250: Design Love In by Marcus Buckingham

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1. 00:00:00 Alright, Mike, we are back and we are talking about love, but not in that way.
2. 00:00:06 Right?
3. 00:00:06 We're not talking about love in that way.
4. 00:00:08 Uh, we are thinking about how do we put love into, I would say our professional
5. 00:00:12 relationships and our professional, uh, work activities.
6. 00:00:15 So, um, I hope you're doing well.
7. 00:00:18 Are you excited to talk about love today?
8. 00:00:22 I'm nervous to talk about love today.
9. 00:00:24 Nerves to talk about love.
10. 00:00:26 Cool.
11. 00:00:26 Uh, well, before we do that though, uh, let's do follow up.
12. 00:00:29 And there's not a lot of it, although you did hint at me earlier that you have
13. 00:00:33 a twist to this, but our follow up item from last book is who are we going to
14. 00:00:38 give the book to?
15. 00:00:39 Okay.
16. 00:00:39 So, um, for those who haven't caught up on last episode, uh, it's called what you
17. 00:00:45 were, um, what you were made for.
18. 00:00:48 Okay.
19. 00:00:48 And, uh, we thought this book was good enough that we were going to figure out who
20. 00:00:52 to give it to.
21. 00:00:54 Uh, do you want to go first or do you want me to go first?
22. 00:00:57 Well, I figured out who I was going to give it to.
23. 00:00:59 And I've given away four copies so far.
24. 00:01:01 Why this guy?
25. 00:01:03 Yeah.
26. 00:01:04 Um, so I, when we got done with the, that episode, uh, it kind of hit me that this
27. 00:01:11 would actually be a great book for pretty much anybody who is graduating high
28. 00:01:15 school.
29. 00:01:16 Yep.
30. 00:01:16 I happen to have a senior who's graduating high school.
31. 00:01:20 So I immediately bought six copies of it and have been giving it out to the guys
32. 00:01:26 in his class who I think would, uh, would read it just because of who he is in
33. 00:01:31 the basketball world.
34. 00:01:32 I think it's a little bit weird at all to come to a graduation party and hand
35. 00:01:37 someone a book, especially someone who like, you're not super, super close with.
36. 00:01:42 Hey, I think you should read this.
37. 00:01:45 Um, but yeah, we're, we're doing it.
38. 00:01:49 So he's got, uh, I think six guys in his class.
39. 00:01:53 So we bought six copies.
40. 00:01:54 Not everyone's going to get one.
41. 00:01:56 We actually, uh, one of the guys who had a, had a party.
42. 00:02:00 Um, Toby told me that he's dyslexic.
43. 00:02:02 So he asked if we get the audio book version instead.
44. 00:02:04 So we got, got that so he could listen to it.
45. 00:02:07 And, uh, yeah, we're, we're gifting them to the, the high school seniors.
46. 00:02:11 I'm sure I'll find a few other people cause I have a few extra copies now.
47. 00:02:15 But I thought that was a great idea when I had it.
48. 00:02:19 I agree completely.
49. 00:02:20 Uh, interestingly, you and I are in the same boat here, right?
50. 00:02:24 When you said you already gave away four, I was like, I know who you gave these two.
51. 00:02:27 And, and I was close.
52. 00:02:28 I didn't know it was the other students at Toby's class.
53. 00:02:31 Um, I thought the same thing, my graduating seniors.
54. 00:02:33 Now I don't think it works for all of the graduating seniors.
55. 00:02:36 I can tell you that I had, uh, I had three coming out of my program for two of them.
56. 00:02:39 It doesn't work.
57. 00:02:41 The one, it 100% works.
58. 00:02:42 So it's like he's going to get a copy of it.
59. 00:02:44 And then there may be another, uh, former graduate.
60. 00:02:47 So alum, uh, they graduated a couple of years ago, uh, and he's, he's going to get a copy.
61. 00:02:51 So, uh, that's who we should give the book to.
62. 00:02:53 And really, I think that like 18, 19, 20 to like 30 something year old range of age
63. 00:03:01 is the sweet spot for this book.
64. 00:03:02 I think if you gave, gave people that, uh, they would get a lot of value out of it.
65. 00:03:06 If they read it or they let it sit on a shelf for a year or two or five and then
66. 00:03:10 they go, huh, somebody gave me that book.
67. 00:03:12 I'm going to read that book, which I've done that before.
68. 00:03:14 And that's, and that's a lot of fun too.
69. 00:03:16 Yeah.
70. 00:03:17 It's a lot of fun too.
71. 00:03:19 Alright, well that covers follow up.
72. 00:03:21 So, um, let's get into today's book.
73. 00:03:24 Today we are talking about Marcus Buckingham's design love in.
74. 00:03:29 And Mike, you have read a Marcus Buckingham book before.
75. 00:03:32 Was it for the show or was it just you reading it?
76. 00:03:35 I don't remember.
77. 00:03:37 I think it was for the show, um, blanking on the title,
78. 00:03:41 but I think it was something like love and work and was a, a plus.
79. 00:03:48 And, um, I heard him speak at some virtual event.
80. 00:03:54 I think it was tied to like Dave Ramsey's entree leadership thing.
81. 00:03:58 Okay.
82. 00:03:59 And I thought he was a good speaker and was interested.
83. 00:04:03 It was just like a, like a short 10 minute thing.
84. 00:04:06 So I, uh, looked into what he had done and, and saw that, that book and bought it.
85. 00:04:13 And I didn't really love it.
86. 00:04:16 Okay.
87. 00:04:16 All right.
88. 00:04:18 Um, that was my recollection of it anyways, but I, I don't remember
89. 00:04:21 anything more specific than, than that.
90. 00:04:24 Yeah.
91. 00:04:24 My, my quick Googling is you are correct.
92. 00:04:26 It's love plus work, how to find what you love, love what you do and do it for
93. 00:04:30 the rest of your life.
94. 00:04:30 And this was in 2022.
95. 00:04:32 And now we are doing the follow up to that, uh, which is design love in.
96. 00:04:36 Now, what I think is interesting about this book, Mike, is he describes and we
97. 00:04:41 might be bleeding into the introduction, but that's okay.
98. 00:04:43 Um, he describes the fact that this book is kind of the culmination of 25 years
99. 00:04:49 of his, of his life and work, right?
100. 00:04:51 Like that he's done a bunch of this research and he's, he's done all this
101. 00:04:54 stuff and he's going to bring this in and he's going to tell us kind of how to put
102. 00:04:57 love into not even just the work environment, I would say, but put it into
103. 00:05:03 experiences.
104. 00:05:04 And that's essentially what the nature of this book is.
105. 00:05:08 It has seven chapters, then an intro and an epilogue, um, wrapped around it.
106. 00:05:14 Uh, they, the first, I'm trying to remember the parts because I didn't
107. 00:05:18 write down the parts.
108. 00:05:19 Um, so I think it's chapters one through three are the initial part where he's
109. 00:05:24 describing the framework, which he calls the DLI framework or the design love
110. 00:05:28 in framework.
111. 00:05:29 Yeah.
112. 00:05:29 And then that is, that is love deconstructed.
113. 00:05:32 Yep.
114. 00:05:32 Okay.
115. 00:05:32 And then the second part is chapters four through seven or four through the
116. 00:05:36 epilogue.
117. 00:05:36 And what's that one called?
118. 00:05:37 How to design love as a leader.
119. 00:05:39 Okay.
120. 00:05:39 So that is four through seven and the epilogue is separate technically.
121. 00:05:42 Okay.
122. 00:05:43 So we see this framework in the first three chapters and then we see the
123. 00:05:48 application in the, in the last four chapters.
124. 00:05:51 Um, do you have anything else that you want to hit on before we get into the
125. 00:05:55 introduction?
126. 00:05:57 Well, I will ask you, because you mentioned that he said this is the culmination
127. 00:06:01 of 25 years, yada, yada, yada.
128. 00:06:04 Um, knowing that he has an agency that works with companies to do this.
129. 00:06:12 Do you, how, how true do you think that statement is?
130. 00:06:17 Which, which, like, what in specifics am I evaluating?
131. 00:06:21 Do you feel like this is the thing that his whole life has been building
132. 00:06:25 towards?
133. 00:06:26 Or do you feel like this is the thing that he's doing to make money right now?
134. 00:06:31 No, so I think, like, I mean, I have no idea, right?
135. 00:06:35 Like, so the, the true answer is I have no idea, but like I would say that if
136. 00:06:40 you look at the trajectory, love plus work, and oh, by the way, we're doing
137. 00:06:44 these things and we're noticing patterns in the data that we're collecting,
138. 00:06:48 I think this is the next natural, what book could I publish next or what book
139. 00:06:52 could I write next?
140. 00:06:53 Like I think that's very true.
141. 00:06:56 Yeah.
142. 00:06:56 And so this is really nitpicky, but that, if it were described that way, I feel
143. 00:07:00 like I go into it a little bit more positively than this is the culmination
144. 00:07:06 of 25 years worth of experience.
145. 00:07:08 Because that makes it feel like this is the book that he was born to write.
146. 00:07:13 Everything else that comes before this, throw that all out, doesn't matter.
147. 00:07:18 And I just, I don't think that's true.
148. 00:07:20 Yeah, I think this is very much a, like your intuition, I think lines with mine.
149. 00:07:25 This is very much a, hey, we did all this research and we found these patterns.
150. 00:07:28 And I've been thinking about this love idea and here we go.
151. 00:07:31 We're going to design, we're going to design love in.
152. 00:07:34 What I didn't realize was that this guy's behind strength finder and another
153. 00:07:39 like really popular survey tool.
154. 00:07:41 I don't remember what the other really, yeah.
155. 00:07:43 Okay.
156. 00:07:43 So I've not used stand out, but I've used strength finder.
157. 00:07:46 So Mark is bucking him.
158. 00:07:48 His company designed this and he was like integral into this.
159. 00:07:52 That's the way I remember it being described.
160. 00:07:54 Is that, is that right, Mike?
161. 00:07:56 Well, the strengths finder, his initial mentor was.
162. 00:08:02 Whoever founded the, the strengths finder company.
163. 00:08:04 Okay. Okay.
164. 00:08:06 I don't remember the connection, then, or the path from there to stand out to, to
165. 00:08:11 hear, but yeah, he's got a legit background in assessments.
166. 00:08:16 So that's exciting.
167. 00:08:18 Yeah, yeah, exactly for me.
168. 00:08:21 Okay.
169. 00:08:22 Let's get into the introduction.
170. 00:08:23 If you're good with it.
171. 00:08:24 Yep.
172. 00:08:25 All right, so the introduction is what now must leaders do?
173. 00:08:29 And really in this, he's describing the fact that, you know, it's 25 years
174. 00:08:35 in the making and it addresses the question about, you know, what, what's
175. 00:08:39 hidden underneath all of these things.
176. 00:08:41 He clearly states his goal for the book.
177. 00:08:44 My goal for this book is to teach you the skill to design love in.
178. 00:08:47 So he is thinking about it from a practical standpoint.
179. 00:08:49 He's going to tell you the framework, but he really wants you to start doing this.
180. 00:08:53 Uh, he, he wants you to know that, um, leadership, he defines leadership.
181. 00:08:57 And Mike, I want to, I want to jump to you as soon as I make this definition.
182. 00:09:00 Cause I'm intrigued with what you think, uh, leadership is the craft of shaping
183. 00:09:04 experiences that shape human behavior.
184. 00:09:07 Leaders, the most effective ones are experience makers.
185. 00:09:10 So he makes this direct connection between the idea of leadership and
186. 00:09:13 experience that leaders, um, aren't necessarily about all the things we think
187. 00:09:18 leaders are doing their experience makers and they make experiences.
188. 00:09:21 And Mike, I would love to know what you think about that.
189. 00:09:23 I think it's generally true.
190. 00:09:26 Um, it feels a little bit weird to simplify it that much, but I think he's
191. 00:09:32 probably right.
192. 00:09:33 I heard it said that when you are, if you're, I mean, a leader is somebody
193. 00:09:39 who has followers, right?
194. 00:09:40 So if people are going to follow you, they have to believe that you can get
195. 00:09:46 them where they want to go, whether they are people you are paying in your
196. 00:09:50 organization or volunteers at, at church, doesn't really matter.
197. 00:09:56 There, there's got to be some belief there.
198. 00:09:59 And I believe that belief is probably tied to experiences that people have with
199. 00:10:04 you in that leadership position.
200. 00:10:08 So I don't think I have anything to say that that's wrong.
201. 00:10:13 I also don't know that I, I love it though.
202. 00:10:16 I, I guess I'm a little bit mixed on it, but it's, it, it's okay.
