67: Quiet by Susan Cain

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1. 00:00:00 Do you get the private messages that come through on the club?
2. 00:00:03 I do. In fact, there's a bunch of them from admin type messages saying,
3. 00:00:09 "You should look at this in the dashboard. I never look at those."
4. 00:00:11 Yeah, you shouldn't because I ignore those too.
5. 00:00:13 But there are several that come through from real people, and I always look at those.
6. 00:00:18 Probably 90% of them have something in common.
7. 00:00:22 It might be more than that because there's quite a few that I know that you see that I also see,
8. 00:00:29 but I delete a bunch when they come through as well.
9. 00:00:33 I need to call this out.
10. 00:00:35 We run a podcast called Bookworm.
11. 00:00:39 Whenever there are authors trying to promote a book, guess where a lot of them go.
12. 00:00:46 Podcasts. We tend to show up in a lot of those results
13. 00:00:51 whenever people are searching for book-related podcasts to be a part of.
14. 00:00:59 We get a lot of those requests.
15. 00:01:02 We're not a huge show, but we get a lot of those requests.
16. 00:01:06 The part that is hilarious to me is that you can instantly,
17. 00:01:10 within like a first couple sentences,
18. 00:01:12 you can tell if they've actually listened to the show or not.
19. 00:01:15 They haven't. Spoiler alert.
20. 00:01:17 Yeah. If I can tell that you have actually listened to the show
21. 00:01:23 and you understand our format,
22. 00:01:25 I will at least read through the whole thing and send a reply.
23. 00:01:29 Or sometimes I've noticed you do that as well, Mike.
24. 00:01:31 If you don't hear from us at all, guess what?
25. 00:01:34 We know you haven't listened to the show.
26. 00:01:38 The most obvious ones are because the bulk of the requests we get are,
27. 00:01:42 "Can you talk about our book?"
28. 00:01:46 But it's a fiction book.
29. 00:01:48 Yeah. Show of hands.
30. 00:01:51 This is a podcast. This is Google Well.
31. 00:01:52 Show of hands. How many of the listeners out there
32. 00:01:56 have ever heard us review a fiction book?
33. 00:01:59 We have never done a fiction book,
34. 00:02:01 and we probably never will do a fiction book.
35. 00:02:05 I'm not going to make a blanket statement that we will absolutely never do that
36. 00:02:08 because I do think that there's some value from reading fiction books.
37. 00:02:11 But it's really not the type of thing that Bookworm is.
38. 00:02:16 We've talked about before that there's always different types of books
39. 00:02:21 and there's not one that's better than the other.
40. 00:02:23 But we tend to review the books on Bookworm that we like to read.
41. 00:02:27 These are the books that we like to read.
42. 00:02:29 I am not interested in the next clan of the cave bear.
43. 00:02:33 So stop sending me messages.
44. 00:02:35 I don't have more questions.
45. 00:02:36 I don't need more information.
46. 00:02:38 This is not a good fit.
47. 00:02:40 Just stop emailing because you obviously never listened to the show.
48. 00:02:43 Yeah, but see, here's the problem.
49. 00:02:46 Like they're not going to hear us say this.
50. 00:02:47 So I know. I know.
51. 00:02:49 Well, for the other 900 people who are writing the next great fiction novel,
52. 00:02:53 I'm sure your book is great, but we're not interested in having you on Bookworm
53. 00:02:58 to promote your fiction book.
54. 00:03:00 We've had authors on the show before that have written books that I've thought
55. 00:03:05 and you've thought, Joe, are valuable to the audience
56. 00:03:07 because we approach books a certain way and we want to learn something from them.
57. 00:03:11 We want to leave changed when we're done with the book
58. 00:03:14 and we want to understand different ideas that we can apply to our own life.
59. 00:03:19 Fiction books just aren't a real great fit for that.
60. 00:03:21 So sorry to all you fiction writers, but please stop sending us messages.
61. 00:03:27 And even worse is like when it's not the author,
62. 00:03:30 when it's somebody else who you've paid to promote your book
63. 00:03:33 because they're going to send five follow-up messages
64. 00:03:35 because this is what they're paid to do.
65. 00:03:37 Yes.
66. 00:03:38 So I'm anticipating a bunch more emails from Victoria, but...
67. 00:03:42 I'm sure.
68. 00:03:44 Here's... Well, here might... This might be a catch.
69. 00:03:46 The Legend of the Monk and the Merchant. We did that.
70. 00:03:49 Would that qualify as fiction?
71. 00:03:50 That's true.
72. 00:03:51 It's a fable.
73. 00:03:53 So that's kind of borderline.
74. 00:03:55 And that's why I say like, I don't say we'll never do a straight fiction book
75. 00:03:59 because there are those books that are kind of the middle ground
76. 00:04:02 and you can learn stuff from them.
77. 00:04:04 Yeah, like the Patrick Lincey Oni books always have a fable at the beginning,
78. 00:04:11 which is fiction technically.
79. 00:04:13 Yeah, the other one I really liked back in the day was something about vampires.
80. 00:04:17 Like, no.
81. 00:04:18 Not here.
82. 00:04:20 That's the type of stuff I'm drawing the line.
83. 00:04:22 No, we're never going to talk about vampires on Bookworld.
84. 00:04:25 All right, well...
85. 00:04:25 Take your Twilight somewhere else.
86. 00:04:26 There you go.
87. 00:04:27 So we've got our rant out of the way.
88. 00:04:29 So there you go.
89. 00:04:29 Yep, we do get lots of messages like that.
90. 00:04:31 So if you don't hear from us, it's because we're not going to do it.
91. 00:04:34 That's why.
92. 00:04:35 Yep.
93. 00:04:36 I did get a good message, though, from a Bookworm Premium Club member the other day.
94. 00:04:40 Michael, who had asked how I read books.
95. 00:04:43 And this got my wheels turning.
96. 00:04:44 We've talked about it quite a bit, but I recorded a video from Michael and just kind
97. 00:04:49 of walked through my process from deciding on the book to read to downloading the image,
98. 00:04:53 putting it in the MyNote file, all the different types of things that I used to denote, like
99. 00:04:56 talking points or action items or stuff like that.
100. 00:05:00 And going through that process made me realize that this is probably something I should have
101. 00:05:06 explained a long time ago.
102. 00:05:09 So Michael got an answer right away because I got the message via the private direct messages
103. 00:05:14 in the Bookworm Club because he's a premium member.
104. 00:05:17 I saw him come in and I wanted to give him something back right away.
105. 00:05:21 So I recorded a quick screencast and sent it to him.
106. 00:05:24 But I am working on a blog post for this as well.
107. 00:05:27 And I'm going to commit on air here by the time this episode publishes that this will
108. 00:05:31 be live on my blog.
109. 00:05:32 So there will be a link to this in the show notes.
110. 00:05:35 But I feel like this is something that people need to know if they're really going to get
111. 00:05:39 anything out of my maps that I put together, which are all available in the Bookworm Club
112. 00:05:44 to the premium members.
113. 00:05:45 You can go download any of those MyNote files that I've uploaded, not just the books for
114. 00:05:49 Bookworm, but also a lot of my gapbooks, basically anything that has a significant amount of
115. 00:05:53 information I throw up there as a PDF file.
116. 00:05:57 But just looking at it, you know, it's I've got a lot of things that I use different emoticons,
117. 00:06:02 emoji, whatever, that denote different things.
118. 00:06:05 And I wanted to create like a legend for this sort of thing.
119. 00:06:09 So people understand, I guess, how my brain works before they try to try to decipher those
120. 00:06:15 files.
121. 00:06:16 Okay, cool.
122. 00:06:17 I think it'd be fun.
123. 00:06:18 Yep.
124. 00:06:19 So no video probably on the blog post, but I have started this and it's going to be up
125. 00:06:22 by the time we publish a couple other quick things here.
126. 00:06:26 We mentioned the shirts before.
127. 00:06:27 I'll mention it again just because this is T-shirt season.
128. 00:06:30 There's a ton of them on Cotton Bureau right now.
129. 00:06:34 People are doing all the tech ones because they want to get them before they go to WWDC.
130. 00:06:38 Well, you and I are both going to be at MaxTalks.
131. 00:06:40 Right.
132. 00:06:41 So if you want to get your shirt before MaxTalk and wear it, there's show everybody what a
133. 00:06:45 Bookworm you are, then you want to get those now.
134. 00:06:48 We're going to stop mentioning this pretty soon.
135. 00:06:50 But because they're always going to be available and you can get the link in the show notes,
136. 00:06:55 but there's T-shirts and then there's also the sweatshirt, which you and I are both
137. 00:06:58 fans of pretty soon.
138. 00:06:59 It's going to be too warm to wear the sweatshirt, which is going to be a sad day.
139. 00:07:02 Yeah, but evenings and mornings definitely warrant sweatshirts yet.
140. 00:07:06 All right.
141. 00:07:07 Then MaxTalk, which I mentioned, that's happening at the end of July.
142. 00:07:12 And as we're recording this, there's still time to get the early bird.
143. 00:07:15 By the time this goes live, the early bird price is going to be gone, which is unfortunate.
144. 00:07:21 But if you use the code focused, because I'm going to be speaking at MaxTalk, you can still
145. 00:07:26 get the early bird price.
146. 00:07:29 So even if you missed the early bird price and it went up significantly, you can use
147. 00:07:33 that code and you still get the early bird price.
148. 00:07:35 If you would have used this code prior to, when the early bird went away, you would have
149. 00:07:39 saved an extra $10.
150. 00:07:40 But if you've been on the fence or you weren't sure you're going to be able to go, now you
151. 00:07:43 are able to go.
152. 00:07:44 I'd love to see you at MaxTalk and code focused, we'll save you some money.
153. 00:07:48 Yeah, for sure.
154. 00:07:49 It's going to be a pretty big event this year too, because I know David Sparks is going
155. 00:07:53 to be there and so will Stephen Hackett and their recording episode 500 for MacPower
156. 00:07:58 users there.
157. 00:08:00 So I'm pretty stoked.
158. 00:08:01 I think it's going to be a good time.
159. 00:08:03 I mean, it seems like every year it continues getting bigger.
160. 00:08:06 It does.
