. 00:17:13 instead of cause and effect, you go to this idea of goal
392. 00:17:16 and action or, you know, lifestyle, I guess, if you will
393. 00:17:20 because I want this other thing to occur.
394. 00:17:23 - Yeah, there's a, I don't know how much we want
395. 00:17:26 to get into the actual psychology here
396. 00:17:28 because there are several points that they make
397. 00:17:32 in each one of these nights.
398. 00:17:35 The format of the book, there are these tiny little chapters
399. 00:17:38 and I don't even know how many there are in the entire book
400. 00:17:41 but probably like 50.
401. 00:17:42 - Yeah, there's a lot.
402. 00:17:43 Yeah, there's a lot.
403. 00:17:44 - So we're not gonna tackle it that way
404. 00:17:45 but each one of those is kind of encompassing
405. 00:17:48 a specific idea.
406. 00:17:49 I guess, you know, a couple of things
407. 00:17:51 that jumped out to me here.
408. 00:17:52 Number one, right at the beginning,
409. 00:17:55 he talks about another book by Dale Carnegie
410. 00:17:59 which I've read, what is it?
411. 00:18:03 - Win Friends.
412. 00:18:04 - How to Win Friends and Influence People,
413. 00:18:05 the famous one, which I really like that book.
414. 00:18:09 I know that there's maybe some,
415. 00:18:12 I don't know, people have maybe some negative feelings
416. 00:18:15 just towards the title of it
417. 00:18:16 but that's not really what it's about.
418. 00:18:18 It's not a manipulative book at all.
419. 00:18:21 There's another Dale Carnegie book that they mentioned,
420. 00:18:23 how to stop worrying and start living
421. 00:18:25 and I guess just the stage of life that I'm in,
422. 00:18:29 that one jumped out to me.
423. 00:18:31 So I actually ordered that book.
424. 00:18:33 You can't buy the book individually on Amazon,
425. 00:18:37 you have to get like a box set.
426. 00:18:38 So that's what I did.
427. 00:18:40 - Okay.
428. 00:18:41 - But that one was interesting to me
429. 00:18:43 and I like the idea of, from the introduction,
430. 00:18:47 just life is simple but you're making it hard.
431. 00:18:52 We're not controlled by our emotion,
432. 00:18:54 just like we're not controlled by our past.
433. 00:18:56 Our self is determined not by what happens to us
434. 00:18:59 but the meaning that we give those events.
435. 00:19:01 Like I can get on board with those ideas.
436. 00:19:05 He uses a quote from Adler that I jotted down
437. 00:19:09 'cause I think it's important.
438. 00:19:10 The important thing is not what one is born with
439. 00:19:12 but what use one makes of that equipment.
440. 00:19:17 I feel like that's very much an alignment
441. 00:19:20 with my own personal ethos, philosophy, whatever.
442. 00:19:24 Like it's part of like the vision of values piece,
443. 00:19:27 the life theme, stuff that really has clicked for me
444. 00:19:31 and I try to help other people with.
445. 00:19:34 But I didn't wanna talk about this thing
446. 00:19:36 that he mentions of people living with the possibility
447. 00:19:39 of I can do it if I try.
448. 00:19:41 Do you remember that part of this?
449. 00:19:43 - No, I do.
450. 00:19:44 - Okay.
451. 00:19:45 So that is one of my pet peeves.
452. 00:19:49 Like I don't wanna be around people like that
453. 00:19:53 just because in my opinion they're talkers,
454. 00:19:57 they're not doers.
455. 00:19:58 And if you're really gonna boil it down
456. 00:20:01 as to like, well, why is that such a big deal?
457. 00:20:05 I really think that there's truth to that saying
458. 00:20:08 you are the average of the five people
459. 00:20:09 you spend the most time with.
460. 00:20:11 Put another way, Jim Rohn said,
461. 00:20:13 who are you allowing to speak into your life?
462. 00:20:15 What effect is that having on you and is that okay?
463. 00:20:18 I feel like that sort of attitude is dangerous
464. 00:20:23 for me because I can fall into that too.
465. 00:20:27 And when it's all said and done,
466. 00:20:29 I want more done than said.
467. 00:20:32 So I don't know, I get like specific people
468. 00:20:36 that come to mind when I hear that phrase.
469. 00:20:38 Like, oh yeah, you know,
470. 00:20:40 they've always got this great idea
471. 00:20:41 that they wanna talk to me about.
472. 00:20:43 And it's to the point now where I have to catch myself
473. 00:20:45 because the minute that, you know, I see them approaching me
474. 00:20:48 to tell me about their latest great idea,
475. 00:20:50 I kinda wanna just like shut them down and not listen.
476. 00:20:53 And I know that like, that's a jerk move
477. 00:20:55 and I really shouldn't do that.
478. 00:20:57 But that's sort of the tendency is like,
479. 00:20:59 the shields go up basically.
480. 00:21:01 - Yep, I understand.
481. 00:21:03 - And let's get this over with, you know,
482. 00:21:05 and then I can get back to actually doing something.
483. 00:21:09 Do you have that sort of visceral reaction
484. 00:21:13 to that sort of thing?
485. 00:21:15 And do you know anybody like that?
486. 00:21:18 - I do, so as you're describing it,
487. 00:21:19 I'm thinking of individuals in my head because I get it.
488. 00:21:23 Now where I'd be a hypocrite is there are certain things
489. 00:21:27 in my life where it's like, I'm that way.
490. 00:21:29 And I'm trying to figure out like, why am I that way?
491. 00:21:31 Like why do I always talk about or think about
492. 00:21:33 wanting to do a thing?
493. 00:21:35 And like one of the gut checks here is,
494. 00:21:37 I don't remember what night it was on,
495. 00:21:39 but one of the gut checks here is like,
496. 00:21:42 oh, like there are things that I'll make excuses for, right?
497. 00:21:46 And I'll be like, oh, I would do that thing, but yada yada yada.
498. 00:21:51 And Adler, you know, for the authors here
499. 00:21:54 and then Adler's principles would say, no, no, no, no, no.
500. 00:21:58 Like you're making an excuse or you actually don't have
501. 00:22:02 the goal to do the thing.
502. 00:22:04 Your goal is to make the excuse for doing the thing.
503. 00:22:07 So then you go find it.
504. 00:22:09 So it's like, yes, I have those people
505. 00:22:10 that I have the same visceral reaction that you do.
506. 00:22:13 And then I think, yeah, but you do that too, Corey.
507. 00:22:16 Like there are certain aspects of life where you do that too.
508. 00:22:19 So I think one of the fun things about this book,
509. 00:22:24 and I don't mean fun in like a ha ha ha kind of way,
510. 00:22:27 but one of the things that made this book a challenge to read,
511. 00:22:29 it made it interesting to read was there were certain times
512. 00:22:31 where I was like, okay, I really agree with that premise.
513. 00:22:34 There were certain times where I was like,
514. 00:22:35 I do not agree with that premise at all.
515. 00:22:37 And then there were certain times where like the premise
516. 00:22:38 really challenged me and I was like, hmm,
517. 00:22:41 I should think about like how that applies to my life
518. 00:22:44 and some of the things that I do.
519. 00:22:47 So like another one that comes from this one
520. 00:22:50 is this idea that no matter what's happened in life
521. 00:22:53 up until now, it doesn't have a bearing
522. 00:22:56 on how I live from now on.
523. 00:22:58 Like I think this is a really good principle.
524. 00:22:59 I think this is a really good thing to follow through.
525. 00:23:02 Now, where I get in a little bit of the screaming here is
526. 00:23:05 it should have no bearing on how you live.
527. 00:23:07 It's like, hold on, it might need to have a little bearing
528. 00:23:09 on how you live now.
529. 00:23:11 But like, what I think the point of it is,
530. 00:23:13 or the way I took the point of it is,
531. 00:23:15 is don't let the things that have happened in the past
532. 00:23:17 stop you from making progress or developing habits
533. 00:23:20 around those things.
534. 00:23:21 We like to talk about habits, right?
535. 00:23:23 So developing habits around those things
536. 00:23:24 that you want it to do, right?
537. 00:23:27 Like, so, okay, silly example, you know,
538. 00:23:29 we were talking about running in the pro show, right?
539. 00:23:31 Well, don't let the fact that you've over eaten
540. 00:23:34 for 15 years of your life and you're overweight
541. 00:23:36 stop you from the idea of running now.
542. 00:23:40 Like, you can start now, you can go now.
543. 00:23:42 Now, does it have no bearing?
544. 00:23:43 No, it actually has a bearing.
545. 00:23:45 Like, you need to be able, you have to start slower.
546. 00:23:47 You maybe can't run as far.
547. 00:23:48 You can't, you know, like those kinds of things.
548. 00:23:50 But that doesn't mean you can't become a runner, you know,
549. 00:23:53 as you go.
550. 00:23:54 And this is where like, you can see my brain kind of
551. 00:23:56 splitting different things in half
552. 00:23:58 and trying to figure out where I take these ideas
553. 00:24:01 and where I don't.
554. 00:24:02 - Sure.
555. 00:24:04 Yeah, one other thing I'll mention from this section
556. 00:24:07 that I liked, but not, you know,
557. 00:24:09 as it pertains to individual psychology.
558. 00:24:12 It mentions that in Greek, the words for good,
559. 00:24:15 which is agathon and evil, kakan.
560. 00:24:19 Hope I wrote those right.
561. 00:24:20 They simply mean beneficial or not beneficial.
562. 00:24:22 That's the big takeaway.
563. 00:24:24 Which, as we record this, just went through the ideas week
564. 00:24:28 for the practical PKM cohort.
565. 00:24:31 And that's one of the key ideas.
566. 00:24:32 And I've never really heard it phrased that way.
567. 00:24:35 But the way I describe it in terms of capturing things
568. 00:24:37 is you don't want to capture the things
569. 00:24:39 that might be important someday.
570. 00:24:40 You want to capture the things that are useful.
571. 00:24:43 But I like this, you know, beneficial.
572. 00:24:45 'Cause really it's all about capturing the things
573. 00:24:47 as, you know, individual mental lego blocks
574. 00:24:49 that you can use then when you are remixing things
575. 00:24:52 and making something new.
576. 00:24:53 I might adopt this beneficial or not beneficial idea
577. 00:24:58 as it pertains to PKM.
578. 00:25:01 So interpersonal relationships.
579. 00:25:02 Mike, I'm intrigued.
580. 00:25:04 Adlarian psychology says basically it's all about
581. 00:25:08 interpersonal relationships.
582. 00:25:09 And then they'll classify these interpersonal relationships
583. 00:25:12 where it's like you and a loved one or you and a boss
584. 00:25:16 or you in the world and like society.
585. 00:25:20 Mike, do you think that all problems
586. 00:25:23 are interpersonal relationship problems?
587. 00:25:26 - I do actually.
588. 00:25:27 - Okay.
589. 00:25:28 So I've heard it said this way.
590. 00:25:29 People are always the problem
591. 00:25:31 and people are always the solution.
592. 00:25:34 Sometimes the person is you.
593. 00:25:36 So it's not just like, I got to get out of this situation
594. 00:25:38 and these people are holding me down.
595. 00:25:40 But yeah, I think how you view and manage those relationships
596. 00:25:46 is probably the most important thing that you can do
597. 00:25:53 in terms of your, I was gonna say individual success,
598. 00:25:56 but it's really not about the success.
599. 00:25:58 It's really just about fulfilling,
600. 00:26:00 I think your individual purpose for a lack of a better word,
601. 00:26:04 finding meaning in your life.
602. 00:26:06 Another way to put this would be,
603. 00:26:09 I read this book a while back called "The Second Mountain"
604. 00:26:12 by David Brooks.
605. 00:26:13 Are you familiar with that book?
