48: How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie

Click any line to jump to that moment.

1. 00:00:00 So I have a question.
2. 00:00:00 All right.
3. 00:00:01 It's a good question, I think, because we haven't talked about this.
4. 00:00:04 So you have to tell me, what do you use for a bookmark?
5. 00:00:07 For a bookmark?
6. 00:00:09 A bookmark in my physical books.
7. 00:00:11 Yes.
8. 00:00:12 We've never talked about this.
9. 00:00:13 We've talked about how we read a book, but we've never talked about what we
10. 00:00:17 used to actually remember where we are in that book.
11. 00:00:20 I think that's because my method is pretty lame.
12. 00:00:23 I use a business card.
13. 00:00:26 Is it your business card?
14. 00:00:28 It is.
15. 00:00:29 So it's kind of weird.
16. 00:00:30 Like I take it out and sometimes I flip it over so people can't see my name on it.
17. 00:00:34 When I'm reading the actual book.
18. 00:00:36 But I guess in my mind, if I was to do that, I would probably want two of them
19. 00:00:40 there that way I could give it to somebody for some reason.
20. 00:00:43 But I usually have other business cards on me.
21. 00:00:45 Yeah, that's the thing.
22. 00:00:47 Like I typically don't even have business cards on me, even when I should.
23. 00:00:51 But I always have one in my book, which is never when I'm looking to give them away.
24. 00:00:56 So because if you give it away, then you lose your spot in your book.
25. 00:00:59 Yeah, but I do like the size of the business card.
26. 00:01:03 I don't like having something really big and a business card will fit whatever
27. 00:01:07 size book I happen to be reading.
28. 00:01:09 So whether it's something really short height wise, like I read not too long ago,
29. 00:01:14 the Derek Sivers book, anything you want, the Craven book, make your bed is kind
30. 00:01:18 of the same similar size.
31. 00:01:19 Like if I got a bigger bookmark that would go top to bottom, like you would
32. 00:01:23 typically see a bookmark for some of these bigger books.
33. 00:01:25 Like that would stick out the top of the bottom and it would just drive me crazy.
34. 00:01:28 So the business card basically does not add anything to the book and it's still
35. 00:01:32 easy to throw in my bag and it's not going to get ruined.
36. 00:01:34 Interesting.
37. 00:01:35 I was not expecting that.
38. 00:01:36 This is literally the first time I've thought through this whole process.
39. 00:01:39 So it probably sounds pretty stupid.
40. 00:01:41 So that means it was a perfect question.
41. 00:01:44 I like that.
42. 00:01:46 I want me to curveball right off the bat.
43. 00:01:48 I know.
44. 00:01:49 I know.
45. 00:01:49 I use a, of course, this is, yeah.
46. 00:01:54 The Goulay Pen Company.
47. 00:01:57 So Goulaypins.com, G-O-U-L-E-T-P-E-N-S.com.
48. 00:02:02 It's where I buy my fountain pens, of course.
49. 00:02:05 And when you purchase a pen from them, they send you a bookmark as part of the
50. 00:02:10 little package that they send you.
51. 00:02:12 And that is what I use is that particular bookmark.
52. 00:02:16 What is it?
53. 00:02:17 It's probably, it's a little over an inch wide, maybe an inch and a quarter.
54. 00:02:22 I would say it's maybe six inches long.
55. 00:02:25 Has the Goulay Pen Company on one side.
56. 00:02:28 And then it has a quote by Henry Miller on the other side.
57. 00:02:30 It says, "Writing is its own reward."
58. 00:02:33 Definitely looks like it's been written with a fountain pen.
59. 00:02:35 Nice.
60. 00:02:36 We should make bookworm bookmarks.
61. 00:02:39 Ooh, there's an idea.
62. 00:02:41 Now we're coming up on episode 50.
63. 00:02:42 We're going to have to do something special.
64. 00:02:44 So it's true.
65. 00:02:45 It's sneaking up on us.
66. 00:02:46 I'll do some research.
67. 00:02:48 Okay, good.
68. 00:02:48 That way it's on your camp and not mine.
69. 00:02:50 I like that.
70. 00:02:53 All right, follow up.
71. 00:02:55 I really don't want to go first.
72. 00:02:56 You have to because you have overdue follow up.
73. 00:03:00 You have a red mark in your bookworm omni focus.
74. 00:03:03 I don't use omni focus.
75. 00:03:05 Well, if you did, it would be screaming at you right now because you're so
76. 00:03:08 overdue on your five brand words.
77. 00:03:10 See, here's the benefit of paper.
78. 00:03:13 It doesn't scream at you ever.
79. 00:03:14 But I will.
80. 00:03:16 I didn't do my brand words thing.
81. 00:03:20 Come on, Joe, I know.
82. 00:03:22 I'll be honest with you.
83. 00:03:23 I kind of forgot about it.
84. 00:03:25 OK, I have it in my list.
85. 00:03:29 I saw it, but the last week has been crazy enough that I haven't
86. 00:03:35 really been running off of my lists.
87. 00:03:36 That's, you know, productivity fail right there.
88. 00:03:39 But I wasn't running off of my list for the last week or so because
89. 00:03:43 things have been kind of hectic on my end and it completely fell off my radar
90. 00:03:47 completely.
91. 00:03:49 And when I was putting together some of my stuff for today, I was pulling in
92. 00:03:53 the follow up for this episode and realized, oh, shoot, I messed this one up.
93. 00:03:58 So I am going to continue it onto the next round.
94. 00:04:05 Yeah, audience is going to have to tune in next time to find out your five
95. 00:04:09 brand words, maybe I did not intend this to be a cliffhanger, but here we are.
96. 00:04:15 All right.
97. 00:04:18 Next to our mom, you want me to go next?
98. 00:04:19 Sure.
99. 00:04:20 OK, so the two that I had from the last book that we read, which was the three
100. 00:04:26 big questions for a frantic family by Patrick Lencioni, who, by the way,
101. 00:04:30 I am going to see as we record this in a couple of days at Entre Lee.
102. 00:04:33 Nice.
103. 00:04:34 Super exciting.
104. 00:04:35 Nice.
105. 00:04:35 But the two follow up items I had were number one, identify our family
106. 00:04:40 rally and cry and then number two, create a scoreboard for our family plan.
107. 00:04:45 So I listened to that episode after it was published and I was a little bit
108. 00:04:50 concerned before it went live that I was pretty harsh on the scoring system.
109. 00:04:54 Turns out I was right.
110. 00:04:55 I am pretty harsh on the scoring system.
111. 00:04:57 OK, but I did create.
112. 00:05:00 And actually, I shouldn't say I did this because my wife, we were talking about
113. 00:05:05 this stuff and she got excited about it and she implemented it for me.
114. 00:05:10 So I definitely had help for this round of bookworm follow up cheater.
115. 00:05:14 But we have a whiteboard in our main hallway.
116. 00:05:18 So it's right by our kitchen and the theme for us, I'm trying to pull up the
117. 00:05:23 picture I had to get it exactly right.
118. 00:05:25 But basically it's an orderly home.
119. 00:05:27 And so what does that look like?
120. 00:05:29 There's certain habits that we want to implement.
121. 00:05:31 And what we did is we created three, again, we, my wife created three
122. 00:05:37 pie graphs and broke them into seven pieces.
123. 00:05:41 So Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday.
124. 00:05:44 Labeled them as such.
125. 00:05:45 And then for each of those pies, we had the habit that we wanted to establish
126. 00:05:50 with our kids specifically.
127. 00:05:52 So our kids are great.
128. 00:05:53 They do a great job with most of the stuff they're supposed to do most of the time.
129. 00:05:57 But there's little things that we recognized.
130. 00:05:59 And again, my wife recognized that would make a lot of the stuff that we do a lot
131. 00:06:03 more streamlined.
132. 00:06:05 It would be a lot simpler if like we could just get right, get this down.
133. 00:06:08 You know, so one of the things in the pies is making beds every day.
134. 00:06:13 So we fill in the piece of the pie.
135. 00:06:16 If everybody makes their bed in the morning without being compelled to do so.
136. 00:06:20 Okay.
137. 00:06:22 And then the second one is toys are cleaned up.
138. 00:06:25 So in the afternoon, everything gets put away.
139. 00:06:28 There is nothing left out.
140. 00:06:30 And then the third one, we've labeled mealtime manners.
141. 00:06:33 So we've got a couple of picky eaters sometimes.
142. 00:06:36 And so we're trying to do a couple of things.
143. 00:06:39 Number one, get through dinner in less than an hour.
144. 00:06:43 And also get people to clean up their plates when they're done.
145. 00:06:45 So if they do that, you know, they just shade the pie and then the reward for
146. 00:06:51 completing the pies is that all the kids get an hour, like we ration their, their
147. 00:06:57 video game time.
148. 00:06:58 So this is a bonus on top of their normal video game time.
149. 00:07:01 So they normally get like 30 minutes a day or something like that.
150. 00:07:03 Right.
151. 00:07:04 But the bonus was an hour of Rocket League, because they like pulling that all
152. 00:07:07 together on the switch.
153. 00:07:09 Nice.
154. 00:07:10 On Saturday afternoons.
155. 00:07:11 OK, so they have to get all the pies filled and we adjusted some of them.
156. 00:07:15 So like initially, mealtime manners was just cleaning up your plates at the end.
157. 00:07:18 But we recognized after a week of doing that and hitting the goal that really
158. 00:07:22 the next level pain point there is that someone in particular tends to not pay
159. 00:07:28 attention and not eat until like everybody else is done.
160. 00:07:31 And a lot of times it's just like intentional to where it's like he's not
161. 00:07:37 paying attention at the beginning.
162. 00:07:39 And then you tell them to, it's almost like the fact that you told them to eat
163. 00:07:41 like he resents that now he's actively rebelling against what you want him to do.
164. 00:07:46 Right.
165. 00:07:47 So that's not a good situation.
166. 00:07:48 So we're trying to try to change that behavior.
167. 00:07:50 And that's not going to be a win every time.
168. 00:07:52 There have been meals where it's like, oh, sorry, buddy, like this is not mealtime
169. 00:07:55 manners.
170. 00:07:56 Like we can't fill out the pie for this.
171. 00:07:57 So we've given them basically three strikes here out so you can miss two of them
172. 00:08:01 and then you'd still get the reward and we're going to keep upping the stuff in the
173. 00:08:04 pie basically so that there is a little bit of grace if they they mess up and they
174. 00:08:08 they don't complete all the time, you know, they mess up on Monday afternoon.
175. 00:08:11 We don't want all the incentive to follow through the rest of the week to be gone.
176. 00:08:14 But also we want to create these habits, which if we're able to establish these,
177. 00:08:19 who knows how long this will actually take, but if we were to be able to get these
178. 00:08:23 things nailed down, like it just makes everything else so much easier.
179. 00:08:26 So that's that's the goal and that's how we've implemented it.
180. 00:08:29 Yeah, that's really interesting.
181. 00:08:30 I think, you know, kids are very visual because, you know, with stuff that we do,
182. 00:08:35 it's easy to write down goals and then you can kind of visualize those goals to
183. 00:08:40 some extent or another, but kids don't really do that.
184. 00:08:44 I mean, they can, but it's way easier for them to have something to look at.
185. 00:08:49 So I think it's really cool that you've got a system in place that like they can
186. 00:08:53 always at any time go see where they're at in the process.
187. 00:08:56 And when they accomplish something, there's something physical for them to do or see
188. 00:09:00 to see how things are going.
189. 00:09:02 So I think that's really cool.
190. 00:09:03 Yeah.
191. 00:09:04 And it's way simpler than the Patrick Lenzioni version.
192. 00:09:07 So I was thinking about that.
193. 00:09:08 Like, right, how far have we digressed from what he laid out in that book?
194. 00:09:12 Was it really that different?
195. 00:09:13 And I went back and I looked at it and like, no, it really was that different.
196. 00:09:16 Right.
197. 00:09:17 So he's got the rallying cry, like we've got the rallying cry.
198. 00:09:19 We call it something a little bit, a little bit different.
199. 00:09:22 It's basically just a word on the top of the board.
200. 00:09:24 From there, he's got his standard indexes, I think, where the first level
201. 00:09:28 and those he mentions, you should use a color dot to indicate how well you're
202. 00:09:32 doing in those particular areas.
203. 00:09:34 In order to do that, you've got to have a definition of done, yada, yada, yada.
204. 00:09:37 And then from there, you've got defining objectives underneath that.
205. 00:09:41 So we've completely eliminated the defining objectives.
206. 00:09:43 We've reduced the number of the standard objectives and we've made the scoring super,
207. 00:09:48 super simple.
208. 00:09:49 Did we do this or did we not?
209. 00:09:50 There's no on a daily basis trying to figure out, is this dark green?
210. 00:09:55 Is it yellow?
211. 00:09:56 Is it orange?
212. 00:09:56 Is it red?
213. 00:09:57 Yeah, it is what it is.
214. 00:09:59 Either it happened or it didn't.
215. 00:10:00 And I think that that's really the important detail, which is helping this stick.
216. 00:10:04 That's cool.
217. 00:10:04 Well done.
218. 00:10:05 I'm impressed.
219. 00:10:07 I can't say that that was what I was expecting out of you, but I'm not really
220. 00:10:10 sure what I was expecting.
221. 00:10:12 Again, full credit to Mrs. Rachel Schmitz for this.
222. 00:10:15 If I had come up with this, it would probably be different, but she showed it to me.
223. 00:10:19 And I'm like, yeah, actually, that makes a lot of sense.
224. 00:10:22 Let's do that.
225. 00:10:23 And so, yeah, it's working.
226. 00:10:24 She even took some pictures when she implemented it.
227. 00:10:27 So we homeschool our kids.
228. 00:10:28 Yeah.
229. 00:10:28 She lined them all up in the hallway, had them all look at the board, explained it,
230. 00:10:32 like, teach your friend in the class sort of a thing.
231. 00:10:34 Yeah.
232. 00:10:34 Like, this is what this means.
233. 00:10:35 Do you guys all get it?
