241: Intentional by Chris Bailey

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1. 00:00:00 OK, so the time has come to talk about intentional.
2. 00:00:03 We should first follow up with action items.
3. 00:00:06 Oh, wait, we don't have any action items.
4. 00:00:09 Yes.
5. 00:00:10 I guess I could ask you yet again if you have any sort of decision
6. 00:00:15 regarding crafting commerce.
7. 00:00:17 The decision is like 95% now.
8. 00:00:21 So I'm hoping it changes, but it's probably going to be now.
9. 00:00:25 I have a question for you before we
10. 00:00:28 be launching to this since we don't have action items today.
11. 00:00:30 Are you willing to?
12. 00:00:33 You are friends with Chris Bailey.
13. 00:00:35 Correct?
14. 00:00:36 I am.
15. 00:00:37 OK.
16. 00:00:38 We're going to talk about Chris Bailey's book.
17. 00:00:42 Is there a conflict of interest here?
18. 00:00:44 Right, and I don't mean this in a serious way.
19. 00:00:45 I mean this in like a--
20. 00:00:48 we talked about a little bit last show that it's like,
21. 00:00:52 I'm going to give you my honest opinion.
22. 00:00:54 And my question is, though, is like,
23. 00:00:57 were you involved in the writing of this book?
24. 00:00:59 Did he send you a pre-copy and ask you to edit it?
25. 00:01:02 Did he proof it or anything like that?
26. 00:01:04 Like, I just want to know, like, what's the context?
27. 00:01:06 What's the background between you and Chris on this book?
28. 00:01:08 I was not involved in this book.
29. 00:01:11 I helped edit his course, which is sort of tied
30. 00:01:18 to the same topic as the book.
31. 00:01:21 So I guess you could say I had a sneak preview of the book
32. 00:01:25 when I was editing those videos this summer.
33. 00:01:27 And he did send me an advanced copy.
34. 00:01:30 We interviewed him and published an episode for Focus.
35. 00:01:36 So David and I both read the book before we talked to him.
36. 00:01:38 I intentionally didn't listen to that
37. 00:01:40 before we had our conversation because I didn't want to be biased
38. 00:01:43 before I did the show.
39. 00:01:45 OK, so let me just share a little bit about me.
40. 00:01:50 If I were to get on that episode with David
41. 00:01:57 and talk to Chris and David is gushing about this book,
42. 00:02:01 I would not be able to hide my disdain for it
43. 00:02:04 if I did not like it.
44. 00:02:06 I didn't struggle with that.
45. 00:02:09 But there absolutely is conflict of interest here
46. 00:02:12 if you want to frame it that way.
47. 00:02:15 That's where the question came from.
48. 00:02:17 I was like, well, listen, he's your friend.
49. 00:02:18 You know him, you know, like all this stuff.
50. 00:02:21 And I was more like, there are some things
51. 00:02:24 that I'm going to be critical about.
52. 00:02:26 Sure.
53. 00:02:27 And I'm really asking the question as like Mike and Corey
54. 00:02:31 are friends and we do a show together.
55. 00:02:32 And I didn't want to inadvertently step on your toes
56. 00:02:36 too strongly on the show.
57. 00:02:39 I will step on your toes.
58. 00:02:40 I don't have any problem doing that.
59. 00:02:41 Like, that's OK, that's life.
60. 00:02:43 But I didn't want to like smash anything on the show,
61. 00:02:46 like live on the show.
62. 00:02:47 So no, go stomp on him.
63. 00:02:48 That's fine.
64. 00:02:49 OK, OK, cool.
65. 00:02:50 Thank you for giving us that disclaimer.
66. 00:02:52 Yeah, so the way I got to be friends with Chris is I read
67. 00:02:58 his first book, The Productivity Project.
68. 00:03:01 And I really liked it.
69. 00:03:02 There was something he said in that book that
70. 00:03:04 has stuck with me for many years.
71. 00:03:06 He said that people are the reason for productivity.
72. 00:03:10 So you don't need to be efficient with your relationships.
73. 00:03:15 You can go ahead and try and be efficient
74. 00:03:17 with your tasks and your projects.
75. 00:03:19 You can get done what you need to get done at work
76. 00:03:21 and then go spend time with the people that matter most to you.
77. 00:03:24 I read Hyper Focus after that and loved it.
78. 00:03:28 At the time, I think I was--
79. 00:03:31 the first time I actually had an interaction with Chris
80. 00:03:34 was when I reached out to him and asked him
81. 00:03:35 if he wanted to talk about his writing process for the book
82. 00:03:38 worm episode that we recorded on that.
83. 00:03:40 So if you look at-- I think it's episode 65, maybe,
84. 00:03:43 or something like that.
85. 00:03:44 It's Hyper Focus by and with Chris Bailey or something
86. 00:03:48 like that.
87. 00:03:49 And that's because after the show, he spent 25 minutes
88. 00:03:52 nerding out about clicky keyboards
89. 00:03:54 and how he wrote the entire book in text edit.
90. 00:03:58 That's awesome.
91. 00:03:59 Yeah.
92. 00:04:00 Since then, I met him, I think, originally at a relay show
93. 00:04:07 in Chicago.
94. 00:04:08 So there must have been like a live Mac power
95. 00:04:12 users or something that was at the Cards Against Humanity
96. 00:04:14 Theater.
97. 00:04:15 And David was there if it was a live Mac power users, obviously.
98. 00:04:20 And I drove down because Chicago was close.
99. 00:04:23 I remember Chris flew in because he's a big Mac nerd.
100. 00:04:26 And he, David, and I got lunch along with David's daughter
101. 00:04:31 at-- what's that chicken place, Nando's?
102. 00:04:35 Mm, I don't know.
103. 00:04:36 I don't know if she's going to--
104. 00:04:37 Yes, I'm pretty sure it's Nando's.
105. 00:04:39 And then hung out with Chris the rest of the day.
106. 00:04:42 We went to Intelligentsia and had coffee,
107. 00:04:46 and just a really cool dude.
108. 00:04:49 And since then, I've just become closer friends with him.
109. 00:04:54 He's part of my small group, Mastermind,
110. 00:04:57 and then helped him with the video project prior to this book.
111. 00:05:04 All that to say, though, I would like
112. 00:05:06 to think that if I had issues with something in this book,
113. 00:05:11 I would have no problem calling them out.
114. 00:05:14 I think you would.
115. 00:05:15 Yeah.
116. 00:05:16 I actually, in the library, have been talking to people
117. 00:05:20 because Ward is actually in the library.
118. 00:05:21 And he reads a lot, and I know he's
119. 00:05:23 a big fan of Chris Bailey's and just the books that he's read
120. 00:05:28 and listens to his podcast, stuff like that.
121. 00:05:30 And he was the one asking me about this book prior to it
122. 00:05:36 being released, and I was like, well, I think it's good,
123. 00:05:38 but I can't wait for you to get it and let me know what you
124. 00:05:41 think.
125. 00:05:41 And he's like, oh, yeah, this is his best book.
126. 00:05:44 So I have at least external evidence
127. 00:05:47 that I'm not alone in loving this book.
128. 00:05:49 But yeah, teach their own.
129. 00:05:51 That's what makes the podcast fun.
130. 00:05:53 And I haven't read his other two.
131. 00:05:55 So this is the first introduction to Chris Bailey for me.
132. 00:05:59 I have a problem.
133. 00:06:00 I'm sorry, the other three.
134. 00:06:01 He's got another one, How to Call Me Your Mind,
135. 00:06:03 which is also pretty good, not about meditation.
136. 00:06:06 Like I thought it was going to be.
137. 00:06:07 It's more just, how do you actually focus?
138. 00:06:11 He also has an audible book, which
139. 00:06:14 is the closest I have gotten to getting a mindfulness
140. 00:06:16 meditation routine to stick.
141. 00:06:19 And that is, shoot, what's it called?
142. 00:06:24 How to train your mind, maybe?
143. 00:06:27 It's all about mindfulness meditation
144. 00:06:30 and just controlling your attention as zero religious,
145. 00:06:35 Buddhist, whatever background to it.
146. 00:06:39 And he actually in the audible, because it
147. 00:06:41 is an audible original, so it's not an actual book.
148. 00:06:43 It's an audio book.
149. 00:06:45 And sprinkled in there, he guides you
150. 00:06:47 through different mindfulness meditations,
151. 00:06:50 kind of like they would in the headspace app
152. 00:06:52 or calm, something like that, which
153. 00:06:54 was, I thought, a pretty cool, pretty cool project
154. 00:06:57 and a good use of the medium.
155. 00:06:59 Yeah, yeah, that's awesome.
156. 00:07:00 I didn't know he had those two.
157. 00:07:03 I knew about hyper-focus, and then
158. 00:07:04 I knew about his original one, which I'm forgetting
159. 00:07:07 the title of right now.
160. 00:07:08 Productivity project.
161. 00:07:09 Yeah.
162. 00:07:10 Well, good, good, good.
163. 00:07:12 Thanks for giving us a disclaimer,
164. 00:07:13 because I didn't know your connection to him, so.
165. 00:07:17 Yeah, he's just a cool dude.
166. 00:07:19 And I will say, I take very seriously the responsibility,
167. 00:07:26 I'll say, of recommending a book or a product.
168. 00:07:30 I've done a couple sponsored videos for the YouTube channel,
169. 00:07:34 but I get pitches every single day.
170. 00:07:35 And I only do a couple of them because I
171. 00:07:37 want to know that I believe in the product before I would
172. 00:07:40 put my face on it.
173. 00:07:42 So do with that what you will.
174. 00:07:46 Yeah, anything else you want to talk about before we get
175. 00:07:48 into the book itself?
176. 00:07:49 Nope, I'm ready to rock.
177. 00:07:52 All right, so as you probably figured out by now,
178. 00:07:57 today's book is intentional by Chris Bailey.
179. 00:08:01 Now, do you have the orange version of this?
180. 00:08:06 Come on, Mike, I have the--
181. 00:08:08 Oh, you have a digital one, don't you?
182. 00:08:10 Come on.
183. 00:08:11 Digital.
184. 00:08:12 Always, that's always the answer.
185. 00:08:15 All right, that's true.
186. 00:08:16 OK, so you have no idea what the color of the cover is.
187. 00:08:19 Well, I mean, I do because I screenshot the picture
188. 00:08:22 and put it on the YouTube channel.
189. 00:08:24 Nice, OK, so there he shared with me
190. 00:08:29 the different cover designs.
191. 00:08:31 And the US cover is this orange one with the circle.
192. 00:08:35 The Canadian cover has like a gradient
193. 00:08:38 and it has like a little paper plane
194. 00:08:40 that's zipping across the page.
195. 00:08:42 I actually think that--
196. 00:08:44 I think I like the orange one better overall,
197. 00:08:47 but I really like the color of the Canadian cover.
198. 00:08:50 If you can find that one, it's pretty cool.
199. 00:08:53 A little bit different font, the American one
200. 00:08:55 is very bold in your face.
201. 00:08:57 But yeah, it's called intentional subtitle,
202. 00:08:59 how to finish what you start.
203. 00:09:02 What a great subtitle.
204. 00:09:05 It's a hook.
205. 00:09:06 It is definitely a hook.
206. 00:09:09 This book has no sections, just eight chapters
207. 00:09:15 plus a chapter zero, and then a conclusion.
208. 00:09:18 Never seen a chapter zero before.
209. 00:09:20 I've never had either.
210. 00:09:21 I was intrigued by the chapter zero.
211. 00:09:24 Yeah.
212. 00:09:26 And yeah, I guess one thing you should
213. 00:09:28 know about the book before we get into it
214. 00:09:31 is that Chris has an affinity for research.
215. 00:09:37 So I actually didn't look at the bibliography
216. 00:09:41 in the back of this yet.
217. 00:09:42 But I'm assuming there's a whole bunch of stuff there
218. 00:09:44 because what he does for fun, since his wife is a university
219. 00:09:49 professor, is he gets access to the--
220. 00:09:53 when I was in college, it was Jay Store.
221. 00:09:54 I don't even know what it is anymore,
222. 00:09:56 like all the academic papers.
223. 00:09:57 And he just reads them for fun.
224. 00:10:01 And then he looks for something that's interesting.
225. 00:10:04 And he's like, oh, I'll research that more and write
226. 00:10:07 a book about it.
227. 00:10:08 That's a special kind of human right there.
228. 00:10:11 That is a special kind of human.
229. 00:10:12 But the access to the journals is a big deal actually.
230. 00:10:18 I mean, those subscriptions and the way they do those,
231. 00:10:21 if you can get access to those, it's a really, really big deal.
232. 00:10:25 So that's pretty cool.
233. 00:10:26 Yeah, so what he does is he reads those.
234. 00:10:29 He writes the books.
235. 00:10:30 And then kind of what gets lost, I think,
236. 00:10:33 in the shuffle when you are reading the book
237. 00:10:35 is all the research that he's done.
238. 00:10:38 Because he kind of is poking fun out of himself
239. 00:10:41 in his vices throughout the book.
240. 00:10:44 So you maybe have a general sense of gurus
241. 00:10:50 who write these productivity books
242. 00:10:53 that they've got it all together.
243. 00:10:55 And that's definitely not the vibe you get
244. 00:10:57 when you read a Chris Bailey book.
245. 00:10:58 Even though he has written all these books,
246. 00:11:03 and many of them are bestsellers, he gave a TED talk
247. 00:11:08 when he did the productivity projects
248. 00:11:10 in several TED talks since then, like a big TED talk, not TEDx.