161. 00:08:07 It keeps getting bigger, which I'm really excited about.
162. 00:08:09 I want to see this thing keep growing.
163. 00:08:11 And I've told Mike over and over again over the years that I've been there, like, I'll
164. 00:08:15 do anything that I can to help promote this thing, because it's such a cool environment.
165. 00:08:19 If you've never been physically in the presence of a bunch of other Mac nerds, there's nothing
166. 00:08:24 like the Apple community.
167. 00:08:27 It's kind of hard to describe, but they're just some of the nicest people you'll find
168. 00:08:31 on the internet or in the world, especially on the internet.
169. 00:08:34 Oh, internet.
170. 00:08:36 So yes, MaxTalk, I want to see you there.
171. 00:08:40 Come find us.
172. 00:08:41 We'll have bookmarks and stickers.
173. 00:08:42 And pins.
174. 00:08:44 And pins.
175. 00:08:45 I need a pin.
176. 00:08:46 I don't have pins.
177. 00:08:47 See, this isn't fair.
178. 00:08:48 I don't even have pins.
179. 00:08:49 And then the only other real action item that we have to follow up on is I had one for simplifying
180. 00:08:53 my systems and habits.
181. 00:08:56 Looking back on this, I probably should have clarified this a lot more.
182. 00:08:59 What the status of done is for this.
183. 00:09:02 Details.
184. 00:09:03 Yeah.
185. 00:09:04 Well, I've started working on it, but I haven't really made a whole lot of progress on it.
186. 00:09:07 So I think this is still carrying over.
187. 00:09:10 I don't really think there's been anything I've noticed so far that I was like, this
188. 00:09:17 is way more complicated than it needs to be.
189. 00:09:20 I've kind of been in the mode of recognizing which systems are broken.
190. 00:09:25 So specifically with my family, I've been kind of like taking some notes like, okay, we
191. 00:09:30 were in this situation and this could have been avoided.
192. 00:09:33 But I'll just not jot this down.
193. 00:09:36 And then I'll have a thought about this later, kind of deconstruct why this happened and
194. 00:09:40 how we got here.
195. 00:09:42 The solutions have not surfaced yet.
196. 00:09:44 Certainly because I've been running like crazy, trying to get a couple of projects done as
197. 00:09:48 we're recording this, I just ran my half marathon on Saturday.
198. 00:09:51 Ooh.
199. 00:09:52 How'd I go?
200. 00:09:53 It went well.
201. 00:09:54 I was fighting a cold, which is not great when you were running half marathon.
202. 00:09:59 It was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do because I couldn't breathe.
203. 00:10:02 Yeah.
204. 00:10:03 But I did beat my target time.
205. 00:10:05 I was hoping for a time of one hour or 50 minutes.
206. 00:10:09 I came in at 148.48, which is like an eight minute, 18 second pace.
207. 00:10:13 So I was happy with how I did.
208. 00:10:16 I did not hurt myself, which was an improvement over last year.
209. 00:10:20 Last year I overtrained the patella tendon in my knee, slipped off my kneecap.
210. 00:10:26 And so rather than have surgery, I elected for physical therapy, then started running
211. 00:10:30 again, increased my distance too fast, had to deal with plantar, fasciitis.
212. 00:10:35 And so it's been a struggle over the last year.
213. 00:10:38 And this was kind of like my line in the sand.
214. 00:10:40 Like by this time, next year, I'm going to run this thing again.
215. 00:10:43 I'm not going to hurt myself.
216. 00:10:44 I'm going to do it the right way.
217. 00:10:45 So from that perspective, mission accomplished.
218. 00:10:48 Woohoo.
219. 00:10:49 Well, congratulations.
220. 00:10:50 Well done, Mike.
221. 00:10:52 Thank you.
222. 00:10:53 So that said, since you've been running around literally, have you had time to read this book?
223. 00:10:59 I have.
224. 00:11:00 This is a good book.
225. 00:11:01 I am excited to talk about this one.
226. 00:11:03 This will be a fun one.
227. 00:11:04 So this is a reread for me and my choice.
228. 00:11:08 So maybe that'll be an indicator of my preference towards the book.
229. 00:11:12 But this one is Quiet by Susan Kane.
230. 00:11:16 Tagline is the power of introverts in a world that can't stop talking.
231. 00:11:20 And this was originally written in 2012.
232. 00:11:26 I originally came across Susan Kane through her TED talk, which is one of those like top
233. 00:11:31 10 TED talks out there.
234. 00:11:33 If you ever watch it, it definitely has this feel of your rooting for her because she's
235. 00:11:40 talking about fear of public speaking and how it terrifies her.
236. 00:11:45 And yet she's there speaking to you.
237. 00:11:47 And it's like you're rooting for her the whole time.
238. 00:11:52 It's really kind of a cool talk, but that's what introduced me to Susan Kane.
239. 00:11:57 And then I picked up this book.
240. 00:11:58 I think it was a, no, it would have been, yeah, it was right after it came out.
241. 00:12:02 So it had been about seven years ago.
242. 00:12:05 So I read it then.
243. 00:12:07 I'm in a very different place today.
244. 00:12:09 I didn't have any kids at the time.
245. 00:12:10 Now I have three.
246. 00:12:11 So like things are very, very different.
247. 00:12:14 And there's a lot of this that as I was reading it, I came away thinking, holy cow, this is
248. 00:12:19 a very different book than what I read seven years ago.
249. 00:12:24 So it had a huge impact on me again.
250. 00:12:27 And there's a lot of pieces that I didn't recall, but I do really enjoy this book.
251. 00:12:31 So what's the, if you were to encapsulate it in like a single sentence, what's the big
252. 00:12:35 takeaway?
253. 00:12:36 Like how is it different this time than last time?
254. 00:12:39 I remember the first time when I came away from it thinking that it's okay to be an introvert.
255. 00:12:44 This time I came away from it with the perspective of more of a learning of how to interact with
256. 00:12:52 both myself and other people as a result of being an introvert.
257. 00:12:57 Okay.
258. 00:12:58 So like in one case, I was, it was more of an acceptance of myself.
259. 00:13:01 And in the second case, it's like, okay, well, now it'll be like, how do I take advantage
260. 00:13:05 of that?
261. 00:13:06 Gotcha.
262. 00:13:07 So yeah.
263. 00:13:08 Yeah.
264. 00:13:09 I think that depending on the season of your life, you can get very different messages from
265. 00:13:14 reading this book.
266. 00:13:16 Yes.
267. 00:13:17 Yeah.
268. 00:13:18 Now we've all probably heard these terms, introverts and extroverts.
269. 00:13:23 And there is a third ambiverts, which I don't think we're going to cover in too much detail
270. 00:13:29 here because she doesn't really, you know, spend any time on that, on that term in this
271. 00:13:34 book.
272. 00:13:35 She doesn't call it out.
273. 00:13:36 And that it's about, it's basically overlooked.
274. 00:13:39 But introverts versus extroverts, these terms come from a book published by Carl Jung, psychological
275. 00:13:46 types.
276. 00:13:47 It was in 1921 that this came out and his way of differentiating between these two.
277. 00:13:55 And I'll just read this straight from the book.
278. 00:13:57 This is on page 10.
279. 00:13:59 Introverts are drawn to the inner world of thought and feeling extroverts to the external
280. 00:14:04 life of people and activities.
281. 00:14:07 Now the rest of the book is spent kind of comparing and contrasting those two and going
282. 00:14:14 into a lot more detail around the qualities of each that have been learned since 1921,
283. 00:14:22 which is quite old at this point.
284. 00:14:25 So there's a lot of research been done and the whole book is spent going through a lot
285. 00:14:29 of that.
286. 00:14:30 So it's a very fascinating read.
287. 00:14:32 I really enjoyed this one, Mike.
288. 00:14:34 Yeah, I definitely did too.
289. 00:14:35 One of the things that I picked up at the beginning here is that the US is one of the
290. 00:14:40 most extroverted nations in the world.
291. 00:14:42 So as an introvert, great system working against me.
292. 00:14:48 But also that many people pretend to be extroverts.
293. 00:14:52 And this is interesting to me because it made me question all of those people that I thought
294. 00:14:57 were extroverts.
295. 00:14:58 Are they really extroverts or are they really introverted like me, which doesn't mean that
296. 00:15:02 you're a hermit or even necessarily that you're shy, but you tend to be a thinker is kind
297. 00:15:07 of how she described it.
298. 00:15:09 She has a quiz in this introduction section with 20 questions and it's a totally informal
299. 00:15:15 quiz, but I took it and if you answered true more than 10 times, basically you were introverted
300. 00:15:22 and if you answered true less than 10 times, you were essentially extroverted.
301. 00:15:29 I had 18 true answers.
302. 00:15:32 So that was a clue to me that I was indeed an introvert.
303. 00:15:36 I took it a step further though because it was a very informal survey.
304. 00:15:41 So I downloaded one of these free Myers Briggs apps and took not the full thing because you
305. 00:15:48 have to pay like 50 bucks for that.
306. 00:15:50 And I wasn't that curious.
307. 00:15:53 But I was kind of curious how introverted I was based off of the results of that informal
308. 00:15:59 survey.
309. 00:16:00 And then also as I was reading this book, we interviewed for Focus, Jocelyn K.Gly, who
310. 00:16:06 a big section in that episode ended up being like, how do you be assertive as an introvert
311. 00:16:12 sort of a thing?
312. 00:16:13 Right.
313. 00:16:14 Because she worked in a pretty crazy startup environment and she identified as introverted.
314. 00:16:19 So she took some pretty, you might say, drastic measures in order to create the space for her
315. 00:16:25 to breathe and to think.
316. 00:16:26 But I thought it was kind of cool how she handled the situation.
317. 00:16:29 So she mentioned the Myers Briggs thing and I got me curious, like, what am I?
318. 00:16:33 Because I don't think I've ever taken it.
319. 00:16:34 So I took this simplified version on this app and it came back as INTJ, which is the
320. 00:16:40 mastermind.
321. 00:16:41 It's 77% introvert, 77% intuition, 66% thinking, 88% judging.
322. 00:16:47 Which anybody who knows me is not surprised.
323. 00:16:52 You took it too.
324. 00:16:53 So what did you get?