234. 00:10:36 And they're all sitting in the hallway, not in their heads.
235. 00:10:39 It's pretty, pretty funny.
236. 00:10:41 But yeah, I mean, that's honestly the reason that it's sticking is that I'm not
237. 00:10:45 the one responsible for following through with this every single day, which again,
238. 00:10:49 like this comes back to the whole idea behind that book is you have to find
239. 00:10:54 something that is going to work, like not to rehash the whole last episode.
240. 00:10:57 But the lady in that story, she went and told all her friends and they're like,
241. 00:11:00 yeah, it's not going to work.
242. 00:11:01 And so Patrick Loneseone tries to simplify it.
243. 00:11:04 We simplified it a lot further, but really, like, I think that principle can be applied
244. 00:11:08 to anything that we talk about here in bookworm, any productivity principle that you
245. 00:11:12 hear about, it's not just a formula for you to follow.
246. 00:11:14 Like you got to figure out how to custom fit it for you.
247. 00:11:17 And in this particular case, you know, my wife did a great job of that.
248. 00:11:20 And this is really what works for our family.
249. 00:11:21 I still think that's really cool.
250. 00:11:22 So good job, Rachel.
251. 00:11:24 Mike gets to take all the credit here, but well done.
252. 00:11:30 Yeah, we we did a little bit of work on the whole scoreboard side of this for
253. 00:11:36 ours as well.
254. 00:11:37 Now I took our family rallying cry, which is, you know, it's it's kind of a it's own thing.
255. 00:11:45 You know, we went through this again, I'm not going to belabor that, but the whole
256. 00:11:48 white space and outdoors thing from that one of the aspects of that is getting outside
257. 00:11:53 every week.
258. 00:11:53 And what we did to help with that process is I just put a checkbox for each week of
259. 00:12:00 the summer.
260. 00:12:01 And if we get the family outdoors to explore the woods or something throughout that week,
261. 00:12:07 we get to check that box off.
262. 00:12:09 That is the sum total of our scoreboard right there.
263. 00:12:12 It's not anything beyond that because, you know, the whole weekly thing from a meeting
264. 00:12:19 standpoint doesn't really make a whole lot of sense for us, but that the girls can get behind
265. 00:12:24 and they have a thing like we haven't been able to check that off yet this week, you know, as
266. 00:12:29 we're recording this and I think I get asked about it quite a bit every day.
267. 00:12:33 It's like, Dad, are we going to be able to check this one off?
268. 00:12:35 Are we going to be able to?
269. 00:12:36 Can I put the X in the box?
270. 00:12:38 Like, well, no, we haven't we haven't taken the family out yet, but they are all over
271. 00:12:43 that they are itching to just to be able to put the check mark in the box.
272. 00:12:48 Nice.
273. 00:12:48 Kids, they make it fun and challenging.
274. 00:12:50 It's true, which I suppose brings us to today's book, Mike.
275. 00:12:55 Yes.
276. 00:12:55 Fun and challenging.
277. 00:12:56 Yes.
278. 00:12:58 So today's book is one that I picked and I picked it just because I wanted to dig into it.
279. 00:13:05 Very polarizing opinions on this one based on what I've heard from people around me.
280. 00:13:10 And that is How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie.
281. 00:13:14 So this book first published in 1937.
282. 00:13:18 So this is definitely an older book, but I actually kind of like that because the stuff
283. 00:13:22 that he talks about in here, it's not technology based.
284. 00:13:25 It's for lack of a better term evergreen.
285. 00:13:28 Like a lot of these are principles that are totally relevant today, even though
286. 00:13:33 the time that he wrote it was completely different, if that makes sense.
287. 00:13:36 That cannot always be said with some of the books that we read.
288. 00:13:40 So like one that I'm thinking of in particular is the innovators dilemma where he's
289. 00:13:45 talking about a lot of these technology based companies and things.
290. 00:13:48 And there were some parallels there, but for the most part of my recollection of that
291. 00:13:52 book, when I was going through it, was like, yeah, that's not really the way things
292. 00:13:55 are anymore.
293. 00:13:56 Yeah.
294. 00:13:57 You know, you definitely don't get that sense reading this book.
295. 00:14:01 There's a lot of great stuff in here.
296. 00:14:03 It's broken down into four different sections and then an introduction.
297. 00:14:07 So that's kind of when I took a stab at creating the outline, that's kind of how
298. 00:14:10 I broke this down.
299. 00:14:11 But I don't want to be the one who's dictating the whole format for this.
300. 00:14:14 So I guess, you know, wherever you want to go from here, we can.
301. 00:14:18 There's too much in this book to go through everything, even just to break down the
302. 00:14:23 individual principles.
303. 00:14:24 I mean, the four parts, the first part, there's only a couple chapters, the second part,
304. 00:14:29 there's six, the third part, there's 12.
305. 00:14:32 And then the fourth part, there's nine.
306. 00:14:33 So we're not going to go through like all of the different principles that are in here.
307. 00:14:36 I thought maybe we could just take some of the ones that kind of stood out to us.
308. 00:14:40 Yeah, I think that's, I think that's a good approach.
309. 00:14:42 I know with this book as a whole one, it's nice to know that it's written in 1936.
310. 00:14:47 Collected in my notes file for this one, all of the principles across the whole thing.
311. 00:14:53 That way I can look at all of them.
312. 00:14:55 And there's not a single one of them here that's into like, it requires a time period.
313. 00:15:00 Like none of them require that, which is kind of impressive for a book of any genre.
314. 00:15:07 Like it just, that doesn't seem to happen a whole lot anymore.
315. 00:15:10 And I think that's really cool to see this.
316. 00:15:13 I will say that this one, it kind of struck home for me in, in a lot of ways.
317. 00:15:20 There's a number of these principles that this is something I've done for a very long
318. 00:15:24 time and people always leave that scenario with a smile on their face.
319. 00:15:28 And I always thought that was really cool, but I never really understood why.
320. 00:15:33 And this actually explains some of that.
321. 00:15:37 So I thought that was really interesting.
322. 00:15:38 But again, to your point, there's a lot here.
323. 00:15:40 This is a lot to go through.
324. 00:15:42 So I agree.
325. 00:15:44 We, we, we're not going to go over every principle here.
326. 00:15:46 I think there's a handful of them that we're going to cover in that you've got in this
327. 00:15:51 outline.
328. 00:15:51 I kind of left it open because you, you went through this mic and put a bunch of stuff
329. 00:15:55 in here, which is really cool.
330. 00:15:56 But I felt like if I put any more, like we were going to be here for three hours, so.
331. 00:16:00 I kind of just left it and, you know, I've got some points on some of these that I'll,
332. 00:16:06 I'll bring up as well.
333. 00:16:07 Cause I did really enjoy this, you know, just as a precursor to the whole conversation.
334. 00:16:12 But one thing that I found myself continually trying to do with this was think
335. 00:16:18 through ways that it applies to my kids and in trying to compare the principles
336. 00:16:24 that are mentioned here with how I currently interact with my children.
337. 00:16:30 And my girls, I know it, the whole scenario, like me as a parent, like sometimes I
338. 00:16:38 get upset with the things that they're doing and he talks a lot about your
339. 00:16:43 reaction to someone else when they are doing something that is either incorrect
340. 00:16:47 or is somewhat offensive to you.
341. 00:16:50 And there are a lot of ways to settle yourself down and interact with that
342. 00:16:56 person to help guide them.
343. 00:16:57 And I couldn't help applying that to disciplinary action with my children in some
344. 00:17:04 way.
345. 00:17:05 So I don't know.
346. 00:17:06 Maybe we'll get into some of that, but I did think it was kind of interesting that
347. 00:17:09 if you try to apply it even outside of, say, business scenarios, which is, I think
348. 00:17:13 where a lot of people tend to assume this book is, is applied, but it doesn't have
349. 00:17:18 to be.
350. 00:17:18 I guess that's what I'm getting at is it's kind of interesting to consider this
351. 00:17:22 even outside of that realm.
352. 00:17:23 Yeah.
353. 00:17:24 I mean, everything in this book can be applied in a lot of different situations.
354. 00:17:27 And he tells a ton of different stories to try to illustrate that point.
355. 00:17:31 He'll talk about people using it with their kids.
356. 00:17:33 He'll talk about people using it in a business arena.
357. 00:17:36 He'll talk about people using it in a political arena.
358. 00:17:40 And every time he switches the context of the story, he kind of like abrasively is
359. 00:17:46 like, oh, so you don't think this is going to work in this scenario.
360. 00:17:48 Eh?
361. 00:17:48 And then he just shows you how like, oh, I know somebody who did do this.
362. 00:17:53 And this is their experience.
363. 00:17:54 So there's tons of stories in here.
364. 00:17:55 I did find it interesting.
365. 00:17:57 I had no idea that this was basically 19 1930s version of a lead magnet.
366. 00:18:02 Because at the end, he talks about his school for public speaking.
367. 00:18:08 And the version I have anyway is there's a section at the very end, which is called
368. 00:18:13 a shortcut to distinction, which is written by somebody else.
369. 00:18:16 Right.
370. 00:18:16 And it tells a little bit of Dale Carnegie's story.
371. 00:18:18 And they mentioned some stuff in there about how he used to just start taking out
372. 00:18:22 these newspaper ads, he'd show up at these hotels and he'd teach people how to do
373. 00:18:26 this and he'd get a bunch of people to sign up for his course.
374. 00:18:28 And over the course of his career, he criticized something personally, like a
375. 00:18:32 150,000 speeches, which is crazy.
376. 00:18:35 Like he was personally involved in a lot of these people's success, which I think is
377. 00:18:38 really cool.
378. 00:18:39 But it kind of changes a little bit how you view this book when you think that like,
379. 00:18:45 okay, this is something to get you to do something else.
380. 00:18:48 And maybe it's just the space that I work in where like typically a lead magnet,
381. 00:18:52 you think of something like, oh, you want to tease what you're going to give,
382. 00:18:55 but you don't want to give it all away because you want really then to take this
383. 00:18:58 particular action, whether that's download your ebook or
384. 00:19:02 give you their email or whatever.
385. 00:19:04 Like that's exactly what he's doing here, but it doesn't feel sleazy.
386. 00:19:08 It doesn't feel scammy.
387. 00:19:10 There's a lot of great information in this book, but all of these different
388. 00:19:14 chapters that he breaks down, I did definitely feel like you could write an
389. 00:19:18 entire book on a lot of these different principles.
390. 00:19:21 And so this is very, I don't want to say surface level, but it's introductory
391. 00:19:26 in a lot of ways to a lot of these concepts.
392. 00:19:29 There's the possibility that this is a lead magnet 1930 style.
393. 00:19:32 I kind of got the impression that this was more of a way to capture his thinking
394. 00:19:39 and his, the teaching that he does not to try to get you to sign up for one of
395. 00:19:45 those, but so that he could reach even more people.
396. 00:19:47 Like that was the perception I got from it.
397. 00:19:49 Maybe it was to sell stuff.
398. 00:19:51 I just didn't get that impression.
399. 00:19:53 Maybe that's just because people are a little more upfront about how they do
400. 00:19:57 that in today's world and they were more subtle in the olden days.
401. 00:20:01 That's even some of his stuff is be subtle.
402. 00:20:04 So maybe I don't know.
403. 00:20:06 It'd be hard to know.
404. 00:20:07 Yeah.
405. 00:20:07 I, I definitely, I think that it's not necessarily more explicit or straightforward
406. 00:20:15 nowadays.
407. 00:20:16 Like, I think there's a lot of people who don't understand what's going to happen
408. 00:20:20 when they give an email to download an ebook.
409. 00:20:22 Right.
410. 00:20:23 It's not very clear what the intentions are of the person on the other end,
411. 00:20:27 but I also don't think that you have to be naturally skeptical either,
412. 00:20:32 which is really the thing that stood out to me is he wrote this in 1937.
413. 00:20:38 And I'm approaching it in 2018.
414. 00:20:42 And my first response is this is a lead magnet.
415. 00:20:45 How does that make me feel?
416. 00:20:46 Does it make me feel like he's really trying to help me or does it feel like he's
417. 00:20:50 just trying to sell me and we're going to get to that specific point.
418. 00:20:53 In a little bit, I did not feel like it was him trying to, to sell me.
419. 00:20:57 And I think that also, if you are clear about your intentions about helping people
420. 00:21:03 and you're authentic, which is really the key, that there's nothing to be ashamed
421. 00:21:07 of in the fact that you're trying to sell something on the back end anyways.
422. 00:21:12 So, but it isn't something that I expected in a 1937 book.
423. 00:21:17 True.
424. 00:21:18 But that kind of leads into this whole idea of the selfish tone, which is really
425. 00:21:21 one of the reasons that I picked this is that there's people who say this book is
426. 00:21:25 amazing.
427. 00:21:25 There are other people who say this book is garbage.
428. 00:21:28 And I think that really what it hinges on is this improper view of what this book
429. 00:21:35 is trying to do.
430. 00:21:35 And the title doesn't help it out, at least in today's society, you know, like
431. 00:21:39 wind friends and influence people makes it sound like a game and you're not
432. 00:21:43 concerned about the other person.
433. 00:21:45 And I think based on the content of this book that honestly, nothing could be
434. 00:21:48 further from the truth.
435. 00:21:50 And he talks about, I think it's page 45.
436. 00:21:53 He talks about people who are in sales, who succeed versus those who don't.
437. 00:22:00 And it's based on the principles that he's outlining in this book.
438. 00:22:03 He says on page 45, thousands of sales, people are pounding the pavement today,
439. 00:22:06 tired, discouraged and underpaid.
440. 00:22:07 Why?
441. 00:22:08 Because they're always thinking only of what they want.
442. 00:22:11 They don't realize that neither you nor I want to buy anything.
443. 00:22:14 If we did, we would go out and buy it.
444. 00:22:16 But both of us are eternally interested in solving our problems.
445. 00:22:19 And if salespeople can show us how their services or merchandise will help us
446. 00:22:22 solve our problems, they won't need to sell us, we'll buy.
447. 00:22:25 And customers like to feel that they are buying not being sold.