249. 00:11:14 And Ted called him at one point
250. 00:11:18 the most productive man you'd ever hope to meet,
251. 00:11:21 which is, I think, the coolest line you could have
252. 00:11:25 in your biography ever.
253. 00:11:28 Especially if you're a productivity person,
254. 00:11:30 which he claims himself to be, right?
255. 00:11:32 So yeah, that's the thing.
256. 00:11:35 I don't know that Chris would make that proclamation.
257. 00:11:39 But lots of people make it about him.
258. 00:11:42 And he goes with it, so I guess you could say he does.
259. 00:11:46 But he's not some big, pretentious,
260. 00:11:53 you have to pay me $275 an hour
261. 00:11:56 because that's my going rate.
262. 00:11:58 He's just one of the most authentic, intentional,
263. 00:12:02 kind humans you will come across.
264. 00:12:05 - Can we talk about his authenticity?
265. 00:12:07 - Because he starts the book being authentic
266. 00:12:10 with his quick AI statement,
267. 00:12:12 which I don't know if you wanted to talk about
268. 00:12:14 his quick AI statement or not.
269. 00:12:15 But he comes right out and says,
270. 00:12:18 we're in a different world, AI is a thing.
271. 00:12:21 Let me tell you how AI was used to make this book.
272. 00:12:24 And I'm gonna tell you Mike, I love this.
273. 00:12:26 I absolutely love it because you don't have to think about it.
274. 00:12:29 He just told you, and to summarize it,
275. 00:12:32 it's the rightful place that AI should have
276. 00:12:34 in our workflows is it should do the drudgery, not the art.
277. 00:12:37 And I was like, I completely could not agree with you more.
278. 00:12:41 This is what I'm trying to teach my students at CCU.
279. 00:12:43 There are things that AI is really good at
280. 00:12:46 that we don't like to do.
281. 00:12:48 And it doesn't really add a lot of value to the design
282. 00:12:51 or the solution, it just needs to be done.
283. 00:12:54 So let's kick that off to the AI tool or the LLM
284. 00:12:58 and just let it run and let it go.
285. 00:13:00 And I loved, loved, loved that he started the book
286. 00:13:05 with this little quick statement.
287. 00:13:07 Wasn't very long, super effective for me.
288. 00:13:10 - I forgot about that.
289. 00:13:11 Yeah, thanks for calling that out.
290. 00:13:14 I remember conversations that he, David and I have had
291. 00:13:19 regarding the role of AI.
292. 00:13:22 And I think I probably am a little bit more on the,
293. 00:13:29 let's use it more frequently in the process
294. 00:13:32 of making the art than either Chris or David would be.
295. 00:13:36 But I think Chris is the one who has thought through this
296. 00:13:42 the most and that has rubbed off on both David and I.
297. 00:13:46 Basically everybody who he talks to about this,
298. 00:13:48 you can just tell, he's put a lot of thought into this
299. 00:13:51 before arriving at this conclusion.
300. 00:13:53 And so everybody else is kind of figuring it out.
301. 00:13:55 They're like, oh yeah, that's a, that makes sense.
302. 00:13:57 I think I'll do that.
303. 00:13:59 - Yeah, yeah, I liked it a lot.
304. 00:14:02 So good way to start the book, Chris.
305. 00:14:04 - Sweet.
306. 00:14:04 All right, I guess we'll start with chapter zero,
307. 00:14:08 first chapter zero in the history of bookworm probably.
308. 00:14:11 Illusive goals.
309. 00:14:13 And this is kind of like an introduction.
310. 00:14:17 But a couple of things that I jotted down from this section,
311. 00:14:19 the wind up matters, but the follow through matters more.
312. 00:14:23 And I have golfed.
313. 00:14:27 I don't consider myself a golfer,
314. 00:14:29 but that's kind of the analogy he uses here
315. 00:14:31 at the beginning.
316. 00:14:32 Are you a golfer, Corey?
317. 00:14:33 - I have golfed.
318. 00:14:34 I took a golf class at Penn State.
319. 00:14:36 Yes, that is correct.
320. 00:14:37 I took a golf class in college.
321. 00:14:40 And, but I don't golf very much.
322. 00:14:43 It's, it's, it takes too much time.
323. 00:14:44 I have too many kids and it takes too much time, so.
324. 00:14:46 - Okay, so this was actually one thing
325. 00:14:48 that I was curious about is for non-golfers,
326. 00:14:51 which is me and it sounds like it's you also.
327. 00:14:54 - Absolutely, absolutely.
328. 00:14:55 - Is this an effective way to start the book?
329. 00:14:59 Have you, have you ever golfed?
330. 00:15:01 - Yes.
331. 00:15:02 - Okay, I was going to say, if you've golfed at all,
332. 00:15:05 and you've ever hit a ball,
333. 00:15:06 or even gone to the driving range, I think it is.
334. 00:15:09 Because you can, you can definitely see a difference
335. 00:15:11 in the way the club strikes the ball
336. 00:15:13 and the way the ball flies off the club.
337. 00:15:15 My, I made a joke about the golf class here
338. 00:15:18 because I think it's ridiculous
339. 00:15:19 that I took a golf class in college.
340. 00:15:20 But I actually learned that the follow through really,
341. 00:15:25 really, really matters.
342. 00:15:27 And it really matters,
343. 00:15:28 especially when you're putting, right?
344. 00:15:29 Like it determines where the ball's going to go.
345. 00:15:31 So I had no issues.
346. 00:15:33 I thought it was effective.
347. 00:15:35 I think his point is spot on.
348. 00:15:37 And it might just be because, again,
349. 00:15:39 and I'm going to probably say this a lot this episode,
350. 00:15:42 he was talking directly to me.
351. 00:15:44 Like he was saying, Corey, you know, the wind up matters,
352. 00:15:49 but the follow through matters a lot more.
353. 00:15:52 And I was like, oh, Chris, you're killing me.
354. 00:15:55 Yeah, so I agree, you know, I've taken golf lessons.
355. 00:16:01 I don't, I'm still not a good golfer
356. 00:16:03 and then basically haven't golfed in the last 15, 20 years
357. 00:16:06 because it's expensive and time consuming.
358. 00:16:10 And it takes three and a half hours.
359. 00:16:11 Yeah, yeah.
360. 00:16:13 So it's not something that I really care to do.
361. 00:16:16 And I think the follow through point
362. 00:16:18 could be made many, many different ways.
363. 00:16:21 Like the follow through principle,
364. 00:16:22 I think applies in just about every sport.
365. 00:16:24 I grew up playing tennis, I played college tennis.
366. 00:16:27 Like follow through in tennis would be more,
367. 00:16:30 would resonate more with me because of that background.
368. 00:16:33 But that's what got me thinking.
369. 00:16:34 It's like you could take it with basketball or baseball
370. 00:16:37 or any of those other sports
371. 00:16:38 would that have been more effective than the golf story.
372. 00:16:43 But yeah, I think the point is made
373. 00:16:46 that the follow through matters.
374. 00:16:48 Maybe sports in general is the issue I have with this
375. 00:16:52 because I know a lot of people who that, what the heck,
376. 00:16:54 I don't know, you just hit the little ball, right?
377. 00:16:58 But again, like the point he's making
378. 00:17:00 about follow through being the more important part
379. 00:17:02 of the process, I think that part is great
380. 00:17:06 and is maybe, I don't wanna say completely original,
381. 00:17:11 but I don't think there's a lot of people
382. 00:17:12 in the productivity space putting an emphasis on that part.
383. 00:17:15 They're focusing on when the club hits the ball,
384. 00:17:19 doing the thing.
385. 00:17:20 And I really like, also in this section,
386. 00:17:24 how he talked about we are perfectly productive
387. 00:17:26 whenever we do what we set out to do.
388. 00:17:28 This is a point I've heard him make before.
389. 00:17:30 One of the podcasts that I interviewed him for,
390. 00:17:33 this was something he said,
391. 00:17:34 one of the very first episodes that I,
392. 00:17:37 first times I talked to him.
393. 00:17:38 He said something along the lines of,
394. 00:17:39 if you meant to watch Netflix for eight hours,
395. 00:17:43 then binging Netflix is the most productive thing you can do.
396. 00:17:46 It's when you don't mean to do that.
397. 00:17:48 When you have something else that you were going to do
398. 00:17:50 instead and then it stole your attention
399. 00:17:53 and your focus for that long,
400. 00:17:54 that's where the problem comes in.
401. 00:17:56 So that I think is really important for the rest of the book.
402. 00:18:00 And then also, he says to take the ideas that work for you
403. 00:18:03 and leave the rest.
404. 00:18:04 I agree with that 100%.
405. 00:18:06 It's kinda nice that somebody calls that out
406. 00:18:08 at the beginning of a book though.
407. 00:18:10 - Yeah, that goes to his authenticity,
408. 00:18:12 like you said before.
409. 00:18:14 The other one that I got out of this chapter
410. 00:18:16 is he really sets the stage for what it means to be intentional
411. 00:18:20 and what he means by intentional.
412. 00:18:22 Mental process that precedes our actual doing anything.
413. 00:18:26 And then one of the things,
414. 00:18:28 so you have a podcast called Intentional Family.
415. 00:18:31 - Yeah, well, Rachel does.
416. 00:18:33 I show up sometimes.
417. 00:18:34 - Okay, so you've got that.
418. 00:18:37 And then he talks about goals a lot, Mike.
419. 00:18:42 So my question for you is, are you okay?
420. 00:18:45 How are you doing?
421. 00:18:46 Are you good with the way he's using the words
422. 00:18:48 "intentional" in goals?
423. 00:18:50 - Yeah, so I am okay with the way he's using intentional.
424. 00:18:53 I think that's great.
425. 00:18:55 We'll get to the goals part.
426. 00:18:57 I think my criticism of standard goals still stands,
427. 00:19:02 but I also think he agrees with me.
428. 00:19:04 - Okay, I can see that.
429. 00:19:07 - Okay, are you ready to go to chapter one?
430. 00:19:10 - Yeah, I am.
431. 00:19:10 - Okay, so chapter one is the intention stack.
432. 00:19:14 This, I think, is brilliant.
433. 00:19:16 Okay, so this, if this was some other person
434. 00:19:20 writing this book, this would be buried
435. 00:19:22 about chapter four or five.
436. 00:19:24 And there would be a whole bunch of build up
437. 00:19:26 before the visual here.
438. 00:19:29 But this intention stack, I think, is a brilliant idea.
439. 00:19:34 And the basic premise here is that you have this funnel,
440. 00:19:40 right?
441. 00:19:41 And at the bottom, you have your present intention.
442. 00:19:44 As you go up the funnel and it gets wider,
443. 00:19:46 then you have your plans, your goals,
444. 00:19:48 your priorities, and your values.
445. 00:19:50 The values are the top part of the funnel.
446. 00:19:55 And essentially, that makes this a values-based
447. 00:20:00 productivity funnel.
448. 00:20:02 - Yes, it is.
449. 00:20:03 - So we are speaking the same language here.
450. 00:20:06 And this is, I think, a great way to visualize this,
451. 00:20:09 but this is also my jam.
452. 00:20:12 So what did you think of the intention stack?
453. 00:20:14 - Okay, I love everything about the content
454. 00:20:18 of the intention stack.
455. 00:20:20 I love everything that he says about present intention plans,
456. 00:20:23 goals, priorities, values.
457. 00:20:25 I love all of that stuff.
458. 00:20:26 I can't stand that he called it a stack.
459. 00:20:30 It's not a stack, Mike.
460. 00:20:31 It's a funnel, right?
461. 00:20:32 If you look at it, it's a funnel.
462. 00:20:34 You described it as a funnel.
463. 00:20:35 He describes it as a funnel.
464. 00:20:37 Like, it's a funnel.
465. 00:20:38 Why didn't we just call it the intention funnel?
466. 00:20:40 Could we please, I mean, the figure looks exactly
467. 00:20:44 like a funnel, right?
468. 00:20:45 - Like does.
469. 00:20:46 - So it just irks me probably more than it should.
470. 00:20:51 And I don't know why it bothers me as bad as it does.
471. 00:20:54 Had he simply changed the one word to funnel from stack?
472. 00:20:59 Like, I mean, find and replace all stack with funnel.
473. 00:21:04 I'm in, because, like, to your point,
474. 00:21:06 I like my, like, joking aside.
475. 00:21:08 I do wish you would have called it a funnel,
476. 00:21:11 'cause I think that just makes more sense visually
477. 00:21:13 and with the way you talk about it.
478. 00:21:16 But everything that's in there, I mean,
479. 00:21:18 and especially when he starts describing
480. 00:21:20 the different sections of it
481. 00:21:21 and how they feed into each other
482. 00:21:22 and how, you know, your values, you know, narrow down.
483. 00:21:28 I wanted to say funnel down.
484. 00:21:29 How your values narrow down to your priorities
485. 00:21:31 and your goals and your intentions
486. 00:21:32 and all those things, he's just, it's just spot on.
487. 00:21:36 I mean, it's a really, really good model.
488. 00:21:37 It's an absolutely excellent model.
489. 00:21:40 - Okay, so I need to defend the stack here
490. 00:21:42 just a little bit, okay?
491. 00:21:44 And this is the marketer in me.
492. 00:21:47 I have seen many, many, many marketing funnels, okay?