325. 00:16:54 I took it five times and the reason being I took it twice in the same app that you did
326. 00:17:01 Mike.
327. 00:17:02 One time I got, what was it, ISFJ?
328. 00:17:08 The second time I took it, I got INTJ, which is identical to yours.
329. 00:17:14 Yeah.
330. 00:17:15 I took it in three other different places online.
331. 00:17:19 I'll explain why in a second.
332. 00:17:22 In a couple of cases I got INTP and in another case I got an ISFJ again.
333. 00:17:29 Part of the reason for that is because on the intuition and thinking part, I tend to
334. 00:17:33 float at like 52, 51%.
335. 00:17:36 Yeah, it's your borderline.
336. 00:17:38 Yeah.
337. 00:17:39 So I float those lines.
338. 00:17:41 The introvert side, I'm always, what is this?
339. 00:17:44 I'm at 88% on the introvert piece.
340. 00:17:47 Which is really the one that matters for this book.
341. 00:17:50 Yeah.
342. 00:17:51 That's the one that's like concrete.
343. 00:17:53 This one does not change.
344. 00:17:55 But the other three, yeah, I float between like 51 and 56% on the other three.
345. 00:18:00 I tend to flex between those.
346. 00:18:02 So depending on which questions from the master Myers-Briggs they pull in, it will have me
347. 00:18:08 float across those.
348. 00:18:10 So I was hoping I would find some form of like consistency across all these, but it
349. 00:18:15 was completely different like every time.
350. 00:18:18 So yeah.
351. 00:18:19 Yeah.
352. 00:18:20 So yeah.
353. 00:18:21 Well, the one consistent is that you are definitely introverted.
354. 00:18:24 Which I am to and that's obviously going to color our perspective as we read through
355. 00:18:28 this book.
356. 00:18:29 I don't know really why an extrovert would read this book other than an introvert gave
357. 00:18:33 it to them and said, "Here, you need to understand me."
358. 00:18:36 Sure.
359. 00:18:37 Yeah, so should we jump into the first section?
360. 00:18:41 Yeah, sure.
361. 00:18:43 By the way, regarding the sections, so we tease a lot that every book in the self-help
362. 00:18:48 space has three different sections.
363. 00:18:50 This one actually has four sections, but one of them only has one chapter.
364. 00:18:54 So I'm not really sure why it's a section.
365. 00:18:56 Yeah.
366. 00:18:57 There's more sections, but less chapters than the previous book we covered, which was extreme
367. 00:19:01 ownership.
368. 00:19:02 Yeah.
369. 00:19:03 I feel like that it's part three that it just has the one.
370. 00:19:06 I felt like it was an aside.
371. 00:19:07 Yep.
372. 00:19:08 It's like, "I need to call this out."
373. 00:19:11 Good points in that section, which we'll get to in a little bit.
374. 00:19:14 But this first section is the extrovert ideal.
375. 00:19:18 And here she kind of unpacks this mythos, I guess, like this character that we picture
376. 00:19:27 in our heads of, "This is the ideal person."
377. 00:19:31 And one of the traits that they have is extroversion.
378. 00:19:34 The first chapter is called "The Rise of the Mighty Likeable Fellow," which is interesting.
379. 00:19:42 She has a lot of awesome stories that she tells in here.
380. 00:19:44 I really like her style as a storyteller.
381. 00:19:47 And she starts this off with the story of Dale Carnegie, who people are probably familiar
382. 00:19:52 with because he wrote how to win friends and influence people and a lot of other really
383. 00:19:58 popular books in the self-help space.
384. 00:20:01 But I found myself filling in a lot of blanks that I did not know as she told the story
385. 00:20:06 about Dale Carnegie.
386. 00:20:07 Yeah, because we covered how to win friends and influence people, which is kind of a
387. 00:20:11 divisive book.
388. 00:20:15 And yeah, people will fight over that one to some degree, even you and I did to some degree
389. 00:20:21 as well.
390. 00:20:24 But it is interesting because when you look at a lot of self-help books, and I didn't
391. 00:20:30 really connect this until we were reading this.
392. 00:20:34 But a lot of them have this undertone of how to be popular almost, which in the American
393. 00:20:45 culture is outgoing, outspoken.
394. 00:20:48 You vocalize your opinions.
395. 00:20:51 The mighty likeable fellow, like that phrase, like, "Everything seems to have that undertone
396. 00:20:57 to it."
397. 00:20:58 Unless we're talking about things like grit by Angela Duckworth or things like the sleep
398. 00:21:03 revolution.
399. 00:21:04 Unless we're talking about things like that, almost everything has this undertone of extra
400. 00:21:10 version is the place you should be.
401. 00:21:13 Yep.
402. 00:21:14 Which I don't think I really connected until Susan called it out here.
403. 00:21:19 Yeah, and that's why the story that she tells at the beginning is so interesting because
404. 00:21:23 Dale Carnegie really wasn't the extroverted ideal when he started.
405. 00:21:30 She talks about how he was the son of some poor pig farmers and he went to hear this
406. 00:21:34 speaker at a church.
407. 00:21:36 He was inspired by this speaker who also kind of came from being a lowly farm boy.
408. 00:21:42 And so he decides to develop his public speaking skills in college when he notices that the
409. 00:21:47 people who can speak well are the ones who are viewed as leaders.
410. 00:21:50 And over time he becomes a speaking champion, teaches other people how to speak.
411. 00:21:55 He hosts a class at the Y which at the time refused to pay him the $2 per session fee
412. 00:22:00 that most night school teachers got because they didn't think there'd be much demand.
413. 00:22:03 And then basically overnight it becomes a sensation.
414. 00:22:06 Dale Carnegie Institute is born and he dedicates his life to helping businessmen root out the
415. 00:22:10 very insecurities that held him back as a young man.
416. 00:22:13 So it sounds like a very noble story, you know?
417. 00:22:16 And really what she's saying with this story is not like, here's somebody who achieves
418. 00:22:21 some success.
419. 00:22:22 Now you can go do the same thing which is a lot of what you hear in this space.
420. 00:22:25 But it's like, why do we put so much emphasis on this stuff?
421. 00:22:30 You know, this is an example of the emphasis of this extrovert ideal.
422. 00:22:35 And she's basically saying, I don't think she says it explicitly, but this is kind of
423. 00:22:40 the tone that you get is like, why are we doing this?
424. 00:22:43 Maybe this isn't such a good thing.
425. 00:22:45 And one of the things that she uses to support that which I totally agree with this.
426. 00:22:49 And this kind of comes back to the point you mentioned about like the self-help books and
427. 00:22:54 the divisive nature of something like how to win friends and influence people.
428. 00:22:58 Susan Keene says that we went from a culture of character to a culture of personality.
429. 00:23:04 And I think that's a great description.
430. 00:23:06 She describes a culture of character as a serious, disciplined, and honorable.
431. 00:23:09 The culture of personality is bold and entertaining.
432. 00:23:12 The big thing missing there, I would say, would be integrity.
433. 00:23:16 Like that's a central pillar of the culture of character.
434. 00:23:20 And when you focus so much on the personality, it's easy to lose that.
435. 00:23:24 So fast forward a little bit.
436. 00:23:26 You know, we're in 2018, 2019, whenever we covered how to win friends and influence people,
437. 00:23:33 we're viewing that through the lens of today.
438. 00:23:36 And we're comparing it against this culture of personality that we've just come to accept.
439. 00:23:42 And there's so many people in the productivity self-help space which feel like used car salesman.
440. 00:23:48 Okay.
441. 00:23:49 You just can't trust anything that they say.
442. 00:23:51 And so when you pick up a book titled How to Win Friends and Influence People, even though
443. 00:23:55 it was written in what like 1920 something, when you view it through the lens of what
444. 00:24:00 you understand about the space today, you instantly can attach a negative stigma to that.
445. 00:24:08 But it's kind of interesting to me to understand that that wasn't the way it was when it was
446. 00:24:13 originally written because there was a totally different culture that existed there.
447. 00:24:19 And as self-help books began to shift from inter-virtue to outer charm, I can totally
448. 00:24:23 see why people have a negative reaction to them.
449. 00:24:25 Right.
450. 00:24:26 So one of the pieces of this section that I, because you mentioned like the United States
451. 00:24:31 is one of the most extroverted countries and she does, you know, give us a potential reason
452. 00:24:39 for why that is.
453. 00:24:42 And that rationale was that, or is, that the United States is based on immigration.
454. 00:24:50 And like the colonies, everything was started from folks immigrating from other countries
455. 00:24:58 across the pond, as we say.
456. 00:25:00 And if you think about the type of people who would normally go on a world trip like
457. 00:25:08 that, the people who would be more comfortable doing that would be extroverts.
458. 00:25:11 Introverts would rather stay at home and read about it as opposed to hopping on a ship and
459. 00:25:16 sailing across the ocean.
460. 00:25:18 Like that's not something that's going to appeal to most introverts.
461. 00:25:22 So typically you're going to have more extroverts and introverts make that journey, which means
462. 00:25:27 that the foundation of the country was started with an abnormally high amount of extroverts.
463. 00:25:35 Fast forward a few hundred years and here we are.
464. 00:25:39 So I don't know, I had never really heard anything along those lines, but it was kind
465. 00:25:42 of interesting to me.
466. 00:25:43 Yeah, another thing that kind of comes up in this section because she references a video
467. 00:25:49 from the Toastmasters website.
468. 00:25:51 I went and looked and tried to find that video, but I couldn't.
469. 00:25:54 I must have taken it down.
470. 00:25:56 I mean, it's not surprising because it kind of sounded like a 1980s, 1990s cheesy video.
471. 00:26:03 But the video essentially was portraying a situation where two coworkers were talking
472. 00:26:11 and one of them was having a negative reaction to having to give a presentation.
473. 00:26:16 The other one is basically saying, "I used to struggle with that, but then I joined Toastmasters
474. 00:26:19 and everything changed."
475. 00:26:21 So that I didn't really like being a member of a Toastmasters group because I've gotten
476. 00:26:26 a lot of value from being a part of Toastmasters.
477. 00:26:29 But I went to the website to see if I could find it and the very first thing I saw on
478. 00:26:32 the website is build a better you.