448. 00:22:28 I think that's a really important distinction.
449. 00:22:30 And I think that that is definitely accurate regarding this book.
450. 00:22:35 At least that was my impression.
451. 00:22:36 Do you agree?
452. 00:22:37 Disagree?
453. 00:22:38 I think this comes from, if you read the title, given today's culture and today's
454. 00:22:43 everything, it comes across as like a manipulation handbook of sorts.
455. 00:22:49 Like that's, it's kind of how you could view it.
456. 00:22:52 Yeah.
457. 00:22:52 These are a list of things you can do to get people to think the way you want them to
458. 00:22:56 think.
459. 00:22:57 And that's very manipulative.
460. 00:22:59 But I think that Dale Carnegie comes at this book with the assumption that your
461. 00:23:05 desires for other people are genuine and that you have solid and quality products
462. 00:23:14 and motives behind what it is that you're you're trying to get across.
463. 00:23:20 So he comes at it with the assumption that you are not trying to put one over
464. 00:23:26 on someone, but that you are being a, a, an authentic help to that person.
465. 00:23:32 I think if you come at it from the viewpoint that you have to have a positive
466. 00:23:36 motive behind the actions that you're taking and you are real in those, this is
467. 00:23:42 gold.
468. 00:23:43 But if you're coming at this from the viewpoint that this is how I can get people
469. 00:23:48 to buy my product, that I think is where, you know, it comes across as your bit of
470. 00:23:53 a snake to the whole, the whole book.
471. 00:23:56 And that's not the way I would take it.
472. 00:24:00 I found this extremely helpful.
473. 00:24:01 I think that's because I try to, you know, a prime example, you know, take the
474. 00:24:07 buying versus being sold bit with what I'm doing as a web developer.
475. 00:24:12 I try to convey to people, this is how I can help you.
476. 00:24:17 But a lot of times it would be very easy for me to sell, say a retainer or a
477. 00:24:21 consulting services in a scenario that it's not needed.
478. 00:24:24 And I could sell that that would actually be very easy to sell in a lot of cases,
479. 00:24:30 but that person doesn't need it.
480. 00:24:32 And honestly, this is one of the reasons that I've been trying to build up my web
481. 00:24:36 development business is because there's a lot of, you know, bad developers out
482. 00:24:40 there that are selling a lot of stuff and let instead of letting the customers and
483. 00:24:46 the clients, you know, convey their idea and you genuinely helping them through
484. 00:24:50 that without ripping them off.
485. 00:24:52 Like that's part of why I'm wanting to build that business just because it
486. 00:24:55 doesn't, I have a hard time finding that.
487. 00:24:58 So I'm trying to build that for my viewpoint.
488. 00:25:00 My motives are genuine.
489. 00:25:01 Like that's, you know, it's hard to get my own head out of that to some extent.
490. 00:25:05 He even goes into that.
491. 00:25:06 But to me that knowing that this is extremely helpful.
492. 00:25:10 So I try to help people buy what they need as opposed to selling them things
493. 00:25:15 they don't need.
494. 00:25:16 So I'm with you on that.
495. 00:25:17 Yeah.
496. 00:25:17 Here's the thing that I want to call out though is like no one is going to say,
497. 00:25:22 don't give me money.
498. 00:25:24 You know, if there, if there really isn't a match there to be made between your
499. 00:25:28 abilities and what the customer wants, like we need to get over the fact that
500. 00:25:32 we are selfish a lot of the time.
501. 00:25:36 And even says on page 34, every act you have ever performed since the day you
502. 00:25:40 were born was performed because you wanted something.
503. 00:25:43 If we're honest with ourselves, that is completely true and that is completely
504. 00:25:47 okay.
505. 00:25:48 Like it's okay to want something.
506. 00:25:51 It's not okay to put other people down in order to get it.
507. 00:25:55 But I think like this whole idea of being sold versus buying and the whole
508. 00:26:01 picture of a salesperson really just conjures up like the, the used car
509. 00:26:06 salesman who's trying to sell you a lemon and that's not fair.
510. 00:26:10 That's not fair to really anybody who is in sales.
511. 00:26:13 And honestly, I would say that every single person is in sales in some way, shape
512. 00:26:17 or form.
513. 00:26:17 I really believe that if you want to be a leader, you have to be a salesperson.
514. 00:26:21 And if you are married, you've sold yourself at least once.
515. 00:26:25 You know, you had to convince your significant other that you could, you could
516. 00:26:29 make all their wildest dreams come true.
517. 00:26:31 Whether you personally believe that or not, like you did sell that.
518. 00:26:34 Is that a bad thing?
519. 00:26:36 No, it's not a bad thing.
520. 00:26:37 And so there's a hurdle to get over here, I think, for a lot of people who have
521. 00:26:42 this view of like, well, I'm not going to project my values on other people.
522. 00:26:47 Like, no, let's just call a spade a spade here and just admit that we're all
523. 00:26:50 salespeople and we all have selfish desires that we're trying to fulfill.
524. 00:26:53 And that doesn't make us bad people.
525. 00:26:55 No, very fair point, fair point.
526. 00:27:00 You've got one more here.
527. 00:27:02 I suppose we didn't really say it, but we're talking through part one here, which
528. 00:27:05 is fundamental techniques and handling people.
529. 00:27:07 That's the section we're kind of working on here.
530. 00:27:10 Yep.
531. 00:27:10 But there's, there's one more point here and you have that as the difference
532. 00:27:14 between flattery and appreciation.
533. 00:27:16 Yeah, I probably should have put this at the end.
534. 00:27:18 I put it first in the outline because that's where it was in terms of like
535. 00:27:22 where it was in the book.
536. 00:27:23 Right.
537. 00:27:24 But I think having talked about the quote unquote selfish tone of the book,
538. 00:27:28 the whole idea of buying versus being sold, that really sets the stage for this.
539. 00:27:33 And this is the acid test for whether you are using this to manipulate people or
540. 00:27:39 you are using this to create win-win situations and better your own situation
541. 00:27:43 and everybody else around you.
542. 00:27:45 And that is this difference that he calls out between flattery and appreciation.
543. 00:27:49 So flattery is what you're going to use if you are manipulative and flattery.
544. 00:27:54 He calls out in this first section is counterfeit.
545. 00:27:56 So you can say, Oh, I really like this about you and you don't mean it at all.
546. 00:28:00 Okay.
547. 00:28:00 That's not authentic.
548. 00:28:02 That's flattery.
549. 00:28:03 That's counterfeit.
550. 00:28:04 But the other side of that is appreciation, which is sincere.
551. 00:28:07 And I think that until you start applying some of the stuff in this book, you may
552. 00:28:12 approach this.
553. 00:28:13 I know I did it first is like, well, what if I really don't like something about
554. 00:28:17 somebody?
555. 00:28:18 Do I am I going to have to lie in order to implement this stuff?
556. 00:28:21 I mean, I can't criticize.
557. 00:28:23 I can't do all these things.
558. 00:28:24 Like am I just going to have to make up stuff that I like about this?
559. 00:28:27 These other people.
560. 00:28:28 But once you start implementing it, it's not that difficult, at least in my
561. 00:28:32 experience to find something that you can appreciate.
562. 00:28:35 And people can tell the difference between true appreciation, which is sincere and
563. 00:28:39 flattery, which is counterfeit.
564. 00:28:40 And it's just way too much effort, in my opinion, to try to be counterfeit and
565. 00:28:45 keep track of what you told, which person just like, say what you mean, but focus
566. 00:28:49 on the positive.
567. 00:28:50 If I were to condense everything down in this book, that's what it would be.
568. 00:28:52 That's probably a good summary of that whole thing is just, you know, be
569. 00:28:57 genuine.
570. 00:28:58 So I'm trying to make stuff up.
571. 00:29:00 That's that's a kind of a recurring theme here is he says a lot of times.
572. 00:29:07 Whenever, let me just grab an example here, because he's got a number of these
573. 00:29:12 principles where he will say things like, be a good listener and encourage
574. 00:29:16 others to talk about themselves.
575. 00:29:18 But that's a good principle.
576. 00:29:20 But that requires you to be real with it.
577. 00:29:24 Like be an active listener in that and be a good listener.
578. 00:29:28 But don't just ask questions randomly because you're just trying to keep them
579. 00:29:32 talking.
580. 00:29:33 Like that's not the reason, like show an interest.
581. 00:29:36 Like that is like be genuinely interested in other people.
582. 00:29:39 Like that's even another principle right there.
583. 00:29:41 Like this is a thing that continues to recur throughout the book.
584. 00:29:45 So I think maybe he's kind of short circuiting the opposition to this and
585. 00:29:51 people jumping ahead of him and saying, okay, well, this is how I can get
586. 00:29:54 people to do what I want.
587. 00:29:55 Like even even in each principle, he talks about that.
588. 00:29:58 Yeah.
589. 00:29:59 And just using that one as an example, because I like that, you know, be
590. 00:30:05 interested in the other person and what they have to say.
591. 00:30:07 I mean, you can tell me personally anyways, like I know people who will
592. 00:30:12 come up to me and be like, Hey, how's it going?
593. 00:30:14 What are you working on?
594. 00:30:14 Whatever.
595. 00:30:15 And as soon as they ask the question, I like hesitate to answer because I
596. 00:30:20 can just see the glazed over look in their eyes.
597. 00:30:22 And I know they're not really paying attention.
598. 00:30:25 Right.
599. 00:30:25 You know, so you can apply that to any one of these principles.
600. 00:30:29 And in that case, you know, it's flattery.
601. 00:30:31 It's a counterfeit.
602. 00:30:32 But when that person says that and we make a connection, I can tell that
603. 00:30:36 they're really interested.
604. 00:30:38 And then we have a great conversation and who knows where that leads.
605. 00:30:41 Like that's sincere.
606. 00:30:42 And I can't, I can't describe what that does in terms of building up goodwill.
607. 00:30:48 Like if you go back to seven habits, how they affected people, I think
608. 00:30:52 the, he used the, the term the emotional savings account.
609. 00:30:55 So everything in this book, you can either be, you can either be sincere in it
610. 00:31:00 and your, your building, your making deposits, or you can be counterfeit in
611. 00:31:05 which case you're making withdrawals.
612. 00:31:07 And very, very quickly, you're going to be emotionally bankrupt.
613. 00:31:10 If you try to implement this stuff in a counterfeit way, people are
614. 00:31:14 familiar with the concept of filler words.
615. 00:31:16 I mean, and like, awesome.
616. 00:31:18 You know, this, that's amazing.
617. 00:31:19 And like they have these words that they used to just fill empty space.
618. 00:31:23 Oh, I'm so busy.
619. 00:31:24 Yeah.
620. 00:31:25 Yeah.
621. 00:31:25 Do you ever run across people that have filler questions where, you know,
622. 00:31:29 it starts to get quiet and they want to spark a conversation.
623. 00:31:32 So they'll like, you know, well, what are you doing this weekend?
624. 00:31:35 Or what else is going on?
625. 00:31:37 You know, they have these questions and they'll ask sometimes the same
626. 00:31:40 question gets asked repeatedly throughout a similar, the same conversation.
627. 00:31:44 But do you ever run across this?
628. 00:31:46 I feel like I keep finding people who do this.
629. 00:31:48 Dude, I live near Green Bay, Wisconsin.
630. 00:31:50 The ultimate filler question is, Oh, did you see the game on Sunday?
631. 00:31:53 I mean, 50% of our radio programming is determined by the success
632. 00:32:03 of the, the National Football League team.
633. 00:32:04 And in my opinion, that is, that is the ultimate filler because you may make a
634. 00:32:11 surface level connection with people by talking about what happened in the game.
635. 00:32:14 And I'm not saying that there's no good from that.
636. 00:32:16 But every time I find myself in that situation, I'm like, Oh, okay,
637. 00:32:20 we're going to do this dance now.
638. 00:32:22 Like I was hoping this might be meaningful, but I guess not.
639. 00:32:25 Right.
640. 00:32:26 Yeah.
641. 00:32:27 I feel like I keep running across these or maybe I'm just noticing them.
642. 00:32:30 And I find it extremely frustrating because like, well, they're asking me a
643. 00:32:35 question.
644. 00:32:36 I have to respond, but I can tell they're checked out already and don't really
645. 00:32:42 want to know the answer to this question.
646. 00:32:45 So why am I answering it?
647. 00:32:47 I even had one case where I just said, I don't think you really want to know the
648. 00:32:50 answer to that.
649. 00:32:51 And I just kind of moved on.
650. 00:32:52 Like I was so frustrated by it.
651. 00:32:54 Like, cause I had answered the same question three times.
652. 00:32:57 Like seriously, let's, let's move on.
653. 00:32:59 We need to get past this.
654. 00:33:00 I don't think I've experienced that.
655. 00:33:02 And let me clarify, I guess, with the, uh, the sports ball example, because I'm
656. 00:33:05 actually a sports fan, but I guess the context that I see it is like, you're
657. 00:33:09 standing in an elevator next to somebody and they're just trying to fill the
658. 00:33:12 silence.
659. 00:33:12 And so it's like, no, just be quiet.
660. 00:33:14 Like we can ride in silence.
661. 00:33:17 It's okay.
662. 00:33:17 You're not going to remember any of this.
663. 00:33:20 It's not going to make any difference.
664. 00:33:21 Like who cares?
665. 00:33:22 Let's just skip this.
666. 00:33:24 Fair enough.
667. 00:33:25 All right.
668. 00:33:26 Part two, six ways to make people like you.
669. 00:33:28 Again, these titles are not helping the fact that this is not a manipulation
670. 00:33:33 handbook.
671. 00:33:34 No, they're not.
672. 00:33:35 Makes it worse.
673. 00:33:36 I would say six ways to incentivize people to like you.
674. 00:33:40 Maybe you can tell it was written in the thirties, right?
675. 00:33:42 Yeah.
676. 00:33:44 The first one I have here in quotes is from a story that he told about this
677. 00:33:50 magician who would say before he would go out to perform, I love my audience.