493. 00:21:51 So the reason I think, potentially,
494. 00:21:55 that he used the word stack instead of funnel
495. 00:21:57 is that these things remain connected.
496. 00:22:01 You don't go from the values level to the priorities level
497. 00:22:05 and then your values don't matter anymore.
498. 00:22:07 Like you would when a cold lead goes to a warm lead
499. 00:22:10 and when a warm lead goes to a hot lead,
500. 00:22:12 if you're talking about marketing,
501. 00:22:13 you have different people at different levels
502. 00:22:15 in that funnel where it's like, oh, not my responsibility
503. 00:22:17 anymore, like I'm cutting the cord here.
504. 00:22:20 And he says that the more connected a goal is
505. 00:22:22 with what we value, the more motivated we already get it done.
506. 00:22:25 So I think maybe stack implies
507. 00:22:28 that these things are built on top of one another,
508. 00:22:31 which again, maybe still doesn't fit
509. 00:22:35 because then values should be the bottom, right?
510. 00:22:37 And then it would be like a pyramid.
511. 00:22:40 So I'm not sure, I'm not sure how I feel about that.
512. 00:22:43 On the one hand, I see where you're coming from
513. 00:22:46 and I think I maybe agree with you
514. 00:22:48 now that you pointed it out.
515. 00:22:49 On the other hand, I had no issue with it whatsoever
516. 00:22:52 and it made perfect sense to me up until you said something.
517. 00:22:55 - I read it, I read it and then I looked at the figure
518. 00:22:57 and I was like, what?
519. 00:22:59 Like, that's a funnel.
520. 00:23:00 Like we clearly just made a funnel, right?
521. 00:23:02 Like, it was kind of taken back by it.
522. 00:23:05 But like I said, it doesn't take away from the content.
523. 00:23:08 I hear what you're saying
524. 00:23:10 and I could not disagree with you more.
525. 00:23:13 I do not, I just do not think anything you just told me
526. 00:23:16 like holds any weight or importance.
527. 00:23:20 It's a funnel, it's a funnel.
528. 00:23:22 - All right.
529. 00:23:23 - So I like that he calls out the distinctions
530. 00:23:27 between these areas too, right?
531. 00:23:28 So as he's describing this, an example of this would be
532. 00:23:31 a project as a goal that has an endpoint.
533. 00:23:33 And I think the thing that I like about it is
534. 00:23:36 whether I'd forgotten or whether he just said it
535. 00:23:39 in a way that was more clear than people have said it
536. 00:23:42 in the past, his distinction or his delineation
537. 00:23:46 between these things, even though they're still connected,
538. 00:23:48 like they're definitely connected, one comes from another.
539. 00:23:51 Oh, like I looked at that and I was like,
540. 00:23:52 oh yeah, that actually does make total sense.
541. 00:23:54 Like a project has an endpoint, a goal may or may not, right?
542. 00:23:59 Like it's broader than that, it's bigger than that.
543. 00:24:01 So I just liked the way he added detail
544. 00:24:06 and provided context for these things.
545. 00:24:10 - Yeah, a couple of other things from this chapter,
546. 00:24:13 which are I think important for the rest of the discussion.
547. 00:24:16 Intention is a mental plan to do something.
548. 00:24:19 And he talks about deliberate versus default intentions
549. 00:24:23 throughout the book, where deliberate intentions
550. 00:24:25 are intentions that we set ourselves.
551. 00:24:29 The strength of an intention is our desire
552. 00:24:32 minus our aversion, which I think is an interesting way
553. 00:24:36 to do it.
554. 00:24:37 And so the takeaway from the first chapter here is
555. 00:24:39 pay attention to your actions, because that's where
556. 00:24:41 you're gonna find out where your intentions are,
557. 00:24:44 what you are really desiring what you're trying to avoid.
558. 00:24:48 - Yeah, so very true.
559. 00:24:49 I mean, the idea of default intentions,
560. 00:24:54 if I have a more important action item,
561. 00:24:57 I don't know if that's gonna be true or not,
562. 00:24:59 but like my first action item coming out of this is observe.
563. 00:25:03 So I just wanna observe something about my life,
564. 00:25:06 and like I think I'm gonna do it through the journal.
565. 00:25:11 I'm gonna look at it and say, hey, what am I doing?
566. 00:25:14 Why am I doing this thing?
567. 00:25:15 So okay, the next hour I'm gonna work on this thing.
568. 00:25:17 Like, what's my intention behind this?
569. 00:25:19 What goal is this trying to go for?
570. 00:25:21 What priority is this trying to go for?
571. 00:25:23 So like, I think observation of the daily actions
572. 00:25:27 that I have, I think it's gonna be action.
573. 00:25:28 Number one, for me, and we're only in chapter one, technically.
574. 00:25:33 (laughing)
575. 00:25:35 - Yep.
576. 00:25:36 So we'll see how many action items Corey has by the end.
577. 00:25:40 I don't have any yet, but strong start to the book.
578. 00:25:43 Ready to go to chapter two?
579. 00:25:44 - Yep.
580. 00:25:45 - Okay, so chapter two is all about values,
581. 00:25:48 and this could be an entire book, to be honest.
582. 00:25:52 So the thing that he talks about here
583. 00:25:57 with the 12 fundamental values.
584. 00:26:01 I know because I helped him with the course
585. 00:26:03 that there's someone who I'm blanking on their name,
586. 00:26:09 but they've done a whole bunch of, Shalom Schwartz,
587. 00:26:11 that's what it is.
588. 00:26:12 Did a whole bunch of research on fundamental human values.
589. 00:26:16 I think at the university in Israel.
590. 00:26:20 - Yeah, I don't remember where it is,
591. 00:26:21 but Schwartz is definitely the name.
592. 00:26:23 - Yep, and so talk to,
593. 00:26:28 I think that's the guy that he talked to,
594. 00:26:29 or maybe that was somebody else.
595. 00:26:30 I know he also talked to Tim Pichel at some point,
596. 00:26:33 and that's gonna come up later, I think.
597. 00:26:35 But I like this framing for the fundamental values.
598. 00:26:39 Now, with these values,
599. 00:26:43 there are four different orientations
600. 00:26:46 where we want to improve or change.
601. 00:26:48 We wanna conserve, or we're focused on ourselves,
602. 00:26:50 or we're focused on others.
603. 00:26:51 So you could redo this into a grid kind of.
604. 00:26:55 It's not that simple.
605. 00:26:57 The chart, or the circular pie thing
606. 00:27:00 that Chris has in the book
607. 00:27:02 is actually simpler and easier to read,
608. 00:27:05 but it's essentially coming from that research.
609. 00:27:08 So there's 12 fundamental values.
610. 00:27:10 Self-direction, stimulation, hedonism, achievement,
611. 00:27:13 power, face, security, tradition, conformity,
612. 00:27:16 humility, universalism, and benevolence.
613. 00:27:20 And in the course, Chris gets into all of them.
614. 00:27:23 I don't think we need to talk about all of them here.
615. 00:27:26 I have, as part of the development of that course,
616. 00:27:30 Chris has a values assessment.
617. 00:27:33 So you take the test and then it tells you
618. 00:27:36 what your strongest values are.
619. 00:27:38 Problem is, I took it so many times
620. 00:27:40 that I don't know which is the original results
621. 00:27:42 when we were testing everything.
622. 00:27:46 But I think it's really interesting.
623. 00:27:47 I love that kind of self-discovery stuff.
624. 00:27:49 I wish more people would do that sort of thing.
625. 00:27:52 I love me a good assessment.
626. 00:27:55 Values tell the story of who you already already are.
627. 00:27:57 He says their values are goals that take place
628. 00:27:59 on a very, very long time plane.
629. 00:28:02 And they are broad, trans-situational,
630. 00:28:04 desirable goals that serve as guiding principles
631. 00:28:06 in people's lives.
632. 00:28:07 Now, the thing I think, which can maybe make people
633. 00:28:09 feel a little bit uncomfortable with this,
634. 00:28:11 is if you were to assess your values
635. 00:28:15 and you realize that the results are who you are,
636. 00:28:22 you may not like them.
637. 00:28:24 Okay, so for example, some of the cultural stuff
638. 00:28:27 and the groups that we decide to associate with,
639. 00:28:31 there are certain values that are held up
640. 00:28:33 and there are certain values that are put down.
641. 00:28:35 So you and I would probably both say,
642. 00:28:39 based on our religious communities that we're a part of,
643. 00:28:41 that hedonism would be a quote unquote negative value.
644. 00:28:46 And it's not, the point he makes with these
645. 00:28:50 is that these are neither good nor bad.
646. 00:28:52 They're just the things that we kind of naturally
647. 00:28:54 gravitate towards.
648. 00:28:56 And so I think it's actually important to understand
649. 00:29:00 how you're wired and where those motivations come from
650. 00:29:02 because that can help you actually create and edit,
651. 00:29:05 he'll talk about that too, your goals
652. 00:29:07 so that they are more motivating
653. 00:29:09 and you're more likely to follow through on them.
654. 00:29:12 But yeah, this is one chapter
655. 00:29:14 that could have easily been an entire book, I think.
656. 00:29:17 - Yeah, I interestingly wrote a grant
657. 00:29:21 when I first came out of grad school
658. 00:29:24 that used Schwartz's theory of basic values.
659. 00:29:27 I didn't get the grant, but I wrote a grant that used this.
660. 00:29:30 So I was intrigued by this came up and I was like,
661. 00:29:33 huh, I know this name, like this name sounds familiar
662. 00:29:36 and the fact that we're talking about values,
663. 00:29:38 the workshop that I lead adds values in.
664. 00:29:42 Like it's one of the first things we do
665. 00:29:43 is we do a values assessment.
666. 00:29:44 One of the things I like about the way he describes it
667. 00:29:47 is there are these assessment tools
668. 00:29:48 and he even says it in there that like some of them
669. 00:29:52 are like kind of, you know, how do I say this?
670. 00:29:56 They're kind of chintzy, like they're not,
671. 00:29:58 they're not the most robust tools in the world.
672. 00:30:00 Like they don't actually do that great of a job.
673. 00:30:03 - This is my issue with most of the quote unquote
674. 00:30:06 assessments that are out there, they're glorified
675. 00:30:08 Facebook quizzes.
676. 00:30:10 - Yep, so I like the idea of what he's describing here
677. 00:30:13 a lot better in terms of he has a wheel
678. 00:30:17 that's based on research that's been done.
679. 00:30:20 And he's, I don't remember if he says it directly or not.
680. 00:30:22 So Mike, you can correct me if I'm wrong,
681. 00:30:24 but it's more of like take this wheel
682. 00:30:27 and then think about what you do every day
683. 00:30:30 and think about the way you operate
684. 00:30:33 and figure out which one of these
685. 00:30:35 or which ones of these rank the highest
686. 00:30:37 and which ones of these rank the lowest for you.
687. 00:30:39 And then just think about that.
688. 00:30:41 Like consider what that means and how that impacts your life.
689. 00:30:45 And I like that approach to it, right?
690. 00:30:47 It's not just, oh good, go to this link
691. 00:30:49 and do the values assessment.
692. 00:30:50 It's like actually a more, it's more subjective
693. 00:30:54 because you're doing it on your own,
694. 00:30:56 but at the same time, I think it's more honest
695. 00:30:59 the way you're doing it.
696. 00:31:00 The other one, the other thing I can say is
697. 00:31:02 having had a bunch of faculty go through
698. 00:31:04 the values based assessment,
699. 00:31:06 having thought a lot about values
700. 00:31:07 in different projects that I've done,
701. 00:31:11 if you've never sat down
702. 00:31:13 and actually thought about your values, do it now.
703. 00:31:16 Like go, like go stop whatever you're doing
704. 00:31:19 or as soon as you get a chance and go do it now
705. 00:31:21 because it tells you a lot about the decisions you make.
706. 00:31:25 It tells you a lot about the things you prioritize,
707. 00:31:28 tells you a lot about your life.
708. 00:31:30 And it kind of like rounds out a lot of stuff.
709. 00:31:33 You're like, oh, that's why I, you know,
710. 00:31:37 whatever, whatever, whatever, whatever it is.
711. 00:31:39 Like so, I've told you this before,
712. 00:31:40 like I love movies, I love stories.
713. 00:31:42 I love like getting lost in some other world, right?
714. 00:31:46 And like, it's because like I do have that value
715. 00:31:50 of heat andism, right?
716. 00:31:51 Like I like the enjoyment of getting lost
717. 00:31:53 in that other world and like escaping
718. 00:31:55 from, you know, the current situation.
719. 00:31:58 So that's just an example of, you know, why,
720. 00:32:02 like it helps you understand it and then
721. 00:32:04 whether or not you act on that to a whole nother story.
722. 00:32:06 Like that's a whole nother.
723. 00:32:07 That's basically the rest of the book.
724. 00:32:09 - Yeah, so the, the heat andism value,
725. 00:32:12 I remember when we talked to Chris for the focused episode,
726. 00:32:15 he mentioned that that was his highest value.
727. 00:32:19 And I think I've struggled with that one
728. 00:32:23 being included in this list for lots of reasons,
729. 00:32:27 including the one that I mentioned
730. 00:32:28 that I think a lot of religious communities in particular
731. 00:32:32 view that as a negative thing.
732. 00:32:35 But also I think we are motivated
733. 00:32:39 to either avoid pain or pursue pleasure.
734. 00:32:43 So that applies to all humans.
735. 00:32:45 So I kind of don't know what to do with that one.