606. 00:26:15 - Only because you've talked about it.
607. 00:26:16 I've not read it, but only--
608. 00:26:17 - Yeah, it was really good.
609. 00:26:18 And basically the idea is you spend your life
610. 00:26:23 climbing this first mountain.
611. 00:26:24 You get to the mountain top.
612. 00:26:25 That's a theme that pops up in this book also.
613. 00:26:28 It's trying to get to the mountain top,
614. 00:26:29 but you get to the top of the mountain,
615. 00:26:31 you look around and you're like, is this it?
616. 00:26:34 What's next?
617. 00:26:34 And then you see there's another mountain over there.
618. 00:26:37 That's the one you should have been climbing the whole time.
619. 00:26:39 The first mountain, it's all about you,
620. 00:26:40 the second mountain, it's all about other people.
621. 00:26:44 So I didn't make that connection when I read it,
622. 00:26:47 but I can see the same sort of philosophy
623. 00:26:53 being communicated here.
624. 00:26:55 And yeah, I think I generally agree with it.
625. 00:26:57 - I do too, right?
626. 00:26:58 I kind of set it up to see where you land on that.
627. 00:27:02 I do too.
628. 00:27:03 So I think that if you could live in pure isolation,
629. 00:27:07 which they say in the book, you can't, right?
630. 00:27:09 Like it's impossible to live in pure isolation.
631. 00:27:11 But if you could live in pure isolation,
632. 00:27:13 a lot of the problems or all of the problems would go away.
633. 00:27:16 You wouldn't have these problems
634. 00:27:17 'cause you wouldn't be comparing yourself to others.
635. 00:27:18 And then these interpersonal relationship problems,
636. 00:27:21 now you get rid of this fear of inferiority,
637. 00:27:23 this trying to have superiority over other people
638. 00:27:26 that if you're in pure isolation,
639. 00:27:28 you don't need to have any of that.
640. 00:27:30 Like none of that exists.
641. 00:27:31 It's not coming at you.
642. 00:27:32 You're not projecting it onto other people.
643. 00:27:35 So you can see kind of,
644. 00:27:39 I think there's a fairly good,
645. 00:27:41 at least in my perspective, logical chain of reasoning
646. 00:27:44 through the way this works.
647. 00:27:46 These are interpersonal relationship problems.
648. 00:27:47 Well, where do they come from?
649. 00:27:48 They come from these feelings of inferiority.
650. 00:27:50 So what do we do?
651. 00:27:51 We act in certain ways based on these feelings of inferiority.
652. 00:27:54 Well, then we get this idea of what we wanna be,
653. 00:27:57 we wanna move forward or gain superiority over people.
654. 00:28:00 So what do we do?
655. 00:28:01 We act in these other ways which these cause these problems.
656. 00:28:04 And I think as I'm reading this the whole time,
657. 00:28:07 like there's these scenarios popping into my head.
658. 00:28:09 And some of them were things I'm doing.
659. 00:28:12 And some of them were things people do around me
660. 00:28:16 or with me or whatever it is.
661. 00:28:17 And I'm thinking to myself like,
662. 00:28:18 oh yeah, like that makes total sense.
663. 00:28:20 Like I actually understand this.
664. 00:28:21 This makes total sense.
665. 00:28:23 So this was one of those areas
666. 00:28:26 where it really, really resonated with me.
667. 00:28:29 I had never heard it pitch this way.
668. 00:28:31 Again, I knew nothing about Adlerian psychology,
669. 00:28:34 but man, like I thought this was a really, really interesting,
670. 00:28:38 you know, night two was a really, really interesting section
671. 00:28:40 to me and a really good section to me.
672. 00:28:43 - Yeah, there's a bunch of cool, cool things
673. 00:28:45 in this particular section.
674. 00:28:48 So you kind of mentioned the inferiority complex,
675. 00:28:51 but there's also the superiority complex.
676. 00:28:53 You touched on this a little bit.
677. 00:28:55 I view that as kind of like two ends of the spectrum.
678. 00:28:59 And really what the philosopher is encouraging the youth
679. 00:29:02 to do at this point is to step off the scale essentially.
680. 00:29:07 Like you don't want either of those things.
681. 00:29:09 And this is how it's all making it
682. 00:29:12 and making everything complicated.
683. 00:29:16 Talking about how when you're engaged in a power struggle,
684. 00:29:18 step down from the conflict as soon as you can,
685. 00:29:21 you really don't need to view life as a competition.
686. 00:29:26 And when I heard that part, it kind of reminded me
687. 00:29:30 of like the abundance versus the scarcity mindset.
688. 00:29:37 And scarcity is basically, there's only so much to go around.
689. 00:29:41 So I have to put other people down
690. 00:29:44 so that I can get what I deserve essentially.
691. 00:29:48 And the abundance mindset is basically,
692. 00:29:51 there's no shortage of success.
693. 00:29:54 So, you know, me succeeding doesn't prevent,
694. 00:29:57 or you succeeding doesn't prevent me
695. 00:29:59 from succeeding and vice versa.
696. 00:30:01 So we could just chill and cheer each other on.
697. 00:30:04 And that's where I think it's kind of going here.
698. 00:30:07 Now, if you're in the middle of this,
699. 00:30:09 like he's trying to counsel this youth basically,
700. 00:30:12 and he's in the middle of all of this interpersonal struggle,
701. 00:30:16 he's like, well, you gotta change.
702. 00:30:19 And he's like, well, I can't change
703. 00:30:21 because the people around me won't change,
704. 00:30:23 which that is a whole interesting, circular argument there.
705. 00:30:28 So one of the things that I jotted down from this,
706. 00:30:29 which I think is interesting,
707. 00:30:31 is that if you change, those around you will change too.
708. 00:30:33 It's not explicitly saying like it's gotta start with you.
709. 00:30:38 But one of the topics that I'm fascinated in
710. 00:30:41 is the whole idea of self-determination,
711. 00:30:44 which I don't think, you know, exactly aligns with this.
712. 00:30:47 But just the history with this,
713. 00:30:50 I worked for a long time with the family business.
714. 00:30:53 And my dad has a master's in assessment.
715. 00:30:56 So he developed these research-based assessment
716. 00:30:59 skill building tools in the area of emotional intelligence.
717. 00:31:02 And part of that is this whole idea
718. 00:31:05 of personal responsibility or self-determination.
719. 00:31:07 And one of my favorite things to do
720. 00:31:10 when I worked at the company is I would do these webinars
721. 00:31:14 and I would do them with like academic at-risk programs,
722. 00:31:18 which are typically full of inner city youth
723. 00:31:22 that come from single parent homes
724. 00:31:24 and they have been told their entire lives,
725. 00:31:26 "It's not your fault, you were born in this situation."
726. 00:31:28 100% true.
727. 00:31:30 You know, there are negative things that have happened to you
728. 00:31:33 that you didn't ask for, you didn't deserve this,
729. 00:31:36 but the whole program and like all the research
730. 00:31:39 that goes into documenting and this is where people were
731. 00:31:43 and this is what happened after,
732. 00:31:44 like getting them to change their mindset
733. 00:31:47 and take responsibility, not for all the things
734. 00:31:49 that happened to them or you know, why they are where they are,
735. 00:31:53 but taking responsibility for changing their path
736. 00:31:56 and moving forward and all of the good
737. 00:31:59 that can come from that, like it's so,
738. 00:32:03 it was so life-giving and encouraging and rewarding for me
739. 00:32:07 to hear the stories about the kids
740. 00:32:09 who are in the, you know, the terrible situations
741. 00:32:11 and they got a hold of this message
742. 00:32:13 and they completely turned their lives around.
743. 00:32:16 But the hard part is like you're in that
744. 00:32:19 that this, in the software would talk about
745. 00:32:22 this victim thinking cycle, you know,
746. 00:32:25 where procrastination leads to blame leads to victim thinking
747. 00:32:28 and it's like, well, you know, somebody's gotta come in
748. 00:32:30 and change this for me and the sad reality maybe
749. 00:32:35 is that no one's really gonna do that,
750. 00:32:38 but the encouraging truth is that you have the power
751. 00:32:42 to do that yourself.
752. 00:32:43 You don't need anybody's permission.
753. 00:32:45 So again, this is kind of like tangential
754. 00:32:47 to what he's talking about here,
755. 00:32:49 but that's what was triggered in me
756. 00:32:50 when he's talking about, no, someone's gotta change
757. 00:32:54 and it may as well be you
758. 00:32:55 because if you're waiting for somebody else to do it first,
759. 00:32:57 you may be waiting quite a while.
760. 00:32:59 - Yeah.
761. 00:33:00 - But when you do that, you know, just to wrap up the thought,
762. 00:33:03 you know, when you do that, it kicks off
763. 00:33:05 a positive chain reaction.
764. 00:33:07 So it's kind of like we're in this cycle of suck.
765. 00:33:09 It's dragging us down into the drain, you know,
766. 00:33:12 kind of like the water that's swirling around the drain
767. 00:33:15 in the shower when you pull the plug.
768. 00:33:18 But it's kind of exciting to think
769. 00:33:21 about how you can actually reverse that
770. 00:33:23 with a simple perspective choice.
771. 00:33:26 And I don't think that's overstating it at all.
772. 00:33:29 - And he gets at this with the difference
773. 00:33:31 between the inferiority complex
774. 00:33:35 and then the feeling of inferiority, right?
775. 00:33:37 So inferiority complex says,
776. 00:33:41 A is the situation, therefore, B cannot be done.
777. 00:33:43 So because of the situation, it cannot be done.
778. 00:33:45 And like that's flat, like that is just true.
779. 00:33:48 And he says, no, the feeling of inferiority
780. 00:33:52 is a stimulant to actually have you go and do something
781. 00:33:56 and to change what he would then call lifestyle, right?
782. 00:33:58 Your actions and the way you behave right now
783. 00:34:01 in order to kind of overcome that feeling of inferiority,
784. 00:34:04 which isn't a bad, like it's not a bad thing.
785. 00:34:06 So we often look at inferiority and say like,
786. 00:34:08 oh, you know, let's use a silly example.
787. 00:34:11 Mike has more followers on X, social media account,
788. 00:34:15 therefore I feel inferior to him, right?
789. 00:34:18 I can never get as good as Mike, you know, blah blah blah.
790. 00:34:21 Whereas it's like, no, like, Mike has more followers.
791. 00:34:24 I, maybe I want more followers.
792. 00:34:26 So what am I gonna do?
793. 00:34:26 I'm gonna change my actions every day
794. 00:34:27 to try to get, you know, get more followers or whatever it might be.
795. 00:34:30 And like, I think that's a really valuable way
796. 00:34:33 to think about it 'cause it takes that idea of inferiority,
797. 00:34:35 which we inherently think of as negative
798. 00:34:37 and moves it to do something about it.
799. 00:34:40 Like you said, like do something,
800. 00:34:42 make that change and adjust things.
801. 00:34:45 - Exactly, which probably leads us into the third one.
802. 00:34:48 - Well, hold on, there's one more key idea
803. 00:34:50 that we have to get in here is this idea of tasks.
804. 00:34:52 - Sure.
805. 00:34:53 - So in night two, we still are talking about tasks, right?
806. 00:34:57 - Yep, well, actually, so the third night
807. 00:35:01 is really where he talks about tasks.
808. 00:35:03 But he does talk about work in the second night.
809. 00:35:06 So it kind of sets the stage for it a little bit.
810. 00:35:09 - Yeah, he talks about work tasks, friendship tasks,
811. 00:35:11 and love tasks and how he delineates these ideas.
812. 00:35:15 And then the reason why that's important
813. 00:35:17 is as we get into the third night,
814. 00:35:18 so let's go ahead and transition into the third night,
815. 00:35:20 is because now we're gonna start talking about
816. 00:35:21 what we do, the fact that we need to separate these tasks.