479. 00:26:36 So the messaging is still kind of there.
480. 00:26:40 The goal of Toastmasters, I think, is a good one to improve your communication and leadership
481. 00:26:44 skills.
482. 00:26:45 And kind of the point that she makes in this chapter is that you shouldn't feel like you
483. 00:26:52 have to develop these skills, I think.
484. 00:26:56 And I think I agree with that as well.
485. 00:26:58 As I was processing this in my head and trying to figure out, so where's the balance between
486. 00:27:05 holding up the extraverted ideal and developing yourself when some of these skills do tend
487. 00:27:12 to line themselves up with being extroverted?
488. 00:27:16 I do...
489. 00:27:17 Kind of this is kind of where I landed and I haven't probably thought this all the way
490. 00:27:20 through yet.
491. 00:27:21 So maybe this is right.
492. 00:27:22 Okay.
493. 00:27:23 So don't ask too many questions.
494. 00:27:24 Is that what you're telling me?
495. 00:27:25 No, I'll go ahead and ask questions.
496. 00:27:26 But this is kind of what I've landed on.
497. 00:27:28 I believe personally as an introvert who's a part of Toastmasters that it is good to develop
498. 00:27:34 your skills, but your value is not derived from them.
499. 00:27:40 So if you decide, Joe, that you're not going to go to Toastmasters, I am not a better person
500. 00:27:46 than you simply because I went, just because I've chosen to try to improve my communication
501. 00:27:51 and leadership skills.
502. 00:27:52 We've talked...
503. 00:27:53 I've mentioned on this podcast before that I'm fascinated by the topic of leadership.
504. 00:27:58 So I'm going to try and develop those skills.
505. 00:27:59 But even if I develop myself to my maximum potential as a leader, you can't really get
506. 00:28:06 to the point where you're like, "Okay, I've fully arrived."
507. 00:28:09 And now my value is X compared to it was only Y six months ago or five years ago, whatever.
508. 00:28:17 I do think the point that she's making is you have to understand yourself, introverted
509. 00:28:22 versus extroverted, and we'll get an impact on some of the further chapters.
510. 00:28:26 But it's not like you're going to be this one thing all of the time.
511. 00:28:30 You're going to have to go in and out of these different modes depending on the situation.
512. 00:28:36 She talks about your core projects and stuff like that, those things that push you outside
513. 00:28:39 of your comfort zone.
514. 00:28:41 But really I think the point at the beginning here is that don't look at yourself as an
515. 00:28:46 introvert reading this book and say, "Well, I'm not a very good communicator.
516. 00:28:49 Maybe I don't view myself as a good leader."
517. 00:28:52 Think of yourself any less because of that.
518. 00:28:56 That whole term build a better you.
519. 00:28:59 I don't know.
520. 00:29:00 On one level, I get it.
521. 00:29:02 There's certain areas I do want to develop myself.
522. 00:29:06 Public speaking has been one of those, but just because I develop those skills doesn't,
523. 00:29:10 in my opinion, mean that I'm better than I was if that makes sense.
524. 00:29:14 Yeah, I could see that.
525. 00:29:16 I think there's differences between you're an introvert that can flex outside of your
526. 00:29:25 tendencies.
527. 00:29:26 But what you're talking about with Toastmasters and build a better you and improving communication
528. 00:29:32 and leadership styles, a lot of that can come down to taking advantage of your introvert
529. 00:29:39 strengths in the process of doing that.
530. 00:29:43 Because you can, this is something I have actively tried to develop is becoming better
531. 00:29:50 in social situations.
532. 00:29:51 I used to be crazy awkward in social settings.
533. 00:29:57 I can tell you I have a long ways to go in that journey, but I also know that that is
534. 00:30:03 me trying to develop a skill that is not natural to me.
535. 00:30:10 I'm totally cool with that.
536. 00:30:12 It's simply a matter of knowing that I want to be able to socialize better and connect
537. 00:30:19 with people in those settings better.
538. 00:30:20 But I also know that my tendency is always going to be to connect one on one or one on
539. 00:30:24 two with people in a corner.
540. 00:30:26 Like that's always my tendency.
541. 00:30:29 Which is the totally valid expression of communication skill, in my opinion.
542. 00:30:34 So improving communication skills and even leadership skills, we throw those terms around
543. 00:30:40 and I think a lot of people think of that as being able to lead or communicate to a
544. 00:30:44 large group.
545. 00:30:45 That's not necessarily the truth there.
546. 00:30:48 So I guess really the thing I'm kind of pushing back against is the term better.
547. 00:30:53 Because I think that ascribes value to you as a person right now compared to you as a
548. 00:31:00 person at some other point in your life.
549. 00:31:04 And your value as a person, I would argue, does not change based on what skills you have
550. 00:31:11 or how, where you feel comfortable.
551. 00:31:13 Right.
552. 00:31:14 And some of this comes out in the second chapter here because the next one is the myth of charismatic
553. 00:31:18 leadership.
554. 00:31:19 And I think what we're talking about here has to do with how you lead groups of people
555. 00:31:24 or how you can be someone that motivates other people through your actions.
556. 00:31:30 And especially in the United States, that whole extroverted ideal concept is exacerbated
557. 00:31:40 in leadership roles.
558. 00:31:42 And that's exactly what she gets into here is that good leaders need to be charismatic.
559. 00:31:48 And she tells the story of a Tony Robbins conference, which made me 100% certain I don't
560. 00:31:57 ever want to go to one of these conferences.
561. 00:32:00 So I actually had the opportunity to go to a Tony Robbins.
562. 00:32:05 Did you go?
563. 00:32:06 Did you go?
564. 00:32:07 No, I could have gone for free.
565. 00:32:08 Tan wanted to send me to unleash the power within when I was a part of the Asian efficiency
566. 00:32:13 team.
567. 00:32:14 But there was just something about Tony Robbins that just rubbed me the wrong way.
568. 00:32:17 Yeah.
569. 00:32:18 I couldn't really articulate it well.
570. 00:32:20 But I went to the website, you know, so I'm jumping up and down on the stage.
571. 00:32:24 And I was just like, this guy seems not my style.
572. 00:32:30 So I said no.
573. 00:32:32 And then Zach at the time had gone and he really enjoyed it.
574. 00:32:36 Zach is extroverted though.
575. 00:32:37 So I mean, that makes sense.
576. 00:32:40 But he said, he gave me a lot of the details.
577. 00:32:43 He did the fire walk and all that stuff.
578. 00:32:46 Susan Cain defines it as like extra version on steroids, which is kind of the impression
579. 00:32:50 that I got, but I didn't really recognize enough to articulate it that way.
580. 00:32:55 But here in her described it, I was like, Oh yeah, definitely.
581. 00:32:58 That's exactly it.
582. 00:32:59 100% not me.
583. 00:33:00 Yeah.
584. 00:33:01 Right.
585. 00:33:02 So Tony is a freak though.
586. 00:33:05 He speaks from 8 a.m. to 11 p.m. with only one short bathroom break.
587. 00:33:11 That's nuts.
588. 00:33:13 You know, and Zach was telling me these stories like it's no surprise that his voice is gone.
589. 00:33:20 But you have to be wired.
590. 00:33:23 Like, I can't even wrap my head around that.
591. 00:33:25 You have to pretty much be the exact opposite of who I am in order for that to even be possible.
592. 00:33:33 And then couple that with the fact that like, there's all of these upsells that go with
593. 00:33:39 attending this conference.
594. 00:33:41 I'm not sure.
595. 00:33:42 I don't think she mentioned this, but I was aware of this because Zach told me about it.
596. 00:33:45 So it's like $895 just to go to the event, right?
597. 00:33:48 And then you sit way in the back in the top of the balcony and you can hardly even see
598. 00:33:54 Tony Robbins because there's 100,000 other people there.
599. 00:33:58 And then you can upgrade from there.
600. 00:34:01 One of the things is like date with Destiny.
601. 00:34:03 I think that's like $5,000.
602. 00:34:06 Another one is called Master University.
603. 00:34:07 That's $10,000.
604. 00:34:09 There's a platinum partnership they push, which is $45,000 where you can sit right in
605. 00:34:13 front, you know, and you can look Tony in the eye.
606. 00:34:17 And all of this stuff contributes to this negative reaction that I had.
607. 00:34:23 So I kind of get it, you know, but on one level, I totally get it.
608. 00:34:26 On the other level, I do feel kind of bad about it too because she describes in this
609. 00:34:31 book the Tony state of mind.
610. 00:34:33 Okay.
611. 00:34:34 And she mentions that he peers at least to have like this good heartedness.
612. 00:34:38 And he talks about like a superior mind, stuff like that, you know, I do think there's
613. 00:34:43 some truth to that and I do believe because I know a little bit of Tony Robbins story
614. 00:34:47 that he probably does authentically believe that he is making the most significant positive
615. 00:34:55 impact in the world that he can by doing it this way.
616. 00:34:59 But it still doesn't make me any more comfortable being.
617. 00:35:03 Right.
618. 00:35:04 Right.
619. 00:35:05 Yeah.
620. 00:35:06 I mean, I don't obviously I'm not a Tony Robbins fan, but I'm also not going to say
621. 00:35:09 it's not helpful either.
622. 00:35:12 Because I know there are a lot of people who go to his conferences and absolutely love
623. 00:35:16 it.
624. 00:35:17 Like yeah, more power to you if that's you go for it.
625. 00:35:19 Yeah.
626. 00:35:20 I don't think there's anything wrong with him as a person.
627. 00:35:23 There was a story that he told at the beginning of his money book.
628. 00:35:25 I'm not sure if you've read that one or not.
629. 00:35:27 But basically when he was growing up, he was poor and something that impacted him was one
630. 00:35:33 day somebody showed up, rang their doorbell and gave his family a Thanksgiving meal like
631. 00:35:37 right in the middle of his mom and dad arguing about where the food was going to come from.
632. 00:35:42 And that impacted him.
633. 00:35:43 So he said like the first however long I forget what the time period was for the money book
634. 00:35:49 though, he was going to donate a certain percentage of it to giving out Thanksgiving dinners.
635. 00:35:52 He gave away like 500,000 Thanksgiving dinners.