736. 00:32:47 I kind of wish that one wasn't on the list, to be honest.
737. 00:32:50 I think what Chris would say and the reason
738. 00:32:51 that it's on there is that yeah, everybody has that
739. 00:32:54 to some degree, but if it's one of your dominant values,
740. 00:32:58 it's more motivating for you than it is for somebody else.
741. 00:33:03 It's like putting the finger on the scale.
742. 00:33:08 So that's the key with any of the self discovery stuff
743. 00:33:11 is don't try to achieve a specific outcome.
744. 00:33:15 Just look at it for what it is.
745. 00:33:16 And say, what do I do with this?
746. 00:33:18 How can I use this to do more of what really matters?
747. 00:33:22 Which that's also something he says in this,
748. 00:33:25 this chapter is that success is being true to who we are
749. 00:33:28 at a fundamental level.
750. 00:33:30 So if we're true to who we are at a fundamental level,
751. 00:33:32 I feel like that translates into more successful outcomes
752. 00:33:37 in terms of the goals that we would set.
753. 00:33:39 Maybe not even the goals that we would set,
754. 00:33:41 but how we would set them.
755. 00:33:42 - Yeah, I agree.
756. 00:33:45 The two other points that he makes here
757. 00:33:47 that I think are really important for somebody
758. 00:33:48 that's going to do in one of these assessments
759. 00:33:50 is understanding that the best way in my mind
760. 00:33:53 that I've found to do it is like your top whatever
761. 00:33:56 and your bottom whatever.
762. 00:33:57 Like don't try to find the value that you operate based on
763. 00:34:01 because that's not realistic.
764. 00:34:02 And Chris calls that out.
765. 00:34:03 Like there's not one value.
766. 00:34:06 There are a series of values that you're prioritizing
767. 00:34:09 or not prioritizing for some reason or another.
768. 00:34:13 And then that can change over time.
769. 00:34:15 So you had said about like,
770. 00:34:16 well, I don't even remember the first one I did.
771. 00:34:18 And the reality is like the first one you did
772. 00:34:20 might not even matter, right?
773. 00:34:21 Like what matters is the timeframe you care about.
774. 00:34:25 So I think he does a good job setting the stage
775. 00:34:30 for values and how to use them.
776. 00:34:32 And like you said, it's research based.
777. 00:34:34 So you said at the beginning of the show,
778. 00:34:35 like it's very research based, which is cool.
779. 00:34:37 - Yep.
780. 00:34:38 So speaking of research or a lack there of,
781. 00:34:41 let's go to chapter three goal editing.
782. 00:34:45 And maybe you know where I'm going with this.
783. 00:34:48 - I 100% knew where you were going to go
784. 00:34:51 and I am right, so go there, get there.
785. 00:34:54 - All right, so Chris has a bone to pick with smart goals.
786. 00:34:57 And I am glad that he addresses this.
787. 00:35:02 Because for a long time I have said I dislike goals
788. 00:35:07 and the way to actually do more of what matters
789. 00:35:10 is not to set a goal, a smart goal specifically
790. 00:35:14 where I'm gonna do this thing for a certain amount of time,
791. 00:35:16 get it done by this date
792. 00:35:19 and make sure that it's simple, measurable,
793. 00:35:21 achievable, realistic, time bound, all those things.
794. 00:35:24 That's garbage, don't worry about any of that.
795. 00:35:27 Chris would agree.
796. 00:35:29 He says that smart goals are not backed by science
797. 00:35:32 and it's kind of crazy how this got steam,
798. 00:35:35 but the original source was a 985 word article from 1981.
799. 00:35:41 And then everybody just started citing smart goals.
800. 00:35:44 Like what the heck? - Which it was like,
801. 00:35:45 it was like one of the first viral,
802. 00:35:47 yeah, I'm sure it wasn't the first, but it just went viral.
803. 00:35:50 Like that's all it did.
804. 00:35:51 It went viral and next thing you know,
805. 00:35:52 like this blog post just blows up.
806. 00:35:54 - Yeah, so don't love that.
807. 00:35:57 But if we can agree that smart goals are dumb,
808. 00:35:59 then we can have a conversation about goals
809. 00:36:01 and you might be able to convince me
810. 00:36:02 that they're worthwhile.
811. 00:36:03 - Like, tell me how you really feel about smart goals.
812. 00:36:06 I mean, I'm not really picking up on it here.
813. 00:36:08 I mean, do you like them?
814. 00:36:10 Do you not?
815. 00:36:11 - Yeah, so he articulates several things
816. 00:36:14 that I guess I felt inherently but didn't know how to say them.
817. 00:36:19 Goals don't have to be specific to be successful.
818. 00:36:22 I think that addresses most of my complaints in one sentence.
819. 00:36:26 - Yep, yep, yep.
820. 00:36:28 - We don't have to have complete control
821. 00:36:29 over what we accomplish,
822. 00:36:31 and every goal that you set is ultimately a prediction.
823. 00:36:34 I feel like that is important.
824. 00:36:37 So when you set a goal,
825. 00:36:39 if you are a goal setting person
826. 00:36:41 and that really resonates with you
827. 00:36:42 and you're gonna set your goals
828. 00:36:43 and you're gonna crush it and yadda, yadda, yadda.
829. 00:36:46 That's fine, but just recognize
830. 00:36:48 that it's really just a prediction
831. 00:36:51 and it could be wrong. (laughs)
832. 00:36:54 Mention that each goal should have three components.
833. 00:36:59 The outcome you predict will happen.
834. 00:37:00 The process or processes that will lead you
835. 00:37:03 to achieving that outcome
836. 00:37:05 and the rate at which you're making progress.
837. 00:37:08 That is the important one,
838. 00:37:10 and that's where I think I can get on board with this
839. 00:37:13 because I remember when Chris was writing,
840. 00:37:16 I think the book before this,
841. 00:37:19 he was sharing this chart with our group
842. 00:37:23 because he wanted some public accountability
843. 00:37:26 for the number of words he was writing every day.
844. 00:37:30 It was actually the inspiration for that chart
845. 00:37:32 I made during "Nano-Rimo" that is not "Nano-Rimo"?
846. 00:37:36 Yeah, same sort of thing.
847. 00:37:38 You could just see the chart going up
848. 00:37:41 and I remember watching that chart
849. 00:37:44 and just he keeps plodding away,
850. 00:37:46 he keeps writing the words. (laughs)
851. 00:37:49 Then before long, he's got the book done.
852. 00:37:52 I think this is the piece that most people will neglect
853. 00:37:56 and I feel like it's the most important.
854. 00:37:58 - Can we use that example just to clarify this point?
855. 00:38:01 So his outcome goal in that situation
856. 00:38:04 would have been write a book.
857. 00:38:06 - Yep.
858. 00:38:07 - His process goal would have been write 500 words a day.
859. 00:38:12 Is that, would you say that?
860. 00:38:13 Or would it be write every day?
861. 00:38:17 - Good question.
862. 00:38:17 I'm not sure because the outcome goal is probably,
863. 00:38:21 I never had a book deal, so I don't know,
864. 00:38:23 but there probably is a certain number of words
865. 00:38:26 by a specific date.
866. 00:38:28 So if I remember write, the process goal is
867. 00:38:31 I'm gonna shoot for this many words per day
868. 00:38:34 like you were saying, but also kind of overshooting
869. 00:38:37 that target knowing that I'll probably
870. 00:38:41 get rid of some of them in order to still meet the target.
871. 00:38:47 - Yeah, and then the, what's the last one?
872. 00:38:49 The rate is like, how am I doing on that?
873. 00:38:52 Am I actually hitting my process goal?
874. 00:38:55 Or am I not?
875. 00:38:56 Or am I hitting it more days than I'm not?
876. 00:38:57 Or am I over my process goal or am I under?
877. 00:38:59 - Yeah, he had like a trend line
878. 00:39:01 and he wanted to keep it above the trend line.
879. 00:39:03 - Yeah, which I really, I've never thought about goals
880. 00:39:07 within those three buckets.
881. 00:39:08 And even just the distinction, you know,
882. 00:39:10 you had said about rate being the one
883. 00:39:12 that really jumped out at you.
884. 00:39:14 Even the distinction between an outcome goal
885. 00:39:15 and a process goal, I think way more
886. 00:39:20 in terms of outcome goals and way less
887. 00:39:22 in terms of process goals.
888. 00:39:24 And I think process goals make a lot more sense to me.
889. 00:39:27 Like having read this, I'm like, oh,
890. 00:39:29 I think process goals are a lot more valuable
891. 00:39:31 than outcome goals.
892. 00:39:33 They've been that great, you need all three of them,
893. 00:39:34 but at the same time, that was just a,
894. 00:39:36 there's a really big insight for me
895. 00:39:37 as I worked through this goals section.
896. 00:39:41 - Well, he does mention that outcome goals
897. 00:39:43 tend to be more motivating, which is interesting.
898. 00:39:46 And then he has the ideal ratio for planning versus action.
899. 00:39:50 - I don't remember this, what was that?
900. 00:39:52 - 20% planning, 80% action.
901. 00:39:54 - Ah, okay.
902. 00:39:56 - Yeah, so, which addresses one of the issues
903. 00:40:00 I think I have with goal setting is I've seen people
904. 00:40:03 who just get so bogged down in managing the project
905. 00:40:06 and never actually doing the work required
906. 00:40:09 to complete the project, but they can manage
907. 00:40:11 the heck out of it.
908. 00:40:13 - Yep, yep.
909. 00:40:15 I liked his goal inventory.
910. 00:40:17 So basically it's like write down
911. 00:40:19 all the current goals you're working toward.
912. 00:40:21 And then I really like the idea of then connecting that
913. 00:40:25 with the chapter before this and saying, what's the value?
914. 00:40:28 So, okay, so I've got this goal, what value is it hitting?
915. 00:40:32 I've got this goal, what value is it hitting?
916. 00:40:33 And then I'm almost positive he did this in my brain
917. 00:40:35 is kind of mixing things up a little bit.
918. 00:40:38 So if I'm in the wrong place, Mike, tell me.
919. 00:40:40 But like, how many, like am I hitting the right values
920. 00:40:43 and right, it's not a matter of right and wrong,
921. 00:40:45 but it's like am I hitting the values
922. 00:40:46 that are most important to me?
923. 00:40:48 And then how many of my projects right now
924. 00:40:50 are associated with that value?
925. 00:40:53 And just essentially doing that inventory.
926. 00:40:54 And I think that is action item number two for me
927. 00:40:58 is like, I think there's a goal inventory in my future.
928. 00:41:01 I don't know if I want to write it down
929. 00:41:03 and commit to it right now, but like,
930. 00:41:04 the idea of goal inventory seems very, very valuable to...
931. 00:41:10 - Oh, that's hilarious.
932. 00:41:12 So I'm looking in the show, dawkin.
933. 00:41:13 And I'm not gonna, I don't want to steal your thunder,
934. 00:41:15 but Mike just wrote down Create a Goal Inventory.
935. 00:41:17 - Well, that is actually, it is actually in my mind map.
936. 00:41:20 So that was one of my action items
937. 00:41:21 is to make that goal inventory.
938. 00:41:23 So I was gonna say, do it, do it with me.
939. 00:41:25 - Yeah, okay, let's do it, yep, I'll write them.
940. 00:41:27 - All right, I think you're right that it's valuable
941. 00:41:31 to figure out how the values connect.
942. 00:41:34 One thing I want to call out though,
943. 00:41:35 'cause this is the segue into the next chapter
944. 00:41:37 and he explicitly addresses this in this chapter,
945. 00:41:40 is that just because something isn't really
946. 00:41:42 strongly connected to your values and it's fun to do,
947. 00:41:46 doesn't mean it's not worth doing.
948. 00:41:48 So just because a goal is a struggle
949. 00:41:50 doesn't mean it's not worthwhile.
950. 00:41:52 So that leads to the next one, chapter four is ugly goals.
951. 00:41:57 And this is really about goal, I guess a version,
952. 00:42:03 the things that we don't want to do
953. 00:42:05 and why we don't want to do them,
954. 00:42:07 mentions that every goal has a combination
955. 00:42:09 of a version and desire, which is interesting
956. 00:42:11 because you think that, well, I guess in my head
957. 00:42:15 there's two approaches.
958. 00:42:18 One is, this is totally something I want to do,
959. 00:42:21 my motivation is really high, so this is gonna be a breeze.
960. 00:42:23 And the other one is, I just don't want to do this at all.
961. 00:42:27 But I like the fact that they're on, this is a mix,
962. 00:42:28 and we got to find the right balance here.
963. 00:42:31 This is where Tim Pichel comes in.
964. 00:42:32 So there's a quote here from Tim Pichel
965. 00:42:34 who says procrastination isn't a time management problem,
966. 00:42:37 it's an emotion regulation problem.
967. 00:42:40 And I think that is right on the money.
968. 00:42:44 There are six characteristics of aversive tasks,
969. 00:42:47 they are boring, unpleasant, frustrating,
970. 00:42:49 far off in the future, unstructured and meaningless.
971. 00:42:52 And this is where Chris's course speaks to this a lot.
972. 00:42:56 So it speaks to a lot of the content in this book,
973. 00:43:00 but the course is really on overcoming procrastination.
974. 00:43:03 So it's really this section of the book right here.