817. 00:35:23 And there are tasks where they're my tasks
818. 00:35:28 and there are tasks that are Mike's tasks.
819. 00:35:30 And when the interpersonal relationship problems happen
820. 00:35:33 is when I try to inject myself into Mike's tasks,
821. 00:35:39 or when Mike tries to inject himself into my tasks.
822. 00:35:42 And when we do that, we end up essentially
823. 00:35:46 causing these interpersonal relationship problems,
824. 00:35:48 and the better option would be to separate those tasks.
825. 00:35:52 And would we just be like, no, that's Mike.
826. 00:35:55 And if Mike's gonna think that way,
827. 00:35:56 if he's gonna feel that way,
828. 00:35:57 if that's the way he's gonna respond to that task,
829. 00:35:59 that's not me, and therefore, I shouldn't take that on
830. 00:36:04 as my burden, if you will.
831. 00:36:06 I don't know if I'm doing the justice,
832. 00:36:07 but that's my high level of separation of tasks.
833. 00:36:10 - I love this section so much.
834. 00:36:12 (laughs)
835. 00:36:14 So this isn't exactly what he's talking about,
836. 00:36:17 but what it reminded me of is literally
837. 00:36:20 in the cohort this week,
838. 00:36:22 talking about how email is a to-do list
839. 00:36:24 that other people can write on,
840. 00:36:26 and you've got to disconnect from
841. 00:36:28 when someone says they want something from you,
842. 00:36:31 there's always urgency applied to it,
843. 00:36:32 and that masquerades as importance.
844. 00:36:35 So you have to figure out for yourself,
845. 00:36:39 what am I actually going to do with this?
846. 00:36:41 Sometimes it's, yeah, I wanna help this person out.
847. 00:36:44 Sometimes it's, no, I have important things I need to do,
848. 00:36:46 and I'm sorry, I can't help you.
849. 00:36:48 (laughs)
850. 00:36:49 So the whole idea of the differentiation
851. 00:36:53 between my tasks and other people's tasks,
852. 00:36:55 like I'm 100% on board with that.
853. 00:36:59 Now the way he defines these,
854. 00:37:01 I don't know, I guess I could nitpick it.
855. 00:37:03 Like he talks about the parent-child relationship
856. 00:37:07 and how it's the child's task to do the homework.
857. 00:37:14 I can tell you, like that example
858. 00:37:19 is it's for me right now, like it's real, you know?
859. 00:37:24 We have our classical conversations group
860. 00:37:27 that we're a part of, and so they work independently
861. 00:37:30 throughout the week, and we generally are,
862. 00:37:32 did you do this, did you do that?
863. 00:37:34 And so during the week, essentially, it is the child's task.
864. 00:37:38 But then on Tuesdays, when they meet in person,
865. 00:37:41 my wife is there, she's gonna be a director next year.
866. 00:37:45 So we don't wanna just send our kids to class,
867. 00:37:48 and well, if your teachers get mad at you,
868. 00:37:50 like, we'll deal with it.
869. 00:37:52 We wanna make sure they have their stuff together.
870. 00:37:55 And the night before, it's always a scramble.
871. 00:37:57 It's like, you gotta do this, you gotta do that.
872. 00:37:59 Like, why haven't you done this yet?
873. 00:38:01 So we fall into the trap that he's describing
874. 00:38:06 in the book here about assuming the task for the kids.
875. 00:38:11 And he talks about how there's like emotions
876. 00:38:14 that go with that, that's 100% real.
877. 00:38:17 It's 100% the situation that happens.
878. 00:38:19 I also don't think that we are willing to just disconnect
879. 00:38:23 from that and be like, oh yeah, well,
880. 00:38:24 whatever happens happens, our kids will figure it out
881. 00:38:26 eventually, like, we're not gonna do that.
882. 00:38:30 - Yeah, I was like, so if you were on the Zoom call,
883. 00:38:34 I'm like, flagging Mike, 'cause it's like,
884. 00:38:35 I'm in such the same situation here,
885. 00:38:37 I'm reading this thinking to myself,
886. 00:38:39 well, hold on, hold on, right?
887. 00:38:41 Like, I can't just completely, you know,
888. 00:38:44 I'm gonna say, shirk my responsibility as a parent,
889. 00:38:47 because that's my child's task, right?
890. 00:38:49 Like, oh, my child's task is to study,
891. 00:38:51 or my child's task is to work on piano lessons
892. 00:38:54 or whatever it is.
893. 00:38:55 It's like, oh, but isn't there some level
894. 00:38:58 of like, my task is to encourage my child to go
895. 00:39:01 and do that thing, or my task is to hold my child accountable?
896. 00:39:04 Now, I can't fault the fact of what you just said,
897. 00:39:08 or I can't like, refute the fact of what you just said.
898. 00:39:11 It causes interpersonal relationship problems, right?
899. 00:39:14 So I say, hey guys, have you practiced the piano this week?
900. 00:39:18 And they say, no, and I say,
901. 00:39:20 you should probably practice the piano
902. 00:39:22 before your lesson, and they say, but we don't want to,
903. 00:39:24 and I say, yeah, but we're paying good money
904. 00:39:26 for those lessons, and they say, yeah,
905. 00:39:28 but we don't want to, and they're right there.
906. 00:39:30 We got an interpersonal relationship problem.
907. 00:39:31 Is it because I'm invading their task,
908. 00:39:35 or how does he word it?
909. 00:39:36 I'm intruding in their task, yes,
910. 00:39:39 but they're also not doing their task.
911. 00:39:42 So this is one of those areas where I don't know,
912. 00:39:44 like, I don't know how to resolve this.
913. 00:39:46 Like, I don't know what my brain thinks
914. 00:39:47 is the right answer to this section.
915. 00:39:50 - Well, that's the weakest argument, I think,
916. 00:39:54 in this section, and maybe even the whole book,
917. 00:39:56 because I struggle to envision a world where,
918. 00:40:03 and honestly, I don't want to be involved in a community
919. 00:40:06 where that's tolerated, you know,
920. 00:40:08 that the kids can just do whatever the heck they want.
921. 00:40:11 They're kids, their brains aren't fully developed.
922. 00:40:14 They can't make right choices.
923. 00:40:15 Your job as a parent is to help them navigate this
924. 00:40:19 and set them up for success.
925. 00:40:20 There is a point where you do have to let them go
926. 00:40:23 and make their own choices.
927. 00:40:24 So I think you can extrapolate this further,
928. 00:40:29 and you do have to get to the point
929. 00:40:31 that he's talking about, but when they're young, yeah,
930. 00:40:35 they're not making their own choices, I'm sorry.
931. 00:40:37 Otherwise, we'd have pizza and ice cream for dinner
932. 00:40:39 every single day, and he probably could refute
933. 00:40:43 some of this, you know, if we had a conversation,
934. 00:40:46 but that's the part where I was kind of like,
935. 00:40:48 yeah, I don't really like this.
936. 00:40:50 However, the general idea, I think, is really powerful,
937. 00:40:53 and is it possible that I air too much
938. 00:40:58 on taking on other people's tasks 100%,
939. 00:41:02 that's one of my action items,
940. 00:41:03 is I want to start asking, who's task is this?
941. 00:41:06 - Yeah, yeah.
942. 00:41:06 - I think that's really powerful, just in identifying,
943. 00:41:08 because there are a lot of situations
944. 00:41:11 where maybe there's social pressure,
945. 00:41:14 maybe it's legitimate and it's real,
946. 00:41:17 maybe it's manufactured, maybe it's all in my head,
947. 00:41:20 but people have these expectations of me,
948. 00:41:23 I really hate letting people down,
949. 00:41:25 so I tend to, if I say I'm gonna do something,
950. 00:41:29 I'll kill myself to get it done, you know?
951. 00:41:32 Come hell or high water, I'm gonna do what I said
952. 00:41:34 I was going to do, and I recognize, you know,
953. 00:41:37 part of that is, I want to be known as a person
954. 00:41:39 of integrity, and that's fine,
955. 00:41:41 that's self-inflicted, I guess, you could say,
956. 00:41:44 but there are other times when, you know,
957. 00:41:46 people just impose something on me,
958. 00:41:49 I didn't ask for it, and there's just,
959. 00:41:52 this communicated expectation,
960. 00:41:54 and I have to fight the urge to just say yes
961. 00:41:56 to all that stuff.
962. 00:41:58 I am a recovering people pleaser,
963. 00:42:00 so I know how difficult that can be to be like,
964. 00:42:03 "No, I'm not gonna do that."
965. 00:42:05 And I think that's really, you know,
966. 00:42:07 what he's getting at the heart of this
967. 00:42:09 is that what other people think of your choices
968. 00:42:11 is not your tasks, and it's impossible to please everyone,
969. 00:42:15 you gotta decide for yourself,
970. 00:42:16 where you're gonna draw those lines.
971. 00:42:19 And he says, "A proof of freedom is that you are disliked
972. 00:42:22 "by other people."
973. 00:42:24 I think all of that is true,
974. 00:42:27 and then it kind of culminates with the very last thing
975. 00:42:30 that I jotted down from this section,
976. 00:42:31 the only person you can change is you.
977. 00:42:33 (laughs)
978. 00:42:34 - Yeah, exactly.
979. 00:42:34 - So don't try to make everybody else,
980. 00:42:37 spend to your whims, just do what's right.
981. 00:42:41 - I think when he states who ultimately
982. 00:42:43 is going to receive the result brought on
983. 00:42:45 by the choice that is made.
984. 00:42:46 Like, so that's how you determine how you separate tasks.
985. 00:42:48 Like, who's gonna receive the result by that?
986. 00:42:50 So if we take it from the parent-child situation,
987. 00:42:52 we take it to a boss-subordinate situation,
988. 00:42:55 I think this becomes a lot more practical in my life.
989. 00:43:00 Like, okay, so boss comes to me and boss says,
990. 00:43:03 "I want you to do X."
991. 00:43:05 And I think about, okay,
992. 00:43:06 who's gonna receive the result from that?
993. 00:43:08 And I'm gonna tell you, there's a lot more freedom
994. 00:43:11 and a lot more happiness.
995. 00:43:12 If I go, you know what, that's yours, that's not mine, right?
996. 00:43:15 Like, and instead of me taking on that burden
997. 00:43:18 that is the boss's burden,
998. 00:43:20 'cause they're gonna receive the result from that,
999. 00:43:21 I go, you know what, this actually isn't.
1000. 00:43:24 Do I think that's actually reasonable
1001. 00:43:26 in all situations?
1002. 00:43:27 No, I don't, like, I don't think I can do that.
1003. 00:43:30 Or if I do that, I'm not gonna have a job.
1004. 00:43:32 Like, at some point, my boss is gonna go,
1005. 00:43:35 you know what, you did it one too many times
1006. 00:43:37 and we're gonna let you go.
1007. 00:43:39 So, do I get ultimate freedom?
1008. 00:43:41 Yeah, I get ultimate freedom,
1009. 00:43:43 but I also suffer the consequence of that.
1010. 00:43:47 He has a really interesting example here
1011. 00:43:52 about Alexander the Great and the Gordian Knot,
1012. 00:43:54 and basically everybody comes and tries to untie the knot,
1013. 00:43:57 nobody can untie the knot.
1014. 00:43:58 Now, Alexander the Great comes in and just goes,
1015. 00:43:59 and he slices through it and he's like,
1016. 00:44:01 "Hey, it's done."
1017. 00:44:02 You all tried to do it this way, I just cut the knot,
1018. 00:44:06 I just cut it now.