636. 00:35:54 Like he wants to pay it forward.
637. 00:35:56 So I do think that like he probably is a very sincere authentic guy, but just you see
638. 00:36:01 all the hoopla.
639. 00:36:02 And if you're not worried that way, you're just like, get me out of here.
640. 00:36:05 Right.
641. 00:36:06 Right.
642. 00:36:07 No, I think there's a lot of value in what he does.
643. 00:36:09 I'm just the wrong person for it.
644. 00:36:11 So I'm not the target market.
645. 00:36:13 Yeah, I'm aware of that.
646. 00:36:14 Totally cool that.
647. 00:36:15 But anyway, Tony Robbins is the example that she gives for this charismatic leadership
648. 00:36:21 concept, which when you start learning about CEOs and board of directors and you know that
649. 00:36:29 sort of level of corporate leadership and such, there's a lot of folks that are extreme
650. 00:36:36 extroverts and almost have to be given the climate that they have to operate within.
651. 00:36:42 So you know, it's definitely prominent within the business world for sure.
652. 00:36:48 Yeah, yeah, definitely.
653. 00:36:49 It's also prominent.
654. 00:36:51 She makes the case in evangelical Christianity, which I took a little bit of issue with this.
655. 00:36:57 I don't really like the comparison of Tony Robbins to Rick Warren.
656. 00:37:00 I get it on some level.
657. 00:37:03 Especially with some of those mega churches, we do not go to a mega church.
658. 00:37:08 Our church is like 150 people.
659. 00:37:10 Yeah.
660. 00:37:11 So perfect place for introverts like me, small, quiet.
661. 00:37:15 Well, if you come to one of our services, but not quiet, but sure.
662. 00:37:19 Anyways, so I didn't really like that, but I understand what she's saying.
663. 00:37:23 Like, there is with the whole Christian culture, there is a lot of emphasis on this extra
664. 00:37:31 version, and this kind of got me asking the question, you know, well, where is the line
665. 00:37:36 with being extroverted because this is held up as the extroverted ideal and this is something
666. 00:37:43 that I should be doing, not even necessarily with just like your religious belief system
667. 00:37:51 because there are certain things that you have to do depending on your certain, you know,
668. 00:37:58 however you choose to align those beliefs.
669. 00:38:01 Like there's rules and guidelines that you're expected to follow, but just in how you interact
670. 00:38:07 with other people, like the unwritten stuff, the kind of the expectations that aren't necessarily
671. 00:38:15 communicated explicitly.
672. 00:38:18 That really got me thinking is like, well, where can I say, oh, it's okay to be introverted
673. 00:38:23 versus where do I need to push myself a little bit because this is something that's valuable
674. 00:38:27 and I need to push myself outside my comfort zone.
675. 00:38:30 That makes sense.
676. 00:38:31 Yeah.
677. 00:38:32 No, it does.
678. 00:38:33 And I don't know.
679. 00:38:34 Well, she does have a whole chapter on that, but I think we'll get there.
680. 00:38:39 So put a pin in that one.
681. 00:38:41 Let's step into chapter three here when collaboration kills creativity.
682. 00:38:48 And this, this is, I remember reading this the first time through and thinking that group
683. 00:38:55 brainstorming was a horrendous idea.
684. 00:39:00 And I remember coming out of that and trying to find ways to get away from some of the group
685. 00:39:04 brainstorming things I was in, because at the time I was working in corporate America.
686. 00:39:09 So I actually managed to get some teams away from that, but it's been so long since I read
687. 00:39:14 it that I actually kind of slowly stepped back into some group brainstorming scenarios
688. 00:39:20 and even initiated a couple of them.
689. 00:39:22 And then I read this and thought, huh, why did I do that again?
690. 00:39:25 I knew better.
691. 00:39:27 Well, this is interesting.
692. 00:39:29 Okay.
693. 00:39:30 So before I share what I got out of this section, I'm curious, where did you end up on this?
694. 00:39:37 Like, what is your current belief regarding group brainstorming?
695. 00:39:41 Can it be done effectively or is it just always a bad idea?
696. 00:39:47 I kind of cut and I've done this, you know, about halfway through my readings here, where
697. 00:39:58 I kind of have this somewhat hybrid approach whenever I'm trying to come up with creativity
698. 00:40:04 in group settings where I try to have people come up with ideas individually and then we
699. 00:40:09 get together and talk about each of them and try to figure out are there others that we
700. 00:40:12 go through, which ones are good, which ones are bad, but trying to take advantage of both
701. 00:40:16 the quiet introspective side of it and then also the group setting of it.
702. 00:40:23 That's kind of what I try to do.
703. 00:40:24 And I feel like that's a pretty good balance on all of this, but I also know that a lot
704. 00:40:30 of my best ideas come when I'm mowing the lawn.
705. 00:40:33 Okay.
706. 00:40:34 Maybe that's because I'm an introvert.
707. 00:40:36 Maybe that's just the way it should work for me.
708. 00:40:39 I don't know, but I think it gets a little bit messy when you start mixing both types.
709. 00:40:43 Sure.
710. 00:40:44 Well, I'll just reference my initial results from the introversion quiz.
711. 00:40:50 I am solidly an introvert.
712. 00:40:54 But I also think that some of the best ideas that I slash we ever came up with, and I say
713. 00:41:03 we meaning like the groups that I was involved in, not you and I Joe, although maybe I'm
714. 00:41:07 not sure.
715. 00:41:08 Yeah.
716. 00:41:09 Came from this group brainstorming.
717. 00:41:12 So this chapter really forced me to think through this and question not only what she
718. 00:41:22 shares here, but also my past experiences and try to dissect it.
719. 00:41:27 Why did I have such positive results before?
720. 00:41:32 One of the things I enjoyed the most about working with the Asian efficiency team was
721. 00:41:38 when we would do the quarterly planning sessions and everything about that traveling to Texas
722. 00:41:46 to do them, I hated except for the group brainstorming.
723. 00:41:51 Like whether it was tan myself and Zach or later tan myself in Brooks, you know, we lock
724. 00:41:56 ourselves in a room and okay, what are we going to do this quarter?
725. 00:41:58 We're kicking around ideas.
726. 00:42:00 That was always the thing that I absolutely loved to do.
727. 00:42:06 Something else, I'm like, just let me go back to my room and sleep.
728. 00:42:08 Like I'm completely drained by being around other people all day every day.
729. 00:42:13 But when we started brainstorming, I got energy.
730. 00:42:18 In fact, at one point, I was staying with Zach, one of those trips and it extended beyond
731. 00:42:27 the session.
732. 00:42:29 You know, we talked about stuff through dinner and then Zach and I went back to his place
733. 00:42:32 and we were still talking about stuff.
734. 00:42:34 And Zach, the extroverted person, is like, you know what, Mike, I just, I don't have
735. 00:42:39 any, I can't think about this anymore.
736. 00:42:40 I'm so drained.
737. 00:42:42 Like, I just got to go to bed, you know, and I'm, I'm so there.
738. 00:42:45 The introvert, right?
739. 00:42:46 Who doesn't like being around people who like their brain can't stop, can't stop running
740. 00:42:51 now.
741. 00:42:52 And I've noticed through those, those experiences that the first idea was never the good one.
742. 00:42:59 But it was the iterations off of that that ended up being the thing that was really hitting
743. 00:43:05 the mark.
744. 00:43:06 And so I kind of think that my vision for group brainstorming here is a little bit different
745. 00:43:12 than what she highlights in like Alex Osborne's four rules of brainstorming.
746. 00:43:16 Number one, don't judge or criticize ideas.
747. 00:43:19 Number two, be freewheeling the wilder the idea the better.
748. 00:43:22 Number three, go for quantity.
749. 00:43:23 The more ideas you have, the better number four, build on the ideas of fellow group members.
750. 00:43:27 I agree with all that stuff, but I kind of think like what made it work for us was that
751. 00:43:30 we spent a lot of time on number four.
752. 00:43:32 So we, we spend a little bit of time getting a whole bunch of random ideas.
753. 00:43:35 And then once we decided like, this is kind of the direction that we want to go, that's
754. 00:43:39 what we really just focused on iterating on that stuff.
755. 00:43:43 And that's where a lot of the connection of the dots came in my opinion.
756. 00:43:47 And I could be totally wrong, but I think that's totally different than kind of the group brainstorming
757. 00:43:53 she's describing here, because this is a derivative of what she calls the new group think and
758. 00:43:58 the whole discussion of like, uh, uh, introversion and creativity, like the, the, uh, open office
759. 00:44:04 plans, like all that type of stuff, like it, I agree with her points on there, but that
760. 00:44:08 term group brainstorming, I guess I've got a little bit different definition of, of what
761. 00:44:12 that looks like.
762. 00:44:13 Maybe how many people were in that group?
763. 00:44:15 Not a lot.
764. 00:44:16 Three or four.
765. 00:44:17 Cause I, like whenever I think a group brainstorming, I'm thinking 10 to 12.
766. 00:44:21 Yeah.
767. 00:44:22 That's, that's a very good point.
768. 00:44:23 I, I didn't get that when I read the book.
769. 00:44:25 Maybe I just missed that description, but yeah, that would totally change the, the situation.
770. 00:44:29 Yeah.
771. 00:44:30 Cause that's, that's where I run into it.
772. 00:44:32 Like if you're talking three people, like, I, I think that's definitely true, especially
773. 00:44:37 if they're all trusted friends.
774. 00:44:38 You know, that's, that's a scenario where I could sit down and have a good, you know,
775. 00:44:43 thought process, cause I tend to ideate on the fly, you know, people who talk to me,
776. 00:44:49 you and I've done this mic where we're talking about a, a potential project and I just run
777. 00:44:55 with ideas all the time.
778. 00:44:56 I, I, I, a lot of people who are super close to me tend to say, you gotta pick something
779. 00:45:02 Joe, like quick, quick coming up with new ideas.
780. 00:45:05 Like that's, that's my thing.
781. 00:45:07 But if I'm in big groups, like you get five people in that room or more, that's not really
782. 00:45:13 a big group even you get five people or more in that group.
783. 00:45:16 And I tend to not do that.
784. 00:45:18 It doesn't happen as well.