678. 00:33:56 And it's kind of the positive self talk sort of a thing, but in his example,
679. 00:34:03 like this guy really lived it out.
680. 00:34:05 And I thought this was really cool.
681. 00:34:07 Uh, one of the quote unquote action items that I wrote down, not really action items.
682. 00:34:11 So I have action items that I've listed here, but there's a lot of
683. 00:34:14 stuff in this book that isn't really something that you're going to take action
684. 00:34:18 on.
685. 00:34:18 It's more something to put in your memory banks.
686. 00:34:21 So the next time you're in this situation, you know how to handle it the right way.
687. 00:34:24 And so this is one of the things that falls into that second category where it's
688. 00:34:28 not like you're going to be able to hold me accountable to this, but it's
689. 00:34:32 something that I want to apply to my mindset whenever I sit down to create
690. 00:34:37 something like as we're recording this podcast episode, I want to give the audience
691. 00:34:42 the best that I possibly can.
692. 00:34:44 And again, you could say, well, you're just performing your fake, like not necessarily,
693. 00:34:50 like there are going to be people who fall into that category where everything
694. 00:34:53 that they're doing is a show.
695. 00:34:54 But like I said, I personally think it's way too much work to try to maintain
696. 00:34:59 that facade.
697. 00:35:00 So I am who I am.
698. 00:35:02 Uh, I try to stay true to that.
699. 00:35:05 And for the most part, you know, based on the feedback that I've gotten from other
700. 00:35:09 people, like that's one of the things that people appreciate about the stuff
701. 00:35:13 that I do create is like you can see who I am and what I believe about things
702. 00:35:18 through it.
703. 00:35:18 I'm not going to tread the line and try to be quote unquote politically correct.
704. 00:35:24 Like I've thought through my opinions on things and I'm willing to share them,
705. 00:35:28 not in a derogatory means like this is the only way to do it.
706. 00:35:32 But this is based off of my experience and that's something we'll get to a little
707. 00:35:36 bit later.
708. 00:35:36 That's addressed in this book too.
709. 00:35:38 But I just think that there's really a lot of value here from loving your
710. 00:35:43 audience and giving the very best that you have to them.
711. 00:35:46 I think that that comes across and people can tell that and people can tell
712. 00:35:50 likewise when you're not doing that.
713. 00:35:52 Uh, and I just think that like a lot of the stuff that people want to do,
714. 00:35:57 a lot of the things that maybe they're currently doing could be a lot more
715. 00:36:01 successful if they would embrace this principle and just basically go all in
716. 00:36:06 with it.
717. 00:36:07 Don't hold anything back.
718. 00:36:08 Don't try to hide anything, be transparent.
719. 00:36:11 Like this is who I am.
720. 00:36:12 These are my motives.
721. 00:36:13 Like you don't have to guess.
722. 00:36:15 That's one of my pet peeves, I guess is like people where you have to try to
723. 00:36:18 tip toe around what they're saying and figure out what they're really trying to
724. 00:36:22 get from you.
725. 00:36:22 Like that just drives me nuts.
726. 00:36:24 And so I don't want to be that way.
727. 00:36:26 I want whoever listens to a podcast that I create, whoever reads an article that I
728. 00:36:30 wrote, I want them to be able to see the real me in that.
729. 00:36:34 And I want them to be like walking away from that with a positive impression.
730. 00:36:39 Like that was really good.
731. 00:36:40 You know, whether they completely agree with the message or not, I want them to at
732. 00:36:45 least appreciate the effort and the excellence, hopefully that went into it.
733. 00:36:49 Yeah.
734. 00:36:50 I think this comes back to like the concept of saying, I love my audience
735. 00:36:53 before going out on stage.
736. 00:36:55 Uh, that also applies to one of the other principles in this part, which was
737. 00:37:00 smile and I really resonated with this because I know like I do a lot of phone
738. 00:37:05 calls, I do a lot of video calls and I, I'm always, you know, even with email from
739. 00:37:12 time to time, I have found that, you know, if you smile before you engage, it completely
740. 00:37:19 changes the way you come at it.
741. 00:37:21 It doesn't have to necessarily be an in person meeting where smiling is helpful.
742. 00:37:25 I can get my intent across over a phone call a lot easier if I take 10 seconds
743. 00:37:31 and smile before I hit the green button like that.
744. 00:37:34 That, that seems to help significantly.
745. 00:37:37 It just kind of changes your mindset.
746. 00:37:38 It's kind of odd how that simple act can make such a big difference.
747. 00:37:42 And I think this magician figured some of that out as well, because, I mean, try it.
748. 00:37:47 Can you say, I love my audience with a frown on your face?
749. 00:37:49 Like you're just not going to pull that off.
750. 00:37:52 So he's, and I guess this goes into your second point here.
751. 00:37:55 Mike is happiness is a choice.
752. 00:37:56 That's essentially what you're doing is you're choosing before you engage that
753. 00:38:03 you're going to be happy about that situation and it can lead to better
754. 00:38:07 scenarios in the midst of that situation.
755. 00:38:10 If you do that.
756. 00:38:11 Yeah.
757. 00:38:11 On page 74, he says happiness doesn't depend on outward conditions.
758. 00:38:14 It depends on inner conditions.
759. 00:38:16 So when you think about that, it's really freeing, but it also comes back to the whole
760. 00:38:20 concept of like personal responsibility or self-determination.
761. 00:38:23 You can let outside circumstances determine how you feel about things.
762. 00:38:27 But if you do that, you will have a miserable existence.
763. 00:38:30 It's much better to set your own course from the inside out and say, this is where
764. 00:38:36 I'm going and this is what I'm going to feel about this.
765. 00:38:38 And that maybe sounds ridiculous if you'd never done that before, but it really does
766. 00:38:42 work.
767. 00:38:42 He says, it isn't what you have or who you are or where you are or what you are doing
768. 00:38:46 that makes you happy or unhappy.
769. 00:38:48 It is what you think about it.
770. 00:38:49 And Abraham Lincoln says, most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds
771. 00:38:52 to be.
772. 00:38:53 And so I think that totally applies to the, you know, you're talking about the
773. 00:38:58 conversations you have with potential clients.
774. 00:39:01 Like you may have had something happen right before you got on that call that
775. 00:39:05 just was really heavy and it's major depressed and it's not great news, but that's
776. 00:39:10 not going to help the call.
777. 00:39:12 Like that's not going to fix anything.
778. 00:39:14 You can be worried about that thing.
779. 00:39:16 You can be upset about that thing.
780. 00:39:18 What's the best thing that can happen from that?
781. 00:39:20 And what's the worst thing that can happen from it?
782. 00:39:21 The worst thing that can happen from it is that you get on the call with your
783. 00:39:25 potential client and they're just like, man, this guy, like he's a wet rag.
784. 00:39:29 Like I don't want to be around him.
785. 00:39:30 Why do we want to give him our business?
786. 00:39:32 You know, so potentially you've got a lot to lose.
787. 00:39:35 But if you were to quote unquote, fake it till you make it.
788. 00:39:39 If you decide that you are going to be happy and you're going to be positive and
789. 00:39:43 you're going to smile for 10 seconds before you get on camera, what that's going
790. 00:39:47 to allow you to do is master your emotions.
791. 00:39:50 So you're not going to have to be led by every single thing that happens to you.
792. 00:39:52 You maybe are going to get that client, get that person as a client.
793. 00:39:57 And then when you're done, you can go back to worrying about that thing that you
794. 00:39:59 have no control over any ways.
795. 00:40:01 Like it really doesn't do any benefit.
796. 00:40:04 It doesn't add anything to you to worry about that.
797. 00:40:07 But there's a whole lot of good things that can happen from taking control of
798. 00:40:11 the situation and charting your own course.
799. 00:40:14 Yeah, I'm going to go on to your last point in this part, which you have the
800. 00:40:19 quote, to be interesting, be interested.
801. 00:40:21 And this is a this.
802. 00:40:24 Yeah, I like this.
803. 00:40:26 I really want to apply this more.
804. 00:40:29 But the concept is that if I if I want people to see me as an interesting person
805. 00:40:34 and I would challenge the idea that there's someone out there who doesn't want to be
806. 00:40:40 interesting, I would imagine we all do to some extent.
807. 00:40:43 And in order to be interesting, you have to show an interest in other people
808. 00:40:49 through asking questions about the things that they do, understanding the things
809. 00:40:53 or trying to understand the things that they are the most passionate about.
810. 00:40:57 And a prime example of this, and this goes back to my corporate days as part of
811. 00:41:04 one of my tasks working corporate, I had the great honor of flying from place
812. 00:41:09 to place throughout the United States to train farmers on a specific set of
813. 00:41:13 software. And this in one particular scenario, there was a grower that we were
814. 00:41:19 having a conversation with who really was given us a hard time about the
815. 00:41:25 specific software when we were struggling to break through with him.
816. 00:41:28 And my supervisor at the time, or I guess he wasn't my supervisor, but he was a
817. 00:41:33 co-worker, he he started asking questions about the military in some form.
818. 00:41:39 Because this guy had emblems from a handful of the US military branches on
819. 00:41:45 his truck and turned out his daughter was serving in the military and we were
820. 00:41:51 able to strike up a conversation about that.
821. 00:41:53 And he went on for a very long time talking about that.
822. 00:41:56 And when it was all said and done, he ended up being one of the best
823. 00:42:00 proponents of the software we were working on.
824. 00:42:02 And it was purely because we were able to get past the technicals of what was
825. 00:42:09 going on and show an interest in his, uh, his life, his personal life.
826. 00:42:15 And it was kind of difficult to get him to stop talking about it because we had to
827. 00:42:19 go, but, you know, that was, that was a different problem.
828. 00:42:22 But it was very fascinating to me that he became very interested in what we were
829. 00:42:27 doing when we showed an interest in what he was most passionate about.
830. 00:42:31 So I think that's something that I want to, to be intentional about just because
831. 00:42:36 it leads to better conversations and it leads to, I think better relationships overall.
832. 00:42:41 Yeah, there's a couple different principles that you touched on in that, uh,
833. 00:42:45 that phrases now, um, that story that you just told, but the beginning of it,
834. 00:42:49 like you said, is being interested in what the other person is interested in.
835. 00:42:53 And before I read this book, started getting this, uh, this revelation.
836. 00:42:59 And what I've noticed from it is that there's a lot of really interesting
837. 00:43:04 people around you that they have a lot of really cool stories and a lot of
838. 00:43:09 really cool experiences that you won't ever know until you ask the person about.
839. 00:43:16 Like people want to talk about this stuff, but it's just so ingrained that no one asks.
840. 00:43:22 So they just assume that like nobody really cares.
841. 00:43:25 And I just think that this is a really cool synopsis.
842. 00:43:29 This one, this one phrase to be interesting, be interested.
843. 00:43:32 That kind of encapsulates this whole section, the story that you shared, like
844. 00:43:36 I've got multiple stories like that that I could share it to where it's just like
845. 00:43:40 you, you notice one little thing, you know, and really it's just paying attention
846. 00:43:45 to those details, not being wrapped up in your own little world, asking somebody
847. 00:43:49 about it.
848. 00:43:49 And then all of a sudden you're talking to them about this thing for the next
849. 00:43:52 couple of hours.
850. 00:43:53 Like, man, there's, there's so much experience and wisdom in the people around
851. 00:44:00 us that is just like right there and they're willing to share it.
852. 00:44:05 They're willing to talk about it, but we don't ask.
853. 00:44:08 Just specifically going back to one of my gap books as an example, the 30 lessons
854. 00:44:13 for living where the guy went into the nursing homes and asked the people who
855. 00:44:18 were really positive in those nursing homes who had lived a long life and you
856. 00:44:21 could tell that like they were happy with how they had lived.
857. 00:44:23 Like what was the secret to your success?
858. 00:44:25 Just using those older people who specifically for that book, it was the
859. 00:44:29 golden generation, the people who had lived through World War I, World War II,
860. 00:44:33 like the last time that at least in America, like we really had to go through
861. 00:44:38 some stuff, you know, and learning from their experience and how willing they
862. 00:44:42 were to share that and how sad it is that like no one ever goes and asks.
863. 00:44:47 That's the thing that I really realized from, from this and from reading this
864. 00:44:53 book in particular, it was like a great reminder of that like don't take that
865. 00:44:57 stuff for granted. I mean, there's a lot of people who saw a lot of things that
866. 00:45:01 can really benefit us if we really try to understand it.
867. 00:45:03 They're not always going to be there.
868. 00:45:05 Those stories, you know, we're not always going to have firsthand access to those.
869. 00:45:11 And so I want to be more intentional about drawing that stuff out of people
870. 00:45:17 because they're willing to talk about it, but they generally aren't willing to
871. 00:45:20 break through the noise, you know, they're not going to wave the flag and jump up and
872. 00:45:24 down and scream to get your attention. Like they're going to wait until somebody is
873. 00:45:28 actually interested because they don't they don't have time to waste.
874. 00:45:31 So I don't know what the right term would be.
875. 00:45:33 I guess the biblical term would be like cast your pearls before swine.
876. 00:45:36 Like you want to make sure that if you're going to spill your guts and about
877. 00:45:40 whatever it is that that you're really emotional about like you want to make sure
878. 00:45:44 that the person that you're doing that to is going to receive it well.
879. 00:45:48 You want to know that they care.
880. 00:45:49 And so that's something that I want to do is just put other people put other people
881. 00:45:54 first and let them talk. And it's honestly a lot of fun.
882. 00:45:58 You hear a lot of cool stories learn a lot of cool stuff that way.
883. 00:46:02 Yeah, just to clarify, I think the phrase that you're after is don't cast your pearls before swine.
884. 00:46:08 Yep. Yeah.
885. 00:46:09 Exactly.
886. 00:46:09 So don't do that. It's not a positive thing.
887. 00:46:12 Basically just don't waste your time.
888. 00:46:14 Right. Right. And that's you know that that particular phrase and the only reason I call that
889. 00:46:18 out is because that is one of my wife's favorite phrases from the bible is you know don't put your
890. 00:46:24 best in front of people who really don't give a rip. That's the thing we talk about quite a bit.