975. 00:43:07 And I remember those videos,
976. 00:43:09 he's got all these different tactics that you can use
977. 00:43:12 when you identify this thing is boring,
978. 00:43:14 or this thing is unpleasant, or this thing is frustrating.
979. 00:43:17 And it's not just, we'll get clear of what you need to do.
980. 00:43:20 There are different levers that you can pull,
981. 00:43:22 and in the course he talks about
982. 00:43:24 how easy they are to implement
983. 00:43:25 and what the payoff is for each one.
984. 00:43:27 So you can kind of pick the tactics that you want.
985. 00:43:31 So you can obviously try to get rid of the aversion.
986. 00:43:35 The way I guess you do that would be
987. 00:43:37 by increasing the enjoyment.
988. 00:43:38 So there are different ways that you can do that.
989. 00:43:40 You can do aversion journaling,
990. 00:43:42 make it about others, pair it with another task,
991. 00:43:44 give yourself a choice, gamify it.
992. 00:43:46 Those are all types of things that are in the course.
993. 00:43:51 And I don't think there's anything in the book
994. 00:43:52 that I really was like,
995. 00:43:55 oh, this is completely game-changing,
996. 00:43:58 but that framing was really interesting.
997. 00:44:01 If I find myself now struggling
998. 00:44:04 to follow through on something,
999. 00:44:05 I feel like I have the tools
1000. 00:44:07 to accurately diagnose the situation by asking why.
1001. 00:44:11 - Yeah, I like how he thinks about aversion,
1002. 00:44:15 and then he ties it right to his values.
1003. 00:44:21 So he'll say like, oh, I'm self-directed and I'm structured.
1004. 00:44:25 So therefore, here's a clear example of like,
1005. 00:44:27 I've had this problem in the past
1006. 00:44:29 with goal achievement or whatever it was,
1007. 00:44:31 this was the aversion I was having,
1008. 00:44:32 and I realized if I just did the following,
1009. 00:44:35 I could overcome that or it would help me overcome that.
1010. 00:44:39 And like that was really helpful to me.
1011. 00:44:41 So like, and then he gives a bunch
1012. 00:44:43 of different examples here.
1013. 00:44:45 And it was not just like, I'm gonna tell you a story,
1014. 00:44:47 it was like this example applies directly
1015. 00:44:49 to what I'm talking about.
1016. 00:44:50 So I was really happy with that in terms of the,
1017. 00:44:54 so the example he gives is post-pandemic goal,
1018. 00:44:56 he wanted to lose 15%,
1019. 00:44:57 lose weight to get to 15% body fat.
1020. 00:44:59 But then he outlines like all the details of it,
1021. 00:45:01 and it was just very, very valuable.
1022. 00:45:04 He talks about in here that if one of your goals
1023. 00:45:07 is aversive or if you're aversive to one of your goals,
1024. 00:45:11 then you can plan it out, connect goals to habits
1025. 00:45:13 and add rewards and penalties.
1026. 00:45:15 And Mike, like, I like this,
1027. 00:45:18 but I don't think it works for me,
1028. 00:45:19 and I don't know why.
1029. 00:45:20 Like, I gotta figure out why it works.
1030. 00:45:22 I can plan it all day.
1031. 00:45:24 I can try to connect it to a habit.
1032. 00:45:26 Sometimes the habit will stick, sometimes it won't.
1033. 00:45:28 I can say like, I'm gonna reward myself
1034. 00:45:30 or I'm gonna penalize myself.
1035. 00:45:31 And then I just go like, I don't care.
1036. 00:45:32 Like I'm totally okay with either the,
1037. 00:45:34 not getting the reward or experiencing the penalty.
1038. 00:45:37 And I'm wondering, it's like,
1039. 00:45:38 are the stakes just not high enough?
1040. 00:45:41 Like, do I need stakes that are just significantly higher
1041. 00:45:45 at this stage in my life?
1042. 00:45:46 And it kind of bothers me.
1043. 00:45:48 Like, I'm not gonna lie.
1044. 00:45:49 Like, I was kind of bothered by this aversion chapter,
1045. 00:45:51 because I think I realized there were multiple different
1046. 00:45:55 sections where I saw like, oh, like you're,
1047. 00:45:59 you're averse to this goal.
1048. 00:46:01 Or you're like procrastinating on this goal.
1049. 00:46:03 Why are you doing that, Corey?
1050. 00:46:04 Like, analyze why you're doing that.
1051. 00:46:06 So I don't wanna make the show too much
1052. 00:46:07 about like me thinking through this,
1053. 00:46:09 but this chapter like impacted me.
1054. 00:46:12 Like I was just kind of like, oh man,
1055. 00:46:15 I gotta figure out what I'm doing here.
1056. 00:46:17 And something's not right.
1057. 00:46:18 Well, I think there's a couple things here.
1058. 00:46:20 So first he mentions that accessing the logical centers
1059. 00:46:23 in our brain helps decrease aversion,
1060. 00:46:25 making it less likely that we procrastinate.
1061. 00:46:27 So I think regardless of your values,
1062. 00:46:30 taking the time to think about it increases the likelihood
1063. 00:46:33 that you will follow through on what you wanna do
1064. 00:46:36 or you can break the bad habit, et cetera.
1065. 00:46:38 But I think there's another component to this,
1066. 00:46:40 which is probably related to the issue
1067. 00:46:43 that you were just describing.
1068. 00:46:44 And that is the next chapter.
1069. 00:46:46 Yeah, so the next chapter, chapter five is attractive goals.
1070. 00:46:49 And really this is about social contagion.
1071. 00:46:53 Now there's positive and negative social contagion.
1072. 00:46:58 And he mentions that there are five factors that determine
1073. 00:47:00 how much we desire making progress on our goals
1074. 00:47:02 in the moment, social norms, whether something is a habit,
1075. 00:47:05 how much control we have, the attitudes we have about it
1076. 00:47:08 are expected emotions related to it.
1077. 00:47:10 So I think if you're trying to build a habit,
1078. 00:47:13 it's not a habit yet, you need to lean more heavily
1079. 00:47:17 on some of these other things.
1080. 00:47:20 And he mentions that specifically
1081. 00:47:21 with the social contagion, a lot of that is hidden from view.
1082. 00:47:24 We don't see it a lot of times.
1083. 00:47:27 But for example, if a friend of yours becomes obese,
1084. 00:47:29 you are 45% more likely to gain weight
1085. 00:47:31 in the next two or four years.
1086. 00:47:33 I mean, other people have said this for years.
1087. 00:47:35 You are who you surround yourself with.
1088. 00:47:38 So the goal he says in this chapter
1089. 00:47:42 is to understand negative social contagion
1090. 00:47:44 and double down on positive social contagion.
1091. 00:47:48 So when you're talking about the things
1092. 00:47:50 that you're trying to set goals for,
1093. 00:47:51 and I'm picking on you just because you brought it up.
1094. 00:47:53 - Oh, that's good.
1095. 00:47:54 - But like, if you really wanted to do the thing,
1096. 00:47:57 you could surround yourself with people
1097. 00:47:59 who think that it is absolutely appalling
1098. 00:48:02 that you're not doing this thing, right?
1099. 00:48:05 Or you could join a group where they're just gonna go
1100. 00:48:07 do the thing every Saturday morning
1101. 00:48:09 and they're gonna call you if you're not there.
1102. 00:48:12 And if you did those two things,
1103. 00:48:14 I can almost guarantee that you're gonna follow through on it.
1104. 00:48:17 - Yeah, that's true.
1105. 00:48:18 - And it's okay that you don't.
1106. 00:48:19 Like, that's the other thing here is
1107. 00:48:21 we can't do all the things.
1108. 00:48:23 So let's pick the things that we really wanna focus on
1109. 00:48:28 and let's put wood behind those arrows
1110. 00:48:31 and the things that are just nice to have
1111. 00:48:33 be okay letting those slide.
1112. 00:48:35 - Yeah, okay.
1113. 00:48:36 So this brings me to a question I have for you
1114. 00:48:38 between chapters four and chapters five.
1115. 00:48:40 So we start talking about habits.
1116. 00:48:42 We come in here and we get to social contagion
1117. 00:48:44 and he's talking about forming habits
1118. 00:48:47 and making them more automatic and all these things.
1119. 00:48:50 If you look at the intention funnel, sorry,
1120. 00:48:53 the intention stack, I didn't do that on purpose.
1121. 00:48:55 I'm really sorry.
1122. 00:48:56 If you look at the intention stack,
1123. 00:48:59 habits aren't on the intention stack.
1124. 00:49:01 - Yeah, it's true.
1125. 00:49:02 - Do you think that's intentional?
1126. 00:49:04 Like, do you think he didn't include those on there
1127. 00:49:08 because they weren't important enough
1128. 00:49:09 or they didn't fit well?
1129. 00:49:11 I don't remember him talking about it.
1130. 00:49:13 So if he talked about it, correct me, but.
1131. 00:49:16 - Well, he does talk about habits in chapter one.
1132. 00:49:19 He talks about the five different types of habit cues,
1133. 00:49:22 a certain time, a certain place,
1134. 00:49:24 a proceeding event in emotional state
1135. 00:49:26 where the presence of certain people.
1136. 00:49:28 So I think that the habits,
1137. 00:49:32 let's see, where would these fit?
1138. 00:49:34 These would probably be somewhere
1139. 00:49:36 between present intentions and plans.
1140. 00:49:38 - That's what I thought too, yeah.
1141. 00:49:40 - Yeah, but there isn't a explicit level
1142. 00:49:44 on the intention stack for habits.
1143. 00:49:46 And I think that's okay.
1144. 00:49:49 - Yeah, it was just curious to me.
1145. 00:49:51 I was like, this seems like an important enough thing
1146. 00:49:54 to include on there, but he didn't include it on there.
1147. 00:49:57 So it was just something that I noticed as I was reviewing.
1148. 00:50:01 - Yep.
1149. 00:50:03 - Yeah, I don't have any specific action items
1150. 00:50:05 from this chapter, but there's a couple of things
1151. 00:50:07 that I think you could potentially make action items out of.
1152. 00:50:10 And that is, again, the awareness, right?
1153. 00:50:12 Awareness is key when it comes
1154. 00:50:14 to understanding social contagion.
1155. 00:50:16 There are three questions I picked up
1156. 00:50:19 from Jim Rohn back in the day,
1157. 00:50:20 which I think are brilliant.
1158. 00:50:22 Who am I allowing to speak into my life?
1159. 00:50:24 What effect is that having on me and is that okay?
1160. 00:50:28 And that is essentially recognizing
1161. 00:50:30 who you are surrounding yourself with
1162. 00:50:32 and what impact they are having on your life.
1163. 00:50:36 So Chris says to surround yourself
1164. 00:50:38 with other people chasing the same goal as you are,
1165. 00:50:40 that creates a positive social contagion.
1166. 00:50:43 And then always have intention behind what you are doing
1167. 00:50:45 and make it contribute to something
1168. 00:50:47 that you find important.
1169. 00:50:49 I think that is the key.
1170. 00:50:51 And what I like about this book in general,
1171. 00:50:54 but I think it's worth calling out right here is that
1172. 00:50:57 he's not telling you to go find your purpose.
1173. 00:51:04 He's telling you to create intention with your actions.
1174. 00:51:08 So those are very different things.
1175. 00:51:10 I think when people think about finding a purpose
1176. 00:51:15 or a mission, I do it with the life theme.
1177. 00:51:18 Some of the feedback or pushback I get
1178. 00:51:20 from some of that stuff is,
1179. 00:51:22 well, what if I do all this work
1180. 00:51:24 and I figure out what I'm really motivated to do
1181. 00:51:30 and it's not in alignment with what I'm doing right now.
1182. 00:51:33 If I go through this life theme process,
1183. 00:51:34 are you going to make me quit my job?
1184. 00:51:36 I'm like, no, most of the time what happens
1185. 00:51:39 is you go through the process,
1186. 00:51:41 you recognize what's important to you
1187. 00:51:43 and your job, your vocation, your career
1188. 00:51:47 is a way of living that out.
1189. 00:51:49 But now you have a specific blueprint
1190. 00:51:51 which is going to infuse meaning and motivation
1191. 00:51:53 into your day to day.
1192. 00:51:55 It's now a deliberate intention
1193. 00:51:56 instead of a default intention
1194. 00:51:58 where you just show up and you do the thing
1195. 00:52:00 and you do it better and it's more fun
1196. 00:52:02 and you get more out of it.
1197. 00:52:04 - Yeah, I don't have a ton of stuff out of this chapter
1198. 00:52:08 either that you haven't even already talked about.
1199. 00:52:11 So I'm okay to move on to deeper goals now.
1200. 00:52:13 - All right, let's talk about deeper goals.
1201. 00:52:17 So the very first thing he says here
1202. 00:52:19 is that meaning is made not found.
1203. 00:52:21 So it's kind of what I was talking about.
1204. 00:52:23 Ms. Align goals make us feel guilty.
1205. 00:52:26 Do you have any examples of this by the way?
1206. 00:52:28 - Ms. Align goals.
1207. 00:52:30 - I'll put you on the spot here, but.
1208. 00:52:32 - Yeah, I'm trying to think,
1209. 00:52:34 do I have anywhere Ms. Align goals make me feel guilty?
1210. 00:52:37 - Not off the top of my head, do you?
1211. 00:52:40 - I'm not sure that I do, but I remember the feeling.
1212. 00:52:43 So that's what I wanted to call out here is like,
1213. 00:52:45 you can tell when you have this goal to do this thing
1214. 00:52:49 and you just, why am I doing this?