203. 00:10:20 Yeah.
204. 00:10:21 I don't have no, I don't have notes about whether he made a hard line between
205. 00:10:25 leaders and managers.
206. 00:10:27 The, the, the biggest one I have here is that leadership is not about
207. 00:10:31 clarifying expectations or motivating teams.
208. 00:10:34 I think about that more as like managing other people, you know, and being
209. 00:10:37 responsible for other people where leadership is then the experience making.
210. 00:10:41 I think that I, he could have made that stronger, right?
211. 00:10:45 Like, okay, here's, here's what leaders do.
212. 00:10:47 Here's what managers do.
213. 00:10:48 I want to delineate between those two things.
214. 00:10:50 And I want to say like leaders are about bringing in this experience or thinking
215. 00:10:55 about the overall experience.
216. 00:10:56 Whereas your managers are about like, okay, let's keep everybody on track.
217. 00:10:59 Let's clarify the expectations.
218. 00:11:01 Let's like do the assessments and, and this kind of things.
219. 00:11:03 I think he could have been a little bit stronger there.
220. 00:11:06 Um, he, he does go hard on this idea of love, okay?
221. 00:11:11 And my evidence for this is why devote your precious strengths to a
222. 00:11:16 loveless organization.
223. 00:11:17 I mean, like he's, he's like hard on this.
224. 00:11:19 He's like, if you're working in a place and you don't feel the love, get out, like
225. 00:11:24 change it, like get, like so he, he goes hard on this idea that, um, we need to be
226. 00:11:30 in a loving, um, a loving organization.
227. 00:11:34 I, I think later on he's going to describe love.
228. 00:11:39 If I'm remembering correctly, like he's going to actually describe what
229. 00:11:41 love to us, uh, what he thinks love is.
230. 00:11:44 And I'm, I'm intrigued by where we're going, uh, in this one so far.
231. 00:11:49 Yeah, I'm trying to find that, that definition.
232. 00:11:52 Oh, there it is.
233. 00:11:53 It's not till chapter two.
234. 00:11:56 Yeah.
235. 00:11:56 So, um, at the beginning, uh, I'll, I'll share that.
236. 00:12:00 I guess that I, I think the, the definition, like the king in on the idea of, of love
237. 00:12:06 and the focus on experience making and, and tying it to the definition of leadership,
238. 00:12:11 the thing that makes me a little bit uncomfortable about that is, um, at this
239. 00:12:15 point in the book anyways, is it seems to be very feelings focused.
240. 00:12:21 And I feel like, uh, it's not necessarily wrong, but feels like a different approach
241. 00:12:29 than a lot of the culture stuff that I've gone through.
242. 00:12:33 Cause I mean, I loved certain aspects of, uh, the integrator role at the digital marketing
243. 00:12:42 agency and the, the thing that I love more than anything else was the, the culture
244. 00:12:47 building stuff, getting clear on the values and trying to communicate that through
245. 00:12:52 the rest of the, the team and seeing people make decisions with rationales.
246. 00:12:57 Oh, this is in alignment with this value.
247. 00:12:59 Like that's so exciting to me.
248. 00:13:03 And I feel like, uh, the focus on values is the way that I would typically approach
249. 00:13:10 this.
250. 00:13:10 He's saying focus on love.
251. 00:13:12 And I don't, again, that maybe when we get into the definitions, they're not
252. 00:13:14 necessarily at odds.
253. 00:13:16 But at this point, it kind of feels like they could be.
254. 00:13:19 No, I'm envisioning scenarios in my head where, well, what if the person doesn't
255. 00:13:23 like this thing that's going to, going to happen?
256. 00:13:26 They think that loving them is focused on, on this, but then ultimately that goes
257. 00:13:32 directly against the thing that you're trying to build in the, the organization.
258. 00:13:38 I don't know.
259. 00:13:38 He's got a lot more success than I have in the, the business world.
260. 00:13:43 Um, some of the stories that he tells in here are pretty crazy.
261. 00:13:46 I don't remember in the introduction.
262. 00:13:48 If he, we start to hear the story about, about Josh.
263. 00:13:52 I don't think so.
264. 00:13:53 I think Josh comes in, it may not be, though, chapter two, right?
265. 00:13:58 At the beginning, I thought, um, pretty sure.
266. 00:14:02 It's, it's, uh, well, I guess I didn't write down anything from that story.
267. 00:14:07 He brings it back later on and you find out that it's actually a really big
268. 00:14:10 company.
269. 00:14:10 I was going to say like it's actually way more meaningful at the end of the book
270. 00:14:13 than it is.
271. 00:14:14 Like he told me that at the beginning of the book, I'd have been like, Oh man.
272. 00:14:16 Like I'd probably paid a lot more attention to it.
273. 00:14:19 So yeah, that's a, an unexpected flaw.
274. 00:14:21 Okay.
275. 00:14:22 So before we move on to chapter one, so in the pro show, we talked about the
276. 00:14:26 growth intensive that you just went to.
277. 00:14:28 Yeah, would you say that you loved the growth intensive and trust me,
278. 00:14:33 there's a, there's a reason why I'm doing this.
279. 00:14:35 And this will be a spiral that happens the entire way through the show.
280. 00:14:38 Would you say you love the growth intensive?
281. 00:14:41 Um, yes, I would say that's accurate.
282. 00:14:44 Stop.
283. 00:14:45 Okay.
284. 00:14:45 Cool.
285. 00:14:45 All right.
286. 00:14:45 So we're going to talk about that as we go on.
287. 00:14:47 So you would say you loved the growth intensive.
288. 00:14:49 Okay.
289. 00:14:49 Uh, chapter one, experiences, drive behavior, drive outcomes.
290. 00:14:53 So essentially what he's trying to do, again, he's laying the foundation here
291. 00:14:56 for this idea of how to make experiences that, that are loving experiences.
292. 00:15:02 He's got to lay this foundation about experiences, make us do things that
293. 00:15:07 make outcomes in, in the company.
294. 00:15:10 Um, and he, he maps that out, uh, but he says in here, want the best outcomes,
295. 00:15:14 design the best experiences and where I, where I'm interested in, in this whole
296. 00:15:19 chapter is like, well, well, duh, right?
297. 00:15:21 Like, like that, like, yeah, that makes total sense.
298. 00:15:23 Like if we want the best outcomes, we've got to design the best, best experiences.
299. 00:15:26 So I find myself asking as I'm reading this chapter, well, why don't we design
300. 00:15:30 the best experiences?
301. 00:15:32 Like I think about things that I do in life and I think about, you know, whatever
302. 00:15:36 it might be, whether it's, you know, with my family or whether it's, you know,
303. 00:15:40 with my, my job as an academic or whatever it is, it's like, why don't we
304. 00:15:44 design the best experiences?
305. 00:15:45 What prevents us from that?
306. 00:15:46 And I don't know about you, but I immediately start to get just hundreds of
307. 00:15:50 like, Oh, we don't do it because of this and because of this and this reason
308. 00:15:53 and this reason, and like, Mike, I can line those reasons up all day long.
309. 00:15:58 But at the same time, I think Marcus Buckingham is right.
310. 00:16:02 Like if we want the right outcomes, why aren't we designing better experiences?
311. 00:16:06 And then I go, Oh, yeah, because of this and this and this.
312. 00:16:09 And I go, okay, how do we, how do we get ourselves out of this doom loop?
313. 00:16:12 Because we're in a doom loop right now.
314. 00:16:14 And how do we get ourselves out of there?
315. 00:16:16 Yeah, there's a couple of important things that he defines here.
316. 00:16:19 So one is an experience that is owned by the person, a series of moments
317. 00:16:24 affecting memory, meaning, emotion, and action.
318. 00:16:27 And then there's a moment, which is a chunk of an experience, a single
319. 00:16:30 interaction prompting an immediate reaction.
320. 00:16:32 And then there's a touch point, which is the raw materials of experiences.
321. 00:16:35 Any sensory element of an experience perceived by the person.
322. 00:16:40 So I think you're right that he's right to a certain degree.
323. 00:16:48 So this is where I'm a little bit confused, because he also talks in here
324. 00:16:54 about the rating of experiences from one, I absolutely hated this to five.
325. 00:17:01 I absolutely love this.
326. 00:17:02 Yep.
327. 00:17:03 Now one of my jobs in a previous life, working with other companies was to help
328. 00:17:08 them implement the net promoter score.
329. 00:17:11 Are you familiar with this idea?
330. 00:17:12 Yeah, we use that.
331. 00:17:13 That's how I'm essentially rated as a faculty member.
332. 00:17:17 OK, so net promoter, though, has a very specific formula.
333. 00:17:20 It's those things you get one to 10.
334. 00:17:23 And if how likely are you to recommend this brand?
335. 00:17:26 Nine and 10, those are your promoters.
336. 00:17:29 Seven and eighths, those are neutrals.
337. 00:17:30 One through six is actually negative.
338. 00:17:34 And I forget the exact formula, but you take like the number of promoters
339. 00:17:40 divided by like the number of detractors.
340. 00:17:43 And, you know, it's either positive or negative, a certain percentage.
341. 00:17:48 OK, and the best companies in the world have plus, I don't know, 50 percent,
342. 00:17:54 something like that.
343. 00:17:55 Every once in a while, you'll see a creator like David Porel talk about his
344. 00:17:58 right of passage and our net promoter score is higher than Apple and whatever.
345. 00:18:03 And like, that's not exactly apples to apples there.
346. 00:18:06 Yeah.
347. 00:18:06 Yeah.
348. 00:18:07 Yeah.
349. 00:18:08 But anyways, like there's a specific formula to that.
350. 00:18:10 And so that's kind of what I was thinking of when I when he's describing this,
351. 00:18:15 except it's simpler.
352. 00:18:16 It's one to five.
353. 00:18:17 His whole thing is focus on the fives.
354. 00:18:20 And that makes a lot of sense.
355. 00:18:22 Discard the, the fours are the same as the threes.
356. 00:18:25 They're not the same as the five.
357. 00:18:27 So maybe that's a little bit different how people would typically think about this.
358. 00:18:30 But then it's kind of like all of the things that you are optimizing for in your
359. 00:18:35 business are based off of the things that those fives tell you.
360. 00:18:40 And on the one hand, I feel like that, that makes sense.
361. 00:18:49 Like I, that's the whole idea behind net promoter, but also the way he describes
362. 00:18:54 it in this book also feels like that's the only thing that matters.
363. 00:18:58 And I'm not sure that's actually true.
364. 00:19:00 You know, everywhere I've talked about net promoter score, yeah, you want a net
365. 00:19:04 promoter score, like how likely are your customers going to recommend you?
366. 00:19:09 How likely are the people who work here to recommend that their friends apply
367. 00:19:14 for an open position?
368. 00:19:15 You know, it's not just customer satisfaction per se.
369. 00:19:20 But also I've never been in a company or an organization where the entire company
370. 00:19:27 was based off of what people put in the net promoter score feedback.
371. 00:19:32 Like that feels weird to me.
372. 00:19:35 And I, I don't know, maybe it's the word that's coming to mind here is like
373. 00:19:42 a privileged business position.
374. 00:19:45 Like you've got enough resources that you can handle the tumultuous in between
375. 00:19:52 times while you key in on that.
376. 00:19:57 I feel like if you're struggling to make ends meet, this is probably not the right
377. 00:20:04 approach, but I don't know exactly how to articulate why that is.
378. 00:20:11 Well, and I, I can see where you're coming from on that in terms of, you know,
379. 00:20:15 if you're a resource strapped organization, this becomes really, really hard.
380. 00:20:21 Although I still think that his, his point in here makes, uh, makes sense.
381. 00:20:25 So one of the things he talks about when he talks about these ratings is a lot
382. 00:20:28 of people will try to do, take the ones and twos and move them to fours and fives.
383. 00:20:34 Like they're trying to take those low scores and move them up to which he says
384. 00:20:37 hard, no, he says, take the fours and make them fives, like keep the fives, fives,
385. 00:20:43 take the fours and make them's five.
386. 00:20:45 And that's what you really want to focus on because the fives are the only thing
387. 00:20:49 you care about.
388. 00:20:50 That's where you get into what you just said, right?
389. 00:20:52 Like is the fives are all we care about and we want to make sure that the fives are
390. 00:20:55 the right fives and that they are, that they remain, they remain fives.
391. 00:21:00 Like the way, in the way words it is, um, we'll be able to know the kinds
392. 00:21:03 of extremely positive experiences and extremely positive outcomes from the fives,
393. 00:21:07 right?
394. 00:21:07 And that's what we want to, want to drive home.