891. 00:46:30 Which actually is a good reminder to me that you know one of the things that I really took from
892. 00:46:35 especially in this section of six ways to make people like you.
893. 00:46:39 Oddly enough, I kind of applied this to my wife which I suppose at some point this is kind of a
894. 00:46:45 natural conversation with this book is you know applying it to your spouse.
895. 00:46:49 You know it's easily the most intimate relationship you're going to have.
896. 00:46:52 And I think it's it's definitely a plus in your relationship to be interested in the things
897. 00:46:58 that your spouse is interested in. And I kind of started applying this one a little bit more.
898. 00:47:03 I haven't been real great about that particular part but my wife is very interested in you know
899. 00:47:09 like French cooking of sorts but also in gardening. And I haven't been real good about listening to
900. 00:47:14 her whenever she is excited about something that she's learned. Some new things she's learned how
901. 00:47:19 to cook or she cooked something super complicated. And I haven't always been the greatest at that.
902. 00:47:24 We eat pretty well around my house and it's all to my wife's credit there. But I'm trying to be
903. 00:47:31 someone who is able to listen to her on a more detailed level and become more interested in the
904. 00:47:38 things that she's very passionate about. Just because I haven't been super interested in it.
905. 00:47:43 It's not to say that we don't have good conversations or anything. It just means that we end up talking
906. 00:47:47 about other things other than the things she's the most passionate about. So I'm trying to make a
907. 00:47:51 little bit of that shift. But I do think it's natural that whenever you go through this book
908. 00:47:55 there are going to be a lot of areas that you can see that's applying to especially a marriage.
909. 00:48:00 And I don't know did you really think about that Mike? Is this an area that you felt like you could
910. 00:48:04 apply some of this stuff? Or am I just the only one here? No I I did. I agree that the family and
911. 00:48:10 marriage context at least for me is the easy place to apply this stuff. This one in particular
912. 00:48:17 the to be interesting be interested. This one I want to apply this on a much broader scale because
913. 00:48:23 I feel like for a long time I have discounted a lot of the wisdom and the lessons that I could
914. 00:48:30 have been learning from the people around me just because my situation is quote unquote different.
915. 00:48:37 But what I've come to realize is that the guy who's just making ends meet still has
916. 00:48:44 stuff that I can I can learn from. You know maybe he and his family came over on the boat from Cuba
917. 00:48:50 and they've had to really scrap and like they've really had to persevere through some things in
918. 00:48:53 order to make this work. They've had to relocate move their entire family but they're still consistent
919. 00:48:59 they're still steady they're still positive like the tendency would be to look at it from a
920. 00:49:04 financial perspective like well I'm more successful than that person so what are they going to teach
921. 00:49:10 me but really like everybody's got something that they can teach you if you pay attention to it and
922. 00:49:14 if you get them talking about their story it's easy to tease that stuff out so that's that's how I
923. 00:49:18 want to apply this is like every single person that I come in contact with every single person who
924. 00:49:22 is willing to give me the time of day like I want to I want to be listening not just trying to
925. 00:49:28 spew stuff all the time. So part three again a really good phrase that can be twisted how to
926. 00:49:35 win people to your way of thinking yeah so explain that one Mike yeah this is the longest part of
927. 00:49:44 the book I believe there's 12 chapters here this is starting to transition into the then part four
928. 00:49:50 is like the leadership part but this is like the introductory section to that so this is kind of
929. 00:49:56 like management 101 I guess that's kind of how I viewed this section and again like not just
930. 00:50:03 managing people though that's the arena that this is going to to play out in the number one thing I
931. 00:50:08 got out of this in the first chapter in here is that you can't win an argument so anytime you have
932. 00:50:13 an argument with somebody voices get raised you're making your points vehemently and he says that
933. 00:50:19 if you convince somebody against their will you haven't really changed their mind so I can think
934. 00:50:26 of many instances where this is played out with that I've been involved in and also that I have
935. 00:50:31 not been involved in where the loudest person quote unquote wins but nine times out of 10 what happens
936. 00:50:38 is that he says each contestant is more firmly convinced than ever that they are absolutely right
937. 00:50:44 so you may quote unquote lose the argument for the sake of an example let's say you and I are
938. 00:50:49 having an argument okay and let's pretend Joe that you're louder than I am so you quote unquote
939. 00:50:54 win okay nine times out of 10 my opinion isn't changed by the fact that you won but you maybe
940. 00:51:00 think it is you think that oh I put Mike in his place he totally gets my perspective now no
941. 00:51:05 and nine times out of 10 what happens is the other person just more firmly believes that they
942. 00:51:10 were right they just got sick of arguing and decided to let it end yeah he uses a phrase I
943. 00:51:14 really like the man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still so the only way to win
944. 00:51:21 an argument is to completely avoid it I definitely want to embrace this this is one of my action items
945. 00:51:27 I'm not an arguer not really but not in that way not like a get loud get proud sort of scenario
946. 00:51:36 but where I want to apply this is you know with with my client calls and stuff it's not uncommon
947. 00:51:43 for there to be multiple people on the other side and one of those is like the in-house IT expert
948. 00:51:49 of sorts and they always have an opinion about how their website should be built from a technical
949. 00:51:56 stance and I am the expert they brought in on that so it's very easy to start butting heads
950. 00:52:04 with this person and it doesn't really work for me to convince everyone that they are wrong
951. 00:52:11 in zero ways is that a good thing and it's also zero ways good if I end up being the loser of that
952. 00:52:19 so I need to not do those scenarios just avoid those it's the world where I do business so I know
953. 00:52:27 it very well as a result because I work in it all day long and I usually have an edge over them so
954. 00:52:35 there's a lot of this book that I need to apply to that exact scenario but this is what I'm naming
955. 00:52:41 as the crux of it is avoid arguments Joe just stop yeah and it doesn't have to be like a yelling
956. 00:52:49 at each other sort of argument I recognize from reading this that I totally do this all the time
957. 00:52:56 and I do it logically and rationally yeah I'll construct my arguments like a like a debate you
958. 00:53:02 know and think that well logic is going to prevail here you know look at these are these are the
959. 00:53:07 facts this is obviously what they're saying and it's not obviously what they're saying it's obvious
960. 00:53:12 to me it's not obvious to the other person and I can construct this argument and think that all
961. 00:53:18 the evidence is pointing to me but there's there's more than one side that every single one of these
962. 00:53:24 stories you can make facts say whatever you want right honestly I think we talked about that in a
963. 00:53:28 previous episode how you used to like pull data points and create these reports that basically
964. 00:53:33 would say whatever you would want them to say right right right well I didn't do that but I
965. 00:53:38 pulled the data that allowed people to do that right right yeah no I wasn't implying I guess that
966. 00:53:43 you did it but oh I drove you had the you had the ability to do it because it's so easy to manipulate
967. 00:53:49 right the facts you have to you know just facts don't equal truth I guess is is the the takeaway
968. 00:53:54 there right but also the takeaway in terms of arguments or discussions whatever is that like
969. 00:53:59 you can never think that you've rationally won and I guess reading this section you know this is
970. 00:54:05 the first chapter in this section it's just like don't even go there and then the rest of the
971. 00:54:10 chapters in this section the other 11 chapters outline a better way to get what you want than
972. 00:54:16 trying to convince the other person that they're wrong and you're right yeah just a you know
973. 00:54:20 there's a reason that I have the habit of sending PDFs when it's data it's harder for people to
974. 00:54:26 edit what I send yeah that was beat into me in corporate so yeah they always got onto me
975. 00:54:33 Joe I can't make edits to this well you're not supposed to be able to hit that anyway
976. 00:54:41 appeal to nobler motives hit me on this quote so there's a ton in this this section and we're not
977. 00:54:47 going to try and outline the whole way that you win people to your way of thinking but this is
978. 00:54:52 one part of it that really jumped out to me and when he read this section he basically talked about
979. 00:54:59 how if you project that this person is like a man or woman of their word if they're going to do
980. 00:55:06 what they said they're going to do oftentimes they will live up to that and I again you can view that
981. 00:55:13 in a manipulative sense is like well I'm going to use this to get what I want but I think that a
982. 00:55:17 lot of times this can be used to create win-win situations and really what this is is thinking
983. 00:55:22 the best of the other person so believing that they're not out to get you that they're not trying
984. 00:55:28 to take advantage of you that they're not actively rebelling against what you want them to do if
985. 00:55:32 you're a manager and they're an employee for example and he has some great stories in here
986. 00:55:35 one that I really liked and it wasn't specifically for this point but there's so much that you can
987. 00:55:40 learn from these stories there was one where I think it was a Charles Schwab example where he
988. 00:55:45 was talking about the the guys that were smoking on their break right underneath the sign that says
989. 00:55:51 no smoking and so to make the point he walks over gives each of them a cigar and then says something
990. 00:55:58 like great job guys by the way I trust that you'll wait till you get outside in order to smoke this
991. 00:56:05 you know and then they got the they got the point and they stopped what they were doing because it
992. 00:56:08 was against company rules but a lot of those stories that just impressed me is like wow like
993. 00:56:14 that's not necessarily manipulative it's much less manipulative honestly than how you would
994. 00:56:20 typically see that scenario played out where the boss is going to come in and be like what's wrong
995. 00:56:24 with you guys can't you can't you read you know like that's a lot more condescending than thinking
996. 00:56:29 the best of the of the person and creating a place for them to save face and for this to be a win-win
997. 00:56:35 like you get the activity that you want and you're not coming down on them disciplining them whatever
998. 00:56:41 like there's no negative outcome to this situation like there's a lot of scenarios where that can
999. 00:56:47 happen where there can be a win-win it doesn't have to be I have to win you have to lose in order for
1000. 00:56:53 me to get what I want that's really the thing that this book kind of challenged me to do there
1001. 00:56:57 was another story a fable actually which kind of illustrates this from this section about the the
1002. 00:57:03 sun and the wind do you remember this one yes I do remember this one it's a good one I like this
1003. 00:57:09 yeah and this is under chapter four in this section a drop of honey but again like it kind of
1004. 00:57:14 kind of all related the fable goes that the sun and the wind were arguing over who was stronger
1005. 00:57:19 the wind said he proved that he was stronger by blowing a man's coat off hard or he blew the
1006. 00:57:22 tighter the man clutched his coat when the wind gave up the sun came out smiled at the old man
1007. 00:57:26 wiped off his brow pulled off his coat and the the principle is gentleness and friendliness are
1008. 00:57:31 always stronger than fury and force if you appeal to noble motives I feel like the gentleness and
1009. 00:57:36 the friendliness are going to be natural byproducts of that that particular story is one that struck
1010. 00:57:42 me with my girls in the way that I tried to correct them because so many times like
1011. 00:57:50 multiple times even today I'll admit it where they are doing things they are they know they're
1012. 00:57:57 not supposed to do that and my instinct is to get upset you know make make myself look big be loud
1013. 00:58:06 like that's my tendency in that scenario that's not good for them I mean they have a hard time
1014. 00:58:11 responding to that in that case you know to follow the the fable like I'm being the wind in that
1015. 00:58:16 scenario and it makes it very difficult for them to to respond positively and they're also not
1016. 00:58:23 necessarily going to get the right motivator behind that as well so I didn't even know how to
1017. 00:58:28 put this as an action item other than just be aware of this because I don't really think it works to
1018. 00:58:34 say that change the way I handle this particular situation because it's not a specific situation
1019. 00:58:39 it's again a mindset but it's not even that it's the way that you respond so I didn't even know how
1020. 00:58:45 to write it down but something around that concept of instead of trying to you know force my children
1021. 00:58:53 to do things the correct way or you know guide them in that way through you know loud means as
1022. 00:59:00 opposed to that trying to get down on their level and and calmly work through it with them and
1023. 00:59:06 help them understand it so that they can make a better choice in the future that's not simple
1024. 00:59:11 to do with a three-year-old just gonna say that yeah but the kids example like that's the perfect
1025. 00:59:18 place to see this played out because this is chapter 10 and appeal everybody likes believe
1026. 00:59:22 the other person to be honest sincere truthful etc like if you want to incentivize your young
1027. 00:59:28 kids to model correct behavior then project that they are responsible enough or big enough quote
1028. 00:59:37 unquote to handle this thing you know if you frame it as like now this is for big kids so like you
1029. 00:59:45 have to act this way in order to do this thing like there's a privilege associated with it the
1030. 00:59:50 freedom that comes from that like that's a great way to see that played out but that can be applied
1031. 00:59:56 to anybody the playing field can be level in order for this to to happen still like you don't have
1032. 01:00:01 to have one person in a position of power and they're trying to coax you the person long like
1033. 01:00:05 come on come on although like with kids that's that's kind of how that would that would play out
1034. 01:00:10 but i just really like this whole idea of thinking the best about people and then just like confessing
1035. 01:00:17 it over them and then watching them act it out specifically in like a church context this is a
1036. 01:00:23 really powerful idea because like in my church anyways i'll just speak to my own my own example
1037. 01:00:31 i've got a group of guys that are in my discipleship group and i'm the quote unquote leader although
1038. 01:00:37 we're all on this journey together and we've been talking a lot about vision and purpose and
1039. 01:00:45 identifying like what is it that you're that you're supposed to do and it's cool to see like
1040. 01:00:53 the light bulb come on and the emotion that springs up behind people's eyes and like the when they
1041. 01:00:58 start to accept and believe that like yeah i can accomplish that dream or that vision that i have
1042. 01:01:04 and when you get a couple people around you who are like hey yeah man you can do that like i've seen
1043. 01:01:07 you do this and you're really good at this and i think you're really talented in this particular
1044. 01:01:12 area like you could use this in this particular way like you get a couple people around you who are
1045. 01:01:17 pointing out the your talents and your abilities instead of people who are constantly reminding you
1046. 01:01:23 of all the things you can't do and all the reasons why it's not going to work and then all of a