785. 00:45:21 I'm better off coming up with those ideas on my own and then sharing them in the group.
786. 00:45:25 Sure.
787. 00:45:26 Then I am coming up with them on the fly.
788. 00:45:27 But yeah, if it's three and four people, yeah, I can do that in the moment and love doing
789. 00:45:33 it.
790. 00:45:34 But I don't think that's big enough to qualify what she's calling group brainstorming.
791. 00:45:37 Gotcha.
792. 00:45:38 Yeah.
793. 00:45:39 That makes, that makes total sense.
794. 00:45:41 I do think it's an important distinction though, like where you draw that line because maybe
795. 00:45:48 it's three, maybe it's five.
796. 00:45:50 I don't know where it is.
797. 00:45:51 Maybe it's different for every person, but kind of a main idea she talks about here,
798. 00:45:57 which I do think there's truth to this is the whole section on introversion and creativity
799. 00:46:02 where introverts prefer to work independently.
800. 00:46:04 Solitude can be a catalyst of innovation.
801. 00:46:07 It's an important key to creativity.
802. 00:46:09 Like I totally believe in all of that.
803. 00:46:12 That's kind of the central tenet of my personal retreat course.
804. 00:46:14 Yeah.
805. 00:46:15 You got to get away by yourself.
806. 00:46:17 But from a perspective of getting ideas in terms of brainstorming, maybe that's the thing
807. 00:46:23 is like, well, what does brainstorming even mean?
808. 00:46:26 Right.
809. 00:46:27 Is it like we're just going to get a bunch of random spaghetti and chuck it against the
810. 00:46:31 wall?
811. 00:46:32 Yeah.
812. 00:46:33 Or are we going to develop that further?
813. 00:46:35 So I don't know, I feel like there's a lot of definition missing from this particular
814. 00:46:39 chapter, but totally agree with what she talks about with the group think and how this
815. 00:46:43 is kind of like what's expected in schools and even outside of school.
816. 00:46:48 The goal of group learning is to get kids to take ownership of their learning, help
817. 00:46:52 them develop the skills that need in corporate America.
818. 00:46:54 My big question regarding that is where are the soft skills?
819. 00:46:59 Extroversion isn't necessarily a soft skill.
820. 00:47:01 Assertion is, but we'll talk about emotional intelligence a little bit later too, but I
821. 00:47:06 don't know.
822. 00:47:07 I feel like the whole goal of group learning with this new group think is obviously missing
823. 00:47:13 a very key piece.
824. 00:47:16 And I don't know.
825. 00:47:18 There's a lot of gray area with this though, which is kind of what makes this whole topic
826. 00:47:21 so fascinating.
827. 00:47:22 It's like even me, a total introvert, a lot of what I do is extroverted.
828. 00:47:25 I'm talking in a microphone right now.
829. 00:47:28 This is something that terrified me a couple years ago.
830. 00:47:30 This was extroverted for me.
831. 00:47:32 So I don't know.
832. 00:47:34 And now it's normal.
833. 00:47:35 That's normal.
834. 00:47:36 Yep, I've made it normal.
835. 00:47:39 So this takes us into part two.
836. 00:47:42 So the first part is about the extrovert ideal.
837. 00:47:45 Second part is your biology yourself.
838. 00:47:48 So this gets into some of the science of what actually makes an introvert versus an
839. 00:47:55 extrovert.
840. 00:47:56 Mm-hmm.
841. 00:47:57 And how does that express itself?
842. 00:48:00 Is that a fair assessment, Mike?
843. 00:48:01 Yeah.
844. 00:48:02 Is temperament your destiny?
845. 00:48:04 Chapter four really is talking about the temperament versus personality, whereas she
846. 00:48:12 defines temperament as "emborn biologically based behavioral and emotional patterns that
847. 00:48:16 are observable in infancy and early childhood."
848. 00:48:19 Personality though is the complex brew that emerges after cultural influence and personal
849. 00:48:23 experience are thrown into the mix.
850. 00:48:25 So it's nature versus nurture.
851. 00:48:27 Yeah.
852. 00:48:28 It's a combination of both of them really, which is why this stuff is so tricky and why
853. 00:48:35 there's no formula you can use.
854. 00:48:38 I'll just talk about parenting.
855. 00:48:39 You know, there's no formula you can use like this is the right thing to do with this
856. 00:48:43 kid because every single one of them is going to be different.
857. 00:48:47 And the right thing at the wrong time is the wrong thing.
858. 00:48:50 A big section in here though, which is really interesting to me is this whole discussion
859. 00:48:55 of the amygdala, I may be saying that word wrong.
860. 00:48:59 No, you got it.
861. 00:49:00 Okay.
862. 00:49:01 This is the emotional brain and it controls your appetite, your sex drive fear, and it's
863. 00:49:06 what triggers the fight versus flight response.
864. 00:49:09 Okay.
865. 00:49:10 So fight versus flight, you look at that and you could say, well, that's extrovert versus
866. 00:49:14 introvert.
867. 00:49:15 The problem is this whole idea of emotional intelligence, which when you develop this,
868. 00:49:21 eliminates or at least curbs the fight versus flight response because it enables you to
869. 00:49:27 respond in a way that's appropriate for the situation.
870. 00:49:30 So this is kind of the point in the book where I was starting to get that.
871. 00:49:33 Okay.
872. 00:49:34 So it's not just as simple as it's okay to be introverted.
873. 00:49:37 You got to learn to balance these things and activate it when you need to, but there's
874. 00:49:41 obviously a whole lot more to this, which we're going to unpack in some of the other
875. 00:49:44 chapters.
876. 00:49:45 Like you have to recognize that when you are an introvert and you have to extrovert,
877. 00:49:49 you're very, very likely that that's going to be more draining.
878. 00:49:51 So you got to give yourself time to recharge and all that type of stuff.
879. 00:49:53 But at all bottom line here, page 107, she says, every behavior has more than one cause.
880. 00:49:59 That's a quote from Jerome Kagan.
881. 00:50:02 And this is a really important idea for anyone who likes to read these books like we do.
882. 00:50:09 There's so much going on here that you have to recognize that this isn't just blanket,
883. 00:50:16 why this stuff to your own life, you've got to kind of deconstruct this and tinker with
884. 00:50:20 it and figure out this thing right here may work for me.
885. 00:50:23 And that thing over there may not.
886. 00:50:26 And then if you can figure out what levers you can pull, ultimately, that's what we're
887. 00:50:31 trying to do with the podcast like this is man, I painted myself in a corner by coming
888. 00:50:37 against that build a better use statement.
889. 00:50:39 Like, cause that on one level, that is what we want to do.
890. 00:50:44 But ultimately, like I said, your value as a person isn't determined by what skills you
891. 00:50:49 possess.
892. 00:50:50 Maybe your market value is, you know, Cal Newport would make that argument.
893. 00:50:54 But we want to make what we consider positive changes and every situation is going to be
894. 00:51:01 different, which is why like we read these books and we pick and choose the individual
895. 00:51:06 things from them.
896. 00:51:08 My personal goal whenever I read a book is to grab at least one thing that I can apply.
897. 00:51:13 You know, I may recognize right at the beginning that this author and I have nothing in common.
898. 00:51:18 Case in point Amanda Palmer.
899. 00:51:20 Okay.
900. 00:51:21 But I'm going to grab one thing out of here that I'm going to apply and I'm going to
901. 00:51:25 be different and I'm going to, in it, what I consider to be a positive way.
902. 00:51:29 I know that one of these big things that Susan Caine points out in this chapter is the emotional
903. 00:51:34 intelligence piece.
904. 00:51:36 Um, you kind of have to just be aware that you have certain tendencies, but you can step
905. 00:51:45 outside of them.
906. 00:51:46 Yep.
907. 00:51:47 Like I have had tell, I've had people tell me that they think I'm extroverted, which
908. 00:51:52 is weird to me.
909. 00:51:54 Like that's so far from the truth.
910. 00:51:57 My idea of a relaxing weekend is like sitting in the mountains with a book for the whole
911. 00:52:03 weekend.
912. 00:52:04 Like, no.
913. 00:52:05 I am not extroverted, not even close.
914. 00:52:07 Yeah.
915. 00:52:08 But in some certain, like in certain scenarios, like I can get excited and energized by groups
916. 00:52:15 of people.
917. 00:52:16 It does happen.
918. 00:52:18 So it can come out in different areas.
919. 00:52:20 That's why this is muddy waters.
920. 00:52:21 Like it's not yes or no universal.
921. 00:52:25 There are times when things flex to and from both of these, even though like a lot of it
922. 00:52:31 comes down to is which is your under like the overarching tendency across all this.
923. 00:52:38 That's where a lot of it comes in.
924. 00:52:40 Yeah.
925. 00:52:41 Well, we'll get into emotional intelligence more in a little bit.
926. 00:52:45 Spoiler alert for upcoming books.
927. 00:52:49 But one of the things from that is interpersonal awareness.
928. 00:52:52 So that's kind of like awareness of what's going on in a social situation between you
929. 00:52:56 and somebody else and in truck personal awareness, which is recognizing what's going
930. 00:53:01 on inside of your brain.
931. 00:53:03 And I think any social situation you have to develop both of those skills in order to
932. 00:53:09 get an accurate read on the competing forces and then introverted or extroverted, it doesn't
933. 00:53:15 really matter.
934. 00:53:16 You're constantly trying to balance those things, but what you want and what other people want.
935. 00:53:22 And so that's kind of, if I were to put this in a nutshell, you know, that's really
936. 00:53:26 what this whole book is about is figuring out where is the line there.
937. 00:53:32 So chapter five, we're going to kind of skip over here, but it's about beyond temperament.
938. 00:53:37 Basically what you're getting into there is kind of what we're talking about is how do
939. 00:53:42 you step outside of things that you may have been born with.
940. 00:53:46 Yep.
941. 00:53:47 And again, she's going into a lot of science on a lot of this.
942. 00:53:49 So it's more around, you know, what can you do even if you have certain tendencies?
943. 00:53:55 That's a lot of what it's about.
944. 00:53:56 Yeah.
945. 00:53:57 In this section, she talks about the prefrontal cortex, which is part of the brain that interacts
946. 00:54:04 with the amygdala.