1019. 00:44:08 And that's what he recommends you do,
1020. 00:44:09 is you don't try to manipulate or get in there
1021. 00:44:13 and actually do anything.
1022. 00:44:14 You just cut it and you say, "This is not my task,"
1023. 00:44:16 and that establishes freedom and happiness for this.
1024. 00:44:20 So, are you good to move on to Night 4?
1025. 00:44:22 Yep.
1026. 00:44:23 All right, so Night 4, where the center of the world is?
1027. 00:44:27 All right, so in Night 4, we bring into this idea
1028. 00:44:32 of community and the idea that we're somewhat centered
1029. 00:44:37 on ourselves, and therefore, if we're centered
1030. 00:44:39 on the community, they go and start using the word comrad,
1031. 00:44:44 which I had to go look up what the word comrad actually meant.
1032. 00:44:49 And it's this idea of people who are in alignment with you
1033. 00:44:54 and they're in this fight together with you kind of a thing.
1034. 00:44:58 And we wanna make a switch from an attachment to self
1035. 00:45:01 or self-interest to a concern for the social interest.
1036. 00:45:05 Now, I don't know if you read it this way, Mike,
1037. 00:45:07 and I'm not gonna say there's any judgment right here.
1038. 00:45:10 This felt very communist, socialist,
1039. 00:45:14 kind of like, I don't know the right words to say
1040. 00:45:16 because I don't study that well enough.
1041. 00:45:19 But I was like, "Oh, okay, this is getting into that,
1042. 00:45:21 that idea of the time of more of like,
1043. 00:45:24 I guess it would be socialist more than communist."
1044. 00:45:26 But it's like, this socialist idea of like,
1045. 00:45:28 put the good of all above the good of yourself.
1046. 00:45:32 - Well, to defend your use of the word communism,
1047. 00:45:35 I mean, they just talk about comrades.
1048. 00:45:36 So that's what I thought of as like Soviet Union.
1049. 00:45:40 - But at the time that he would have been developing
1050. 00:45:43 these things, that was a common ideology or philosophy
1051. 00:45:48 that was working through the world at that time.
1052. 00:45:52 So I got that feel here.
1053. 00:45:56 What else, we're gonna listen to the voice of the larger community.
1054. 00:46:00 He gets into this idea of get out of the need
1055. 00:46:04 for somebody to tell you good job,
1056. 00:46:06 instead just tell them thank you, right?
1057. 00:46:08 Or you stop telling people good job
1058. 00:46:10 because what it does, it puts you
1059. 00:46:11 in this place of authority over somebody.
1060. 00:46:13 Oh, like, Mike, if I tell you that you did a good job today
1061. 00:46:16 on the podcast, I'm saying I have the power
1062. 00:46:18 to tell you that you did a good job.
1063. 00:46:21 When really I should say thank you for your effort.
1064. 00:46:23 And I feel funny about that because I think encouragement
1065. 00:46:27 is good, like I think to say, Mike,
1066. 00:46:29 you did a really good job with the podcast today.
1067. 00:46:31 I'm not trying to be superior over you.
1068. 00:46:32 I'm just trying to tell you that I think you did a good job.
1069. 00:46:34 - So let's, I wanna come back to the communist social thing,
1070. 00:46:37 but let's unpack that a little bit
1071. 00:46:39 because I actually, I agree with you.
1072. 00:46:43 It feels weird, especially as a parent
1073. 00:46:45 communicating to your kids.
1074. 00:46:47 However, have you read Mindset by Carol Dweck?
1075. 00:46:51 - I have, yes.
1076. 00:46:52 I mean, that's kind of what she talks about is like,
1077. 00:46:54 you don't wanna tell your kids you're really good at this
1078. 00:46:58 because then it just enforces this fixed mindset.
1079. 00:47:01 And then the minute that they encounter a challenge
1080. 00:47:04 where they're not able to do it,
1081. 00:47:05 or if they're viewing it as a competition,
1082. 00:47:08 which is a theme throughout this whole book,
1083. 00:47:11 they get to the college level
1084. 00:47:13 and they've been really good at sports
1085. 00:47:15 in their tiny little community.
1086. 00:47:16 And now there's a whole bunch of people
1087. 00:47:18 who are better than them.
1088. 00:47:19 They have this identity crisis
1089. 00:47:21 and they don't know how to navigate through it.
1090. 00:47:23 So I think there is some truth to that.
1091. 00:47:26 I don't think, I think the word encouragement
1092. 00:47:28 is actually what they would advocate for,
1093. 00:47:32 and probably Adler would advocate for too,
1094. 00:47:33 but how it's done.
1095. 00:47:35 So maybe, I'm just kind of role-playing live here,
1096. 00:47:39 instead of saying, you did a really good job
1097. 00:47:42 on the podcast today, Corey.
1098. 00:47:44 It would be, I like how you did this.
1099. 00:47:47 So there's still some positive reinforcement
1100. 00:47:50 that comes from it,
1101. 00:47:51 but it's not the good versus bad value judgment applied
1102. 00:47:57 to the action that you took, if that makes sense.
1103. 00:48:00 - It does, it makes complete sense.
1104. 00:48:02 - Yeah.
1105. 00:48:03 Now, the other thing here with the community,
1106. 00:48:06 I think I agree with you,
1107. 00:48:08 where it kind of creates some,
1108. 00:48:13 the words that they use,
1109. 00:48:16 it kind of implies that picture,
1110. 00:48:18 but I don't think that's actually
1111. 00:48:19 what they're saying here.
1112. 00:48:22 Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know.
1113. 00:48:23 But they talk about the community feeling
1114. 00:48:25 and having the interest in the society.
1115. 00:48:28 They do talk about how you are part of a community,
1116. 00:48:30 but you're not the center of it.
1117. 00:48:32 And I actually think there's a helpful element
1118. 00:48:35 of truth with that.
1119. 00:48:37 So, for example, we're involved in a church community.
1120. 00:48:44 My wife and I are elders at our church.
1121. 00:48:47 If you're viewing it through vertical relationships,
1122. 00:48:51 we have an element of authority.
1123. 00:48:54 I think it probably is more so in like title
1124. 00:48:58 than anything practical.
1125. 00:49:02 And there's like another interesting aspect of this
1126. 00:49:05 with like John Maxwell and the five levels of leadership
1127. 00:49:08 because the higher you go up the levels of leadership,
1128. 00:49:10 the more you are a servant,
1129. 00:49:12 the less it's about you.
1130. 00:49:14 So, I was thinking of that when he's talking about
1131. 00:49:17 these vertical versus horizontal relationships.
1132. 00:49:21 I feel like if you're gonna take John Maxwell's model
1133. 00:49:24 and you're gonna try to climb that ladder,
1134. 00:49:26 it becomes less and less about you,
1135. 00:49:28 more and more about the people that you are serving.
1136. 00:49:31 So, even though on paper,
1137. 00:49:32 maybe it looks like a vertical relationship in practice,
1138. 00:49:36 at least when everything is clicking,
1139. 00:49:38 it's more horizontal than anything else.
1140. 00:49:41 So, I think what they're really encouraging us to do here
1141. 00:49:44 is to embrace horizontal relationships.
1142. 00:49:46 Again, it feels weird when you use the example
1143. 00:49:49 of a parent child because there is an element of that.
1144. 00:49:54 We're both humans, but for the time being,
1145. 00:49:57 Susie, two year old, I am responsible for you
1146. 00:50:01 and I am going to be making your decisions
1147. 00:50:03 in order to keep you alive to the point
1148. 00:50:06 where you can make your own.
1149. 00:50:08 - Okay, so I have to ask you this one, right?
1150. 00:50:09 So, there's a quote in here, a comment here,
1151. 00:50:12 that vertical relationships, the goal of a vertical relationship
1152. 00:50:15 is to manipulate someone.
1153. 00:50:18 All right, now I think about this
1154. 00:50:19 with parent-child relationship.
1155. 00:50:20 Okay, I have a vertical relationship with my child,
1156. 00:50:25 which I think inherently is the natural stance, right?
1157. 00:50:28 A vertical relationship with your child
1158. 00:50:30 and I say, good job cleaning up the living room.
1159. 00:50:35 Am I trying to manipulate my child
1160. 00:50:36 to continue to clean up the living room
1161. 00:50:38 or to continue to clean up after themselves?
1162. 00:50:40 I can't say no, right?
1163. 00:50:42 Like, yes, like I'm in trying to encourage the good behavior
1164. 00:50:45 and I'm trying to rebuke the bad behavior.
1165. 00:50:47 Now, Adler would say, don't do that, right?
1166. 00:50:50 Like you would say like that, am I wrong in that?
1167. 00:50:54 - Well, I think on face value, you're right,
1168. 00:50:58 but I think in that instance, the community,
1169. 00:51:02 there's the smaller community, is the family, right?
1170. 00:51:05 So, one of the things we talk about in the life theme cohort
1171. 00:51:07 is family core values, like my wife and I got away
1172. 00:51:12 and we established the Schmidt's family core values,
1173. 00:51:15 our guiding principles, I wanted to call them
1174. 00:51:17 standard operating procedures, she wouldn't let me,
1175. 00:51:19 it's really like a company, it's like a community.
1176. 00:51:22 And so, you know, your kids aren't,
1177. 00:51:25 your employees per se, they're not gonna get up
1178. 00:51:29 and go to a different family
1179. 00:51:30 because they don't like the way that you're running things,
1180. 00:51:33 but I think there is a lot of parallel there.
1181. 00:51:36 Now, I think where it falls into vertical versus horizontal
1182. 00:51:42 is when you lean into the title of, well, I'm the parent,
1183. 00:51:46 right, so if you're, tell your kids,
1184. 00:51:49 you gotta clean up the living room, put your toys away
1185. 00:51:52 and they say why, the example, like where it clicks
1186. 00:51:55 in a vertical relationship, in my opinion,
1187. 00:51:57 is when you say, because I said so, right?
1188. 00:52:00 And Rachel and I try very hard not to do that.
1189. 00:52:04 - Yeah, I understand. - But I think that's where
1190. 00:52:07 the parent-child relationship is vertical
1191. 00:52:08 and then the rest of it, you know, where you're trying,
1192. 00:52:11 again, you can't just try to reason
1193. 00:52:13 with people all the time, but if you can fall back
1194. 00:52:15 on the community guidelines, like this is what our community,
1195. 00:52:21 this is what our family does, this is who we are,
1196. 00:52:24 that's more effective than just, well,
1197. 00:52:26 I'm the parent and I said so.
1198. 00:52:27 - Yeah, yeah.
1199. 00:52:28 All right, so there's a couple more things that I,
1200. 00:52:30 'cause this chapter, I don't know,
1201. 00:52:31 I resonated with this chapter a lot.
1202. 00:52:34 One of the things I disagree with
1203. 00:52:37 and, you know, I would have to study it more
1204. 00:52:39 to really understand, but one of the things I disagree with
1205. 00:52:41 is this idea of, even if you derive joy from being praised,
1206. 00:52:46 it is the same as being dependent on the vertical relationship
1207. 00:52:48 and acknowledging that you have no ability.
1208. 00:52:50 I don't think that's true at all.
1209. 00:52:52 Where like, I don't, I think if you tell me
1210. 00:52:55 that I did a good job on the podcast today,
1211. 00:52:57 I don't see that as you like, or me having no ability
1212. 00:53:02 and the only way I can survive is if you tell me
1213. 00:53:04 that I did a good job on the podcast today,
1214. 00:53:05 I see that as a way of you saying a nice thing to me
1215. 00:53:08 to like, encourage me, encourage me through this.
1216. 00:53:10 And he says, when receiving praise becomes one's goal.
1217. 00:53:13 Now that I'm okay with.