1215. 00:52:51 This is so stupid, right?
1216. 00:52:53 Somebody decided that this was something
1217. 00:52:55 that was worth doing and we just said, okay.
1218. 00:52:58 And there was really no connection to it.
1219. 00:53:01 Yeah, so I think this is really important
1220. 00:53:03 because what do you do with that Ms. Align goal
1221. 00:53:05 is making you feel guilty.
1222. 00:53:06 You don't have to do it.
1223. 00:53:09 - Well, so this is a big deal, right?
1224. 00:53:12 Like this is that idea of saying no
1225. 00:53:14 or that idea of changing your mind.
1226. 00:53:16 And, okay, I said I was gonna do a thing, right?
1227. 00:53:19 And I've committed to doing that.
1228. 00:53:21 How strong do I stay on that commitment
1229. 00:53:24 versus in a healthy and responsible way
1230. 00:53:28 saying like, okay, this was a thing.
1231. 00:53:31 It's not anymore.
1232. 00:53:33 It's better for everybody, me and you
1233. 00:53:35 and everybody that's involved if we just part ways, right?
1234. 00:53:39 And we figure out a way to do that in a responsible manner.
1235. 00:53:41 We don't just cut and run, you know?
1236. 00:53:43 Like you don't just say, I don't care anymore.
1237. 00:53:45 But like I, that's been for some reason
1238. 00:53:49 that's been on my mind a lot lately.
1239. 00:53:51 And it's like, it may be just because in the last two weeks
1240. 00:53:53 I've felt like I've had so much to do.
1241. 00:53:55 And there's just not enough time in the day that I'm like,
1242. 00:53:58 okay, like what, like am I out of alignment here?
1243. 00:54:03 But like, and this is where I'm struggling with like,
1244. 00:54:05 I don't necessarily know if I feel guilty about it.
1245. 00:54:08 You know, like, but I can tell you that,
1246. 00:54:10 like there's something that needs to happen, right?
1247. 00:54:12 Like I want to do the goals that align more with my intentions,
1248. 00:54:17 that align more with my values.
1249. 00:54:20 I don't want to do the ones that are just like,
1250. 00:54:22 oh, so and so thinks I should do this
1251. 00:54:24 because they say it was, it's a good idea.
1252. 00:54:27 And I'm just kind of like, I'm done.
1253. 00:54:28 And I don't know if that's my 40 year old man,
1254. 00:54:31 you know, coming out or, you know,
1255. 00:54:33 the cranky old man coming out or if that's like actually
1256. 00:54:36 me just maturing in terms of goal setting and productivity.
1257. 00:54:40 - Yeah, so I think that guilty feeling really is friction.
1258. 00:54:48 If you're not in alignment, you experience friction.
1259. 00:54:52 That's how I would describe it.
1260. 00:54:53 And it's not just individually internally
1261. 00:54:57 when you're doing something against your values.
1262. 00:54:59 You can experience friction anytime you work with somebody else.
1263. 00:55:03 And that's really why there's all these like Colby assessments
1264. 00:55:07 and working styles is recognizing where the friction
1265. 00:55:10 is going to come from so you can plan ahead
1266. 00:55:13 and make it as streamlined as possible.
1267. 00:55:16 So I, sorry, go ahead.
1268. 00:55:18 - Well, he talks about something here
1269. 00:55:19 that's related to what you're describing.
1270. 00:55:21 You're talking about friction and I like the friction wording
1271. 00:55:24 a lot.
1272. 00:55:25 He describes burnout, right?
1273. 00:55:26 Burnout is the result of unmanaged chronic stress
1274. 00:55:29 that we repeatedly experience.
1275. 00:55:31 And I think about if you're living in this situation
1276. 00:55:33 where your goals aren't aligned with your values,
1277. 00:55:36 your actions aren't aligned with your values,
1278. 00:55:37 your day to day isn't aligned with your values,
1279. 00:55:40 AKA, you're not intentional about what you're doing.
1280. 00:55:43 Burnout is a natural byproduct of that.
1281. 00:55:46 Like you just think about the fact
1282. 00:55:47 that you're living in this idea of chronic stress,
1283. 00:55:49 you called it friction, which I really, really liked.
1284. 00:55:51 You're just living in the situation of something's not right.
1285. 00:55:54 It's not right, it's not right, it's not right.
1286. 00:55:56 And you can only do that for so long
1287. 00:55:59 before I think like naturally and understandably,
1288. 00:56:03 you're just like, I'm done.
1289. 00:56:04 Like I'm out of here, like I can't do it anymore.
1290. 00:56:07 - 100%.
1291. 00:56:08 And that doesn't mean that you just avoid all of those things
1292. 00:56:10 that are contrary to your values either.
1293. 00:56:13 And this is where I think some of the best advice
1294. 00:56:15 in the entire book comes because he says,
1295. 00:56:17 when you have to do something against your top values,
1296. 00:56:19 so you will have to do something against your top values.
1297. 00:56:24 What do you do in those scenarios?
1298. 00:56:25 Be sure to schedule time to do something congruent
1299. 00:56:28 with those values.
1300. 00:56:30 And he floats the idea of values days,
1301. 00:56:34 which I think are pretty great.
1302. 00:56:35 You don't have to take a whole day
1303. 00:56:36 and build up a value, but that's alignment right there.
1304. 00:56:41 - That was a great example, his values days.
1305. 00:56:44 - Yeah.
1306. 00:56:45 - So really the big takeaway is no one invests in your values.
1307. 00:56:49 There's no formula for this how you have to do it,
1308. 00:56:52 but again, awareness is the key here.
1309. 00:56:54 - I liked the concept of trip wires too.
1310. 00:56:56 I thought this was a really actionable and really good thing.
1311. 00:56:59 So a trip wire would be a situation
1312. 00:57:01 where you intentionally reflect.
1313. 00:57:04 So one of the things we haven't talked a lot about
1314. 00:57:06 in the episode so far is this idea of self-reflection,
1315. 00:57:10 'cause he talks about self-reflection, self-direction,
1316. 00:57:12 these kind of things quite a bit,
1317. 00:57:14 but he talks about creating this self-reflective loop
1318. 00:57:16 so we can notice what we're doing,
1319. 00:57:18 and we can just call attention to it.
1320. 00:57:21 And this ties into his mindfulness meditation type things.
1321. 00:57:25 And so it's like he's doing a good job,
1322. 00:57:28 weaving a lot of things together in a natural way
1323. 00:57:32 that doesn't sound like he's trying to force ideas together.
1324. 00:57:35 He's like, no, these things are connected to each other,
1325. 00:57:37 and here's how they might be connected to each other.
1326. 00:57:41 - Yep.
1327. 00:57:42 Anything else before we go into intentional rituals?
1328. 00:57:45 - Nope, I'm good there, I'm good to go.
1329. 00:57:47 - All right, so chapter seven is intentional rituals,
1330. 00:57:51 and he mentions that intentions quickly fade
1331. 00:57:56 after they are initially set,
1332. 00:57:59 and losing motivation on our intentions is normal.
1333. 00:58:07 So if we can figure out a way to regularly bring back
1334. 00:58:12 intentionality, it's gonna create more motivation
1335. 00:58:15 to do what we said was important to us.
1336. 00:58:21 He mentions there's three things good intentional rituals
1337. 00:58:25 have where you decide what you're going to have accomplished
1338. 00:58:28 after we carry out our intentions,
1339. 00:58:31 helps us do this across multiple timeframes,
1340. 00:58:34 and then they should be kept simple.
1341. 00:58:36 I think those are pretty great characteristics,
1342. 00:58:38 but I didn't really actually have a whole lot in here.
1343. 00:58:41 He does talk about rolling time blocking,
1344. 00:58:43 where you scheduled just a few hours out at a time.
1345. 00:58:45 - Okay, that was the phrase that I couldn't remember,
1346. 00:58:50 and I love it, he's talking right to me, absolutely.
1347. 00:58:52 - Okay, see this is, when I read that,
1348. 00:58:54 I was like this sounds like a terrible idea,
1349. 00:58:56 'cause you know what'll happen is I'll time block my morning
1350. 00:58:58 and then I'll get busy and then I won't do it again.
1351. 00:59:01 But I had the thought, this probably completely works
1352. 00:59:05 for certain people in certain situations,
1353. 00:59:07 and it's kind of interesting, but not surprising to me
1354. 00:59:11 that this for you is like, oh yeah, this is the thing.
1355. 00:59:15 - Yeah, I mean, it just works with,
1356. 00:59:19 the challenge I have is he talks at one point here
1357. 00:59:21 about the creator and the manager,
1358. 00:59:23 and how their days are structured differently, right?
1359. 00:59:26 So the creator, they benefit from more of that focus time,
1360. 00:59:31 that time it's uninterrupted to really pour into,
1361. 00:59:35 and then when they can't be focused,
1362. 00:59:37 they'll do something else intentionally
1363. 00:59:39 to release their brain and allow that creativeness
1364. 00:59:43 to come back later.
1365. 00:59:44 Whereas the manager's like, oh no,
1366. 00:59:46 like I wanna know like this chunk and this chunk
1367. 00:59:48 and this chunk and this chunk and this chunk and this chunk.
1368. 00:59:51 And what I struggle with is like,
1369. 00:59:53 I have to balance those two lines.
1370. 00:59:56 Like there's part of my day that needs to be creator focused,
1371. 00:59:59 creating classes, writing things,
1372. 01:00:02 thinking about projects, those kind of things.
1373. 01:00:03 And then there's other ones that are very much time managed.
1374. 01:00:05 Like I got this advising appointment,
1375. 01:00:07 I got this thing, I got this thing.
1376. 01:00:08 He describes, and I'm almost positive it's here.
1377. 01:00:10 I hope I'm not messing up the chapter,
1378. 01:00:12 but it's gotta be here.
1379. 01:00:14 He describes like that one meeting that comes in
1380. 01:00:17 and just blows up your morning, right?
1381. 01:00:19 Like, oh, okay, I've got this three and a half hour block
1382. 01:00:23 planned out and I'm gonna work on this paper
1383. 01:00:25 and it's gonna be amazing.
1384. 01:00:26 And then they wanna meet with me at 10.30 in the morning.
1385. 01:00:31 And it's like, and it really does.
1386. 01:00:33 Like it absolutely messes with that.
1387. 01:00:37 So this idea of this rolling time blocking
1388. 01:00:40 where you're more free, but at the same time,
1389. 01:00:44 you're still getting the benefits of time blocking.
1390. 01:00:46 So I look at this and I say, okay, in the morning,
1391. 01:00:49 I'm gonna time block the morning.
1392. 01:00:51 And then what I'm gonna let happen is I'm gonna let
1393. 01:00:54 all of the chaos that's gonna happen in the morning
1394. 01:00:56 and like this student needs to meet with me
1395. 01:00:57 and this thing happened and this project blew up
1396. 01:00:59 so I gotta fix that or this thing's happening in the lab.
1397. 01:01:02 And then I can restructure and replan the afternoon.
1398. 01:01:05 Like this actually works great.
1399. 01:01:08 Like this is beautiful.
1400. 01:01:09 And I'm going to start implementing this.
1401. 01:01:12 So my action item is to implement this
1402. 01:01:14 where I do a planning session either at night
1403. 01:01:16 or in the morning and then I do one around like lunchtime.
1404. 01:01:20 It's gonna be whenever that, you know,
1405. 01:01:22 that class break happens, I'll do another one.
1406. 01:01:24 So that's my third action item out of this.
1407. 01:01:27 - Wow, nice.
1408. 01:01:30 All right, anything else from this chapter?
1409. 01:01:33 Nope.
1410. 01:01:34 Okay, so the next one then is chapter eight
1411. 01:01:38 and this is putting it all together.
1412. 01:01:41 This is basically the conclusion before the conclusion.
1413. 01:01:45 I love what he tells you in the first part of this.
1414. 01:01:48 He's like, I'm gonna basically tell you everything
1415. 01:01:50 I already told you in just a shorter way, right?
1416. 01:01:53 Like I'm just gonna condense everything down
1417. 01:01:55 and I'm gonna write it.
1418. 01:01:56 And I don't remember how many pages it was.
1419. 01:01:58 It couldn't have been more than 10 pages.
1420. 01:02:00 Like he just like, here it is, boom.
1421. 01:02:03 Like here's everything I just told you.
1422. 01:02:05 - Yeah, so I do have one issue with this section.
1423. 01:02:08 He's got four steps to following through on your goals.
1424. 01:02:12 Step one is shape, step two is act.
1425. 01:02:15 Step three is edit.
1426. 01:02:17 And then step four is three things.
1427. 01:02:21 Maintain, celebrate and reflect.
1428. 01:02:23 I mean, I get why those are grouped together,
1429. 01:02:25 but also it's just weird.
1430. 01:02:28 - I thought the same thing too.
1431. 01:02:29 And I was like, I'm just gonna let that one go.
1432. 01:02:31 Like I'm not gonna dig into that one, but I agree with you.
1433. 01:02:33 - That's exactly the reaction I had.
1434. 01:02:36 I was like, okay, this is weird.
1435. 01:02:37 Nah, nah, it's okay.
1436. 01:02:39 - Whatever.
1437. 01:02:40 Yeah, cool, I feel validated that you had the same action.
1438. 01:02:44 - Oh, I absolutely had the same reaction.