1047. 01:01:27 sudden like you get energized and you're like yeah let's do this and i think that's like a positive
1048. 01:01:32 application of this this principle and i think it's it's really really powerful i really want to
1049. 01:01:39 figure out how to apply this in my own life with every single person that i come in contact with
1050. 01:01:44 i mean we talked about on this podcast my life theme which is kind of a conglomeration of
1051. 01:01:50 of action items but i've got it written down right in front of me it helped people answer the
1052. 01:01:55 question why am i here by inspiring encouraging and teaching them how to discover their destiny
1053. 01:01:58 connected they're calling and live a life they're created for at some point in order to do that i
1054. 01:02:03 have to embrace this principle and i have to appeal to a nobler motive and believe that people do want
1055. 01:02:12 to improve their situation they do want to connect to the thing that is custom built for them you
1056. 01:02:18 know the why are they here and i have to then inspire them to do that if i can't appeal to the
1057. 01:02:25 nobler motives like that gets a lot harder yeah and i i think it's hard to in some scenarios i feel
1058. 01:02:33 like it's hard to figure out how to do that it's a scenario where you're trying to help someone
1059. 01:02:39 understand a better motive behind what they're doing but you're not really sure why they're
1060. 01:02:44 doing the thing to begin with so i i feel like it's sometimes hard to to help them step outside of
1061. 01:02:50 that i want to go on to the last part of this section because i know you've got it down here and
1062. 01:02:56 i thought it was kind of interesting as well in the last principle in this section of when people
1063. 01:03:01 to your way of thinking is throw down a challenge and i loved the story that he started this section
1064. 01:03:07 off with which was charles schwaub he had a mill manager and his teams you know he had an overnight
1065. 01:03:15 crew and a day crew and they just weren't hitting their quota of work and when charles schwaub figured
1066. 01:03:22 this out he went to the mill and he asked the team of workers you know how many heats did you
1067. 01:03:30 accomplish today i don't know what a heat is in this scenario i don't really know what that i was
1068. 01:03:35 i was a bit lost on that it's like how many heats did your shift make today and he said six so he
1069. 01:03:40 took some chalk and in a great big figure on the floor he wrote the number six well then when the
1070. 01:03:46 night shift came in they saw the big number six and we're trying to figure out what it was and the
1071. 01:03:51 the day workers told him well the big boss was here today and he asked us how many heats we made and
1072. 01:03:57 he wrote it on the floor well the next morning of course charles schwaub walks in and on the floor
1073. 01:04:03 there wasn't a six there was a seven you can imagine how this turned out uh the day shift then
1074. 01:04:11 sees the number seven and thinks oh no we have a problem so they went together and they managed to
1075. 01:04:17 get a big ten written on the floor at the end of the day so charles schwaub just by writing a single
1076. 01:04:23 number on the floor managed to invoke a competition and a challenge in a team that was struggling to
1077. 01:04:28 meet their quota and basically two days and managed to get them to the point where they were able to
1078. 01:04:36 start succeeding i kind of love that story i really did i want to clarify one thing uh because the
1079. 01:04:43 i think that the day crew when they came back wasn't thinking oh no this isn't good but they
1080. 01:04:50 were incentivized to beat the night crew right like that's that's the principle here it's not
1081. 01:04:56 again a scarcity mindset where it's like well one of us is going to get axed so we got to make sure
1082. 01:05:01 it's not us it's a friendly competition in essence that it's like a competition to to see who can
1083. 01:05:09 do the best and uh i kind of view bookworm and this podcast like you could apply that personally
1084. 01:05:17 you could look at what i'm doing and what joe's doing and you could say well if those guys are
1085. 01:05:22 gonna do it then i i can do better than that like that's great go for that i'm not against that i
1086. 01:05:28 think that's a really powerful idea here and also the thing to call out here i think that the challenge
1087. 01:05:34 and the appealing to noblur motives as it pertains to you know going back to my my life theme not to
1088. 01:05:39 make this all about me but like i think that uh you can have that competition without having
1089. 01:05:45 another person even so i could challenge somebody potentially you know going back to the last principle
1090. 01:05:51 of appealing to noblur motives and embracing that in the form of a challenge i could create a picture
1091. 01:05:57 of the ideal and say how would your life be different if you were able to achieve this you know once
1092. 01:06:04 you've got that picture then it's like okay now go get that you know that's where the challenge
1093. 01:06:08 comes in is like if child's shop were to walk in and be like okay guys i want you to do 10 heats
1094. 01:06:13 you know everybody's gonna go 10 heats man that's that's not even possible it's almost twice as much
1095. 01:06:17 as we're doing right now it's not like they're in a bad situation but when pain is sufficient
1096. 01:06:24 change will come so maybe you are in a bad situation you just can't take things anymore and you want
1097. 01:06:28 to you want to change your future i think everybody's got that that point whether it's
1098. 01:06:33 induced by pain or just the idea of a better future that inspires the action but once you
1099. 01:06:40 once you create the action the challenge or the scoreboard or like the goal that's really the
1100. 01:06:48 principle here is if you have something that you are trying to achieve or trying to beat that can
1101. 01:06:56 take you a lot further than you you thought you could go i mean as we record this since the last
1102. 01:07:02 episode i ran my half marathon and about a week before i ran it i hurt my it band which is the
1103. 01:07:10 muscle that goes down the outside of your left leg when i was running i got to the top of the hill
1104. 01:07:17 about mile five it's a very hilly course i've never really ran hills before that where i am there
1105. 01:07:24 aren't many hills to run and uh my knee started to give out i didn't think i was going to be able to
1106. 01:07:29 to finish what got me through though was they have these pace teams and at the beginning i was running
1107. 01:07:36 with a pace team which my brother was actually a part of and i was doing fine but then we got to
1108. 01:07:40 the hill and my knee started acting up and i just couldn't keep up with that anymore so i was just
1109. 01:07:46 about ready to give up and then the next pace team because they they pace like every five minutes or
1110. 01:07:51 so runs by me and the guy on the pace team is wearing this bright blue shirt so you can see
1111. 01:07:56 and they've got the the stick with the the time on it so basically like if you want to finish the
1112. 01:08:00 half marathon in this time follow this pace team all right so the guy runs by he says something to me
1113. 01:08:07 encouraging he's like hey come on let's go you know and he doesn't know what's going on with me but
1114. 01:08:12 and i don't even remember exactly what he said but i do remember that like that was like flipping a
1115. 01:08:17 switch in me and all of a sudden i'm like yeah i got this and i just followed the pace team like
1116. 01:08:23 that was the challenge nice and he didn't phrase it that way like hey come on
1117. 01:08:27 suck it up let's go but that's the way i took it was this is the challenge now you know you're not
1118. 01:08:33 feeling great but can you push through this anyways and finish and i did i finished in 150-33
1119. 01:08:40 which is an eight minute 26 second pace which is still faster than my target time of 8.30
1120. 01:08:47 nice so even with everything you know that happened the challenge was thrown down and i could see like
1121. 01:08:53 i responded and it wasn't even consciously it's kind of like you're in the middle of this thing and
1122. 01:08:59 you don't even realize the power of somebody saying the right thing at the right time or just doing
1123. 01:09:06 something to inspire that that action you can get so focused on your your situation you can think
1124. 01:09:11 about like oh man this this really sucks but then when your focus gets changed even a little bit
1125. 01:09:17 onto the the challenge you're capable of some amazing stuff you really don't know what you're
1126. 01:09:21 you know in the case of a half marathon what your body is capable of until you until you really
1127. 01:09:25 push it and the way to push it is not to focus on like okay i got to do this thing even though my
1128. 01:09:31 knee hurts way to focus on is like well there's the there's the pace guy right in front of me like i
1129. 01:09:35 got to keep up with him this can go back to the book flow by our buddy mohaly because that was one
1130. 01:09:43 of the aspects that he he talked about quite a bit and there was having some form of a challenge
1131. 01:09:48 that you are focused on achieving so i think it's really cool that's a cool story mike well done
1132. 01:09:54 congratulations thank you thank you um yeah so i have a male who runs since then which is kind of
1133. 01:09:59 kind of sucks and to be to be fair to be expected i suppose to be fair i probably could but with an
1134. 01:10:05 it band basically short version the only thing that helps it is rest and if you don't rest it it
1135. 01:10:11 can become chronic i definitely don't want that to happen so i'm just trying to right try and take
1136. 01:10:14 it easy for a while it's not like i ran the half marathon and then this happened this happened
1137. 01:10:19 actually before the half marathon it made the half marathon really really hard yeah but the thing
1138. 01:10:24 that got me over was not thinking about oh i'm only a mile four and i got nine more to go the thing
1139. 01:10:30 that got me over was like that keep that guy right in front of you just follow that guy i don't even
1140. 01:10:35 know his name but follow that right hey dude i'm with you so there you go all right part four be a
1141. 01:10:42 leader again awesome subtitle here how to change people without giving a fence or a rousing resentment
1142. 01:10:49 so the only way that this gets interpreted negatively is if you have the view that people
1143. 01:10:57 shouldn't have to change personally i think that change is constant and that's a improper way to
1144. 01:11:05 look at the world so i guess tweet at me if you really really want to hate at me for that statement
1145. 01:11:11 but i really think that change isn't bad the people who listen to bookworm specifically probably
1146. 01:11:17 already have embraced that where i want to change and i want to be in direction of the change and
1147. 01:11:23 make sure that the change is positive and not negative so maybe that's not such a polarizing
1148. 01:11:29 statement but i think that this is a polarizing statement for a lot of people but again coming back
1149. 01:11:36 to sales and leadership like influence you're causing people to change be okay with that now
1150. 01:11:44 there's right and wrong ways to do that and actually looking at my notes now this is where that child
1151. 01:11:48 schwaab story comes in about the the no smoking sign but the way to to be a leader is not just to
1152. 01:11:56 bring the hammer down when people mess up in fact one of these sections i put as a quote-unquote
1153. 01:12:04 action item not really an action item but it was avoid the hammer in the dynamite yeah so jabdra one
1154. 01:12:11 is if you have to find fault this is the way to begin really just there's a correct way to criticize
1155. 01:12:17 people and it's never by making them feel like they really messed up this is something i think i've
1156. 01:12:24 told the story on this podcast before but one of the things that i learned from working with
1157. 01:12:29 asian efficiency i was working on the the publication of the the podcast episodes i was not the the
1158. 01:12:36 host when we launched but i was responsible for all editing and all of the publication and so all
1159. 01:12:41 all of a sudden one day an episode goes out before it's been finalized and it gets sent out to everybody's
1160. 01:12:48 pod catcher and uh it's basically like you can't unhit the the send button when you send an email
1161. 01:12:53 that's basically what happened with this podcast episode and i'm freaking out and i'm like well
1162. 01:12:57 who did who did this like in tans is basically doesn't matter who who cares who did it i'm like
1163. 01:13:03 i care i want to figure out what what happened he's like it doesn't matter it doesn't matter had a
1164. 01:13:07 big meeting with everybody in the companies like we're not talking about
1165. 01:13:10 we're not talking about what happened we're talking about how do we make sure this doesn't
1166. 01:13:14 happen again that's kind of how i feel like this uh this whole section on how to criticize
1167. 01:13:21 it's that approach so it's it's not going to shine the light on the thing that you did wrong
1168. 01:13:26 it's going to incentivize you to make the change so that that thing doesn't happen again and there's
1169. 01:13:32 right ways to do that i i really appreciated this section especially i mean it seems very
1170. 01:13:36 tactical and practical at the same time so i i think it's very interesting to see some of the
1171. 01:13:42 stories that he tells in this particular section and again we're not going to go through all of these
1172. 01:13:49 but i i think at this point it's pretty obvious that we were going to recommend that you read this
1173. 01:13:54 so in this particular case like yes there are ways to help to criticize people but he has a lot
1174. 01:14:00 of examples here on ways to do that that aren't they're not going to hurt someone in the process
1175. 01:14:05 i mean it might not be pleasant but it doesn't come across as a a break in the relationship and
1176. 01:14:11 that you know that's probably a good point to call out here is that a lot of this book can be seen as
1177. 01:14:16 ways to build relationships and not sever them when something negative happens yep and it really
1178. 01:14:25 does seem to be i kind of wish it was something more along the lines of how to build relationships
1179. 01:14:30 as opposed to how to win friends and influence people because it's kind of more about you know
1180. 01:14:35 saving those relationships and the interactions you have with people as opposed to doing things
1181. 01:14:40 harshly and as a kind of a run around crazy person so i i think this is a very good section
1182. 01:14:49 especially for folks who are in a position where they are leading one or more other people in some
1183. 01:14:56 way and if you're a parent you're a leader period like that is the way it goes you can't get around
1184. 01:15:02 that good luck so i i don't know the first point you've got here is how to criticize my there are a
1185. 01:15:07 lot of ways i think you could do that but yep the one that i always come back to with stuff like
1186. 01:15:12 that is the the power of a positive no where you have the yes no yes scenario and although he never
1187. 01:15:18 calls it that he does mention that process a handful of times of start with praise before you get to
1188. 01:15:25 the criticism to me that's very similar to that because he also says in a couple areas to just
1189. 01:15:30 end on something positive as well so i think he calls out that scenario without saying yes no yes
1190. 01:15:36 but that that was one of the the aspects that definitely resonated with me yeah the the entire
1191. 01:15:42 section really is step by step how to to do this but there's a couple things specifically when it
1192. 01:15:49 comes to criticizing that i want to tease out here so chapter two is titled how to criticize and not
1193. 01:15:58 be hated for it and this is where one of my action items comes from where you're changing the word
1194. 01:16:05 but to and so using it as an example i could say something like i really appreciate all the work
1195. 01:16:13 that you put into bookworm joe but i noticed that the last episode had this mistake like at that point
1196. 01:16:19 you're not feeling positive even though i started it on a positive and so the principle here is to
1197. 01:16:24 call attention to people's mistakes indirectly so what that looks like is i really appreciate all
1198. 01:16:29 the the work that you put into bookworm joe and if we did this we could make sure that something
1199. 01:16:36 like x doesn't happen again or it doesn't happen in the future that's a totally different feeling