395. 00:21:10 Like I, I think about like, I guess where I lose connection with this mic,
396. 00:21:15 and maybe this is what you're getting at where there's connection with this is
397. 00:21:17 when I try to like put the rubber to the road and I go like, okay, how would I
398. 00:21:21 implement this in environment X?
399. 00:21:24 Yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't really know.
400. 00:21:27 Like I don't really know how I'd implement this in environment X.
401. 00:21:29 And I know he gives us later on in the book, not to put the cart before the horse,
402. 00:21:32 but he gives us these like DLI metric things that, but it's like, I don't know.
403. 00:21:37 Those felt, I felt like there needed to be more there for those, but we'll, we'll
404. 00:21:42 get to those, we'll get to those later.
405. 00:21:44 So yeah, yeah.
406. 00:21:45 Like I think the premise here is good.
407. 00:21:48 Like the, there are these experience experiences that drive behaviors that
408. 00:21:52 drive outcomes and then they're made up of these moments and these touchpoints.
409. 00:21:57 And like, I think all of this makes sense.
410. 00:21:58 Like all of this is, is jiving with, with me.
411. 00:22:01 But the bigger picture is where I'm, where I'm struggling to put all this
412. 00:22:06 and wrap all this together.
413. 00:22:08 100%.
414. 00:22:09 And the fact that it's based off of kind of these informal surveys on a scale from
415. 00:22:15 one to five, I think there is one right at the beginning of the book, but I can't
416. 00:22:19 remember, I can't remember.
417. 00:22:20 There are several different, what does he call them indexes?
418. 00:22:24 Yeah.
419. 00:22:25 That he uses and they're, they're all, they all feel very, uh, very fluffy to me.
420. 00:22:34 Not what you'd expect from someone who helped develop the strengths finder.
421. 00:22:38 And maybe that's because that's what they need to be.
422. 00:22:41 Like I, I don't know.
423. 00:22:42 I'm, I don't know in this situation.
424. 00:22:44 I don't have enough experience or, or knowledge in, in this world.
425. 00:22:47 So, uh, you ready to move to chapter two?
426. 00:22:50 Yeah, let's do it.
427. 00:22:51 Okay.
428. 00:22:51 So loving versus unloving.
429. 00:22:53 And this is where he's going to actually define love.
430. 00:22:55 He says, love is the deep and unwavering commitment to the flourishing of a human.
431. 00:23:00 Okay.
432. 00:23:01 So love is the deep and unwavering commitment to the flourishing of a, of a human.
433. 00:23:05 Uh, he basically, which human.
434. 00:23:10 It's just as a human.
435. 00:23:12 I know that's part of my problem with who you optimizing for.
436. 00:23:16 Oh, yeah.
437. 00:23:16 So are you, well, and this is where I think the ambiguity might be in his favor
438. 00:23:21 because like it could be the employee or it could be the customer.
439. 00:23:25 Or it could be, you know, the, I don't know, like whoever else it might be.
440. 00:23:29 He really talks about employees and customers.
441. 00:23:31 Yeah.
442. 00:23:31 This is the primary, uh, target of this, of all this.
443. 00:23:35 Um, he talks about that love is not only predictive.
444. 00:23:37 It's proactive.
445. 00:23:38 A loving mindset is, uh, one that sees you and sees each human, uh, and
446. 00:23:43 utterly unique combination of possibilities.
447. 00:23:46 Okay.
448. 00:23:46 Like that we get a little bit to, um, like you said, I think you said the word
449. 00:23:53 fluffy before and I'm going to go, I'm going to stick with a fluffy.
450. 00:23:55 I think we get a little bit too fluffy, uh, for me here.
451. 00:23:59 And I, I don't know what to do with it, but we get a little bit too.
452. 00:24:01 Like, Oh, this is cute.
453. 00:24:02 Like this is, this is good.
454. 00:24:04 I agree with the general premise of this, but like I don't like the language of it.
455. 00:24:08 And I'm totally cool with love, like I don't have any problem with love, but I
456. 00:24:11 just, I, I struggled to make the connection between Chick-fil-A saying it's
457. 00:24:19 my pleasure and like caring about serving and serving and serving, whether
458. 00:24:23 you have that and how that wraps into the idea of love.
459. 00:24:27 And the reason I use Chick-fil-A is because Chick-fil-A is the example he uses.
460. 00:24:30 So it's like, and how that wraps into the idea of love or Disney parks, right?
461. 00:24:33 Later on, he's going to talk about Disney parks and about how, you know,
462. 00:24:36 if you, if the, um, park employee doesn't stop hugging until the customer stops
463. 00:24:44 hugging or the little kids stop talking, is that loving?
464. 00:24:47 I don't know, like I'm, I'm kind of, I just don't know how I feel about it.
465. 00:24:51 Like, I'm, I guess I'm, I need to read it again.
466. 00:24:53 Maybe I, or I don't know, like maybe I just need to process more.
467. 00:24:57 Yeah.
468. 00:24:58 Well, I think, uh, the motive matters here.
469. 00:25:02 He's got a love continuum in this chapter where on the left side of the graph is, um,
470. 00:25:10 exploitative immoral behavior in the middle is a moral or transactional behavior.
471. 00:25:15 And on the right is moral or loving behavior.
472. 00:25:20 So there's an implicit argument here that loving other people is the moral slash
473. 00:25:25 ethical thing to do.
474. 00:25:28 And I don't disagree, um, with that necessarily.
475. 00:25:32 But again, it kind of, you have to decide who are you trying to, who, who do you
476. 00:25:38 love most?
477. 00:25:41 Well, your employees are the customer or like, you know, I mean, like that,
478. 00:25:43 this is a really tricky, tricky one to do with.
479. 00:25:46 It is, it is.
480. 00:25:47 We have to take a tangent here.
481. 00:25:49 I'm going to come out strong, Mike.
482. 00:25:50 And I'm going to say that I did not like any figure in this book.
483. 00:25:56 Like he could have removed all of the figures in this book.
484. 00:25:59 And I'd have been like, okay, like I wouldn't have missed out on anything.
485. 00:26:02 At least that's my perspective.
486. 00:26:04 I don't think any of the figures were valuable enough to really put in there.
487. 00:26:09 Um, that's, uh, I'll come hard on that.
488. 00:26:12 Yeah, I don't think the, the figures were, were great.
489. 00:26:16 The visuals didn't do a lot for me either.
490. 00:26:19 Um, there is also a section in this chapter, though.
491. 00:26:24 About, uh, the, uh, where AI fits.
492. 00:26:28 I thought that was great.
493. 00:26:29 We are so on the same page.
494. 00:26:30 Cause that's exactly like that's before we leave this, we have to talk about AI.
495. 00:26:33 So go ahead.
496. 00:26:33 Least through it.
497. 00:26:34 Yep.
498. 00:26:35 So he made the point that AI will always be aligned with someone's value
499. 00:26:40 system, and I think that's important to, to remember.
500. 00:26:44 Uh, and then when inserting AI, he has three things to, to, uh, I guess
501. 00:26:50 they're like best practices.
502. 00:26:51 He says to use transparency, um, use mimicry and use empathic overreach.
503. 00:26:57 Uh, essentially be intentional about how you're using AI and care about the
504. 00:27:05 effect that it has on your messaging with the people who receive it.
505. 00:27:09 And that I come, I completely, uh, agree with.
506. 00:27:12 I think that's actually pretty interesting.
507. 00:27:14 I've been thinking a lot about AI because there tends to be a couple
508. 00:27:18 different categories of, of people who, who talk about it.
509. 00:27:22 There's the people who are like, well, this can, I'll use this for my, my
510. 00:27:30 unimportant work that I don't really want to do and it can crank through that
511. 00:27:34 stuff for me so that I can focus on the, the creative stuff.
512. 00:27:38 And then there are the people who are like, this is amazing.
513. 00:27:41 And it does everything for me.
514. 00:27:44 And they're unashamed that I didn't write this, you know, AI did it, did it for me.
515. 00:27:49 And I think the ideal is somewhere in the middle where you're using it to amplify
516. 00:27:54 your humanity, amplify the, the love, I guess is another way to, to say that.
517. 00:27:58 So I think I, I, I kind of am aligned with them in, in terms of where this, this
518. 00:28:04 fits, um, and that's what I would encourage people to, the approach I would
519. 00:28:07 encourage people to take another way of framing this, by the way, um, I listened
520. 00:28:11 to Mac power users the other day.
521. 00:28:14 And Marco was on there talking about this app that he created, like just for
522. 00:28:19 him, himself, and he used AI to do it.
523. 00:28:21 And it was interesting because when you described it, he's a developer, right?
524. 00:28:24 He developed overcast.
525. 00:28:26 So he said that I developed this thing, right?
526. 00:28:30 And he's talking about how he developed it.
527. 00:28:31 And then he kind of throws an, Oh, with a little bit of help from Claude.
528. 00:28:35 Okay.
529. 00:28:35 So how much did Claude actually help?
530. 00:28:38 Kind of irrelevant, but he's viewing it as this is a thing that, you know,
531. 00:28:42 helped me do what I was going to do anyways.
532. 00:28:44 And then there are people who are non-developers and they're ashamed of the
533. 00:28:49 fact that they use Claude to make stuff because there are developers, not
534. 00:28:54 Marco specifically developers saying, well, if you just vibe code something
535. 00:28:59 and you share it with the world, that's irresponsible.
536. 00:29:02 You got to know how to support every line of that code.
537. 00:29:04 And I'm like, no, you don't tell people, right?
538. 00:29:08 You need to be transparent with people and be like, I vibe good.
539. 00:29:10 Exactly.
540. 00:29:11 Here it is, right?
541. 00:29:12 This is useful for me.
542. 00:29:13 I'll share it with you.
543. 00:29:14 Maybe it's useful for you too, right?
544. 00:29:16 And so like it kind of hit me that they're actually very, the way that they're
545. 00:29:21 using it is probably very similar because they both, the way that they
546. 00:29:25 approach the problem, like what they want them want to make.
547. 00:29:28 That's where they're, they're identical, I would say.
548. 00:29:31 And then if you can define that problem, hey, I can help you craft the, it can
549. 00:29:36 figure out the, the how that's actually really, really exciting.
550. 00:29:41 And I think a parallel is with, with this stuff too, because really it ties
551. 00:29:46 back to another idea that he shares in this chapter of the return on intent,
552. 00:29:49 intent and people's perception of it are important.
553. 00:29:52 So what are you using the tool to do?
554. 00:29:55 Who is it in service of?
555. 00:29:58 But I think if you are truly in service of other people and you are
556. 00:30:01 trying to love them, people will applaud your use of AI and not be like, Oh, look,
557. 00:30:05 there's some slop.
558. 00:30:06 I noticed this.
559. 00:30:07 Let me, let me give you a key example of this.
560. 00:30:10 If, if I use AI to answer low level advising questions for the students at
561. 00:30:15 CCU, no one's going to come to me and be like, you're unloving.
562. 00:30:19 Because yeah, because the AI was answering low level questions, right?
563. 00:30:23 Now, if I took the student and I said, Hey, you've got this really, really hard
564. 00:30:26 scheduling plan of study problem, right?
565. 00:30:28 Like figuring out how you're going to get out of here in four years and all
566. 00:30:30 this stuff, go, go use the AI, like go let the AI figure that out.
567. 00:30:33 They're going to look at me and like, wait, you're not going to help me?
568. 00:30:36 Like you're not going to help me at all.
569. 00:30:37 But like the whole like, Oh, this happened the other day.
570. 00:30:41 And how do I, how do I solve it?
571. 00:30:42 Like who's the email address that I email?
572. 00:30:45 Just go as the, go as the chat box.
573. 00:30:46 You'll get like, you'll get an answer so much faster than you will for me.
574. 00:30:49 And you'll be happy and I'll be happy.
575. 00:30:51 But back to the point of what he's describing here.
576. 00:30:55 Most of the time, when I have a problem with AI, it's in mimicry or it's an
577. 00:31:00 em, em, em, em, empathic overreach.
578. 00:31:03 I had trouble saying that one.
579. 00:31:04 Like it's overly like, I'm so sorry that I know you're not like you're a machine.
580. 00:31:10 Like you're not really, really sorry.
581. 00:31:11 You just screwed up.
582. 00:31:12 Like you looked at the wrong thing and you analyze this stuff wrong.
583. 00:31:15 Or like when it, when it tries to be, you know, this like counselor or when it
584. 00:31:20 tries to be something and I'm like, Nah, like that's not what I'm, that's
585. 00:31:23 not what I'm looking for. So I think he gets those three, you know, he
586. 00:31:25 nails those three in terms of being relevant to our modern times.
587. 00:31:30 If that's the way I'll say that.