1439. 01:02:46 But I don't have very much out of this
1440. 01:02:47 because it's legitimately what he says
1441. 01:02:50 in the first two sentences or first paragraph.
1442. 01:02:52 It's a recap of the last seven chapters.
1443. 01:02:56 - How do you feel about having this
1444. 01:02:57 and then a separate conclusion?
1445. 01:03:00 - That doesn't bother me.
1446. 01:03:01 - Yeah, okay.
1447. 01:03:02 - It doesn't really bother me at all.
1448. 01:03:03 I think he could have put this in the appendix
1449. 01:03:06 and I'd have been totally fine.
1450. 01:03:07 He could have in, we've read books in the past
1451. 01:03:12 like the published book or whatever.
1452. 01:03:14 He could have linked us out to his website
1453. 01:03:16 in his email list and said,
1454. 01:03:17 if you wanna recap of everything,
1455. 01:03:19 I've condensed it down to five pages.
1456. 01:03:20 Here you go.
1457. 01:03:21 And I wouldn't have, I would have been okay with that.
1458. 01:03:23 I'd have been okay with it in his appendix
1459. 01:03:25 or right here didn't really bother me
1460. 01:03:27 'cause I could compartmentalize chapter eight really easily
1461. 01:03:30 and then just then just let it fly.
1462. 01:03:32 - Okay, it kinda bugged me because chapter zero
1463. 01:03:36 is sort of like the pre stuff.
1464. 01:03:39 So that's not an actual chapter.
1465. 01:03:41 But then chapter eight is sort of like the post stuff
1466. 01:03:44 and that is an actual chapter.
1467. 01:03:46 So not a big deal, but yeah, I thought it was a little weird.
1468. 01:03:50 - Is he a programmer?
1469. 01:03:52 - Tell you the truth.
1470. 01:03:53 I don't know.
1471. 01:03:54 I don't think he has like a background in programming
1472. 01:03:57 but he probably knows a little bit about it.
1473. 01:04:00 He's definitely a nerd.
1474. 01:04:01 - The reason why I asked the question
1475. 01:04:03 is because it's like programmers,
1476. 01:04:04 like they count zero to whatever, right?
1477. 01:04:06 So it is mine, he started at chapter zero
1478. 01:04:08 which is chapter one to the rest of us
1479. 01:04:10 but I don't know if he's a programmer or not.
1480. 01:04:12 I'm just making that up.
1481. 01:04:14 - Okay, yeah, that's fair.
1482. 01:04:15 All right, so then the last one is the conclusion
1483. 01:04:19 and this is pretty short.
1484. 01:04:21 It's sort of the pep rally as you finish the book,
1485. 01:04:25 mentions to appreciate your defaults,
1486. 01:04:28 recognize the things that you don't need to change
1487. 01:04:30 and then ends it which I really appreciated
1488. 01:04:32 with the exhortation that you're actually getting a lot right.
1489. 01:04:36 Almost every productivity book I have ever read.
1490. 01:04:40 - I hadn't thought about this.
1491. 01:04:41 - Yeah, like you picked up this book
1492. 01:04:43 because it's going to solve a problem that you're facing
1493. 01:04:46 and they spend quite a bit just poking you in the eye
1494. 01:04:50 to agitate that problem until you feel like
1495. 01:04:53 this is a huge deal and I need to resolve this now.
1496. 01:04:58 And then what that does is it creates this expectation
1497. 01:05:03 that this book is going to completely change your life
1498. 01:05:06 and then it doesn't and you get mad
1499. 01:05:08 and you're like, what the heck David Allen,
1500. 01:05:09 GTD doesn't work, right?
1501. 01:05:12 - Did you have a specific example?
1502. 01:05:14 I couldn't tell if you had a specific example.
1503. 01:05:16 - Well, I use that one because everybody knows GTD
1504. 01:05:19 and most people I've talked to have had some sort of,
1505. 01:05:23 even if it's working for them now,
1506. 01:05:24 they went through a period where they're like,
1507. 01:05:26 GTD doesn't work, there must be something wrong with me.
1508. 01:05:30 But everybody feels that GTD is the solution
1509. 01:05:33 to their overwhelm problem, which is a huge problem.
1510. 01:05:36 And so you could use other examples there
1511. 01:05:39 to fill in the blanks, but the formula I feel like is the same.
1512. 01:05:44 Poke, poke, poke, poke, poke, poke, poke.
1513. 01:05:46 I'm the guru, here you go, here's the solution.
1514. 01:05:48 It's going to completely change your life.
1515. 01:05:50 And Chris is like, you know what, you're doing okay, buddy.
1516. 01:05:52 - Yeah, very, very positive.
1517. 01:05:55 I love the Zen saying, he has it at the very first part of this.
1518. 01:06:01 If you meditate for 20 minutes, or sorry,
1519. 01:06:03 directs us to sit in meditation for 20 minutes a day
1520. 01:06:05 unless you're too busy and then sit for an hour.
1521. 01:06:07 And I'm like, yeah, I'm like, that's a great,
1522. 01:06:11 that's a great Zen saying, you know.
1523. 01:06:13 The other one I like here is the idea of
1524. 01:06:18 our intentions drive so much of what we're doing,
1525. 01:06:21 it's okay to be like kind of in awe of that.
1526. 01:06:25 Or he says to marvel at them, right?
1527. 01:06:27 And I really like this idea of like,
1528. 01:06:29 there's a lot of this stuff that we think we have control over,
1529. 01:06:34 but we don't really have all that much control over it
1530. 01:06:37 and it's kind of how we're wired.
1531. 01:06:40 Now that doesn't mean we can't have a positive impact on it.
1532. 01:06:42 That's what the nature of this entire book is,
1533. 01:06:44 is like how do we align these things better for us
1534. 01:06:48 and how are we more intentional, right?
1535. 01:06:49 To use the title of the book.
1536. 01:06:51 But like also, it's kind of cool that we're wired the way we are.
1537. 01:06:55 So this gets to his like, his encouraging.
1538. 01:06:57 It's kind of cool that we're wired the way we are.
1539. 01:06:59 Be okay with that, like be okay with that.
1540. 01:07:01 So I like the way he closes out the book.
1541. 01:07:03 You know, I actually think if you smushed chapter eight
1542. 01:07:06 in the conclusion together and just called a conclusion,
1543. 01:07:09 that would be a better ending to the book,
1544. 01:07:11 but I'm okay with it the way you did it.
1545. 01:07:13 - Yeah, I kind of thought that too, but (laughs)
1546. 01:07:17 all right, well, we made it through the book then.
1547. 01:07:21 I guess let's talk about action items.
1548. 01:07:25 So the one action item I have is to create a goal inventory.
1549. 01:07:31 I'm gonna drag you into that one with me
1550. 01:07:33 and then what other action items do you have?
1551. 01:07:36 - Yeah, so I have two more.
1552. 01:07:38 One of them is observe what I'm doing for a week
1553. 01:07:41 and then try to connect it to that intention stack or funnel.
1554. 01:07:45 But try to connect it to the intentions
1555. 01:07:47 and see where those come.
1556. 01:07:49 Even taking it a little step further
1557. 01:07:51 and connecting it to the values.
1558. 01:07:54 So what values is this hitting?
1559. 01:07:57 So that'll be part of just the activities that I'm doing,
1560. 01:08:00 then the goal inventory is a little bit different.
1561. 01:08:03 You know, I have these things that are outlined
1562. 01:08:05 as goals that I'm working on right now.
1563. 01:08:07 And then the last one is can I,
1564. 01:08:11 what does it look like for me to make rolling blocking a habit
1565. 01:08:15 or like make rolling blocking something
1566. 01:08:17 that I'm very, very good at and very consistent at?
1567. 01:08:21 So I'm gonna stew on that.
1568. 01:08:23 I'm not gonna tell you that I'm gonna actually implement that
1569. 01:08:25 but I'm gonna try it for a day or two
1570. 01:08:27 and see how it goes and then, you know,
1571. 01:08:30 see how effective that is if it is,
1572. 01:08:32 I'm gonna keep doing it.
1573. 01:08:33 So those are the three that I have.
1574. 01:08:35 - Very cool.
1575. 01:08:37 All right, style and rating.
1576. 01:08:40 So let me talk a little bit about the style here.
1577. 01:08:44 We've mentioned this throughout but this is maybe
1578. 01:08:47 the most approachable productivity book you will ever read.
1579. 01:08:54 He talks probably a dozen times
1580. 01:08:58 about his weakness for Uber Eats throughout the book.
1581. 01:09:03 - Fast food.
1582. 01:09:04 - Man loves tasty food.
1583. 01:09:06 - He does love tasty food.
1584. 01:09:08 - I love this style and I think,
1585. 01:09:12 I wish more people would take this approach.
1586. 01:09:16 Not that you have to be self-deprecating all the time
1587. 01:09:19 and pointing out all your weaknesses
1588. 01:09:21 but there's just so much communication.
1589. 01:09:26 Like there's a certain vibe
1590. 01:09:28 with the standard productivity book
1591. 01:09:31 where if you're going to try to teach somebody a thing,
1592. 01:09:34 you feel like you have to prove that you're worth listening to
1593. 01:09:39 and Chris doesn't have that.
1594. 01:09:44 Maybe it's because of the success that he's had
1595. 01:09:47 but I don't know, as someone who wants to write a book
1596. 01:09:50 on personal retreats,
1597. 01:09:52 you know, I've been thinking about the outline
1598. 01:09:56 and the marketing for that
1599. 01:09:58 and how it connects to everything else.
1600. 01:10:00 And I think there's just some inherent motivation to,
1601. 01:10:06 well, this is all the social proof.
1602. 01:10:08 This is how many personal retreats I've done,
1603. 01:10:10 yada, yada, yada.
1604. 01:10:11 And after reading this,
1605. 01:10:12 I'm kind of like, no, I'll just share what I do
1606. 01:10:15 and see if it works for me.
1607. 01:10:17 Maybe it'll work for you too.
1608. 01:10:20 I just really like that authentic tone that is shared here.
1609. 01:10:27 And Chris is, even though Ted calls him
1610. 01:10:30 the most productive man you'd ever hope to meet,
1611. 01:10:32 feels like someone that regardless of where you are,
1612. 01:10:36 how successful you are,
1613. 01:10:37 how much you care about productivity,
1614. 01:10:39 you could just bump into them at a coffee shop
1615. 01:10:41 and have a great conversation.
1616. 01:10:42 - So the word that came to my head as you're talking
1617. 01:10:45 and I agree with you completely, it's conversational.
1618. 01:10:48 - Yes.
1619. 01:10:48 - It just felt like a conversational style book
1620. 01:10:51 that was backed with a ton of research
1621. 01:10:53 and then really good, well thought out models.
1622. 01:10:56 - Yeah.
1623. 01:10:57 - Yeah, so conversational.
1624. 01:10:58 - So kind of like you're meeting a friend for coffee
1625. 01:11:02 to talk about intentionality and prior to meeting,
1626. 01:11:06 they read every single relevant research study
1627. 01:11:12 and are telling you about it in the nicest way possible.
1628. 01:11:16 - Yep, yep, yep, yep.
1629. 01:11:18 That's a very good description, yeah.
1630. 01:11:19 - Okay, I also think the topic of this one is,
1631. 01:11:26 well number one, it's probably the most relevant book
1632. 01:11:29 that Chris has written for me
1633. 01:11:31 because the whole values-based productivity thing,
1634. 01:11:36 I mean, I had a product at one point
1635. 01:11:39 called faith-based productivity,
1636. 01:11:40 but I wrestled with, should I call it,
1637. 01:11:41 faith-based productivity or values-based productivity?
1638. 01:11:43 'Cause really, it's what is important to you
1639. 01:11:46 and how do you infuse that as a filter
1640. 01:11:49 for everything else that you do.
1641. 01:11:51 It's the heart of the PCAM stack model
1642. 01:11:54 which is behind everything that I do
1643. 01:11:56 over at Practical PKM.
1644. 01:11:58 Like, this is the book that was written for me.
1645. 01:12:02 Maybe that influences this next statement
1646. 01:12:04 that I am going to say.
1647. 01:12:06 Maybe it's just the fact that Chris now
1648. 01:12:08 has four or five books under his belt,
1649. 01:12:12 but I actually, I told him that this feels
1650. 01:12:17 like the book that he was meant to write.
1651. 01:12:19 In the Legend of Big Advance,
1652. 01:12:21 they talk about finding your authentic swing
1653. 01:12:23 going back to the golf analogy in the chapter zero.
1654. 01:12:26 I feel like this is Chris's authentic swing,
1655. 01:12:30 this book right here.
1656. 01:12:32 So, I like the topic, I like Chris Bailey,
1657. 01:12:35 I like the way he writes.
1658. 01:12:37 I think there is a lot of good stuff in here.
1659. 01:12:40 I think it's a fairly fresh take on productivity.
1660. 01:12:44 And I think there's only a couple of people
1661. 01:12:46 who are maybe talking about this stuff in this way.
1662. 01:12:49 Michael Hyatt maybe would be another one,
1663. 01:12:51 but I like this better than any book that I've ever read
1664. 01:12:53 by Michael Hyatt and I've read a bunch of them.
1665. 01:12:55 I like Michael Hyatt a lot,
1666. 01:12:57 but this is a great book.
1667. 01:12:59 I'm gonna rate this one five stars.
1668. 01:13:02 And I think that pretty much everybody
1669. 01:13:04 in the bookworm audience would.