947. 00:54:06 And I actually did some research on this and presented a section in my goal setting workshop
948. 00:54:13 presentation that I did at the beginning of the year, which kind of talked about this
949. 00:54:18 because the amygdala is the emotional brain.
950. 00:54:22 The prefrontal cortex is the intellectual brain, I guess.
951. 00:54:26 It helps you overcome those emotional responses.
952. 00:54:29 So those responses are still there in the amygdala, but when you develop your prefrontal
953. 00:54:34 cortex, it allows you to suppress those instincts and fight back against the fight versus flight.
954. 00:54:40 The problem is that part of the message is always going to go straight to the amygdala
955. 00:54:44 and not get filtered through the prefrontal cortex.
956. 00:54:46 So when that happens, it results in something called emotional hijacking.
957. 00:54:50 So again, emotional intelligence has a big role in how introverts and extroverts respond
958. 00:54:56 to this different stuff.
959. 00:54:57 But I found this part pretty fascinating.
960. 00:55:00 Another section, real briefly, I want to talk about here, what she talked about, her
961. 00:55:03 experience with the speaking social anxiety center in New York.
962. 00:55:07 And to me, that sounded a lot like my Toastmasters group because a lot of people that are there
963. 00:55:13 because they recognize that they are terrified of speaking in front of people.
964. 00:55:17 And so they're just going to do it in front of a supportive group and they're going to
965. 00:55:20 do that enough.
966. 00:55:21 They're going to normalize it so that it's not scary eventually.
967. 00:55:24 In fact, in Toastmasters, the first assignment they give you is something that's designed
968. 00:55:29 to be super, super easy.
969. 00:55:30 It's called the icebreaker.
970. 00:55:32 You just get up and you talk about yourself and your story.
971. 00:55:34 It's the easiest, supposedly the easiest thing you can talk about is yourself.
972. 00:55:39 But this got me thinking because we mentioned podcasting before and how this was something
973. 00:55:44 that was scary for me.
974. 00:55:46 Do you think podcasting is a version of this speaking social anxiety center where we try
975. 00:55:52 to normalize and become extroverted for introverts like you myself because people can't see us?
976. 00:55:59 Maybe because she did talk about how introverts will have a tendency to write blogs online.
977. 00:56:06 Yeah.
978. 00:56:07 But they would never talk about the things that they write about to a group of people.
979. 00:56:12 Never.
980. 00:56:13 But they'll publish it on their blog where millions of people read it.
981. 00:56:15 Right.
982. 00:56:16 So I think podcasting maybe is the next level of that word.
983. 00:56:20 Well, it's a little bit more out there, but it's still pretty safe.
984. 00:56:23 Yeah.
985. 00:56:24 Because I mean, especially in this case, it's just you and me.
986. 00:56:27 So the number of times that I forget that, oh yeah, this is being recorded.
987. 00:56:31 Okay.
988. 00:56:32 So maybe I should watch my words a little more.
989. 00:56:34 I don't know.
990. 00:56:35 That may change if we decide to do live recordings for the book or premium club members.
991. 00:56:42 No promises.
992. 00:56:43 So yes, I think there's maybe an element of that.
993. 00:56:46 I don't know how much of an element of that because it does still feel like just we're
994. 00:56:50 having a chat.
995. 00:56:52 But I do think it is it's more than writing.
996. 00:56:57 So maybe it's a step between you.
997. 00:56:59 Yeah.
998. 00:57:00 I kind of think it is just based on a lot of the folks that I know that have gotten into
999. 00:57:06 podcasting.
1000. 00:57:07 Not everybody, obviously, who is a podcast host is introverted.
1001. 00:57:10 And I would argue probably the people who've been doing it the longest are naturally extroverted.
1002. 00:57:15 But I do think there is some truth to introverts like myself who kind of sit back and watch
1003. 00:57:19 things happen.
1004. 00:57:21 And then they're like, hmm, I think maybe I could do that.
1005. 00:57:25 Yeah.
1006. 00:57:26 So you dip your toe in the water and you're like, hey, that was actually kind of fun.
1007. 00:57:30 Yeah.
1008. 00:57:31 For sure.
1009. 00:57:32 Like I do see a lot of people who maybe have kind of been dragon there, their heels with
1010. 00:57:37 starting a podcast.
1011. 00:57:39 And maybe it's because they're introverts like we are.
1012. 00:57:43 Could be.
1013. 00:57:44 Could be.
1014. 00:57:45 Stepping into chapter six, Franklin was a politician, but Eleanor spoke out of conscience.
1015. 00:57:51 Now we're talking about Franklin Roosevelt and Eleanor Roosevelt.
1016. 00:57:56 And this is the point of the book where I start to not like the chapter title.
1017. 00:58:00 Sure.
1018. 00:58:02 The difference.
1019. 00:58:03 So here's a classic example.
1020. 00:58:05 Franklin was an extrovert.
1021. 00:58:06 And or was an introvert and Franklin was good about getting parties put together and, you
1022. 00:58:13 know, doing the political thing, communicating with people, talking to big groups, getting
1023. 00:58:18 people fired up, et cetera, et cetera.
1024. 00:58:21 Eleanor had a tendency to do things on her own, but she also would go do things out of
1025. 00:58:26 conviction, like helping poor people or going into rough areas and volunteering.
1026. 00:58:31 And she did a lot of that and then she would speak to Franklin and tell him the things
1027. 00:58:37 that she saw and the things that were convicting to her and then he would act on them.
1028. 00:58:43 So the two ended up creating a really great pair as a result.
1029. 00:58:47 And there's all kinds of backstory that goes with all of that, of course.
1030. 00:58:51 But it was fascinating that, you know, Eleanor is going through this process of understanding
1031. 00:58:55 the detail because that's the strengths that she has as an introvert.
1032. 00:58:59 And then Franklin acted on it and had the power to do things about that later on.
1033. 00:59:05 So I don't know.
1034. 00:59:06 I thought that pairing was really cool.
1035. 00:59:07 I'd never really heard those stories about them.
1036. 00:59:09 So I did appreciate that.
1037. 00:59:11 Yeah, until she found the love letters to the secretary in his suitcase.
1038. 00:59:14 Yeah, there's that too.
1039. 00:59:17 Yeah.
1040. 00:59:18 No, it, I think that that part in particular was really interesting to me because it shows
1041. 00:59:24 how opposites can attract, but then essentially what had happened was Franklin wanted somebody
1042. 00:59:31 more extroverted in the long run is kind of what it came down to.
1043. 00:59:35 And then at that point, Eleanor decided to stay with him just because in all the other
1044. 00:59:41 arenas where they were active, they were a powerful pairing, which I'm not sure I would
1045. 00:59:48 be able to stick with that, but she did.
1046. 00:59:52 And you're right, they were kind of polar opposites from each other and they did work
1047. 00:59:57 really well together in like these political arenas.
1048. 01:00:01 One of the things that I really liked about Eleanor was the, the story they told about
1049. 01:00:07 how she essentially got at the beginning, the story about how she got the person to get
1050. 01:00:13 up and speak at the monument and how she had this empathy towards all of these people.
1051. 01:00:21 And she saw the struggle that people were going through and she could identify with it.
1052. 01:00:28 That really spoke to me.
1053. 01:00:29 I think that that's something that I strive to have in my, my own life is to kind of see
1054. 01:00:36 the people who are to the rest of the world invisible and make an impact in their life.
1055. 01:00:45 It's tricky.
1056. 01:00:48 Number one, when you, it's easy to look past people on the periphery, especially if you're
1057. 01:00:54 in a certain situation, social circle, whatever, like going outside of that can be uncomfortable,
1058. 01:01:00 especially for an introvert.
1059. 01:01:01 Maybe that's why, you know, I kind of ascribed to this is because that's something that I
1060. 01:01:06 believe that I should be doing, but it's kind of against my natural wiring.
1061. 01:01:11 But I do take a lot of, I don't want to say pride.
1062. 01:01:15 I'm not sure what the word is I'm looking for here.
1063. 01:01:18 I take a, I take a lot of pleasure maybe from being able to help other people, even if it's
1064. 01:01:26 something super small.
1065. 01:01:29 Like that really makes me feel good.
1066. 01:01:30 And I'm reading this chapter.
1067. 01:01:32 I recognize that, that sensitivity that is coupled a lot of times with introversion.
1068. 01:01:40 Also based on the research that Dr. Elaine Aron did, they found 27 different attributes
1069. 01:01:47 that they share in the book.
1070. 01:01:48 But one of the things that really jumped out to me was that introverts don't like talking
1071. 01:01:52 about superficial things.
1072. 01:01:54 This is me to a T to the point where if I am now in a social situation, like there's
1073. 01:02:01 a whole bunch of us who are going out to dinner and there's 20 different people there, I
1074. 01:02:05 will get angry if everybody is just talking about stupid superficial stuff like the weather.
1075. 01:02:11 I'll, I'll talk to the person next to me and be like, okay, so what did you think of
1076. 01:02:15 that speaker's point?
1077. 01:02:16 Kind of what we do on bookworm.
1078. 01:02:18 Like I do that in real life because the superficial stuff.
1079. 01:02:22 Just superficial stuff.
1080. 01:02:23 The next time we get together, totally going to do it.
1081. 01:02:25 Yeah, probably everybody who's using a next stock is going to do that.
1082. 01:02:28 But I never identified that as an introverted trait.
1083. 01:02:33 But you know, as, as she was describing that, I'm like, oh, yeah, that's definitely something
1084. 01:02:37 that I do.
1085. 01:02:39 One of those attributes was being highly sensitive.
1086. 01:02:43 And sensitivity in the sense of noticing a lot of detail, not necessarily sensitive to
1087. 01:02:49 emotions and stuff, which is definitely a piece of that.
1088. 01:02:52 But also just being hyper aware of what's going on.
1089. 01:02:56 Yeah.
1090. 01:02:57 And I don't know if you're aware of this mic, but I actually had a client with my web business
1091. 01:03:03 around this HSP world as they call it, highly sensitive people.
1092. 01:03:08 Apparently that's all thing and there are all kinds of quizzes and stuff you can take
1093. 01:03:11 on it.