588. 00:31:31 Yeah.
589. 00:31:32 Yeah.
590. 00:31:33 All right.
591. 00:31:33 Let's talk about the feelings of love chapter three.
592. 00:31:36 So in chapter three, we have the five feelings of love.
593. 00:31:39 They are control, harmony, significance, warmth of others and growth.
594. 00:31:46 Now this is the important in my mind.
595. 00:31:49 I want to say the most important part of the, of the book, but it's like,
596. 00:31:53 the hinch, the linchpin of the book in terms of, in terms of what it does is it,
597. 00:31:57 it's going to move us to the next section.
598. 00:32:00 He's going to refer back to these ideas of control, harmony, significance,
599. 00:32:05 warmth of others and growth.
600. 00:32:06 So real quick, let's, let's go through what those are control.
601. 00:32:10 What is this world and how do I work it?
602. 00:32:12 Okay.
603. 00:32:12 Right.
604. 00:32:12 So we got this idea, which I agree that if you remove that from somebody,
605. 00:32:17 they might feel that's unloving.
606. 00:32:19 Like I think that that kind of makes sense.
607. 00:32:21 Yeah. And then as we go, let's also talk about the, when this,
608. 00:32:27 when this is absent, what people feel, because that's part of that same visual.
609. 00:32:31 So when people don't have control, they feel powerless.
610. 00:32:34 Okay.
611. 00:32:35 So you'll have to help me with that one because I didn't, I didn't capture that visual.
612. 00:32:37 Okay.
613. 00:32:38 Okay.
614. 00:32:38 So control in a world, what's in the world and how do I work it?
615. 00:32:42 When they don't have it, they feel powerless.
616. 00:32:44 Okay.
617. 00:32:44 Harmony, do you know what I'm feeling and do you care?
618. 00:32:48 And when they don't have that one, Mike, what do they feel?
619. 00:32:50 It's jarring.
620. 00:32:51 OK, uh, significance.
621. 00:32:53 Uh, do you know my story and do you care?
622. 00:32:56 And then the negative version of that is being unseen.
623. 00:32:59 OK, warmth of others.
624. 00:33:00 Who's with me and how can they help?
625. 00:33:03 Yep.
626. 00:33:03 And the negative version of that is you feel isolated.
627. 00:33:06 OK.
628. 00:33:06 And then growth, uh, how will I be more capable tomorrow?
629. 00:33:09 Yep.
630. 00:33:10 And the negative version of that is stagnant.
631. 00:33:12 And then the visual, they've got these five blocks and the order here matters.
632. 00:33:16 You go from one to five.
633. 00:33:19 And at any point, if you don't have that, the visual kind of implies that it goes
634. 00:33:24 down and then it goes back up and you go back to the beginning.
635. 00:33:28 And he, he ties this back in with ideas.
636. 00:33:31 He's talked about in chapter two, these ideas of touch points that basically
637. 00:33:35 that builds a sequence over time, one touch point after another.
638. 00:33:38 If you don't start by designing control, yada, yada, yada.
639. 00:33:41 And it kind of goes, it goes from there.
640. 00:33:43 Um, I can't remember.
641. 00:33:44 And I think is this where he talks about the Coldplay concert?
642. 00:33:50 Is it in this chapter?
643. 00:33:51 I don't remember.
644. 00:33:52 I didn't jot anything down.
645. 00:33:53 What I did jot down in this chapter, other than that visual and the five
646. 00:33:56 feelings is that social media is unloving.
647. 00:33:59 Yes.
648. 00:34:00 He's very hard, which the more and more we read, Mike, the more and more
649. 00:34:04 we talk about this, I mean, social media is terrible.
650. 00:34:07 Like, I mean, I think everybody, everybody agrees that it's pretty terrible
651. 00:34:11 and pretty brutal and we need to get rid of it.
652. 00:34:14 Yeah.
653. 00:34:14 So side note on that, because we were just talking about AI.
654. 00:34:17 This is the, the argument that people use with AI is that, well, it's at, at its
655. 00:34:24 root, it can be used for things that are unethical.
656. 00:34:26 So if that's a possibility, we should probably just not use it anymore.
657. 00:34:31 I'm not sure if you saw, but one of the big higher ups at Claude just had a
658. 00:34:34 meeting with the Pope about AI.
659. 00:34:38 And that was, that was kind of interesting because that's the argument
660. 00:34:41 that is being shared.
661. 00:34:42 And I'm thinking to myself, well, if that's the case, we should have got rid
662. 00:34:45 of social media a long time ago.
663. 00:34:47 Well, I heard somebody say the other day, the pope puts out the, the 240 page
664. 00:34:53 document on, on AI or whatever.
665. 00:34:55 And they're like, where was the one on social media?
666. 00:34:57 Like, yeah, we missed that one.
667. 00:34:59 But yeah, we missed that one.
668. 00:35:00 I mean, if we were going to, if we were going to hit one, that's probably the one
669. 00:35:03 to hit, like not the, not the AI one.
670. 00:35:06 Mike, I don't know how you want to do this chapter.
671. 00:35:08 Like so he calls them the, the feelings of love, like honestly, I feel completely
672. 00:35:14 underqualified to figure out whether these are the right feelings of love.
673. 00:35:18 I am going to trust that he's done the, you know, in, in my world, this is kind
674. 00:35:25 of like emergent research where essentially we didn't try to find these things.
675. 00:35:30 We just collected a bunch of data.
676. 00:35:31 And these are the things that emerged from this.
677. 00:35:34 I also know that emergent research in like the academic world is very, very fraught.
678. 00:35:41 Like you, if you're going to say you're doing emergent research, you have to be
679. 00:35:45 super careful and you really have to know what you're doing or the academic
680. 00:35:50 community will absolutely try to destroy you.
681. 00:35:53 Like they will like, I mean, it's, it's wild.
682. 00:35:56 So anytime anybody tells you this community is more forgiving.
683. 00:35:59 It sounds like like, so any, but anytime anybody tells me they did emergent research,
684. 00:36:03 I go, okay, but did you look back and see if there was a framework that was that,
685. 00:36:07 like somebody has established 20, 30, 40, 100 years ago that ties in with this,
686. 00:36:12 it didn't get that.
687. 00:36:14 So I'm going to trust that, okay, control harmony, significance, yada, yada, yada,
688. 00:36:19 that these are, these are those, but I honestly don't know.
689. 00:36:21 Like I don't feel qualified to say like, are these the ones, they make sense to me.
690. 00:36:26 If I lose, if I take away control, people are going to be unsettled.
691. 00:36:29 If I take away harmony, they're going to feel, they're going to feel bad.
692. 00:36:32 If I take away significance, you know, like I can, I can make the plausible argument here.
693. 00:36:36 I have no idea of knowing how these are the actual right five or not.
694. 00:36:40 I mean, and then it comes back to a, do I trust Marcus Buckingham?
695. 00:36:44 And that's the, the big piece of all of this is like, do I think these are the five?
696. 00:36:50 I don't know.
697. 00:36:51 I mean, they make sense, but I also, uh, you're kind of hitting on something
698. 00:36:57 that I mentioned at the beginning and maybe is the reason why I struggle with
699. 00:37:01 this at, at this point, the emergent research maybe is tied to the fact that
700. 00:37:06 there really isn't a very clear, this is what you do.
701. 00:37:11 And this is the result that you get.
702. 00:37:13 It's fine to talk about designing love in, but who are you designing it for?
703. 00:37:17 I know we'll get into that in the next section, but the different, what's the
704. 00:37:24 term stake holders, not shareholders, like they're going to benefit financially
705. 00:37:30 from this, but they have a stake in the organization.
706. 00:37:34 You know, you have customers who are stakeholders.
707. 00:37:36 You have employees who are stakeholders.
708. 00:37:38 You have different levels of employees that are stakeholders.
709. 00:37:43 And at some point, what they want the best way to love any one of those
710. 00:37:47 individuals is going to be at odds with something, some other stakeholder in the
711. 00:37:52 organization and how do you reconcile that?
712. 00:37:55 There isn't a clean way to do that.
713. 00:37:57 And so that is kind of the thing that's bouncing around in the back of my
714. 00:37:59 head and making me doubt everything that I've read up until this point a
715. 00:38:03 little bit because it's like, yeah, yeah, I can see that.
716. 00:38:06 Like it makes sense, but it's not, it's not clear yet.
717. 00:38:13 Yeah.
718. 00:38:14 Now it's, it's really a tricky thing to do for somebody who wants to lead a
719. 00:38:20 like big, difficult organization.
720. 00:38:22 And I think one of the things that I would love to have seen more in this
721. 00:38:26 book is taking a single organization and looking at the different levels or
722. 00:38:32 different stakeholders, like you're saying, and like looking at like how
723. 00:38:36 these things come together, because I actually think that's where this gets
724. 00:38:39 hard, like you're, like you're describing is one, one off instances of
725. 00:38:44 examples are easy, but like when you actually look at the integrated piece of
726. 00:38:49 this, yeah, like that gets, that gets real hard.
727. 00:38:52 And maybe to be fair, to Marcus, maybe I am just overthinking this because
728. 00:38:58 that definitely happens.
729. 00:39:00 Um, he does talk about the, the Josh effect, the guy at the beginning where
730. 00:39:04 everybody loves him.
731. 00:39:06 And in the next section, we're going to find out that he's high up in Disney.
732. 00:39:10 Yep.
733. 00:39:10 Right.
734. 00:39:11 So maybe it's just, no, don't worry about all that other stuff.
735. 00:39:15 Just try to practice this in the moment, every interaction that you have.
736. 00:39:19 And ultimately that will lead to better, better outcomes.
737. 00:39:23 But that's not explicitly stated here.
738. 00:39:25 And that's the question that I have that isn't addressed is like, well,
739. 00:39:28 what happens when these are, are at odds?
740. 00:39:30 You, you know, one of the things that I don't remember him saying, but maybe
741. 00:39:33 very true.
742. 00:39:33 And he might have said it somewhere in the book, Hey, listen, we're so bad at
743. 00:39:38 this, that like even the smallest little bump up will dramatically change
744. 00:39:43 your organization.
745. 00:39:44 That's true.
746. 00:39:44 Therefore, like you don't have to nail everything, like just make some progress
747. 00:39:48 and you're going to see exponential growth kind of a, yeah, progress, not
748. 00:39:51 perfection.
749. 00:39:51 Exactly.
750. 00:39:52 Okay.
751. 00:39:53 So chapter four, we're entering into part two now.
752. 00:39:55 So now we're going into more of the application side of the book, design
753. 00:39:59 love in for your team.
754. 00:40:01 So we've noticed here that like this might resonate with certain people or it
755. 00:40:05 may, you know, kind of exclude other people.
756. 00:40:08 The book is really kind of a leaders book.
757. 00:40:10 Like it's, it's not meant for average Joe employee.
758. 00:40:14 It's meant for like leaders in organizations.
759. 00:40:16 So I would say, uh, might correct me if you think I'm wrong, but like, I think
760. 00:40:20 that's the primary audience is its leaders within an organization.
761. 00:40:24 Yes.
762. 00:40:25 And I'm not sure how I feel about that, to be honest.
763. 00:40:28 Um, when you're talking about designing love in, I feel like this is something
764. 00:40:33 that, yeah, it has to start at the top, but really needs to trickle down through
765. 00:40:37 everybody in the organization.
766. 00:40:40 The examples that he shares with Disney and all those places, I think you easily
767. 00:40:47 could have added something in here about here's what this looks like at the
768. 00:40:52 sea level.
769. 00:40:52 Here's what it looks like at the manager level.
770. 00:40:54 Here's what it looks like at the, I guess, low level.
771. 00:40:59 I don't know.
772. 00:41:00 Like he talks about the Imagineers and the people who are working in the parks.
773. 00:41:04 And you know, how did they practice this?
774. 00:41:07 That is completely missing.
775. 00:41:08 And I feel like it would have benefited the book to talk about some of that stuff.
776. 00:41:13 Yeah.
777. 00:41:14 Yeah. So, so he's, he's now, I guess, extolling the leaders.
778. 00:41:18 Hey, those things I talked about in the last three chapters, we need to apply those.
779. 00:41:22 Like let's actually get those into, into work here.
780. 00:41:24 He says that basically if we can create those five feelings in others, and he's
781. 00:41:29 very general, if we can create those five feelings than others.
782. 00:41:31 So I would say he would say customers and my employees and my other leaders and
783. 00:41:36 whatever, whoever it might be talks about the ABCs, um, of experience making,
784. 00:41:41 because he's still got that thread there that, how do we do this?
785. 00:41:44 We leaders make experiences.
786. 00:41:46 So you have your authenticity, okay?