1200. 01:16:42 from that conversation just hinging on that one word which is crazy to think about and then there's
1201. 01:16:47 other stuff here like talking about your own mistakes before you would criticize the other person
1202. 01:16:52 sometimes you do have to address something that somebody did wrong and so in that instance maybe
1203. 01:16:56 you want to talk about you know when i first started doing this i did this thing all the time
1204. 01:17:00 and i noticed that you did it too so no big deal let's just figure out that like next time you're
1205. 01:17:05 going to do this thing do it this way so much good stuff here and again this is not manipulative
1206. 01:17:10 because what it ties into is chapter six how to spur people on to success you're not spurring
1207. 01:17:17 people on to success just so that you increase the value of your company or you make more money
1208. 01:17:23 i mean i guess maybe you could do it that way but that's getting back to it we've very very
1209. 01:17:27 beginning of this this book we talked about the insincere flattery versus the sincere appreciation
1210. 01:17:33 i view this how to spur people on to success as i will feel fulfilled if you are able to achieve
1211. 01:17:40 success whether or not i get anything of monetary value from it and i think that that's this whole
1212. 01:17:46 section on on leadership like that's really where there's a lot of gold here there's a lot of nuggets
1213. 01:17:53 in this section about incentivizing people to to take us a certain action but ultimately when
1214. 01:18:01 it comes to leadership and getting people to quote unquote follow you uh my pastor always says like
1215. 01:18:07 if you're a leader and you turn around and no one's following you you're just out for a walk
1216. 01:18:13 so like people have to believe that you can get them where they want to go and again there's like
1217. 01:18:18 this is a huge topic but leadership really is about serving the people that you're leading
1218. 01:18:24 it's not about manipulating them and trying to get the most from them people are going to see
1219. 01:18:28 through that real quick and you're not going to be a leader for very long if you take that
1220. 01:18:32 insincere approach yeah i think at the same time that you're not just trying to manipulate people
1221. 01:18:38 like i think if this is a business owner like i have some contractors that are doing some stuff
1222. 01:18:42 for me right now and it's it's obvious that i have goals and plans for the company that i want to
1223. 01:18:51 achieve and in order for me to achieve those i have to have those contractors working with me
1224. 01:18:57 to accomplish some of the goals that i have set for the company and in order for that to happen i
1225. 01:19:03 need to influence them to go about their work in a very specific way and that works but that's not
1226. 01:19:11 manipulation that's guiding them towards the goal or the task at hand and accomplishing the project
1227. 01:19:19 and i think it's a very delicate line to walk because i'm not trying to manipulate them into
1228. 01:19:25 bringing me more money like that that's not what i'm trying to do i'm simply trying to meet the goal
1229. 01:19:32 of the client and it's my job to take whatever the client has and help to accomplish that through
1230. 01:19:39 helping my contractors and influencing them in such a way to actually write the code or accomplish
1231. 01:19:45 the task that needs done so i i think there is a little bit of a balance that you have to to work
1232. 01:19:50 through on making sure you're not like your motives are correct and this maybe gets into your last
1233. 01:19:56 section or the last point you've got here if think win win like i'm trying to accomplish something
1234. 01:20:01 with the company and how do i help the people doing things for me like how do i help them win in the
1235. 01:20:08 process of helping me win you know like how do i help us both win in this scenario and that's not
1236. 01:20:14 always an easy answer it's not always a simple thing to accomplish but it's definitely the process
1237. 01:20:20 that i need to be working through and trying to think through it ultimately is going to come down
1238. 01:20:26 to painting a vision of a successful completion for this this project or journey whatever like you
1239. 01:20:35 want to cast a vision of where you're going and get other people to come along with you using your
1240. 01:20:41 project as an example i mean you're painting a picture of a win win situation where if we're able
1241. 01:20:47 to build this thing i can't do it on my own i need you guys to help me then if we're able to
1242. 01:20:52 accomplish this these things are going to happen and that's a good thing that's laying down the
1243. 01:20:58 challenge that's incentivizing people because they're going to get rewarded when they accomplish the
1244. 01:21:03 goal whatever that win win situation like that's really in my opinion the only way to make this work
1245. 01:21:09 you can manipulate people in the short term you can make them do stuff maybe that they don't want
1246. 01:21:14 to do but you're not going to have any sort of long-term success even if you're constantly filling in
1247. 01:21:20 with new people who know nothing about you i mean first of all your reputation is going to catch up
1248. 01:21:25 with you at some point but second of all like that's just way too much work i would much rather
1249. 01:21:31 find a team that i'm going to work with long-term and everybody's on board with this vision like
1250. 01:21:36 we're all going in the the same direction and then using these principles like i'm not manipulating
1251. 01:21:43 them to get what i want i'm trying to incentivize them and equip them in essence so that the team
1252. 01:21:50 can be successful and on page 249 he talks about how this is not a bag of tricks he even says quote
1253. 01:21:56 let me repeat the principles taught in this book will work only when they come from the heart i am
1254. 01:22:02 not advocating a bag of tricks i am talking about a new way of life i think that that win win mindset
1255. 01:22:09 for a lot of people that is a new way of life it's pretty radical to think about things in that way
1256. 01:22:13 there's not a finite number of successes available in the world where i have to
1257. 01:22:20 hoard them for myself and if you're successful that means there's that there's less for me i really
1258. 01:22:25 do believe that the abundance mindset is the key to making this stuff all work and that you should
1259. 01:22:30 be excited about the people that are working with you being successful because it's not taking away
1260. 01:22:35 from you and the fact that they're successful really that has no negative implications at all so maybe
1261. 01:22:42 like the people that you're working with joe they become successful they get a few jobs under
1262. 01:22:47 their belt at that point maybe you're a little bit worried because you're like well maybe this
1263. 01:22:51 guy who's doing really good or this this girl who's doing a really great job over here like maybe
1264. 01:22:56 they're gonna go out on their own if you really embrace a win-win mindset you're not even worried
1265. 01:23:00 about that because you know that like this system this process works and that should be my goal is
1266. 01:23:08 i should be developing people that i come in contact with to the point where it doesn't matter they
1267. 01:23:12 don't need me anymore like they're successful enough on their own that they could go and they
1268. 01:23:16 could make a career and they could achieve their their goals like that's i guess selfishly personally
1269. 01:23:23 that's the kind of impact that i want to have and so this is a challenge to me to constantly be
1270. 01:23:28 thinking that way constantly be thinking about how can i help other people succeed and then i kind
1271. 01:23:33 of believe that if you are focused on the other person and helping them succeed there's a residual
1272. 01:23:39 effect that's going to happen there where you're gonna you're gonna succeed just because you've
1273. 01:23:42 helped all these other people succeed like you don't even have to focus on your own success that's just
1274. 01:23:46 a natural byproduct like that that comes with the territory yeah i think it's interesting that you
1275. 01:23:51 bring up the whole scarcity mindset thing because like there are a couple guys doing some work for me
1276. 01:23:57 that i have encouraged and helped them with picking a business outside of doing work with me in the
1277. 01:24:05 same space so like okay here you go like if you want to go do this great go for it here's how you do
1278. 01:24:10 that and the the trick here is that i know that the the way that i go about doing things and what i
1279. 01:24:18 have to offer as a as a business those are different types of clients that need to work in different
1280. 01:24:25 scenarios like from a minute level uh or a very detailed level i know that and i think they know
1281. 01:24:31 that as well but they get to pick up a little experience and in some ways they understand what
1282. 01:24:36 it is that i do at a at a different level so i think it does work to to help them through that
1283. 01:24:42 process do you want to go over this last bit this kind of last piece on Dale Carnegie's life the
1284. 01:24:47 shortcut to distinction yeah did your version have this by the way it did okay i really enjoyed it too
1285. 01:24:52 so this is really the story of how this book came to be and how Dale Carnegie came to be
1286. 01:24:57 and the things that kind of jumped out to me from this section we mentioned the fact that he
1287. 01:25:01 criticized over 150 000 speeches already which is kind of crazy to think about um but a couple
1288. 01:25:08 other things that stood out here there was a study that was done to find out what people
1289. 01:25:13 wanted to study so a little bit meta there but they're trying to figure out what people wanted
1290. 01:25:18 to learn about and they found number one was health and number two was skill in relationships
1291. 01:25:23 now there was no curriculum for skill in relationships so Dale Carnegie built one it wasn't taught in
1292. 01:25:31 school and it's still not taught in school honestly the whole idea of soft skills like that's a big
1293. 01:25:37 topic uh it's something that i'm pretty passionate about and it really is frustrating to me that that's
1294. 01:25:43 and that's not taught and part of it is the system itself like i don't know you've got one teacher
1295. 01:25:49 30 kids you know we talked about that we don't need to belabor those points again right but one
1296. 01:25:55 of the reasons that we homeschool i'll just leave it at that the shortcut to distinction comes from
1297. 01:25:59 page 277 where he says the ability to speak is a shortcut to distinction it puts a person in the
1298. 01:26:04 limelight raises one head and shoulders above the crowd and the person who can speak acceptably
1299. 01:26:09 is usually given credit for an ability out of all proportion to what he or she really possesses
1300. 01:26:14 this is interesting to me because this is where you find out that he was doing these newspaper ads
1301. 01:26:18 and he was speaking at these hotels and the getting people to sign up for his program i kind of thought
1302. 01:26:24 and i don't don't know the history of all of this but i kind of thought of this is like the early
1303. 01:26:30 version of toastmasters so i am involved in toastmasters and there's really two tracks to toastmasters
1304. 01:26:37 which is focused on public speaking and leadership and i saw those themes throughout this book and i
1305. 01:26:45 think that uh this shortcut to distinction is interesting because public speaking is one of the
1306. 01:26:52 biggest fears that people have i mean there's a often quoted statistic that people are the number
1307. 01:26:57 one fear is speaking in public number two is death and i think that there's a lot of opportunities
1308. 01:27:05 you don't have to go join the dale carnegie school uh i really have learned a lot and grown a lot from
1309. 01:27:11 my experience with toastmasters and i think that it's interesting to see that even in 1937 you know
1310. 01:27:18 my my in sphere of influence or sphere of experience what i'm familiar with in the toastmasters realm
1311. 01:27:24 like i see a lot of the people that are involved there they tell the same story one of the things
1312. 01:27:28 that happens in toastmasters meeting is you all the guests explain like well why did you come to
1313. 01:27:32 the meeting what did you think of it there's a couple different responses number one is my
1314. 01:27:36 boss said it would be a good idea those people generally don't come back then there are the people
1315. 01:27:41 who are like yeah i'm looking to advance in my career and this is the natural next step you know
1316. 01:27:46 it's going to be a little bit different but that's basically what they're saying is like i need to
1317. 01:27:49 get better in front of people yeah i think that this is a tipping point for a lot of people it was
1318. 01:27:55 for me overcoming the fear of putting yourself out there the vehicle that you use to develop that
1319. 01:28:01 skill can be different you know i'll advocate for toastmasters because it's pretty inexpensive and
1320. 01:28:06 it's a pretty pretty great curriculum if you follow the the program no one's going to force you to do
1321. 01:28:10 it but if you were to follow through all of the stuff it's essentially like a master's in
1322. 01:28:15 communication for fifty bucks every six months at least that's what what mine is you know it's
1323. 01:28:20 it's really inexpensive for what you get but you got to apply yourself and again like that's the key
1324. 01:28:24 to this book is you have to apply this stuff he's he's even got a page i think in the end of the book
1325. 01:28:30 where you can write down the different wins that you've had so you you're chronicling the the
1326. 01:28:35 situations where you've applied this stuff and you've seen it work but i want to put the the plug out
1327. 01:28:40 there for anybody listening to this who thinks like well public speaking isn't for me or i don't
1328. 01:28:47 know what the next step is like that may be the next step for you and uh it's pretty evident from
1329. 01:28:52 reading this book like this is just more confirmation from my small perspective on this this topic
1330. 01:28:58 is like this is a force multiplier for influence and leadership and regardless of your job situation
1331. 01:29:06 you don't have to be an independent worker you don't have to be a knowledge worker you don't have
1332. 01:29:10 to be a podcaster if you were to develop these skills you will be successful in almost every area
1333. 01:29:17 of your life that's a pretty good summary of what a lot of this is that being said great for action
1334. 01:29:22 items let's do it you got three i do i mentioned the one uh using and instead of but there was another
1335. 01:29:29 one which was very similar and this i think i do a fairly decent job already but i like the way
1336. 01:29:35 that he put this and i want to make sure that i use this especially when criticizing because i
1337. 01:29:40 think that's the section that this came from is eliminate the fixed opinion words and use personal
1338. 01:29:46 words instead so the example he uses and this is the one place where i kind of felt like the words
1339. 01:29:52 that he used as examples really didn't fit today is vernacular right so he uses words like certainly
1340. 01:29:58 the point he was making was if you are talking with somebody and they say certainly you can see
1341. 01:30:02 how this you know leads to this you're projecting your opinion on these these facts in a way where
1342. 01:30:08 you're basically calling the other person stupid if they don't see it that way i don't want to do
1343. 01:30:12 that so i want to eliminate the fixed opinion words and use personal words like in my experience
1344. 01:30:18 i've seen this and i try to do that because i think that's the more authentic way to do it anyways
1345. 01:30:23 right people can argue with you when you say clearly this indicates this but people can't argue
1346. 01:30:31 with your own experience and uh i just think that like ultimately if we're if we're concerned
1347. 01:30:38 about learning from each other it doesn't matter if we have a hypothesis i'm like this is the way
1348. 01:30:43 that the world works you know what matters is that we're sharing our stories and we're evaluating
1349. 01:30:48 our experience versus the experience of others and we're trying to draw out the things that we can
1350. 01:30:53 apply the small incremental changes that are going to lead up to the the future that we want
1351. 01:30:58 yeah makes sense i want to go back to your first action item because you went over it pretty quick