1218. 00:53:15 If my whole reason for doing a good job on the podcast
1219. 00:53:17 is because I want you to tell me I did a good job,
1220. 00:53:20 now we've got a problem.
1221. 00:53:22 But like, if that's, if that's not my nature, right?
1222. 00:53:25 I can understand that.
1223. 00:53:26 So I think about this at work, right?
1224. 00:53:28 Like somebody comes and they say like,
1225. 00:53:29 hey, I observed your class today, right?
1226. 00:53:31 Like you really did a good job doing XYZ, right?
1227. 00:53:33 You know, engaging the students in whatever way.
1228. 00:53:36 I don't think like, oh, I have no ability, right?
1229. 00:53:39 So therefore like, I need you to tell me that.
1230. 00:53:41 So it's like, I have a fundamental flaw
1231. 00:53:43 with something about this and the idea of praise
1232. 00:53:46 and the idea of this vertical relationship.
1233. 00:53:48 The second one, I really like this idea
1234. 00:53:53 of being useful to the community
1235. 00:53:56 and where worth comes from being useful to the community.
1236. 00:53:59 And I think if you allow community
1237. 00:54:01 to expand and contract as needed, right?
1238. 00:54:03 So I think this is a really, really good concept
1239. 00:54:07 that would help people project forward.
1240. 00:54:11 So therefore, like if I'm, you know,
1241. 00:54:14 if I'm in the, you know, the CCU world, right?
1242. 00:54:17 Like so I'm teaching or whatever.
1243. 00:54:19 When I stop having usefulness in the community,
1244. 00:54:21 man, it's really hard.
1245. 00:54:22 It would be really hard for me to engage.
1246. 00:54:24 Like it'd be really hard for me to keep myself worth
1247. 00:54:27 in that community and I'm gonna wanna naturally
1248. 00:54:29 lead away from that community or if I feel like
1249. 00:54:33 I come into the podcast and you're carrying the podcast
1250. 00:54:35 and I'm just here, you know, I'm dead weight, right?
1251. 00:54:38 It's probably not, I'm probably not gonna stay motivated
1252. 00:54:40 to stay with the podcast.
1253. 00:54:41 So I really like this idea of worth, right?
1254. 00:54:44 Like that your worth comes from this idea to have,
1255. 00:54:48 or this idea that you have usefulness in the community.
1256. 00:54:51 And I think you see this with people who retire, right?
1257. 00:54:55 And I think they might even bring this up in the book.
1258. 00:54:57 I can't remember if they use this example in the book or not.
1259. 00:55:00 But like people who retire and then they lack this usefulness
1260. 00:55:03 in community and if they don't find another way
1261. 00:55:06 to be useful in the community, I mean, they really struggle.
1262. 00:55:08 Like they really, really struggle.
1263. 00:55:10 - Yeah, so I wanna respond to both of those things.
1264. 00:55:14 Though the first part about the praise,
1265. 00:55:18 I think again, that comes back to growth versus fixed mindset.
1266. 00:55:23 The example that Carol Dweck uses in that book
1267. 00:55:26 of somebody who is kind of the poster child for a fixed mindset
1268. 00:55:30 is John McEnroe, I played tennis growing up,
1269. 00:55:33 I played college tennis.
1270. 00:55:34 So I know who that is that resonates with me.
1271. 00:55:36 He was a very successful tennis player.
1272. 00:55:39 What caused him to go crazy, 'cause he's kind of famous
1273. 00:55:42 for like trashing his rackets and throwing these fits,
1274. 00:55:45 you know, on the tennis court is when he started to lose.
1275. 00:55:48 When his identity as the best tennis player in the world
1276. 00:55:51 was threatened.
1277. 00:55:53 So as long as he was getting the feedback that he needed,
1278. 00:55:57 all good, you know, as long as you're getting praise
1279. 00:56:00 from the people who are important in your life, all good.
1280. 00:56:04 You know, it's a different flavor of that,
1281. 00:56:07 but I think it is dangerous.
1282. 00:56:09 So ideally, you know, we don't want what we do
1283. 00:56:14 to determine our own self-worth.
1284. 00:56:18 And then that kind of ties into like the whole idea
1285. 00:56:21 of being useful in the community.
1286. 00:56:23 And this is where it's easy to,
1287. 00:56:25 if you extrapolate that out,
1288. 00:56:27 you get the picture of a socialist society
1289. 00:56:30 where it's the good of everybody that matters,
1290. 00:56:33 not the individual.
1291. 00:56:35 I don't, that's not how I took away from this book.
1292. 00:56:38 Like, I don't know, maybe that's just me, you know,
1293. 00:56:40 reconciling this and figuring out
1294. 00:56:42 how I'm gonna apply this for myself,
1295. 00:56:43 'cause that's what I do with every book that I read.
1296. 00:56:45 But I think there's a lot of truth to,
1297. 00:56:48 it's not all about you and the minute that
1298. 00:56:53 you start looking for going back to the second mountain idea,
1299. 00:56:56 you know, who can I help?
1300. 00:56:58 That's where real joy and fulfillment comes.
1301. 00:57:02 It's not about what you can accomplish.
1302. 00:57:04 It's about how you can help launch other people
1303. 00:57:06 to greater levels of success and have a bigger impact
1304. 00:57:09 in the world that way.
1305. 00:57:10 So that's the big takeaway from me from this.
1306. 00:57:14 I do have another action item from this section,
1307. 00:57:18 which is to avoid comparison (laughs)
1308. 00:57:21 really easy to do.
1309. 00:57:23 You know, you were talking about comparing
1310. 00:57:25 the social media followers and things like that.
1311. 00:57:29 So that is the avenue my brain took
1312. 00:57:32 'cause I thought about this as like imposter syndrome.
1313. 00:57:35 I did that.
1314. 00:57:36 I compared myself to other people that I look up to
1315. 00:57:37 as creators and I was like, well, they do a really good job.
1316. 00:57:40 I'll never be able to get to that level Y even try.
1317. 00:57:43 You know, but my advice to people now would be
1318. 00:57:47 just go make your thing.
1319. 00:57:48 I think we actually talked about that maybe a couple
1320. 00:57:51 of episodes ago and I was doing some free,
1321. 00:57:54 creative coaching with you in the Pro Show.
1322. 00:57:57 - Okay.
1323. 00:57:58 - It's like just because somebody else has made this thing
1324. 00:58:00 and you feel like that's a niche that you can address.
1325. 00:58:04 I'm wearing the shirt today, teach everything that you know.
1326. 00:58:06 Like I think there's value in that
1327. 00:58:07 and you're gonna say things in a way that other people
1328. 00:58:11 that you look up to aren't gonna be able to do.
1329. 00:58:12 You're gonna be able to reach people.
1330. 00:58:13 Your style is gonna be different.
1331. 00:58:15 You know, other people who are gonna listen to you
1332. 00:58:17 that wouldn't resonate the same way
1333. 00:58:20 if they just went to somebody else who you consider
1334. 00:58:23 to be further along in the journey.
1335. 00:58:27 But the thing that makes it worthwhile
1336. 00:58:29 just using that creator business, I guess,
1337. 00:58:37 there's a different term for it
1338. 00:58:39 for people who aren't full time, but just, you know,
1339. 00:58:41 personally, the reason I create is number one,
1340. 00:58:46 obviously, I want to make a living and support my family.
1341. 00:58:50 But the real reason that I do it, you know,
1342. 00:58:52 I could support my family lots of different ways.
1343. 00:58:55 The real reason that I do it ties back to the life theme,
1344. 00:58:57 I want to help people multiply their time and tell,
1345. 00:58:59 leave a bigger dent in the universe.
1346. 00:59:00 If I can help people get unstuck and actually make their thing
1347. 00:59:04 and release the creativity that's inside of them,
1348. 00:59:06 that is how I do that at scale, you know?
1349. 00:59:11 And I believe, at the end of my life,
1350. 00:59:14 and when I am able to see, you know,
1351. 00:59:17 all the impact that I was able to have,
1352. 00:59:21 that's gonna be the most rewarding thing
1353. 00:59:24 that I could possibly imagine.
1354. 00:59:26 Because you don't see the fruit of that a lot of times.
1355. 00:59:28 You sow the seeds, but, you know, it's still,
1356. 00:59:33 again, maybe a bad analogy, because credited to your account?
1357. 00:59:36 I don't know.
1358. 00:59:37 Like, I choose to believe that at some point,
1359. 00:59:40 I'm gonna be able to see everybody's life that I impacted
1360. 00:59:42 and what sort of impact that ripple effects
1361. 00:59:44 that was able to have on people.
1362. 00:59:47 And that's exciting to me.
1363. 00:59:48 That's what gets me up in the morning.
1364. 00:59:50 Not, you know, go sell a few more life HQs.
1365. 00:59:53 - Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
1366. 00:59:55 That makes do it a sense.
1367. 00:59:57 - All right, are we ready to move on to the fifth night?
1368. 00:59:59 - Let's do it.
1369. 01:00:00 - All right, to the fifth night,
1370. 01:00:02 there's a lot that they cover in the fifth night, right?
1371. 01:00:04 So we can think about it as, you know,
1372. 01:00:06 we had to build up all these sub principles
1373. 01:00:09 that way we could get to the fifth night
1374. 01:00:10 and kind of, you know, hit that last little, that little oomph.
1375. 01:00:14 So there's this idea of understanding the eye,
1376. 01:00:19 then figuring out the one-on-one relationships
1377. 01:00:22 that you and me, and then figuring out
1378. 01:00:24 the larger community relationship
1379. 01:00:26 and where you establish in that.
1380. 01:00:28 There's a big thing about trust and confidence
1381. 01:00:30 that I think is a really interesting section
1382. 01:00:33 that, based on your smirk,
1383. 01:00:34 I think we're gonna end up talking about at some point.
1384. 01:00:37 But I wanna get into this,
1385. 01:00:39 the essence of work for the contribution
1386. 01:00:41 to the common good, right, too.
1387. 01:00:42 They lay out some steps in this essence of work.
1388. 01:00:45 Accept yourself as you are,
1389. 01:00:46 place unconditional confidence in other people,
1390. 01:00:50 contribute to the community,
1391. 01:00:51 contribution to the community is necessary,
1392. 01:00:53 and then work in labor is not about making money,
1393. 01:00:55 it's about making contribution,
1394. 01:00:56 it's about being useful to others,
1395. 01:00:58 and it's about self-worth.
1396. 01:01:00 Now, I think this is good,
1397. 01:01:02 like I like this framework.
1398. 01:01:03 So, accept yourself who you are as you are,
1399. 01:01:07 doesn't mean don't try to get better.
1400. 01:01:11 It just means if I'm not a sprinter,
1401. 01:01:14 like if I'm not a world-class sprinter
1402. 01:01:16 because my body is not made to be a world-class sprinter,
1403. 01:01:20 okay, great.
1404. 01:01:21 Does that mean I can't get better at sprinting?
1405. 01:01:22 No, it just means I'm not built
1406. 01:01:24 to be a world-class sprinter, that's fine.
1407. 01:01:26 So, I like that a lot, like I like that idea a lot.
1408. 01:01:28 Now, number two.
1409. 01:01:30 Oh, Mike, place unconditional confidence in other people.
1410. 01:01:35 Woo, place unconditional confidence in other people.
1411. 01:01:38 And here's where I'm at is like,
1412. 01:01:39 I would love to be able to do this.
1413. 01:01:41 I would love the place unconditional confidence
1414. 01:01:43 in other people.
1415. 01:01:44 But here's the key.
1416. 01:01:46 Trust comes with a set of conditions.
1417. 01:01:49 Confidence does not have any conditions
1418. 01:01:50 when believing in others.
1419. 01:01:53 So, the key idea between trust and confidence
1420. 01:01:55 that he calls out here.