787. 00:41:49 You have your beliefs and then you have your customs.
788. 00:41:53 So authenticity basically is like, am I, uh, do I mean what I say?
789. 00:42:00 You know, like is, is, is what I'm trying to pitch to you, what, what I actually
790. 00:42:05 believe.
791. 00:42:05 There you go.
792. 00:42:05 I couldn't, I couldn't figure that out.
793. 00:42:07 Uh, now he, this where, is where he talks about the idea of the mover and
794. 00:42:11 what's the other one, Mike, um, he's got two different categories here.
795. 00:42:15 The mover.
796. 00:42:15 Yeah.
797. 00:42:16 I forget.
798. 00:42:16 I didn't jot those down because I didn't think they were all that profound.
799. 00:42:19 Yeah.
800. 00:42:20 They, they, I only got the mover.
801. 00:42:22 So I don't know what the other one was, but that one might have come from his
802. 00:42:25 previous book, uh, love plus work.
803. 00:42:27 Uh, so, so he brings that back into here.
804. 00:42:30 Then we get into beliefs, um, that basically, you know, we want to move past
805. 00:42:36 the functional lens.
806. 00:42:37 Sorry.
807. 00:42:37 If you want to, yeah, the beliefs really, this one is not, you know, have
808. 00:42:41 beliefs.
809. 00:42:41 This is really communicate your beliefs over and over and over again.
810. 00:42:45 So that people don't have to guess what you believe.
811. 00:42:49 And that I think is, is pretty valuable.
812. 00:42:51 So authenticity, beliefs, those are great customs.
813. 00:42:54 I hate the word customs.
814. 00:42:57 I get it for ABCs, but why routines and rituals is so much better, which he
815. 00:43:04 quickly makes that he goes by customs, I mean routines and rituals, which is way
816. 00:43:07 better, absolutely way better because this one probably stuck in my head.
817. 00:43:12 The most is like, I can tell you examples of this where we walk into a room
818. 00:43:16 for this type of a meeting and I can tell you play by play what's going to
819. 00:43:20 happen in the next seven minutes, like this is going to happen.
820. 00:43:22 Then this is going to happen and this is going to happen.
821. 00:43:24 And I can tell you that 90% of the room is going to roll their eyes.
822. 00:43:27 And 10% is going to just not care.
823. 00:43:29 They're going to be looking at their phone.
824. 00:43:31 And it's like this one hit, this one clearly hit home.
825. 00:43:35 The hardest for me is authenticity, beliefs, but this
826. 00:43:38 customs or this rituals and rules.
827. 00:43:40 It's like, okay, how do we as leaders think about those?
828. 00:43:43 Cause I don't think we think about those a lot.
829. 00:43:44 We just do them.
830. 00:43:45 Yeah.
831. 00:43:45 I think these three things are really good.
832. 00:43:47 And the routines and the rituals, I agree, should have defined it as that.
833. 00:43:51 Also, I feel like the ABC, while it's convenient implies that this is
834. 00:43:55 elementary, easy stuff.
835. 00:43:57 It's not the routines and the rituals is the hard part.
836. 00:44:01 And that is the, but it's also the good work.
837. 00:44:04 And I think it's also easy to connect that back to the idea of the experience
838. 00:44:10 making and the touch points with the term routines and rituals.
839. 00:44:13 Customs is a little bit of a stretch there.
840. 00:44:17 Yeah.
841. 00:44:18 So I struggled with this chapter because we started to go into like lists of lists
842. 00:44:23 of lists a little bit because we've got the ABCs.
843. 00:44:27 Now we're going to bring control back into this.
844. 00:44:30 And then we're going to think SSS, who do we serve, what scores, what stuff?
845. 00:44:35 And I just kind of got like, I understand we went.
846. 00:44:39 Application and we went practice, but we went real hard, like, like super hard,
847. 00:44:44 like super fast.
848. 00:44:46 So it's basically going to turn into like a do these things.
849. 00:44:51 And I can't tell you that I, I loved the way these do these things were described.
850. 00:44:56 Cause I felt at some level, they were a little hand wavy.
851. 00:44:59 Like just go do this thing, like set a clear tone, use rituals and stories.
852. 00:45:05 You know, like, and I don't want to go through all of these unless you want to,
853. 00:45:07 like I'm totally fine with going through all of them.
854. 00:45:09 But I didn't write down any of them.
855. 00:45:10 I hated this part of the book.
856. 00:45:12 I think, I think this is, uh, this is the part that I, I wish I hadn't been there
857. 00:45:17 because it's both prescriptive and also not detailed enough.
858. 00:45:21 Yeah.
859. 00:45:22 Like if you're going to lean into, you have to do these things, give us a real clear
860. 00:45:28 scorecard to use example, the EOS system and, um, something like a 90.io.
861. 00:45:36 That's a, an app that we use when I was at the digital marketing agency.
862. 00:45:40 And what that does is it helps you apply, uh, EOS entrepreneur operating system.
863. 00:45:45 Right.
864. 00:45:45 That's what that stands for.
865. 00:45:46 I think, I think so.
866. 00:45:47 I think you're right.
867. 00:45:47 Yeah.
868. 00:45:48 So like in that, in EOS, you've got specific meetings between the visionary
869. 00:45:54 and the integrator, you've got meetings with the people who are your direct reports.
870. 00:45:59 You, everybody has one specific number that they're responsible for.
871. 00:46:03 So it's, it rolls all that stuff up into the company wide scorecard.
872. 00:46:08 You know, if he had software like that for implementing DLI, like that would be great.
873. 00:46:13 And I feel like you would get more people to implement this.
874. 00:46:17 But I'm, so I'm, I'm of two minds.
875. 00:46:20 I think as he's describing this on the one hand, I kind of get what he's doing here.
876. 00:46:25 Design love and who in their right mind is naturally thinking about designing love
877. 00:46:30 into their work, not many people.
878. 00:46:32 Should they be?
879. 00:46:33 Absolutely.
880. 00:46:34 He's making a compelling argument for that.
881. 00:46:36 Okay.
882. 00:46:36 How do we do that?
883. 00:46:38 You've got to give people something, especially if this is emerging research.
884. 00:46:41 You can't point back and be like, CC, obviously I can help you get these results.
885. 00:46:45 There's all this evidence that supports this.
886. 00:46:48 Okay.
887. 00:46:48 So you have to communicate enough specifics where people do inherently trust you
888. 00:46:52 that you know what you're talking about with this.
889. 00:46:54 But at this point, there is no solid framework or lattice work from with which
890. 00:47:01 to hang these specific things.
891. 00:47:03 It's just feels like a whole bunch of spaghetti has just been thrown against the wall.
892. 00:47:08 And the effect of that is overwhelmed.
893. 00:47:11 I say that as someone who I'm probably who he's talking to in my integrator role.
894. 00:47:18 That wasn't a huge company, not not Disney, things like that.
895. 00:47:21 But I think that's who he's those types of people are the people that he's
896. 00:47:26 writing this book for.
897. 00:47:27 Right.
898. 00:47:28 And also I love these types of books.
899. 00:47:30 I love the culture stuff.
900. 00:47:32 I love the systems.
901. 00:47:34 I mean, at this point, we I should be your biggest fan.
902. 00:47:39 Frankly, I'm not missed opportunity.
903. 00:47:43 I think I think you said it.
904. 00:47:45 I think you said it really well.
905. 00:47:46 Yeah.
906. 00:47:47 Yeah.
907. 00:47:47 So not to say I disagree with any of those specifics there, but also I just
908. 00:47:51 don't really care enough about them to even write them down in my outline.
909. 00:47:55 Yeah, I I don't think I would have been able to say it as well as you did in
910. 00:48:00 terms of that, but like not having a framework to hang it on.
911. 00:48:03 And I get that like design love in is like the the moniker that we're going to put
912. 00:48:08 this under, but it's it just doesn't feel I just feels loose.
913. 00:48:13 It feels not like I like usable, if that makes sense.
914. 00:48:17 And then he and then he hits us with this, the DILX team metric, right?
915. 00:48:23 Which is basically, I don't know, I didn't count them, but there's like 10
916. 00:48:27 questions or something like that or 10 things that I would rate rate on here.
917. 00:48:31 And I I'm just I'm underwhelmed, like I'm very underwhelmed.
918. 00:48:36 What do you say?
919. 00:48:37 Fluffy metrics.
920. 00:48:38 Yeah.
921. 00:48:39 So this this, I think I'm starting to realize, I think my why I asked you that
922. 00:48:45 question way back at the beginning about, do you trust him?
923. 00:48:47 What is his goal with this book?
924. 00:48:50 Is it to get people to implement a system where they design more love
925. 00:48:55 into their into their companies and their organizations?
926. 00:48:59 Maybe that's like a someday, maybe goal.
927. 00:49:01 I don't think he's there yet.
928. 00:49:03 What is the immediate goal of this book?
929. 00:49:06 Establish Marcus Buckingham and his company as the authority in this.
930. 00:49:11 You're not quite sure how to do this, but you know that they've done it before.
931. 00:49:15 So who do you call to say, Hey, come do this for us?
932. 00:49:18 And oh, by the way, look, we've worked with Disney and we've
933. 00:49:21 worked with your early, that is not a bad objective to be clear, right?
934. 00:49:27 But I do think if this is as important as saying that it is, making it just a
935. 00:49:34 little bit more attainable for people who want to take action on this from this book.
936. 00:49:39 It's got to be more than just the 10 questions surveys at the end.
937. 00:49:43 There's got to be something a little bit more solid there.
938. 00:49:46 OK, Michael, let's get meadow on this.
939. 00:49:49 All right.
940. 00:49:49 So something is resonating poorly with us, with you and I, as we read through this
941. 00:49:55 and as we get to, especially chapter four, right, like where we're at.
942. 00:49:58 So something's resonating poorly with us.
943. 00:50:00 Well, he would tell us it's either control or it's harmony or it's significant.
944. 00:50:07 But which one do you think it is for you?
945. 00:50:09 And I like, I don't know this either.
946. 00:50:11 Like I'm asking this live.
947. 00:50:12 So if you hear Mike think out loud, like don't be surprised because I don't
948. 00:50:16 know what it is for me.
949. 00:50:17 But something around this is not resonating well with us.
950. 00:50:23 Hmm.
951. 00:50:25 Well, I don't know that I can point to one of those five feelings and say this is
952. 00:50:30 where I don't feel.
953. 00:50:33 Um, it's going to end my graphic where I feel unseen, isolated, stagnant, whatever.
954. 00:50:39 I don't think that's it.
955. 00:50:41 I think I'm a hundred percent on board with the why.
956. 00:50:46 And I want to now have a little bit more meat in terms of how I would start to do
957. 00:50:54 this at different levels of the organization.
958. 00:50:57 And I think having some sort of tool to do that, which is more than just the surveys at the end.
959. 00:51:04 So this is the, the picture I get of these, the, the metrics.
960. 00:51:10 I think he calls them those kinds of questions things.
961. 00:51:14 Go give those to your organization.
962. 00:51:18 Everybody in the organization, if this has not been a priority, puts a three.
963. 00:51:23 What do you do then?
964. 00:51:26 Is there a clear path forward?
965. 00:51:29 I guess I better call Marcus.
966. 00:51:31 The right, which is again, that that's, that's fine, but it just feels like.
967. 00:51:37 And this is probably my issue with this previous book too is like, what do you
968. 00:51:41 actually do with this?
969. 00:51:42 You read this book and then the big question you're trying to answer is so what?
970. 00:51:46 Okay.
971. 00:51:47 So I think we are both struggling with growth.
972. 00:51:50 How will I be more capable tomorrow after having read this book?
973. 00:51:55 And like, I don't think we can get to a strong.
974. 00:51:58 Oh, this is how I'm more capable as a leader who wants to design love into my
975. 00:52:03 organization.
976. 00:52:04 I don't think that's strong.
977. 00:52:05 Like, I don't think we can get to there strongly because of what you're describing.
978. 00:52:09 But it's 95% of the way there.
979. 00:52:11 It's like just finished the bridge.
980. 00:52:17 Okay.
981. 00:52:19 So anyhow, just because I don't think we've ever done this, the design
982. 00:52:22 love in X team metric, you rate one to five.
983. 00:52:26 One is strongly or sorry, five is strongly agree.
984. 00:52:30 One is strongly disagree and you rate control.
985. 00:52:33 I know what my company stands for, I'm given everything.
986. 00:52:36 I need to be successful in my job.
987. 00:52:38 Yadda, yadda, yadda.
988. 00:52:38 Right.
989. 00:52:38 Like, so you rate control, harmony, significance, warmth of others and those
990. 00:52:42 things.