1352. 01:31:02 but use and instead of but yep why um mentioned this earlier uh but the the word but when you are
1353. 01:31:12 criticizing somebody even if you start it positively instantly changes the tone of the conversation
1354. 01:31:18 so if i say you know you did a great job on this but like all of a sudden you've tuned out because
1355. 01:31:23 i'm criticizing you it's very clear that i am criticizing you because the word but infers criticism
1356. 01:31:29 but if i start with a compliment and then use the word and and then paint a picture of how we can do
1357. 01:31:34 this better next time i've allowed you to save face even though maybe you did make a mistake i
1358. 01:31:40 just think it's a lot better way to handle that that situation rather than just accusing somebody
1359. 01:31:45 yeah i think that makes a lot of sense all right so you got one more here yeah and this one i can
1360. 01:31:51 think of one specific scenario where i want to implement this so i mentioned i've got a discipleship
1361. 01:31:57 group of seven or eight guys at my church one of the things that we do is we talk about how do i put
1362. 01:32:04 this so that the action item is invite people to tell their wins but i've found that like in that
1363. 01:32:09 scenario where we're meeting together weekly we're all invested in each other's success
1364. 01:32:14 it's exciting when you see the people around you being successful so that's one place where i could
1365. 01:32:22 be a little bit more intentional like every time we get together like what's working for you guys
1366. 01:32:27 what sort of win have you had in the last week but i also think that this is a much broader
1367. 01:32:31 application and it really comes down to if you want to be interesting be interested like invite
1368. 01:32:37 other people to tell you about their wins and their accomplishments don't always just be
1369. 01:32:44 telling people about what you've done be willing to listen to what other people have been able to
1370. 01:32:49 do and then be excited and help them celebrate i think that that's one of the things that a lot
1371. 01:32:53 of people miss is that celebrating their wins and so i want to help people do that because i think
1372. 01:33:00 that that's that's a really powerful concept i've seen people who like they succeed in something
1373. 01:33:05 and they don't have anybody around them who can celebrate with them and it's almost like
1374. 01:33:09 demoralizing it's like this is it what was the point of it and i think that's kind of sad so i want
1375. 01:33:16 to help people when they reach those milestones like i want to celebrate with them that's really
1376. 01:33:20 cool i think that's going to pay dividends for both you and them so that's a that's a cool action
1377. 01:33:25 item i've got a couple here one i've kind of mentioned already avoid arguments even when it's
1378. 01:33:31 kind of a subtle argument i don't just don't joke don't so that that is definitely one i need to
1379. 01:33:39 watch and do my best to avoid my second one here is it's quite more practical i want to put together
1380. 01:33:46 a checklist for pre-client calls especially on initial meet and greet type calls one of the
1381. 01:33:52 aspects that he he calls out it was to do your research ahead of time that way you can relate
1382. 01:33:59 to that person where they are and i i've never done this per se i haven't even done it since reading
1383. 01:34:05 that section mostly because i haven't had but i think one of those scenarios and didn't fully get
1384. 01:34:11 it done then so but what are the what are the things that i want to apply as part of this checklist
1385. 01:34:15 is doing some research on the company so that i know a little bit of history about the group that
1386. 01:34:20 i'm getting ready to have a conversation with and then doing a little bit of borderline stocking on
1387. 01:34:26 the specific person that i'm going to be having on that call just trying to find points that we can
1388. 01:34:31 relate on other than weather uh that you know outside of the the great equalizer there of weather
1389. 01:34:38 and so trying to figure out what are some aspects what are some of their interests that i can engage
1390. 01:34:43 them with so that we can get that that relationship started on a good foot i haven't always been the
1391. 01:34:49 best at that i'm usually pretty good about finding that relating points but it would take some of the
1392. 01:34:54 stress of my searching for that in the midst of the first minute and a half of a phone call to get
1393. 01:34:59 that some of that search done ahead of time and not with the person there so that's part of what
1394. 01:35:05 it is i want to do and it has a lot to do with just trying to start that relationship on a good foot
1395. 01:35:11 so those are my two i really like that one and that reminds me of a story that he told that really
1396. 01:35:19 stood out to me there was a guy who was trying to sell him homeowners insurance and he asked the
1397. 01:35:24 guy well do you know what material my house is made out of and that was going to determine the
1398. 01:35:31 type of insurance that he would need right and the salesman was like well no but if you call your
1399. 01:35:35 homeowners association you can find that out in about 30 seconds and then the guy followed up with
1400. 01:35:40 him the next day and asked him you know do you want to buy the insurance and he asked the salesman
1401. 01:35:47 again do you know what material it is and he hadn't called the homeowners association to find out
1402. 01:35:53 basically he would have bought the insurance if the person had done that that's 30 seconds worth of
1403. 01:35:59 of research and that i think just that example encapsulates that mindset for a lot of people
1404. 01:36:06 and i think that it's not going to take a lot to shift that literally like 30 seconds to make that
1405. 01:36:12 phone call and do the prep stuff like you're talking about what that shows to the other person is that
1406. 01:36:19 you care about them and what they've done and i think that's uh it's something that is really
1407. 01:36:25 powerful that doesn't take a lot of extra time or effort so i think that's that's really cool
1408. 01:36:30 that's the hope like i i have a genuine interest in you and your company that's what i'm trying to
1409. 01:36:36 show because especially in today's world of how i'm doing things like i'm trying to build long-term
1410. 01:36:42 ongoing relationships well if it's not worth me taking 15 minutes before we jump on the phone to
1411. 01:36:50 do a little bit of research well then why would they want to do a long-term engagement with me yep
1412. 01:36:56 okay surely i can at least put that much forward all right i'm gonna ask you to go first with the
1413. 01:37:02 reading and review this time if that's cool okay that's cool of me so uh with reading a dale karnigi
1414. 01:37:09 book i will say this was a very easy read he is awesome at spelling out story after story after
1415. 01:37:17 story that reinforces his point over and over again and he spreads those stories out across a lot
1416. 01:37:24 of arenas from dealing with infants to parents to business scenarios i mean he's all over the place
1417. 01:37:33 as far as the the specific type of stories that he tells to to get his points across i think this
1418. 01:37:40 is a book that i will recommend to a lot of people with the preface of don't take the title at face
1419. 01:37:45 value like it's not a manipulation handbook like that is not what he's doing here so i think if you
1420. 01:37:52 have good and good motives behind the things that you do this is an awesome book this is actually
1421. 01:37:58 one from a rating stance i'm going to put this at a five oh mic this is one that i really really
1422. 01:38:03 enjoyed and i wish i had read this a long time ago so thank you for for picking this one for bookworm
1423. 01:38:08 for sure i kind of thought maybe you were going to rate it a five yeah i think this one hits me at a
1424. 01:38:14 good time too because i'm stepping into the world of building you know client relationships uh at a
1425. 01:38:21 large scale of sorts i kind of transition into somewhat of a salesperson i don't know it just
1426. 01:38:27 seems to hit me at a really good time and the the words that he shares and the way that he shares
1427. 01:38:34 them really struck me so i really enjoyed this one awesome yeah i think honestly everybody who listens
1428. 01:38:42 to this podcast and everybody and like you could apply this to literally anybody is in the business
1429. 01:38:48 of building relationships and in that arena this book is going to be a great introduction to these
1430. 01:38:55 concepts i do think there's a lot more to this stuff and while the stories that he he tells are
1431. 01:39:01 awesome again my perspective is a little bit different because i've been involved with Toastmasters
1432. 01:39:06 for a couple years i've gotten my competent communicators so i've gone through like the first
1433. 01:39:10 ten projects in that in that curriculum and i do recognize that there's a lot more to this stuff
1434. 01:39:17 we started off by talking about how this is like a 1930s lead magnet that's why i say that because
1435. 01:39:23 i recognize that these principles are great but they're surface level and so this isn't going to be
1436. 01:39:30 like the be-all end-all for this and it wasn't intended to be so that's that's not fair to say
1437. 01:39:35 like well well it didn't go deep on this particular topic because it was never never meant to do that
1438. 01:39:41 there's so many chapters in this book and it's a great way to get rolling with uh with this stuff
1439. 01:39:46 and i will say that i do think that whether you were going to join the Dale Carnegie institution
1440. 01:39:53 if it's still around or something like Toastmasters if you really want to go to the next level with this
1441. 01:39:57 you're going to want to find a program like that that being said the stuff that's in here is
1442. 01:40:04 awesome he's a very good storyteller i did find some of the stories that he tells and some of the
1443. 01:40:10 language that he used even in 1937 seemed to be a little bit like even as i read it now seemed a
1444. 01:40:15 little bit sensational to me but for most people i think that this is an absolutely
1445. 01:40:20 awesome book i am going to rate it four five instead of uh instead of a straight five oh because
1446. 01:40:25 personally going through it there was a lot of stuff in here that i had heard before i do think
1447. 01:40:33 that if you if you read it at the right time it is absolutely a slam dunk 5.0 but for me where i was
1448. 01:40:39 like i found that uh a lot of this stuff was really interesting but i also found myself like
1449. 01:40:45 wanting to understand a lot more and i wish some of the stories were were longer he's kind of like
1450. 01:40:50 jumping all over the place and so just me being in my personal situation like i wish it was a
1451. 01:40:55 little bit different than it was but uh yeah it's it's a it's a great book i definitely would recommend
1452. 01:41:00 that everybody read this one so we got a 9.5 if you add them together whoo 9.5 it's pretty good
1453. 01:41:07 uh so upcoming books you know this one was Mike's Choice the one i've chosen for following this
1454. 01:41:12 is Peek by Anders Eriksen and the subtitle on this one is Secrets from the New Science of Expertise
1455. 01:41:19 and it's basically you know he Anders Eriksen he's studied a lot of experts in their field
1456. 01:41:29 and how they've gone about becoming that expert and this if i understand it correctly is kind of a
1457. 01:41:36 summary and culmination of all of that research that's the way i i've understood it so i have not
1458. 01:41:42 started it that will happen this evening and uh i'm looking forward to this one i think it'll be
1459. 01:41:47 interesting i do not have an upcoming book because two episodes from now which is when i would normally
1460. 01:41:55 pick a book is going to be episode 50 and i don't think we've completely nailed down what we want
1461. 01:42:00 to do for episode 50 but we do want to do something a little bit uh out of the ordinary so stay tuned
1462. 01:42:06 for that but there's definitely a lot of a lot of books on the list i was kind of concerned that
1463. 01:42:11 after a while we would maybe burn through the ones that we really wanted to cover that's definitely
1464. 01:42:16 not happening no my reading list is growing the more that we do bookworm it's true i have thoughts
1465. 01:42:22 on episode 50 that i think will be a lot of fun cool i do have a gap book though my gap book which
1466. 01:42:27 i'm i'm reading right now is a john Maxwell book which i heard about from Tim Francis okay he mentioned
1467. 01:42:35 this john Maxwell book called put your dream to the test and there's really 10 questions that you
1468. 01:42:40 apply to your dream to gauge how much you really believe it and it's uh it's interesting it's a
1469. 01:42:46 little bit older book but it's really good so far interesting yeah i don't have a gap book this time
1470. 01:42:51 that's partially because i was enjoying this dale carny gee book so much that i didn't want to
1471. 01:42:57 rush it and i'm going to jump right into peak right away without reading a gap book between those
1472. 01:43:04 partially because this is somewhat of a longer book i didn't say that earlier but peak is what is
1473. 01:43:08 it 260 pages or better it's a little bit longer not significantly but a little bit so i don't have
1474. 01:43:13 a gap book this time sad day that's all right this one was pretty long too with the last section it
1475. 01:43:20 was like 280 pages at least the version that i had right so and honestly you know peak is one of the
1476. 01:43:26 the listener recommendations that was given to us and i need to go through and pick some books for
1477. 01:43:32 like the next four or five of my choice i tend to do that in batches and peak is the last of the
1478. 01:43:36 ones i've chosen so i need to do another round so if you want your book on that list or a book that
1479. 01:43:43 you've read maybe that would be cool if the author recommended it but the way that we're taking
1480. 01:43:47 recommendations now has changed a little bit we've got the bookworm club so club.bookworm.fm you can
1481. 01:43:53 go there create a new topic in the recommendations category and that will show up on the list and
1482. 01:43:58 you can see all of the ones that have been recommended there and you know to kind of go along with that
1483. 01:44:03 if you find a book in that list of recommendations that you especially want us to cover hit the vote
1484. 01:44:09 button you can sign up and hit a vote button on those particular books and it shows your interest
1485. 01:44:16 in that particular book and the higher the votes the more likely it is that we'll choose it for the
1486. 01:44:20 show we still reserve the right to say no mike has assured me that he really wants the the right to
1487. 01:44:25 veto book so we're not just going to pick the one at the top of the list but it helps guide us towards
1488. 01:44:31 the ones that you're the most interested in yeah i'm a little bit nervous i know i know mike was very
1489. 01:44:36 particular about this when we were talking about it but there's also a list of all the books that we
1490. 01:44:42 have covered already which you can see just through the episode list on bookworm but if you want to
1491. 01:44:46 see a condensed version of that you can go to bookworm.fm/list and then you can see all of the books that we
1492. 01:44:53 have that we have covered so far nice so yeah that bookworm club that's club.bookworm.fm
1493. 01:44:59 that's where you can go to make recommendations you can also join the conversation there we've had
1494. 01:45:05 some pretty cool conversations about people who are reading along with us so if you're ready to join
1495. 01:45:11 the unverified internet's largest book club head over there join the club we'd also appreciate it
1496. 01:45:20 if you would head over to iTunes and leave us a review i looked at it today we're now third on the
1497. 01:45:25 search term which i don't understand the diet of bookworms is number two but they haven't published
1498. 01:45:29 in episodes since like 2012 so we really got it got to change that uh kcrw by the way has like
1499. 01:45:35 130 reviews and we've got like 24 i think so we're on our way we're on our way but if everybody
1500. 01:45:43 who listens to this takes five minutes and goes leave goes and leaves us a review then we would
1501. 01:45:49 definitely take down kcrw so help us people join the revolution the challenge has been laid down
1502. 01:45:55 this is win win all right well if you're reading along with us pick up peak by Anders Ericsson
1503. 01:46:03 and we'll go through that one next time and we'll start prepping for the elusive or mysterious the
1504. 01:46:10 illustrious illustrious episode 50 we got to work on the term