1421. 01:01:56 So, one of the things I like about this book
1422. 01:01:58 is the youth, I see myself in the youth
1423. 01:02:02 talking to this philosopher, right?
1424. 01:02:04 Like, so, there are times when the youth brings up a thing
1425. 01:02:06 and I'm like, yeah, youth, you go, like, give it,
1426. 01:02:09 give it to him, right?
1427. 01:02:11 And then he responds.
1428. 01:02:13 What do you think about unconditional confidence
1429. 01:02:15 in other people?
1430. 01:02:16 Like, how do you resonate with that?
1431. 01:02:18 Do you agree with that?
1432. 01:02:20 - Oh, man, that's hard.
1433. 01:02:23 I agree with it in principle.
1434. 01:02:26 Because I feel like I have been shown
1435. 01:02:29 unconditional confidence at different points
1436. 01:02:32 to other people, what does that mean?
1437. 01:02:35 It means that people believe in me enough
1438. 01:02:39 to put me in positions where I can do something
1439. 01:02:44 maybe even before I'm ready,
1440. 01:02:45 but it's also kind of a process that gets me ready.
1441. 01:02:49 Like, one of the stories that comes to mind with this,
1442. 01:02:54 my pastor has told me multiple times
1443. 01:02:57 is that when he was first starting out,
1444. 01:03:00 he was going to a church and his pastor had him
1445. 01:03:03 preach at a service.
1446. 01:03:05 And after he gets done, goes in the back room
1447. 01:03:09 and his pastor tells him, well, you struck out this time,
1448. 01:03:13 but that's okay, we'll get you back up to bat, right?
1449. 01:03:16 If you're gonna develop people,
1450. 01:03:18 you have to have that sort of attitude where it's like,
1451. 01:03:21 well, maybe you're not gonna do it perfect,
1452. 01:03:24 but I see something in you,
1453. 01:03:26 so I'm gonna give you an opportunity.
1454. 01:03:28 And even if you don't nail it right away,
1455. 01:03:32 I'll create other opportunities because I believe in you.
1456. 01:03:35 Now, you can't do that with everybody.
1457. 01:03:39 Just like physics, I guess,
1458. 01:03:42 time that you're able to invest in someone,
1459. 01:03:44 you gotta, there's only so many relationships
1460. 01:03:46 that you can sew into, so maybe you have to pick and choose
1461. 01:03:52 the people that you're gonna have unconditional trust in,
1462. 01:03:56 but I think the idea is essential for personal development
1463. 01:04:02 and just talking to, like,
1464. 01:04:03 come back to the child parent thing again.
1465. 01:04:06 You know, your kids are gonna mess up,
1466. 01:04:07 but you still want them, I think it's inherent
1467. 01:04:11 for every parent, they want their kids to go further
1468. 01:04:13 and to do more than they did.
1469. 01:04:17 And if that's gonna happen, you can't just be like,
1470. 01:04:19 well, no, you can't do that, you're not ready.
1471. 01:04:20 You can't do that, you're not ready.
1472. 01:04:21 You can't do that, you're not ready.
1473. 01:04:22 And then eventually, okay, I guess now you could do it.
1474. 01:04:24 Like, you set them up in situations
1475. 01:04:29 where they can get the experience that they need
1476. 01:04:32 to become proficient and excellent
1477. 01:04:34 in whatever it is that they're trying to do.
1478. 01:04:36 And where if they fail, it's not going to be fatal.
1479. 01:04:42 You know, you want them to be able to make the mistakes
1480. 01:04:44 and learn from them when the stakes are low.
1481. 01:04:49 So I feel like that's the perspective here,
1482. 01:04:50 and I don't know how to reconcile that necessarily
1483. 01:04:52 with blanket unconditional trust in humanity,
1484. 01:04:55 but I don't know, like, I agree with that.
1485. 01:04:58 I think maybe the way it gets applied
1486. 01:05:00 is very situation dependent
1487. 01:05:03 and the specifics are missing from this conversation,
1488. 01:05:06 but-
1489. 01:05:07 - And I don't know if it was a slip, right?
1490. 01:05:09 Or if it's just the nature of this topic is being tricky.
1491. 01:05:12 He would not say unconditional trust.
1492. 01:05:15 He would say unconditional confidence.
1493. 01:05:17 So-
1494. 01:05:18 - Sure, yeah, you're right.
1495. 01:05:19 - Okay, so it's like, but I don't know
1496. 01:05:21 if I can like pull that out now.
1497. 01:05:23 I think about unconditional trust.
1498. 01:05:24 It's easier for me to understand as an engineer.
1499. 01:05:26 I have, or I want to have unconditional trust
1500. 01:05:29 that the bridge will stay up, right?
1501. 01:05:31 The set of conditions is the bridge doesn't fall down, right?
1502. 01:05:35 Like I want to have unconditional trust in that situation
1503. 01:05:38 'cause the conditions are necessary in that situation.
1504. 01:05:40 Unconditional confidence that like,
1505. 01:05:45 so there's no conditions in believing in others.
1506. 01:05:49 And where this goes, everybody is like,
1507. 01:05:51 it goes to the idea of like,
1508. 01:05:52 well, aren't people going to take advantage of you then?
1509. 01:05:54 Right, so if I have unconditional confidence in Mike
1510. 01:05:57 that Mike's going to do something,
1511. 01:05:58 doesn't he have the ability to take advantage of me?
1512. 01:05:59 Yes, he does.
1513. 01:06:01 And like, that's kind of, the hand is waived
1514. 01:06:03 and it's like, yep, he can take advantage of you.
1515. 01:06:05 And what we'll say is that like,
1516. 01:06:07 you need to have the courage
1517. 01:06:09 so we get back to this idea of courage.
1518. 01:06:10 You have to have the courage
1519. 01:06:11 that when you place unconditional confidence in somebody
1520. 01:06:13 and that member of the community,
1521. 01:06:15 they're not going to take advantage of you.
1522. 01:06:16 And that's why, you know,
1523. 01:06:18 you need to have courage in this situation.
1524. 01:06:20 But it's an interesting concept.
1525. 01:06:22 Like we could probably talk about this for a lot longer,
1526. 01:06:24 but we should probably move on to other ideas in the book.
1527. 01:06:29 Yeah, well, that's kind of the big one, I think.
1528. 01:06:33 I guess the other one that's kind of tied to that
1529. 01:06:36 because if you have complete confidence in others,
1530. 01:06:41 whether they succeed or fail
1531. 01:06:44 is not going to impact your value.
1532. 01:06:50 So you're not threatened by somebody's failure
1533. 01:06:54 and you're also not bettered by somebody's success.
1534. 01:06:59 Yeah, and that's their task.
1535. 01:07:00 So that makes sense, it ties back into the task thing, yeah.
1536. 01:07:03 Exactly.
1537. 01:07:04 And then the other big thing here
1538. 01:07:05 is just the sense of happiness
1539. 01:07:08 and how that comes from living earnestly in the here and now,
1540. 01:07:13 which that is probably not a whole big conversation
1541. 01:07:17 required around that.
1542. 01:07:18 It's pretty simple, but it's not easy.
1543. 01:07:22 Yep.
1544. 01:07:23 So that's my other action item,
1545. 01:07:24 is to live earnestly in the here and now.
1546. 01:07:26 What does that look like?
1547. 01:07:27 I have no idea.
1548. 01:07:28 Well, and let me, because I like this point too, right?
1549. 01:07:30 So he describes the idea of this Energia.
1550. 01:07:33 Am I saying it right?
1551. 01:07:34 Do you think Energia?
1552. 01:07:35 I think so, yeah.
1553. 01:07:35 It's a kind of movement in which what is now forming
1554. 01:07:39 is what has been formed.
1555. 01:07:41 Or the better way to say it, the easier way to understand it is,
1556. 01:07:43 the process is the outcome, right?
1557. 01:07:46 Which we've talked about this in a bunch of different ways.
1558. 01:07:48 You said a bunch of different words.
1559. 01:07:49 It's like, yes, I have a north star.
1560. 01:07:51 Yes, I have a map that I'm shooting to.
1561. 01:07:53 The video game analogy that you like to use, right?
1562. 01:07:56 I have a place that I'm going, but my enjoyment
1563. 01:07:58 of the video game is the getting there, right?
1564. 01:08:01 Yeah, I can then enjoy when I'm there as well,
1565. 01:08:03 but the enjoyment of the game is trying to get to that place.
1566. 01:08:07 And when we put our emphasis on the right now--
1567. 01:08:09 so I really like this idea of the here and now.
1568. 01:08:11 And I really like this idea of live in the moment,
1569. 01:08:14 but not in a futile way of nothing else matters.
1570. 01:08:17 Like, it's more of like live in the moment,
1571. 01:08:19 because so often we just think about getting that degree
1572. 01:08:23 or achieving that milestone or whatever it is.
1573. 01:08:26 And this gets into your thing that you talk about all the time
1574. 01:08:30 in all the different ways, habits, not goals, right?
1575. 01:08:33 Like develop habits, because then you focus on the here and now.
1576. 01:08:36 So again, you can hear me as I talk about this.
1577. 01:08:41 There are aspects of this book that I was like,
1578. 01:08:43 I don't agree with that.
1579. 01:08:44 There are aspects of this book that I'm like, yeah, I'm in.
1580. 01:08:46 Like, that makes total sense.
1581. 01:08:47 And then there are ones that I'm on the fence with more.
1582. 01:08:51 Yeah.
1583. 01:08:51 So the habits versus goals, that's exactly it.
1584. 01:08:54 I don't know if that's the wrong way to describe this.
1585. 01:08:57 Maybe I'm doing a disservice by using that framing,
1586. 01:09:00 but that's where my brain goes.
1587. 01:09:01 And it's exactly how you describe.
1588. 01:09:05 Like, I think the most appropriate way to approach this
1589. 01:09:08 is with the North Star.
1590. 01:09:09 This is the direction that we're headed.
1591. 01:09:10 And then from there, it's just focus on the next step.
1592. 01:09:14 So that live earnestly in the here and now.
1593. 01:09:16 That's still something that I struggle with.
1594. 01:09:18 Progress never happens fast enough.
1595. 01:09:20 It's easy.
1596. 01:09:21 And I probably slip into it every single day.
1597. 01:09:23 The whole idea of the gap versus the gain,
1598. 01:09:26 where the gap is triggered by those goals.
1599. 01:09:30 I want to achieve this outcome by this time.
1600. 01:09:34 And then when it doesn't happen as fast as you think it should
1601. 01:09:37 or it's harder or you take a detour, you get frustrated.
1602. 01:09:40 And I should be further than I am.
1603. 01:09:41 And you start to judge yourself.
1604. 01:09:43 Whereas the gain is living in the here and now.
1605. 01:09:45 And then today, I'm going to show up and do the thing.
1606. 01:09:48 And oh, look.
1607. 01:09:49 I can see that's what I did yesterday.
1608. 01:09:51 That's what I did last week.
1609. 01:09:53 I've dropped these markers.
1610. 01:09:54 And I can see the progress that I'm making.
1611. 01:09:56 And that's exciting and motivating.
1612. 01:09:59 I never really anticipated the book, The Courage
1613. 01:10:03 to Be Dislike, especially after the introduction
1614. 01:10:05 and the framing of the book was going to end up there.
1615. 01:10:09 But I think it's a good encapsulation of the message.
1616. 01:10:13 Yeah, so I don't have much in terms of the afterward.
1617. 01:10:16 Like I think the afterward was pretty straightforward.
1618. 01:10:19 I didn't get a ton out of that.
1619. 01:10:20 Did you get anything out of the afterward?
1620. 01:10:22 No.
1621. 01:10:24 You kind of hit on it at the beginning.