991. 00:52:42 But like, again, it's only like 10 questions and you rate it's a one to five
992. 00:52:46 rating and you're not really told like and apply it in the following way.
993. 00:52:51 I don't even know, Mike, if he links us out to his website for more information,
994. 00:52:56 like I don't remember him saying, oh, and you can find out more.
995. 00:52:59 Does he do that?
996. 00:53:00 Uh, I think he mentioned it at least once outside of the context of this is, you
997. 00:53:06 know, what my, my company does.
998. 00:53:09 Um, so there probably are additional resources, but people who've been listening
999. 00:53:13 to bookworm for a while know that, uh, unless it's really compelling, I did not
1000. 00:53:17 look at the additional resources.
1001. 00:53:19 And he doesn't make a big deal out of it, like a lot of the other books that we've
1002. 00:53:22 read that do have quote unquote assessments built in.
1003. 00:53:27 I think the biggest part of the whole metric thing for me was good hearts law,
1004. 00:53:30 which have you heard of good hearts law before?
1005. 00:53:33 I have, but I forget what it is.
1006. 00:53:34 So there's basically the law states, as soon as a metric becomes a target, it
1007. 00:53:37 ceases to be a metric and it was like, oh, this is why student ratings making no
1008. 00:53:42 sense and don't actually apply at all because everybody knows they're a target
1009. 00:53:47 and therefore the metric just goes out the window.
1010. 00:53:49 Like, absolutely, it just goes out the window.
1011. 00:53:51 Uh, all right.
1012. 00:53:53 Let's go to chapter five.
1013. 00:53:53 We got to move on to chapter five design love in for your customers.
1014. 00:53:57 So the in the last chapter, just because we, we went on a little bit of a path
1015. 00:54:00 there, uh, was design love in for your team.
1016. 00:54:03 And now we're designing love in for, um, our actual customers.
1017. 00:54:08 Um, Mike, like this one is about like experience making and working through
1018. 00:54:14 different things and asking questions, um, it gets into a strategy a little bit
1019. 00:54:20 here and like strategic thinking, I'm going to tell you, Mike, like I did not
1020. 00:54:25 get a lot out of this chapter.
1021. 00:54:27 Like I did not get very much.
1022. 00:54:28 So I don't know if you want to anchor us on this chapter or not, but like
1023. 00:54:32 there's very little I got out of this one.
1024. 00:54:35 I got nothing.
1025. 00:54:36 I wrote down the case studies that he, uh, he mentions here, but nothing
1026. 00:54:40 specific from them, because I don't think there's anything specific that you're
1027. 00:54:43 like, Oh, I should totally do this.
1028. 00:54:45 These are just examples.
1029. 00:54:46 And maybe there's something that inspires, uh, you, or something that you
1030. 00:54:51 could do in your company or organization, but I think the real value of this really
1031. 00:54:55 is just calling out the ways that other people have done this.
1032. 00:55:00 So he talks about Disney.
1033. 00:55:01 That's the big one.
1034. 00:55:03 Okay.
1035. 00:55:03 You already kind of talked about the cast members don't release the hug first.
1036. 00:55:07 Like that's the sort of stuff that he's pointing out.
1037. 00:55:09 And I find that those sorts of stories fascinating.
1038. 00:55:12 So this was a really fun chapter to read.
1039. 00:55:14 But again, you're like, I think you hit it on the head.
1040. 00:55:17 There's not a whole lot in terms of application.
1041. 00:55:20 It was interesting to hear him talk about Rivian versus Jeep, right?
1042. 00:55:23 Cause he's a Jeep owner and he wants Jeep to lean into this.
1043. 00:55:27 And he sees all the opportunities for them to do it.
1044. 00:55:30 And they don't.
1045. 00:55:31 Whereas Rivian does.
1046. 00:55:32 And he's like, come on, Jeep.
1047. 00:55:34 Right.
1048. 00:55:34 And then he uses the sun bum case study is the, uh, the other one with the, the gorilla.
1049. 00:55:39 So you're absolutely, you're absolutely right.
1050. 00:55:41 This was a fun chapter to read and nothing came out of it in terms of show
1051. 00:55:45 worthy, show worthiness.
1052. 00:55:47 Right.
1053. 00:55:47 Which it doesn't mean it's not valuable, by the way.
1054. 00:55:50 It just means it's really hard to talk about on this particular podcast.
1055. 00:55:53 But I actually think, uh, all of these sorts of examples of implementing the,
1056. 00:56:00 the principles in a real scenario.
1057. 00:56:03 And some of these are, including details and stories that I've heard before.
1058. 00:56:07 Some of them I haven't.
1059. 00:56:09 Some of them, it's giving me more context for some of this stuff.
1060. 00:56:12 So I actually thought this was a, a pretty cool chapter.
1061. 00:56:16 And, uh, I like the way that he describes these things.
1062. 00:56:19 It's obviously he knows a lot about business. He knows a lot about how these
1063. 00:56:23 companies and these organizations, uh, run.
1064. 00:56:26 And if you put together a whole book on just like these case studies, I would be
1065. 00:56:31 really interested in that book.
1066. 00:56:35 All right.
1067. 00:56:35 So then we're going to move right to chapter six.
1068. 00:56:38 We're just going to fly right through the three disciplines to design love in.
1069. 00:56:41 So in this one, he's going to describe walk the stage, equip the people, sequence
1070. 00:56:46 the scenes.
1071. 00:56:47 So these are the three disciplines that allow you to design love in.
1072. 00:56:52 I believe this might have been my favorite chapter of all, of all of them.
1073. 00:56:58 Uh, and I think that it's because like I actually was able to work through some
1074. 00:57:03 of this more in detail and say like, okay, this is how I might do that.
1075. 00:57:07 So for discipline one, walk the stage, uh, you have to basically walk through the
1076. 00:57:12 entire experience and like Mike, like I could live in this world.
1077. 00:57:16 Like this actually would be a ton of fun for me to where like I'm a consultant.
1078. 00:57:20 They call me in and they're like, Hey, like just walk the stage for the customer.
1079. 00:57:24 And like that's what we do.
1080. 00:57:25 Like we just walk the stage or like walk the stage for an employee.
1081. 00:57:28 And like we go through and we go, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam.
1082. 00:57:31 We're like trying to identify the different, um, touch points, if you will, uh, that,
1083. 00:57:36 that they're seeing or the moments and we're saying, how does this moment have impact?
1084. 00:57:40 Like this first step would be super fun to do for different companies.
1085. 00:57:45 Like I think it'd be super fun to do.
1086. 00:57:47 Yeah.
1087. 00:57:47 100%.
1088. 00:57:49 Um, these three disciplines, I like these a lot too.
1089. 00:57:52 The walks of stage, you cook the people sequence, the scenes that you mentioned.
1090. 00:57:55 And this is where I feel like I really was, was struggling with his approach to everything.
1091. 00:58:05 Like basically when I read this section, I immediately saw how these are business
1092. 00:58:11 principles that I have heard about in other places and other frameworks.
1093. 00:58:16 It immediately brought me back to the beginning of the book and his case for love.
1094. 00:58:20 And my issue with how do you actually measure this stuff?
1095. 00:58:25 Um, equipping the people is really empowering the people.
1096. 00:58:29 No, if you've got the, the values of the organization and everybody in the organization
1097. 00:58:35 makes decisions based on those values, then they can do what they want.
1098. 00:58:40 And it's okay as long as it's in alignment with those, those values.
1099. 00:58:45 So, um, I like the way that he talks about this.
1100. 00:58:49 The walking the stage specifically, you know, there was something there about,
1101. 00:58:52 you need to clear the stage of the things that don't belong there.
1102. 00:58:54 That's kind of, kind of profound.
1103. 00:58:56 And there's a, there's a lot to that.
1104. 00:58:57 I think.
1105. 00:58:58 Can I, can I pause you?
1106. 00:58:59 Can I pause?
1107. 00:58:59 Yeah.
1108. 00:59:00 Yeah.
1109. 00:59:00 Designing love in first means designing noise out.
1110. 00:59:04 And it's some form of that.
1111. 00:59:05 Like that's not exactly.
1112. 00:59:06 And I was like, I love that idea.
1113. 00:59:08 Like I love the idea of if we get rid of the noise, we have a better chance of them
1114. 00:59:12 seeing the loving thing we care about.
1115. 00:59:15 The thing that gets me is like that concept of loving again, right?
1116. 00:59:18 Like design.
1117. 00:59:19 Yeah.
1118. 00:59:19 Is it really that or is it really just like good stuff?
1119. 00:59:22 Like do we just design?
1120. 00:59:23 Right.
1121. 00:59:23 Good.
1122. 00:59:24 Yeah.
1123. 00:59:24 I don't know.
1124. 00:59:24 Like I'm, I'm toward on that.
1125. 00:59:26 So when we got back to these three disciplines on the one hand, it's like, oh,
1126. 00:59:29 I kind of now know what he's talking about and there's some clarity provided,
1127. 00:59:33 but then also it made it feel even less original.
1128. 00:59:36 Yeah.
1129. 00:59:37 Yeah.
1130. 00:59:38 So I'm kind of two minds of that.
1131. 00:59:40 But I did like the thing that he talked about in this section about how clarity
1132. 00:59:44 is, is loving.
1133. 00:59:45 Um, I've heard it said before and I can't put my finger on where that clear is kind.
1134. 00:59:51 Maybe that was radical candor.
1135. 00:59:53 Kim Scott, do you remember?
1136. 00:59:54 I don't remember that.
1137. 00:59:56 But like you don't want people to have to guess.
1138. 01:00:00 You want it to be clear.
1139. 01:00:02 This is the issue.
1140. 01:00:03 This is what we're dealing with.
1141. 01:00:04 This is what I think.
1142. 01:00:06 You know, I, I don't know necessarily remember exactly how that applies to those,
1143. 01:00:11 those three disciplines, but there's, there is a lot of good stuff in here.
1144. 01:00:17 Yep.
1145. 01:00:17 And then at the end of this chapter, he gives us the DLIX customer metric,
1146. 01:00:22 which is basically the exact same thing with a little bit of wording tweak.
1147. 01:00:26 And you still rate it one to five and you do the exact same thing.
1148. 01:00:29 And like I wonder, like I would love to ask him, Hey, are these the way they are
1149. 01:00:34 so you don't overwhelm the leader?
1150. 01:00:36 Like you can actually collect this information and you're not like overwhelming
1151. 01:00:40 somebody with a hundred, a hundred point survey kind of a thing.
1152. 01:00:44 I would just love to know more about the creation of these metrics and these
1153. 01:00:50 instruments and like what the vision is for him saying, like, this is successful.
1154. 01:00:56 Like this is how we know this successful.
1155. 01:00:58 Now one of the things he does state in here is as before the same best practices
1156. 01:01:01 apply, um, filled at once per quarter, getting 40, 40% fives puts you in the top
1157. 01:01:08 15% in our database.
1158. 01:01:10 So like they use this.
1159. 01:01:12 Yep.
1160. 01:01:12 So like you essentially are just trying to turn all of these into fives is what
1161. 01:01:17 you're trying to do.
1162. 01:01:19 Yeah.
1163. 01:01:19 And how big is that database and what's the average scores?
1164. 01:01:23 And that's their special sauce, right?
1165. 01:01:25 That's their special sauce of their, of their consulting company.
1166. 01:01:27 Yeah.
1167. 01:01:28 Yeah.
1168. 01:01:28 Yeah.
1169. 01:01:29 For sure.
1170. 01:01:29 OK, uh, Chapter seven, so we're at the last chapter before the epilogue.
1171. 01:01:34 This is your road to DLI mastery.
1172. 01:01:38 And in this one, he gives you four tools to develop mastery in this.
1173. 01:01:42 So there's the BDA, uh, look at before, during and after there's the MMO focused
1174. 01:01:48 on major missed opportunities.
1175. 01:01:50 There's the MIT, which is maximize every touchpoint.
1176. 01:01:54 And then there's the WPW wave, your, what's potential wand, what's possible?
1177. 01:02:00 Oh, sorry.
1178. 01:02:01 What's possible one?
1179. 01:02:01 Forgive me.
1180. 01:02:02 Uh, so wave your, what's, what's possible one?
1181. 01:02:03 So these are the four different ways that you can have a build mastery in
1182. 01:02:09 designing a loving experience.
1183. 01:02:11 So essentially we've built a framework, then we've built some tools under this
1184. 01:02:16 framework, um, or some, what would be the last one?
1185. 01:02:20 What's the last one?
1186. 01:02:21 Or has he, what's he call it disciplines?
1187. 01:02:24 So we, we've got the, we've got the framework.