1670. 01:13:06 If you're listening this far into the podcast,
1671. 01:13:09 if you are interested enough at least to not turn this off,
1672. 01:13:14 I think there's something here for you.
1673. 01:13:16 - Yeah, I think my biggest takeaway from this,
1674. 01:13:19 so I agree with everything you said.
1675. 01:13:21 I talked about the conversational style,
1676. 01:13:23 I agree with everything you said.
1677. 01:13:25 My biggest takeaway from this book
1678. 01:13:27 is it didn't feel like a productivity book.
1679. 01:13:30 Like it didn't read like a productivity book.
1680. 01:13:33 I mean, the tagline is intentional,
1681. 01:13:36 how to finish what you start.
1682. 01:13:38 But it's like, it didn't,
1683. 01:13:40 I don't know, it just felt so much more natural.
1684. 01:13:43 It felt so much more like,
1685. 01:13:45 there was like a bigger meaning behind it,
1686. 01:13:47 if that makes sense.
1687. 01:13:48 Like it wasn't just this like,
1688. 01:13:49 oh, well, I've got these four different models
1689. 01:13:52 and these rules and I'm gonna go wrap a book around it
1690. 01:13:55 and send it out there.
1691. 01:13:56 It was more of like, hey, you actually care.
1692. 01:14:01 And because you care, you're gonna do things.
1693. 01:14:04 And you wanna do these things
1694. 01:14:05 and you wanna do them well.
1695. 01:14:07 So let's talk about how we do those things
1696. 01:14:09 and how we do them well and how we're like,
1697. 01:14:11 and it just felt like,
1698. 01:14:15 and I don't know if it's a season right now
1699. 01:14:17 that I'm in where I'm thinking about this stuff a lot
1700. 01:14:20 and I'm thinking about like the activities that I'm doing
1701. 01:14:22 and the goals that I'm setting
1702. 01:14:23 and the plans that I'm making.
1703. 01:14:24 Or if it's a,
1704. 01:14:27 you know, so like right book at the right time kind of a thing,
1705. 01:14:29 or if he just hit the nail on the head,
1706. 01:14:32 you know, you know, Chris better than I do
1707. 01:14:34 in terms of like, it just felt like it was a natural book
1708. 01:14:40 and you get that through the way it flowed
1709. 01:14:43 from one section to another.
1710. 01:14:44 It made sense.
1711. 01:14:45 There were no like, wait, what just happened?
1712. 01:14:48 Like, why do we do that?
1713. 01:14:49 With the exception of the stack that looks like a funnel.
1714. 01:14:54 So the only--
1715. 01:14:56 - Okay, yeah, I got what you're saying.
1716. 01:14:57 - Yeah.
1717. 01:14:58 - I thought you heard it there for a second.
1718. 01:15:00 - No.
1719. 01:15:01 So what I'm trying to figure out, Mike,
1720. 01:15:03 is do I knock him for making a funnel stack,
1721. 01:15:09 funnel stack, stack funnel?
1722. 01:15:11 So like, do I knock him for that?
1723. 01:15:12 And I don't think I do.
1724. 01:15:14 Like, I really don't think I do because I--
1725. 01:15:16 - I would be totally okay if you decided
1726. 01:15:18 that you were going to because I know like the way you frame
1727. 01:15:21 that at the beginning, like I have an issue with this.
1728. 01:15:24 That's right in chapter one.
1729. 01:15:25 It's gonna affect everything after that.
1730. 01:15:28 And I mean, I, if he and I ever got a chance to talk, right?
1731. 01:15:32 Like, I would ask him the question about like,
1732. 01:15:35 why did you make a stack that looks exactly like a funnel
1733. 01:15:38 and not call it a funnel, right?
1734. 01:15:41 But I would do it in like a joking way,
1735. 01:15:42 like I wouldn't do it in like an aggressive way.
1736. 01:15:44 But no, in all seriousness, there is so much good in here.
1737. 01:15:48 Mike, you said the thing that if people
1738. 01:15:52 make it this far into the episode,
1739. 01:15:53 like 100% read this book,
1740. 01:15:55 if you care at all about the work that you're doing
1741. 01:15:59 and how you're wired and your values
1742. 01:16:02 and all of that stuff goes into the work
1743. 01:16:04 that you're doing or the life that you're living,
1744. 01:16:06 I think you can glean five, six, seven, 10 things
1745. 01:16:10 out of this book that you're like, huh,
1746. 01:16:12 I hadn't thought about that.
1747. 01:16:13 I should look at that.
1748. 01:16:14 Like, I might wanna run that idea.
1749. 01:16:16 I might wanna run that model.
1750. 01:16:17 Like this book is intriguing me
1751. 01:16:21 or in terms of like looking at Chris's other stuff.
1752. 01:16:23 Like, what else has Chris done?
1753. 01:16:25 Do I go back and read some of his other books?
1754. 01:16:27 Like, and when you get a book like that,
1755. 01:16:29 that's a five star book for me.
1756. 01:16:30 Like, I'm easily in a five star book.
1757. 01:16:33 This is a golden book for us without a doubt.
1758. 01:16:37 I would read this one again actually, right?
1759. 01:16:40 So we read a lot of books
1760. 01:16:42 and then that's just the books we read for the show.
1761. 01:16:45 That's not the books we read, you know,
1762. 01:16:46 as gap books or as the other books that we read.
1763. 01:16:49 I would actually prioritize reading this one again
1764. 01:16:51 just 'cause I think there's enough in there
1765. 01:16:53 that it's worth reading again.
1766. 01:16:55 Nice.
1767. 01:16:57 All right, I'm a little bit surprised by that, to be honest,
1768. 01:17:00 but I'll take it.
1769. 01:17:03 No, I thought this was a great book.
1770. 01:17:05 Cool.
1771. 01:17:05 All right, well, let's put intentional on the shelf.
1772. 01:17:08 What's next, Corey?
1773. 01:17:09 So the next book is The Overthinkers Guide
1774. 01:17:13 to Making Decisions by Joseph Nguyen.
1775. 01:17:17 He's written quite a few different books
1776. 01:17:20 all around the idea of thinking,
1777. 01:17:23 don't believe everything you think.
1778. 01:17:25 And he's a fairly popular author,
1779. 01:17:29 a well-known in the, you know,
1780. 01:17:31 kind of the thinking, self-development kind of space.
1781. 01:17:35 And it came out in November of '25.
1782. 01:17:38 So it's relatively new,
1783. 01:17:41 but the full title is The Overthinkers Guide
1784. 01:17:42 to Making Decisions, How to Make Decisions
1785. 01:17:45 Without Losing Your Mind.
1786. 01:17:47 And I'm gonna tell you, like,
1787. 01:17:48 I think the title is funny and interesting,
1788. 01:17:52 and I wanna give it a shot.
1789. 01:17:53 Like I'm intrigued to see what this book does for us
1790. 01:17:57 and whether or not it helps us make decisions
1791. 01:18:00 without losing our mind, Mike.
1792. 01:18:02 - Nice.
1793. 01:18:03 I had not heard of this book before,
1794. 01:18:07 but I had heard of Don't Believe Everything You Think,
1795. 01:18:10 and it fell off my radar,
1796. 01:18:12 but I have since bought both of those
1797. 01:18:14 when I realized it was the same person.
1798. 01:18:17 These look very interesting.
1799. 01:18:21 All right, so my book--
1800. 01:18:22 - This is his last book.
1801. 01:18:22 - I'm sorry. - Go ahead.
1802. 01:18:23 - Can I make one?
1803. 01:18:24 His last book has 22,000 reviews on Amazon
1804. 01:18:29 and 4.6 stars.
1805. 01:18:30 So no, like, I mean, I'm at least encouraged by that.
1806. 01:18:34 I have no idea what we're getting into,
1807. 01:18:35 but I'm encouraged by that.
1808. 01:18:37 - Positive science.
1809. 01:18:38 - Yeah, so you're up next, though.
1810. 01:18:40 What's after that?
1811. 01:18:41 - Yeah, so I had this one picked out,
1812. 01:18:43 but I was kind of like,
1813. 01:18:44 "Eh, do I really wanna do this one?"
1814. 01:18:46 And then during the episode,
1815. 01:18:48 you brought up the burnout piece.
1816. 01:18:51 So I think this is a perfect follow-up to this.
1817. 01:18:54 We're gonna read The End of Burnout,
1818. 01:18:55 Why Work Drains Us and How to Build Better Lives
1819. 01:18:58 by Jonathan Malasich.
1820. 01:19:00 Something that came across my radar a while ago.
1821. 01:19:03 And as I do, when someone I look up to
1822. 01:19:06 recommends a book, I buy it on the spot.
1823. 01:19:08 So it's been sitting on the bookshelf in our bedroom
1824. 01:19:11 for a while as one of those ones
1825. 01:19:13 that I need to read at some point.
1826. 01:19:15 And first I was struggling with the topic of burnout,
1827. 01:19:17 and I was like, "Maybe this is just relevant to me,
1828. 01:19:19 "we shouldn't make this a public thing for bookworm."
1829. 01:19:22 And then you mentioned the thing
1830. 01:19:24 that Chris mentioned or talked about in this book.
1831. 01:19:26 And I think it is a thing.
1832. 01:19:28 And it's worth having a conversation about.
1833. 01:19:31 I have no idea what this book's gonna be any good.
1834. 01:19:33 - Awesome. - Awesome.
1835. 01:19:35 - I don't know if it's gonna be like
1836. 01:19:36 a completely contradictory take
1837. 01:19:38 after what we just read.
1838. 01:19:40 But yeah, let's talk about burnout.
1839. 01:19:43 We can only hope, that's the way.
1840. 01:19:47 So I'm like, "Hey, let's do it, let's see how it goes."
1841. 01:19:50 - Yeah, all right, do you got any gap books?
1842. 01:19:53 - So I do, I don't, for the life of me,
1843. 01:19:55 remember the name of it right now.
1844. 01:19:57 I was trying to look it up real quick before you asked me
1845. 01:20:00 what my gap book was, but I definitely have a gap book
1846. 01:20:05 for that seminary track that I'm doing.
1847. 01:20:07 So like all of my gap book reading for the next four months
1848. 01:20:12 is without a doubt gonna be associated with that.
1849. 01:20:15 And it is reading the Gospels wisely.
1850. 01:20:17 So there you go, I found it in time.
1851. 01:20:19 So it's reading the Gospels wisely by Pennington.
1852. 01:20:23 - All right. - How about you?
1853. 01:20:25 - I, so we are actually recording this less than a week
1854. 01:20:28 after the last episode was recorded.
1855. 01:20:31 So I'm still reading the same fiction book,
1856. 01:20:33 but I am making progress.
1857. 01:20:35 And I think in the back of my,
1858. 01:20:38 I hesitate to share this publicly,
1859. 01:20:39 but my thought is that maybe going forward
1860. 01:20:42 will have the non-fiction books for bookworm
1861. 01:20:45 and the fiction books will be the gap books
1862. 01:20:47 because I'm really liking red rising.
1863. 01:20:50 - Yeah.
1864. 01:20:51 - Yeah, Mike, you know what's gonna happen next, right?
1865. 01:20:54 - What?
1866. 01:20:54 - We're gonna have to do like an other week.
1867. 01:20:57 So we're gonna end up recording every week
1868. 01:20:59 and it's gonna be non-fiction fiction, non-fiction fiction.
1869. 01:21:02 - Non-fiction fiction.
1870. 01:21:04 - I mean, that would actually be kind of fun,
1871. 01:21:08 but that also sounds terrifying
1872. 01:21:10 because I know how much time this takes.
1873. 01:21:14 - We might, we may just start with like every,
1874. 01:21:16 you know, once we get the fiction books done,
1875. 01:21:18 we just record the episode.
1876. 01:21:19 It's like a pop-up episode.
1877. 01:21:20 - Yeah, that's not a bad idea.
1878. 01:21:22 - As opposed to an every week thing.
1879. 01:21:24 - Pro-show episodes or something, I don't know.
1880. 01:21:26 Speaking of which, if you want to support the show,
1881. 01:21:29 you can do so for $7 a month.
1882. 01:21:31 Head over to bookworm.fm/pro.
1883. 01:21:36 When you support the show,
1884. 01:21:37 you get a longer ad-free Pro-show.
1885. 01:21:40 So we have an extra segment every time.
1886. 01:21:43 This time we talked about our everyday carry
1887. 01:21:46 and there's a whole bunch of links in that Pro-show
1888. 01:21:48 from the stuff that Corey and I have in our bags.
1889. 01:21:51 You also get a bootleg version of the show
1890. 01:21:54 that gets released right after we record it live.
1891. 01:21:57 So that is usually about two weeks
1892. 01:22:00 before the episode gets published.
1893. 01:22:03 There's a 4K bookworm wallpaper.
1894. 01:22:06 There's access to my reading master class,
1895. 01:22:09 a two and a half hour workshop that I did.
1896. 01:22:12 And you get all of that for $7 a month.
1897. 01:22:15 So head on over to bookworm.fm/pro
1898. 01:22:18 or patreon.com/bookwormfm.
1899. 01:22:21 And if you are already a pro member,
1900. 01:22:23 thank you so much for helping us keep the lights on.
1901. 01:22:25 We really appreciate it.
1902. 01:22:27 - If you're reading along with us,
1903. 01:22:29 pick up the Overthinkers Guide to Making Decisions
1904. 01:22:31 by Joseph Nguyen and we will talk to you soon.