1622. 01:10:26 It's a description by the two people who wrote it,
1623. 01:10:30 who I'm sure I'm going to mess up the names if I try to say them.
1624. 01:10:32 So I'm not even going to try.
1625. 01:10:34 The philosopher and the youth in their own experience.
1626. 01:10:38 And I think that's kind of cool.
1627. 01:10:41 I'm kind of curious why they waited until the afterward
1628. 01:10:44 to explain that.
1629. 01:10:46 But yeah, I jotted down nothing in my outline
1630. 01:10:52 as it pertains to the afterward.
1631. 01:10:54 But the actual content of the book
1632. 01:10:58 is all wrapped up by the fifth night.
1633. 01:11:01 Nice.
1634. 01:11:02 All right, so let's move on to action items from the book.
1635. 01:11:04 I have one action item out of this.
1636. 01:11:06 And I'm wanting your feedback on this action item.
1637. 01:11:11 Let's see.
1638. 01:11:11 I've intrigued what you think.
1639. 01:11:14 I want to apply these principles to something
1640. 01:11:16 that is manageable, or seems tangible.
1641. 01:11:21 Whereas if I try to apply it to my life,
1642. 01:11:22 I feel like that's too big.
1643. 01:11:23 And I'm immediately going to just be like, yeah, I'm out.
1644. 01:11:25 I'm not going to do that.
1645. 01:11:27 So I'm going to use these principles,
1646. 01:11:28 or I'm going to try to think about Adlerian principles,
1647. 01:11:31 or individual psychology.
1648. 01:11:33 And think about how I could use them
1649. 01:11:35 to help grow Bookworm's audience.
1650. 01:11:38 And it's not because I want Bookworm's audience
1651. 01:11:40 to be a big number for the sake of superiority or anything
1652. 01:11:43 like that, so I'm trying to already do this.
1653. 01:11:45 I think that we make a useful thing for the community.
1654. 01:11:50 And I want more people to get that useful thing.
1655. 01:11:53 So it's like, how do we get the concepts that we talk about
1656. 01:11:57 in these books, the idea of application to our life?
1657. 01:12:00 How do we get those out to more people?
1658. 01:12:02 And I don't know what that looks like.
1659. 01:12:04 I don't even know if this is appropriate,
1660. 01:12:05 but that is an action item or the action item
1661. 01:12:08 I'm going to have from this book.
1662. 01:12:11 - All right, well, I do think it's appropriate.
1663. 01:12:13 And this is the valid reason for using social media,
1664. 01:12:20 in my opinion.
1665. 01:12:22 Social media isn't about attracting a big audience
1666. 01:12:28 so you can sell them things.
1667. 01:12:30 But if you really believe in your product,
1668. 01:12:35 you are doing people a disservice if you never talk about it.
1669. 01:12:38 - Yep, yep, agreed.
1670. 01:12:39 - So yeah, cool.
1671. 01:12:42 Yeah, we can, I don't have anything right off top of my head
1672. 01:12:45 in terms of what that looks like,
1673. 01:12:48 but I support this action item.
1674. 01:12:55 - Thank you, okay, thank you, thank you.
1675. 01:12:57 - All right, so I've got three
1676. 01:12:59 and mine are very conceptual.
1677. 01:13:01 I went the opposite direction that you did.
1678. 01:13:03 - Okay.
1679. 01:13:04 - So start asking whose task is this really just
1680. 01:13:08 so I can disconnect from the,
1681. 01:13:10 I'm gonna assume, by the way,
1682. 01:13:12 that it's mostly inherent expectations
1683. 01:13:15 that I put on myself.
1684. 01:13:16 Like, I don't think anyone gets bent out of shape
1685. 01:13:17 if I say, no, I can't do that,
1686. 01:13:19 but I am a people pleaser by default.
1687. 01:13:22 So I tend to just be like, oh, yeah, yeah,
1688. 01:13:24 I'll squeeze that in, avoid comparison.
1689. 01:13:28 Even now, you know, when I'm focused on the things
1690. 01:13:31 that I'm making, I can break free from this a little bit,
1691. 01:13:34 but then the minute that I start doing research
1692. 01:13:37 or come across, you know, other videos
1693. 01:13:39 that other people have made,
1694. 01:13:40 I look at, you know, what they do, their camera set up,
1695. 01:13:43 their obsidian set up, whatever.
1696. 01:13:44 And I'm like, oh man, I'm just such an imposter.
1697. 01:13:48 So gotta break free from that.
1698. 01:13:51 And then last one, live earnestly in the here and now.
1699. 01:13:53 And this is, people are probably screaming
1700. 01:13:56 at their podcast player right now saying,
1701. 01:13:58 Mike, this is the whole reason
1702. 01:13:59 for mindfulness meditation, you idiot.
1703. 01:14:01 And yeah, you're right.
1704. 01:14:04 So I'm not saying that I never do this.
1705. 01:14:06 I'm not saying that mindfulness meditation
1706. 01:14:08 would not help me more with this,
1707. 01:14:11 but I recognize that there are times
1708. 01:14:13 when I slip out of this and, you know,
1709. 01:14:17 I'm looking forward and just,
1710. 01:14:19 I'm naturally sort of looking for the next thing to do.
1711. 01:14:24 The next thing on the calendar, the next obligation.
1712. 01:14:28 And I don't like that.
1713. 01:14:30 So I wanna try to break free from that a little bit.
1714. 01:14:33 Maybe that means I'm gonna try meditation yet again.
1715. 01:14:37 I don't know.
1716. 01:14:38 But yeah, live earnestly in the here and now.
1717. 01:14:40 - Hey, that sounds like a, that's the goal.
1718. 01:14:41 - That sounds like a challenge, Mike.
1719. 01:14:43 That sounds like a challenge.
1720. 01:14:43 You should take on the mindfulness meditation challenge.
1721. 01:14:47 - Not right now.
1722. 01:14:49 I will at some point.
1723. 01:14:51 I know it's a matter of time
1724. 01:14:52 until it actually clicks for me.
1725. 01:14:55 I just, 'cause it keeps coming up.
1726. 01:14:57 I keep coming back to it.
1727. 01:14:59 I just have not found the place for it
1728. 01:15:04 or the right method.
1729. 01:15:06 I don't know, like I get it.
1730. 01:15:08 It's simple.
1731. 01:15:09 All you do is you focus on the breath, but yeah.
1732. 01:15:13 I just haven't found the right configuration yet.
1733. 01:15:16 That's my belief anyways.
1734. 01:15:18 - Well, if you need an accountability partner
1735. 01:15:21 who is also your podcast co-host,
1736. 01:15:23 and I don't mean David Sparks, let me know.
1737. 01:15:26 (laughs)
1738. 01:15:28 All right, so let's move on to style and rating.
1739. 01:15:31 It is my book, so I get to go first.
1740. 01:15:34 So the style of the book was creative, I thought.
1741. 01:15:39 Like I thought it was a unique take on the book.
1742. 01:15:42 I thought it could have gone really, really poorly
1743. 01:15:44 and been really boring or that could be done well.
1744. 01:15:48 And I think they leaned way more
1745. 01:15:50 to the side of it was done well, right?
1746. 01:15:51 Like I enjoyed the dialogue back and forth
1747. 01:15:55 with the caveat of something I said earlier
1748. 01:15:56 that I think at times it felt forced,
1749. 01:16:00 like what the youth was saying, not the philosopher.
1750. 01:16:02 The philosopher I thought was fine,
1751. 01:16:03 but what the youth was saying sometimes I felt
1752. 01:16:05 was a little bit forced.
1753. 01:16:07 So that's my only issue with kind of the style
1754. 01:16:10 and the way it was written back and forth.
1755. 01:16:12 I actually think they did a really good job
1756. 01:16:14 taking dry psychology ideas.
1757. 01:16:17 And if anybody's a psychologist out there
1758. 01:16:19 and thought like, oh my gosh, psychology, you know,
1759. 01:16:21 like I think it can be a little bit harder to read
1760. 01:16:24 and a little bit drier and a little more abstract, right?
1761. 01:16:25 You have to think through these abstract ideas.
1762. 01:16:28 I thought they did a good job actually taking those
1763. 01:16:30 and wrapping those in examples
1764. 01:16:32 and making them more meaningful
1765. 01:16:33 to somebody who doesn't have a very strong psychology background
1766. 01:16:37 or in especially a very strong individual psychology background.
1767. 01:16:41 So I really, really like that.
1768. 01:16:43 I think when it comes to the actual content of the book,
1769. 01:16:47 you're gonna like this or you're not gonna like this
1770. 01:16:50 depending on how much you want to think about psychology
1771. 01:16:54 and you want to think about the way you think.
1772. 01:16:56 So it's like, if you come into this book
1773. 01:16:58 and you're like, I don't care about psychology,
1774. 01:16:59 I don't care about individual psychology,
1775. 01:17:01 I don't care about like really thinking kind of meta
1776. 01:17:04 about the way I think about the world
1777. 01:17:05 and the way I think about myself
1778. 01:17:07 and my relationship with other people in society
1779. 01:17:10 and that I think you're not gonna enjoy this book at all.
1780. 01:17:13 Like the dialogue might catch you
1781. 01:17:14 and you might find it fun at times,
1782. 01:17:17 but like I don't think you're gonna like power through
1783. 01:17:19 all 50 sub chapters, you're gonna get bored
1784. 01:17:22 and you're gonna end up putting it down.
1785. 01:17:24 So if I'm rating this for I guess both myself
1786. 01:17:28 and the bookworm audience,
1787. 01:17:30 I'd probably give this book a three based on the idea
1788. 01:17:34 that like it's very niche, it's very targeted.
1789. 01:17:38 I don't give it a three in terms of I didn't get anything
1790. 01:17:41 out of it.
1791. 01:17:41 I actually think this is one of those books
1792. 01:17:42 that you and I talk about every so often
1793. 01:17:44 that's like, I'm gonna think about this book for years.
1794. 01:17:48 There's gonna be something that happens
1795. 01:17:49 and I'm gonna be like, oh,
1796. 01:17:51 the courage to be disliked, right?
1797. 01:17:52 They talked about that like Adlerian psychology
1798. 01:17:54 talks about that, right?
1799. 01:17:55 Like I think this is one of those ones that's gonna recur.
1800. 01:17:57 So I think this will have a lasting value,
1801. 01:18:00 but I think it was kind of just a middle of the road,
1802. 01:18:03 you know, type book.
1803. 01:18:04 I don't think it was exceptional
1804. 01:18:05 and I don't think it was terrible.
1805. 01:18:07 Kind of a middle of the road type book.
1806. 01:18:08 So Mike, how about you?
1807. 01:18:10 (Mike laughs)
1808. 01:18:11 - I'm gonna meet you at the three.
1809. 01:18:14 So I actually enjoyed this book more than I thought I would
1810. 01:18:19 and there's a couple of things specifically though
1811. 01:18:23 that I make it harder for me to recommend.
1812. 01:18:29 So number one, if you're interested in these ideas,
1813. 01:18:34 I would recommend you go straight to the source.
1814. 01:18:36 This is almost like no one's gonna like reading this.
1815. 01:18:40 So we're gonna make a more palatable version.
1816. 01:18:43 It's like, no one wants to read the textbooks
1817. 01:18:48 so they make a kids book, you know, sort of a thing.
1818. 01:18:51 You get the same ideas.
1819. 01:18:53 Example of this is Ray Dalio's principles.
1820. 01:18:57 It's like 400 pages.
1821. 01:18:58 I really enjoyed it.
1822. 01:18:59 There's a ton of stuff in there,
1823. 01:19:00 but it's too much.
1824. 01:19:01 So he made a much shorter like principles for kids,
1825. 01:19:04 essentially.
1826. 01:19:05 It's like a watered down version of it.