1188. 01:02:26 We've got some disciplines in the framework.
1189. 01:02:27 Now we're actually getting the tools, uh, to implement this and, and get better at it.
1190. 01:02:33 I don't mind these other than the fact that like there's for some reason,
1191. 01:02:37 acronyms now, like I don't know, understand why we had to bring acronyms into it.
1192. 01:02:40 They don't add any value in my mind, but like I actually think these are good
1193. 01:02:43 principles.
1194. 01:02:43 These, these tools are good.
1195. 01:02:45 If I look at the overall sequence before, during and after, if I focus on major missed
1196. 01:02:49 opportunities, I really like the way you frame major missed opportunities.
1197. 01:02:52 It's not things that we're doing wrong.
1198. 01:02:54 It's just things that we could do better.
1199. 01:02:56 And I think that, that takes the negativeness out of it and like allows you
1200. 01:03:00 to come in and go like, Oh, if we just changed this, everything gets better.
1201. 01:03:06 Oh, cool.
1202. 01:03:06 That was a missed opportunity.
1203. 01:03:07 Let's look at that.
1204. 01:03:08 Uh, maximizing every touch point, again, the idea of resources.
1205. 01:03:12 You and I've talked about that.
1206. 01:03:13 It's like, can we really maximize every touch point?
1207. 01:03:16 Like what happens when we can't maximize every touch point?
1208. 01:03:18 Like how do we choose which ones to maximize and which ones not to?
1209. 01:03:21 And then the, I actually am not a super huge fan of the what's possible wand.
1210. 01:03:26 But, you know, like I like the idea of that, get out there and think creatively.
1211. 01:03:30 Uh, kind of thing.
1212. 01:03:31 So, um, that's, uh, I guess there are the five accelerators here as well.
1213. 01:03:36 Um, so before we get there, before we get there, the, the tools that he has for these, uh,
1214. 01:03:41 when I saw these, especially like the before, during, after it's like the charts, that's
1215. 01:03:45 where it clicked for me. Oh, there should be a tool that you can actually use this, implement
1216. 01:03:51 this in your, your business.
1217. 01:03:54 Um, but also at this point, this is a very short chapter at the end of the book.
1218. 01:04:00 And that's the sort of stuff I feel like that should have been interjected throughout.
1219. 01:04:05 So you could see it all come together at this point.
1220. 01:04:08 Uh, when you share it all in the last chapter of the book, it feels really hard.
1221. 01:04:15 Um, it feels complicated.
1222. 01:04:18 There's still the question of, okay.
1223. 01:04:20 So we're looking at making more of these magical loving moments.
1224. 01:04:23 But I do have to shift probably from where how we've been running things in our organization
1225. 01:04:30 to where we're going.
1226. 01:04:32 And that's not going to be easy either.
1227. 01:04:33 So how much time do I devote to this sort of thing?
1228. 01:04:37 Is it 50%?
1229. 01:04:38 Is it 80%?
1230. 01:04:39 Is it 20%?
1231. 01:04:41 You know, for disciplines of execution talks about the wildly important goals
1232. 01:04:45 that's 20% of your time and 80% is the whirlwind.
1233. 01:04:47 All the stuff that you've been doing that keeps the lights on.
1234. 01:04:50 So yeah, this is sort of like, okay.
1235. 01:04:54 But no, and then the five accelerators.
1236. 01:04:58 I wish these would have been separate chapters, to be honest.
1237. 01:05:00 I, I don't like that these were, were combined.
1238. 01:05:03 The five accelerators, name is Stewart.
1239. 01:05:05 Start small, educate, educate, educate, design a reliable dashboard.
1240. 01:05:10 Critical process, redesign.
1241. 01:05:12 The design a reliable dashboard, I feel like that you should have a screenshot.
1242. 01:05:16 Show us what this looks like and then tell us where to go to sign up.
1243. 01:05:20 I could vibe code one for you, Marcus.
1244. 01:05:22 Yeah, exactly.
1245. 01:05:23 Exactly.
1246. 01:05:24 Yeah, like I, I didn't even remember the accelerators were in there, which
1247. 01:05:28 shows you the impact that they had, they had on me.
1248. 01:05:31 I'm not going to say any of them are bad.
1249. 01:05:33 I don't think any of them are, you know, oh, he missed the mark on this one.
1250. 01:05:37 But they just didn't have a huge impact on, on me.
1251. 01:05:41 So anything else from this chapter, Mike?
1252. 01:05:45 Um, no, other than I feel like there's a whole bunch of stuff that's crammed
1253. 01:05:48 in here, right at the end, like in terms of business process design, like
1254. 01:05:54 you're going to shift a company from one way, doing things to another.
1255. 01:05:58 You first need to establish the baseline.
1256. 01:06:01 And that's where those assessments come in, right?
1257. 01:06:04 And then the next part is to create the planner, the strategy for what you're
1258. 01:06:08 going to do different, that's really chapters four, five and six.
1259. 01:06:13 Then you need to have some sort of measurement, right?
1260. 01:06:17 That's what the four tools really are, your retrospective, what you're
1261. 01:06:21 going to do differently.
1262. 01:06:22 Um, and then once you have that stuff and it's going, then the accelerators
1263. 01:06:27 feels like a natural chapter.
1264. 01:06:30 Um, like, okay, now how do you accelerate this?
1265. 01:06:33 How do you now we're cooking with gas?
1266. 01:06:35 What do you, what do you do to pour, pour oil on this, this fire?
1267. 01:06:39 And I feel like there's all, there's a lot of opportunity to go deeper into
1268. 01:06:43 those things.
1269. 01:06:45 And so it feels weird and it's disappointing to me as a business
1270. 01:06:48 systems guy, this guy crammed into the end.
1271. 01:06:51 You, uh, okay.
1272. 01:06:53 Are you ready to continue speaking about cramming stuff into the end?
1273. 01:06:57 Sure.
1274. 01:06:58 So the epilogue, uh, a stand in the hallways.
1275. 01:07:02 So he starts this off, because the chapter title is kind of weird, but he
1276. 01:07:05 starts this off basically saying like, Hey, when doge happened, they fired a
1277. 01:07:10 bunch of people in the federal government and the people who didn't get fired
1278. 01:07:13 stood in the hallways and like, congratulate, like not congratulated, but
1279. 01:07:17 like cheered for them and supported the people plotted.
1280. 01:07:19 Yeah.
1281. 01:07:20 Yeah, plotted.
1282. 01:07:20 Who had gotten, um, gotten removed.
1283. 01:07:23 And then like, I have no idea where it comes from, but then we just get
1284. 01:07:28 10 non-negotiables, right? Like, and I just feel like it's like, wait, what?
1285. 01:07:33 Like, you follow the one to 12 role, no surveillance software.
1286. 01:07:36 And I'm not going to read them all, but it's like, it's like, I don't doubt
1287. 01:07:39 that these are good or that these might be okay that we should think about these.
1288. 01:07:44 And he links it to build a design love in company, but like, uh, there's no
1289. 01:07:49 underpinning to these as I'm reading them, they feel like throwaway ideas, like
1290. 01:07:54 throwaway comments that I don't know why they're in the back end of this book.
1291. 01:07:59 Like, help me understand why this is what we ended the book with, Mike.
1292. 01:08:03 There's good stuff in there too.
1293. 01:08:04 This, yeah, I agree.
1294. 01:08:05 This is another chapter.
1295. 01:08:07 If not another section.
1296. 01:08:08 Yeah.
1297. 01:08:09 How to implement this stuff feels really weird that this is crammed in at the end.
1298. 01:08:14 Um, I think maybe what, uh, the intent here with the epilogue is I don't
1299. 01:08:23 know nothing, I haven't published, uh, worked with an editor, published a book
1300. 01:08:27 like this, but I can foresee a scenario where you are trying to pitch your book
1301. 01:08:33 deal, right?
1302. 01:08:34 And they want to know what's the first chapter?
1303. 01:08:37 What's the epilogue?
1304. 01:08:38 And then I'm, or the introduction, I would imagine the epilogue is high up on
1305. 01:08:42 the list of things that you really got a nail.
1306. 01:08:45 There's got to be value in this for somebody.
1307. 01:08:48 So from that perspective, check the box.
1308. 01:08:52 There's a lot of really good stuff in here.
1309. 01:08:55 But yeah, it is weird to cram this in at the end of the, the book.
1310. 01:08:59 I can sort of see how it maps back to all the stuff that he's talked about,
1311. 01:09:03 but also it's not super clean.
1312. 01:09:05 And most of the good conclusions that we see are a form of restating what we've
1313. 01:09:10 gone through already in the book.
1314. 01:09:11 Maybe there's a little bit of additional, uh, additional context,
1315. 01:09:15 additional detail, but essentially it's like the, the, um, pep rally for now go do
1316. 01:09:23 the thing.
1317. 01:09:24 And that's not this epilogue.
1318. 01:09:26 Yeah.
1319. 01:09:27 Yeah.
1320. 01:09:28 Like, it just, it just read so weird to me, um, that we had just finished the
1321. 01:09:33 framework.
1322. 01:09:33 We'd just finished trying to apply the framework and like how to go to mastery.
1323. 01:09:37 And then, oh, by the way, that's what it felt like.
1324. 01:09:39 It felt like an Oh, by the way, here's 10 more.
1325. 01:09:41 Here's 10 more things to think about as a design loving company.
1326. 01:09:44 Yeah, some of this stuff, uh, it's, it's really good.
1327. 01:09:47 Some of it is, uh, I think maybe I disagree with it.
1328. 01:09:50 So, um, he talks about using human capital management systems only for payroll,
1329. 01:09:54 time and attendance.
1330. 01:09:56 Um, no AI fakery.
1331. 01:09:58 Yep.
1332. 01:09:58 Agree with that one, keep customer support in house.
1333. 01:10:00 I can see why you would say that one.
1334. 01:10:02 Yadda, yadda, yadda.
1335. 01:10:03 Uh, the note number performance rankings, that one I struggle with a little bit.
1336. 01:10:07 I get the point behind it because you don't want people to feel bad that they've
1337. 01:10:12 just been assigned an arbitrary number by a manager.
1338. 01:10:15 And they never had a discussion about, you know, why did I get this score?
1339. 01:10:18 And what do I do with this and how do I improve?
1340. 01:10:22 But also I feel like the numbered stuff was a big part of the EOS stuff that we
1341. 01:10:29 implemented, um, via 90.io.
1342. 01:10:32 And just because you've got a number does not mean that you have to end up at
1343. 01:10:37 the scenario that he's describing there.
1344. 01:10:41 I think it is very possible to use, uh, numbered performance rankings as jumping
1345. 01:10:46 off points for discussions about how you can actually improve.
1346. 01:10:50 And that kind of hints at something else, which is a little bit of, of, uh, uh,
1347. 01:10:58 I don't know, I feel like a little bit of resistance or like the scratching inside
1348. 01:11:01 of me, because he's talking about love and doing right by all these people.
1349. 01:11:05 Sometimes the right thing to do by people is to let them go.
1350. 01:11:09 What do you do with that?
1351. 01:11:11 That is, if you were to ask them to fill out this, uh, this metric, uh, as part
1352. 01:11:17 of your exit interview, they're not giving you fives.
1353. 01:11:20 They don't understand that maybe that they're not a great fit for this
1354. 01:11:24 organization and they have to, um, you've, you've talked to them and said,
1355. 01:11:29 this is the expectations you've consistently fallen short of this.
1356. 01:11:33 And again, there's like good ways to do that.
1357. 01:11:35 There's bad ways to do that.
1358. 01:11:36 And I think there's a lot of negative connotations that come along with something
1359. 01:11:41 like a performance improvement plan, but it's valuable and it can be very valuable.
1360. 01:11:47 Yeah, you got to do it with love, but this one, this whole section at the end,
1361. 01:11:53 because there's not a whole lot of room here to get into the specific details of
1362. 01:11:56 this feels like maybe we're swinging the pendulum too far the other way.
1363. 01:12:00 Yeah.
1364. 01:12:00 Yeah, I can see that.
1365. 01:12:02 I can very much see that.
1366. 01:12:03 All right. Um, that concludes design love in by Marcus Buckingham.
1367. 01:12:09 I'm intrigued by the next part of our show because I want to know, Mike,
1368. 01:12:13 did you get any action items?
1369. 01:12:14 I will go first, but as you think about that, um, the only action item I got,
1370. 01:12:20 the only action item I got out of this book was I want to walk the stage for
1371. 01:12:25 my engineering students from the moment they think about coming to CCU to the
1372. 01:12:30 moment they graduate.
1373. 01:12:32 Like that is the thing I want to do.
1374. 01:12:34 I want to walk.
1375. 01:12:35 I'm not going to get this done before next week or for our next show.
1376. 01:12:38 So it's like, I'm not even going to try to get it done, but like before we start
1377. 01:12:41 the fall, I want to walk the stage for the incoming engineering students.
1378. 01:12:46 So that is the only action item I got out of this book because everything else
1379. 01:12:53 felt like too much of a reach.
1380. 01:12:56 Like I either don't have the leadership status of the organization or the power
1381. 01:13:01 or I've got to give somebody this book and say, like, Hey, I need you to go read
1382. 01:13:05 this book and then we need to have like a, probably an hour or two hour
1383. 01:13:08 conversation about it.
1384. 01:13:10 And then I'd like to apply some of this stuff, right?
1385. 01:13:12 Like I just, um, so that's my one walk the stage for an incoming engineering
1386. 01:13:16 student.
1387. 01:13:16 How about you?
1388. 01:13:18 I got nothing.
1389. 01:13:21 Um, yeah, I, uh, I think if there had been like a, a tool for implementing
1390. 01:13:27 this in your organization, I would probably want to go check it out.
1391. 01:13:29 But there wasn't anything in here other than the general topic of care about
1392. 01:13:36 people that, uh, I would want to, to implement in my company.
1393. 01:13:43 I, that sounds weird because I'm a solopreneur, but I could see it growing
1394. 01:13:46 at some point and I, I do want to take into consideration some of the principles
1395. 01:13:50 that you talked about here, but not in the way that he described them.
1396. 01:13:54 I think that's, that's where I'm struggling too is like the, some of the
1397. 01:13:57 core ideas I think are solid.
1398. 01:14:00 I think they're good.
1399. 01:14:00 I think business businesses and or nonprofits and or whatever
1400. 01:14:03 organizations are missing these.
1401. 01:14:06 I just don't walk away from this book feeling like I can actionably implement
1402. 01:14:11 those or like I'm going to have to, I'm going to have to work really hard
1403. 01:14:14 to figure out how to implement those and I don't want to do that.
1404. 01:14:17 Right.
1405. 01:14:17 From reading the book.
1406. 01:14:18 Okay.
1407. 01:14:19 All right.
1408. 01:14:19 Let's go to style and rating my book.
1409. 01:14:21 So I'll start.
1410. 01:14:23 Oh, Mike, I don't know.
1411. 01:14:25 I don't know.
1412. 01:14:25 I don't know.
1413. 01:14:26 I don't know.
1414. 01:14:27 We know we've, we've talked about the fact that there's some good core ideas
1415. 01:14:32 here.
1416. 01:14:32 I think there are some good nuggets of this.
1417. 01:14:36 If I think about the will I utilize some of these things, I do.
1418. 01:14:40 Like I think I'll utilize some of the disciplines.
1419. 01:14:43 I'll utilize some of those tools that he describes in the later part of the book.
1420. 01:14:48 I think the general idea of design love in.
1421. 01:14:53 Yeah.
1422. 01:14:54 Like I like that idea.
1423. 01:14:56 I like the idea of experiences lead to out behaviors lead to outcomes.
1424. 01:15:03 Like I think that general framework resonates with me.
1425. 01:15:07 I don't think I needed this to be a book or a multiple hundred page book.
1426. 01:15:13 Like I think this would have been better in for me as like a couple YouTube
1427. 01:15:19 videos, you know, like that like outlined this and kind of gave it to me.
1428. 01:15:23 I just don't think I got enough value out of it.
1429. 01:15:25 I think I would have gotten more out of here's the framework.
1430. 01:15:31 And that would have been three, four, five chapters.
1431. 01:15:34 Here are case studies, three, four, five chapters of how we did this at an
1432. 01:15:39 organization, how we did this at a company.
1433. 01:15:41 And here's how we hit this piece and this piece and this piece and this piece.
1434. 01:15:44 Like I think I would have gotten more out of it that way.
1435. 01:15:47 I do not think there are many people that I am going to say like, listen,
1436. 01:15:52 you need to go, you need to go read this book.
1437. 01:15:54 Like this book is a, you know, it's a, it's a banger.
1438. 01:15:56 Like go, go pick this up and it's going to change your, your life.
1439. 01:16:00 Um, I really don't think that's going to happen.
1440. 01:16:02 I think there might be a couple principles that I would say, have we thought
1441. 01:16:04 about this for the person walking in the door?
1442. 01:16:07 Have we thought about this for, you know, whoever's, whoever's doing that?
1443. 01:16:10 But by no means do they need to go read the book, I can summarize the things
1444. 01:16:14 that, that are relevant there, um, pretty quickly for them.
1445. 01:16:17 So as I, I think about like kind of all the ways that I evaluate the, the ranking
1446. 01:16:25 of a book, I like three is where I'm sitting, but I kind of feel like it's too high.
1447. 01:16:34 So it's like, like, I'm just kind of like, ah, is this really, is it, is it?
1448. 01:16:37 It's definitely not a four or five for me.
1449. 01:16:40 I think I'm going to sit at three because I think there's enough good
1450. 01:16:43 stuff in here that it brings it up to a three, but it doesn't make, it doesn't
1451. 01:16:47 make my, my four or five tier, uh, for me.
1452. 01:16:50 So Mike, how about you?
1453. 01:16:52 What'd you rate this one?
1454. 01:16:54 I'm going to meet you at three.
1455. 01:16:55 That's the number that I landed on, uh, right away.
1456. 01:17:00 Because I think that there's some good stuff in here.
1457. 01:17:02 I think it's a fine read.
1458. 01:17:06 Like it's, it's a fine book.
1459. 01:17:07 This book is fine.
1460. 01:17:09 Fine.
1461. 01:17:10 It's ultra fine.
1462. 01:17:11 It's ultra fine.
1463. 01:17:13 Uh, the interesting stories, um, I like the topic.
1464. 01:17:18 I agree.
1465. 01:17:19 It's important.
1466. 01:17:20 I think it's something people should be thinking about.
1467. 01:17:23 So I'm glad it's, it's out there.
1468. 01:17:24 So somebody's talking about it.
1469. 01:17:26 Um, I have lots of issues.
1470. 01:17:29 I think with, uh, how do you actually implement this?
1471. 01:17:31 I would love to see a self directed version of applying this, this sort of thing.
1472. 01:17:38 Whether that's a tool that you can use or even just a collection of resources.
1473. 01:17:43 That's more in depth than the, uh, the metrics at the end of the chapters.
1474. 01:17:50 That's not enough.
1475. 01:17:52 Sorry.
1476. 01:17:52 It's just, it's just not, um, and then describe the scenarios.
1477. 01:17:56 You know, when, when, uh, no one gives you fives.
1478. 01:18:00 What do you do?
1479. 01:18:01 Or this is how you slice up your time in terms of moving in this direction.
1480. 01:18:06 You know, there's, uh, not a lot of, of application, I feel like for this.
1481. 01:18:10 But I think that Marcus is very learned and knows a lot about this stuff.
1482. 01:18:16 Um, I, I feel like the structure of the book is also kind of weird.
1483. 01:18:19 I actually wish it was another 150 pages.
1484. 01:18:22 I wish there was a section where it talked about, here's how you implement this stuff.
1485. 01:18:26 Here's the cadence.
1486. 01:18:27 Here's the meetings you need, like EOS, the heck out of this, but instead of EOS, it's DLI.
1487. 01:18:33 And then you get into the non-negotiables and I want stories and applications of all that stuff.
1488. 01:18:39 Show me exactly what this looks like in practice.
1489. 01:18:43 You know, that would be a much more valuable book for me as it is.
1490. 01:18:46 It's, it's okay.
1491. 01:18:49 Yeah.
1492. 01:18:50 Yeah.
1493. 01:18:50 It's so funny that you said I wanted more pages because I was thinking the exact
1494. 01:18:53 same thing in the last couple of chapters.
1495. 01:18:55 Yes.
1496. 01:18:55 I was like, oh, like we need to expand this.
1497. 01:18:57 Like this, there needs to be more here and we just didn't get it.
1498. 01:19:00 So I agree with you completely.
1499. 01:19:01 So we're a, we're a double three on this one.
1500. 01:19:04 Um, as you're, as you're thinking about whether to pick this one up, you know, consider whether
1501. 01:19:08 you want to read a double three and how much love, uh, in matters, uh, as you, as you think
1502. 01:19:13 about things.
1503. 01:19:13 Let's put design love in on the shelf.
1504. 01:19:16 Mike, what is our next book?
1505. 01:19:19 Uh, it's design love in part two and I'm just kidding.
1506. 01:19:23 It's, it is very similar.
1507. 01:19:25 Um, I didn't, I didn't make this connection at first when I picked this, but, uh, unreasonable
1508. 01:19:29 hospitality by Will Gidara is the next one, which I think is probably going to have a
1509. 01:19:33 lot of overlap in some of the, the themes per chance.
1510. 01:19:37 Um, but I've heard lots of great things about this book.
1511. 01:19:41 Uh, I've actually brought up that we were reading this to people who wouldn't normally
1512. 01:19:45 listen to bookworm, the types of books that we read wouldn't normally be on their radar
1513. 01:19:51 and had several people be like, Oh yeah, I've read that book and it's great.
1514. 01:19:56 Nice.
1515. 01:19:56 So, and, and this book is also referenced in the one we just read in design love in.
1516. 01:20:02 So, uh, he, he calls that.
1517. 01:20:06 All right.
1518. 01:20:06 After that, uh, we are going to read the book of Elon.
1519. 01:20:10 Uh, this one, I'm just intrigued by Elon Musk and some of the principles.
1520. 01:20:15 And, um, I'm not going to tell you that I'm in love with everything that the man does,
1521. 01:20:19 but I'll tell you what I think it's going to be an interesting book.
1522. 01:20:21 So after that one, it'll be the book of Elon by Eric Jorgensen.
1523. 01:20:25 And I think that it will be a very interesting book.
1524. 01:20:28 Um, I agree.
1525. 01:20:29 Elon is a polarizing figure.
1526. 01:20:31 A lot of people just like anti Elon.
1527. 01:20:33 I would encourage you to listen to this one anyways.
1528. 01:20:35 Eric Jorgensen is the one who did the Almanac of Naval Robicon.
1529. 01:20:39 And that book was amazing.
1530. 01:20:42 I didn't know who Naval Robicon was before I read that book and it was fantastic.
1531. 01:20:47 So Eric Jorgensen is a great author.
1532. 01:20:50 And I think if anybody on the planet could sort through all of the complex threads
1533. 01:20:57 that are inside someone like Elon Musk's head and put it together in a book that's
1534. 01:21:02 going to have actual practical wisdom, it's Eric Jorgensen.
1535. 01:21:05 And so I expect this one to be very good.
1536. 01:21:07 Nice.
1537. 01:21:08 Nice.
1538. 01:21:08 Uh, Mike, do you have any gap books between now and our next recording?
1539. 01:21:13 I do not.
1540. 01:21:14 In fact, with a quick turnaround to record that one before I go to craft and commerce,
1541. 01:21:18 I think we have to record it before I leave.
1542. 01:21:20 Um, that ain't, it ain't happening.
1543. 01:21:23 I'm in the same boat.
1544. 01:21:24 There is no, uh, there's absolutely no gap book happening for me.
1545. 01:21:29 So we are also a double no gap book on this one and this one.
1546. 01:21:34 So thanks for listening along, everybody.
1547. 01:21:36 Um, we want you to know that there is also a pro show, uh, in the pro show.
1548. 01:21:41 We talked about our summer plans and our summer goals and our summer projects
1549. 01:21:45 and kind of what summer looks like.
1550. 01:21:47 Uh, so if you want to, uh, listen to that, uh, feel free to head over to, uh, bookworm.fm/pro.
1551. 01:21:55 Uh, becoming a pro member, uh, just kind of helps us, um, support, you know, some
1552. 01:21:59 of the exterior costs, uh, that, that come with running a show, you get a longer
1553. 01:22:03 ad free, uh, pro show, you get the bootleg, which is released, uh, early.
1554. 01:22:07 So it's usually released one or two weeks before the normal recording comes out.
1555. 01:22:11 Uh, you get a bookworm wallpaper.
1556. 01:22:13 Mike has generously shared his reading masterclass with us.
1557. 01:22:16 So, uh, if you're interested in becoming a pro member and helping support the show,
1558. 01:22:19 it's $7 a month and you can head to bookworm.fm/pro.
1559. 01:22:25 All right.
1560. 01:22:25 If you're reading along with us, pick up a reasonable hospitality by Will Gudara
1561. 01:22:30 and we'll talk to you in a couple of weeks.