1827. 01:19:07 That's what I feel this is for Adlerian psychology.
1828. 01:19:10 That's a, hopefully I said it right.
1829. 01:19:13 - I think you did.
1830. 01:19:14 - Okay.
1831. 01:19:15 So if you're interested in the topic,
1832. 01:19:17 there's probably other things that are gonna be better for you.
1833. 01:19:22 Was this an easy, fun, entertaining read
1834. 01:19:25 that introduced you to some of these ideas?
1835. 01:19:27 Yeah.
1836. 01:19:28 But like unless you're picking this one up off of Amazon
1837. 01:19:31 because I don't know what to read next
1838. 01:19:33 and I want something a little bit different
1839. 01:19:35 that's gonna be kind of fun, I would ask you,
1840. 01:19:38 what do you really wanna learn about?
1841. 01:19:39 What are you really curious about?
1842. 01:19:41 And then let's pick something that's gonna go
1843. 01:19:42 a little bit, a little bit deeper.
1844. 01:19:45 And that is not to say that this is a bad book.
1845. 01:19:48 You know, I think there are some episodes
1846. 01:19:52 where I probably sound very negative
1847. 01:19:59 or I'm like picking things apart
1848. 01:20:00 as we're working through the book
1849. 01:20:03 and then we get to the Stalin rating
1850. 01:20:04 and I'm like, oh, I was four star book
1851. 01:20:05 and you're like, oh my gosh, that's so much higher
1852. 01:20:07 than I thought you were gonna rate it.
1853. 01:20:08 This was sort of the opposite of that.
1854. 01:20:10 Like I really enjoyed the conversation
1855. 01:20:13 and the podcast I feel like was really cool
1856. 01:20:17 but overall the book, I'm kind of like meh.
1857. 01:20:21 Yeah, I get it.
1858. 01:20:22 Now, how can I reconcile, you know,
1859. 01:20:25 this is my approach with this
1860. 01:20:26 when I talked about Patrick Lencioni's fables
1861. 01:20:29 'cause isn't that kind of the same thing?
1862. 01:20:30 I think it is.
1863. 01:20:32 The difference here, I feel, is who is the audience
1864. 01:20:39 for this type of book?
1865. 01:20:41 It's an individual.
1866. 01:20:42 You're not buying this for your entire team.
1867. 01:20:47 Whereas with some of those business principles,
1868. 01:20:50 I feel like there's so much baggage
1869. 01:20:54 that goes into the whole, like I'm the boss
1870. 01:20:57 and you're the employees
1871. 01:20:59 and I know people who have bought Patrick Lencioni's books,
1872. 01:21:02 you know, and they've given it to their teams,
1873. 01:21:03 like here, this is gonna fix all your problems,
1874. 01:21:05 like you can't do that either.
1875. 01:21:07 But there's so much complexity
1876. 01:21:09 when you're talking about the interpersonal relationship
1877. 01:21:12 dynamics of a team like that
1878. 01:21:16 where wrapping it in a form where it's easier to digest
1879. 01:21:21 means that people who are lower on the corporate ladder
1880. 01:21:25 who would have no interest in these business topics
1881. 01:21:28 means that maybe they'll find it palatable
1882. 01:21:31 and then the stuff in there
1883. 01:21:32 is actually going to improve their day to day.
1884. 01:21:35 You know, I don't feel like there's a real clear
1885. 01:21:38 use case like that for this particular kind of book
1886. 01:21:43 and this book specifically.
1887. 01:21:45 So, I don't know, if you're looking for an introduction
1888. 01:21:49 to this Edwardian psychology
1889. 01:21:51 and you like the format, you know, it's an interesting format.
1890. 01:21:55 We haven't read a whole lot of books like this.
1891. 01:21:58 I feel like it's not, you know, it would be entertaining
1892. 01:22:02 and I think anybody who picks this up
1893. 01:22:04 is gonna get something out of it.
1894. 01:22:05 It's not gonna be a waste of anybody's time
1895. 01:22:09 and then by any means.
1896. 01:22:11 But also, you know, I don't think there's a whole bunch
1897. 01:22:17 of, this book isn't gonna be life-changing.
1898. 01:22:21 - I agree.
1899. 01:22:21 - It may open some loops to some other books
1900. 01:22:24 that will be life-changing,
1901. 01:22:26 but this one in and of itself is, it's good.
1902. 01:22:31 - It's good, right?
1903. 01:22:31 Like that's our three, right?
1904. 01:22:32 It's good.
1905. 01:22:33 - Yeah, all right, so let's put the courage to be disliked
1906. 01:22:36 on the shelf, Mike, you have the next book
1907. 01:22:39 and this was a poll on the social medias.
1908. 01:22:43 Mike, what is our next book?
1909. 01:22:45 - It was that ended exactly in a tie.
1910. 01:22:47 - It did.
1911. 01:22:49 - So, I'm just gonna pick one.
1912. 01:22:51 It is Make It Stick by, there's a couple of authors here.
1913. 01:22:57 Let's see, it's Peter Brown is the first author listed.
1914. 01:23:03 Then Henry Rotiger and Mark McDaniel.
1915. 01:23:07 I actually can't stand it when there's multiple authors
1916. 01:23:11 listed for a book, but you know, that is what it is.
1917. 01:23:15 The international bestseller that teaches the science
1918. 01:23:17 of successful learning.
1919. 01:23:19 We've gotten some recommendations inside of the library
1920. 01:23:23 from people whose opinion on books, I respect.
1921. 01:23:27 And so this is the best book they ever read
1922. 01:23:30 on the topic of learning.
1923. 01:23:32 I know you picked, learned like a pro back in the day
1924. 01:23:34 because you were interested in this.
1925. 01:23:36 Wasn't a huge fan of that book.
1926. 01:23:38 Hopefully this one will be awesome.
1927. 01:23:42 - Good, good, good.
1928. 01:23:43 So then my book is next.
1929. 01:23:44 This book comes from a recommendation from Mark Levison.
1930. 01:23:48 This one is called Catalyst.
1931. 01:23:51 So we're gonna read Catalyst,
1932. 01:23:52 how to change anyone's mind.
1933. 01:23:55 It's by Jonah Berger.
1934. 01:24:00 That'll be the book after.
1935. 01:24:02 So if you're looking at that.
1936. 01:24:04 But then the other thing I wanna throw out here
1937. 01:24:06 before we get into get books is
1938. 01:24:08 you're gonna see some links in the show notes.
1939. 01:24:10 And I'm gonna take the responsibility of doing this.
1940. 01:24:15 If you go to any one of those links
1941. 01:24:16 and you give us a recommendation,
1942. 01:24:18 like I think it'd be fun to see what the audience
1943. 01:24:20 wants us to read and what they would want us to pick.
1944. 01:24:23 So I can't guarantee we're not gonna promise
1945. 01:24:25 like Mike and I still get to do the final vetting
1946. 01:24:28 of the book.
1947. 01:24:29 But at the same time, I think it'll be fun
1948. 01:24:31 to get some audience feedback on
1949. 01:24:33 kind of what books you're interested in,
1950. 01:24:34 what books you're excited about us reading
1951. 01:24:37 and talking through.
1952. 01:24:40 So look for those in those links
1953. 01:24:43 and those places to add feedback in the show notes.
1954. 01:24:46 And I will go through and call all those recommendations
1955. 01:24:48 and we'll start a kind of a running document
1956. 01:24:50 on book recommendations from the audience.
1957. 01:24:53 All right, Mike, do you have any gap books?
1958. 01:24:55 - I have a book that I am hoping to read as a gap book.
1959. 01:24:58 I'm not gonna commit to any sort of gap books at this point.
1960. 01:25:02 But I was listening to the Kale Newport podcast recently
1961. 01:25:06 and he mentioned David Brooks,
1962. 01:25:09 who is kind of a colleague, I believe,
1963. 01:25:12 for I forget what service he writes for.
1964. 01:25:17 It's gonna see the Atlantic, but that's not it.
1965. 01:25:19 The New Yorker, that's what it is, the New Yorker.
1966. 01:25:21 So he knows David Brooks, David Brooks,
1967. 01:25:23 the second mountain guy.
1968. 01:25:25 And he made the comment that if you wanted
1969. 01:25:29 to go straight to the source,
1970. 01:25:30 the book that the second mountain was inspired by
1971. 01:25:34 is a book called Falling Upward.
1972. 01:25:36 So this is by Richard Rohr with a forward by Brene Brown.
1973. 01:25:41 And this one is explicitly spiritual,
1974. 01:25:44 so a spirituality for the two halves of life.
1975. 01:25:47 But when he mentioned that this was kind of the source
1976. 01:25:50 for the second mountain,
1977. 01:25:51 I knew I needed to pick this one up.
1978. 01:25:53 So this one just came, and I'll probably bring this one
1979. 01:25:55 on vacation with me in a few weeks.
1980. 01:25:59 - That's the ending.
1981. 01:26:00 I'm cheating on mine.
1982. 01:26:01 I'm almost through with this book.
1983. 01:26:03 This book is tied to the day job
1984. 01:26:06 in terms of a grant that I'm working on
1985. 01:26:08 and thinking about work and how work ties in
1986. 01:26:11 with the Christian world and the kingdom of God.
1987. 01:26:14 So this one's called The Sacredness of Secular Work
1988. 01:26:16 by Jordan Rader.
1989. 01:26:17 And I'm almost done with this one,
1990. 01:26:19 but I'm gonna still count it as a gap book
1991. 01:26:21 for this period of time.
1992. 01:26:23 - That works.
1993. 01:26:25 - All right, Mike, we did another one.
1994. 01:26:28 So as a reminder, put the courage to be disliked on the shelf,
1995. 01:26:31 pick up Make It Stick by Peter Brown and Mark McDaniel.
1996. 01:26:35 If you wanna hear more of what we do,
1997. 01:26:38 we do a pro show.
1998. 01:26:39 And in the pro show today, we talked about challenges.
1999. 01:26:42 So I asked Mike if he likes to do any kind of challenges,
2000. 01:26:45 whether they be mental challenges or physical challenges
2001. 01:26:47 or anything like that.
2002. 01:26:48 And then I talked about some of the challenges
2003. 01:26:50 that I do just as a way to kind of form new habits,
2004. 01:26:54 form different habits or to kind of progress forward
2005. 01:26:58 kind of at a rail.
2006. 01:26:59 So if you're interested in that,
2007. 01:27:01 you can also get the bootleg,
2008. 01:27:03 which the bootleg today was a ton of fun
2009. 01:27:05 with Mike trying to troubleshoot
2010. 01:27:07 why my stinkin' microphone was so quiet.
2011. 01:27:10 And I'm very, very grateful and I'm very thankful
2012. 01:27:13 that he was kind during that process.
2013. 01:27:15 So that's great for Mike.
2014. 01:27:16 - If you want 15 minutes of audio troubleshooting,
2015. 01:27:18 check out the video.
2016. 01:27:19 (laughs)
2017. 01:27:20 So talk about inferiority, but anyhow, moving on.
2018. 01:27:24 So if you want the bootleg, if you want the pro show,
2019. 01:27:28 if you want an ad-free version of the show,
2020. 01:27:31 we've got a bookworm wallpaper.
2021. 01:27:33 Now, if you're interested in those type of things,
2022. 01:27:34 you can go to patreon.com/bookwormfm.
2023. 01:27:38 It's $7 a month and for those of you who already signed up,
2024. 01:27:40 we really, really appreciate you.
2025. 01:27:41 It really, really helps with just the production
2026. 01:27:43 and the podcast and we're grateful to you.
2027. 01:27:46 So pick up Make It Stick by Peter Brown and Mark McDaniel
2028. 01:27:50 and we'll talk to you next time.