1094. 01:03:12 I took it, but I took that quiz as part of that project and I ranked in like the top 1%,
1095. 01:03:19 one, what is it?
1096. 01:03:20 What do they call it?
1097. 01:03:21 The 99th percentile of falling into this HSP category.
1098. 01:03:26 Wow.
1099. 01:03:27 It was ridiculously high and that, that taught me a lot because I like, for example, I run
1100. 01:03:33 sound at our church.
1101. 01:03:36 It's a pretty intense system.
1102. 01:03:38 It's, yeah, it's elaborate.
1103. 01:03:40 In order to run that really well, you have to pay attention to a lot, a lot of detail
1104. 01:03:44 and kind of predict what's getting ready to happen before it happens.
1105. 01:03:49 And it's something I'm pretty good at because I have a tendency to notice, like I notice
1106. 01:03:54 out of the corner of my eye when someone's moving in such a way that they might be getting
1107. 01:03:59 up to go to the stage.
1108. 01:04:00 So then I know which microphones need to be ready for them.
1109. 01:04:02 Just by the way, they shifted in their chair.
1110. 01:04:05 Interesting.
1111. 01:04:06 I notice these things.
1112. 01:04:07 I don't always act on what I see and what I notice because to some people it's kind of
1113. 01:04:13 strange and a little bit creepy sometimes.
1114. 01:04:16 So a lot of times I just keep it to myself and I don't let on, but I notice way more than
1115. 01:04:22 I ever should.
1116. 01:04:23 And I never really connected, you know, kind of like what you're saying.
1117. 01:04:26 I hadn't really connected that to introversion, but she does call out that people who have
1118. 01:04:32 this sensitivity trait vastly fall into the introvert category as well.
1119. 01:04:38 Like those two are very closely correlated.
1120. 01:04:40 Not 100%.
1121. 01:04:41 There are extroverts that fall into that category, but the vast majority fall into the introvert
1122. 01:04:45 category.
1123. 01:04:46 Yeah.
1124. 01:04:47 Sorry if that creeps you out.
1125. 01:04:49 No, I think it's fascinating.
1126. 01:04:51 And I think that it's a strength in certain situations.
1127. 01:04:55 Like you said, there's a lot of people who like they would miss that stuff and then the
1128. 01:05:00 microphone's not ready and they're annoyed because the microphone's not ready.
1129. 01:05:04 You would never ascribe to a sound guy being good at his job to be introverted.
1130. 01:05:10 But that makes total sense to me.
1131. 01:05:12 That's kind of cool actually.
1132. 01:05:15 Another thing that's surprising from this section though is the authors who's in Cane
1133. 01:05:18 she took a lie detector test and the lie detector test it's basically a skin conductance test.
1134. 01:05:28 So it's measuring certain biological or physiological things that are happening in your body as they
1135. 01:05:38 ask you questions.
1136. 01:05:39 And she describes this situation perfectly.
1137. 01:05:42 This is totally what I've thought.
1138. 01:05:43 I never could back it up.
1139. 01:05:45 It's like if I was in that situation, there is no way I would be able to pass this thing.
1140. 01:05:51 Even if I was telling the truth.
1141. 01:05:53 She said she took this test and the person asked her if she had ever used cocaine.
1142. 01:05:58 And she never had used cocaine.
1143. 01:06:00 But he asked the question and then he's like staring right in her face.
1144. 01:06:03 She's like right in front of her.
1145. 01:06:06 That's causing the response in the lie detector test to say that she's lying.
1146. 01:06:11 So that was kind of interesting.
1147. 01:06:14 Yeah.
1148. 01:06:17 I had to take a lie detector test not too long ago.
1149. 01:06:20 I can't really say why, but I did.
1150. 01:06:23 And as part of that, I learned that I have been yelled at enough face to face that I
1151. 01:06:30 tend to not react.
1152. 01:06:32 Oh wow.
1153. 01:06:33 In these scenarios.
1154. 01:06:34 So they actually had a problem with it because they had me tell a deliberate lie and they
1155. 01:06:40 couldn't detect it.
1156. 01:06:42 And okay, this is kind of creepy.
1157. 01:06:46 This is like I don't know what to tell you like I'm just I don't know.
1158. 01:06:51 I don't know.
1159. 01:06:52 It's weird.
1160. 01:06:53 I don't know why that is.
1161. 01:06:54 But it was odd.
1162. 01:06:56 So I think it had what they asked me was do I get in?
1163. 01:07:00 How do they put it stressful situations?
1164. 01:07:03 Frequently and I told them no because in my mind, I don't.
1165. 01:07:08 I'm pretty picky about withholding those, but then they started asking me like what
1166. 01:07:11 goes like what is my job?
1167. 01:07:13 How does it operate?
1168. 01:07:14 And then I mentioned something about clients who are upset about things that they should
1169. 01:07:20 not be upset about.
1170. 01:07:21 And they're like, Oh, that's exactly what we mean.
1171. 01:07:23 You're like, okay.
1172. 01:07:24 So this test won't work for you.
1173. 01:07:26 Oh, okay.
1174. 01:07:28 So something about that, maybe if if someone's listening to this and they know how all that
1175. 01:07:32 stuff works in a lot of detail, I'd love to know why in that scenario, but they ended
1176. 01:07:36 up just dropping the test after all that.
1177. 01:07:39 But that's funny.
1178. 01:07:40 Anyway, chapter seven.
1179. 01:07:43 Why did Wall Street crash and Warren Buffett prosper?
1180. 01:07:46 Basically she goes through the scenario of talking about how extra version led people
1181. 01:07:53 who are risk takers.
1182. 01:07:56 Those two go hand in hand.
1183. 01:07:57 Risk taking is an attribute of extra version.
1184. 01:08:00 Risk taking in quite a few scenarios leading up to the 2008 Wall Street crash.
1185. 01:08:07 If you were an extrovert and you took big risks, you profited significantly because the bigger
1186. 01:08:11 the risk you took, the better off things paid.
1187. 01:08:14 Well, that flips on its head when there's massive numbers of risky loans out there and
1188. 01:08:23 banks can't cover them and things tend to fall apart.
1189. 01:08:28 Thus situations where you've got groups like Bridgewater or I think Berkshire didn't really
1190. 01:08:36 get into the 2008 crash itself.
1191. 01:08:38 But those particular certain groups profited in that scenario because they saw that there
1192. 01:08:42 was a problem because they didn't subscribe to the risk taking scenario and they had people
1193. 01:08:48 who would step away from that and sound warning bells.
1194. 01:08:53 Warren Buffett was one who did that with the dot com bust.
1195. 01:08:57 He saw that coming and predicted it and made quite a bit of money off of it.
1196. 01:09:02 That whole scenario does happen, but a lot of those happen in the stock markets as a
1197. 01:09:07 result of people being willing to sound the warning signals and disagree with the masses.
1198. 01:09:14 If you follow along with the masses, guess what happens in the stock markets?
1199. 01:09:18 Dollars disappear into thin air.
1200. 01:09:23 The root of this is a term called reward sensitivity.
1201. 01:09:27 Extroverts tend to seek the reward.
1202. 01:09:31 She mentions that their dopamine pathways appear to be more active than introverts, which
1203. 01:09:37 dopamine is the pleasure chemical.
1204. 01:09:40 That was interesting to me because of the whole idea of neuroplasticity and how your
1205. 01:09:45 brain can change.
1206. 01:09:47 Next question is then, do I have the ability to change from an introvert to an extrovert
1207. 01:09:54 or vice versa simply because of how my brain develops?
1208. 01:09:59 I'm not sure where I land on that yet, but the other interesting thing here is the whole
1209. 01:10:05 section on flow, which there's Mahali again.
1210. 01:10:09 Hi, Mahali.
1211. 01:10:11 It mentions that flow works when you pursue the activity for the sake of the activity,
1212. 01:10:14 not the reward.
1213. 01:10:16 Flow happens in what she describes as introverted autonomy.
1214. 01:10:20 Introverts can find flow by focusing on their gifts, problem solving, etc.
1215. 01:10:26 As an introvert makes me feel really good, but I think maybe there's a little bit more
1216. 01:10:33 to it than that.
1217. 01:10:34 If I add an advantage from a flow perspective simply because I'm an introvert, I don't
1218. 01:10:41 know.
1219. 01:10:42 I kind of think maybe not as much as this chapter would have me to believe, although
1220. 01:10:47 there are certain things that allowed warm buffet to be successful when everybody else
1221. 01:10:52 is like, "Oh, no, this is fine.
1222. 01:10:54 He's able to recognize a situation for what's really going on because of some you might define
1223. 01:11:01 them as introverted traits like intellectual persistence, prudent thinking, ability to
1224. 01:11:05 see an act on those different warning signs."
1225. 01:11:08 I don't know.
1226. 01:11:09 I think there's a lot of value in looking at this from a historical perspective where
1227. 01:11:13 this is what happened in the stock market and the extroverted ideal was the thing that
1228. 01:11:19 led to a lot of these people being really successful, but the people who are successful
1229. 01:11:22 in the long run were able to overcome that and act more along lines of an introvert.
1230. 01:11:27 But I'm not 100% sure that translates real cleanly to, "Okay, this is how you do this
1231. 01:11:32 going forward."
1232. 01:11:33 Right.
1233. 01:11:34 No, I think there's that whole scenario.
1234. 01:11:37 There's a lot of nuance with it, but I can't argue that it at least has...
1235. 01:11:43 It's one of the factors, I think, is what I would argue.
1236. 01:11:46 Yep.
1237. 01:11:47 Which is really the entire book.
1238. 01:11:50 Yeah.
1239. 01:11:51 It's one of the factors.
1240. 01:11:53 Yep.
1241. 01:11:54 Part three, do all cultures have an extrovert ideal?
1242. 01:12:00 The one chapter in here is soft power.
1243. 01:12:02 You want to talk about this one quick?
1244. 01:12:04 Sure.
1245. 01:12:05 Well, the story here is about a high school, Monte Vista High School in Cupertino, which
1246. 01:12:12 Cupertino, that's where Apple is located.
1247. 01:12:15 This high school is interesting because the jocks don't hold any of the power there because
1248. 01:12:20 the student body is so academically oriented.
1249. 01:12:25 They did a demographic of the school and found out the majority of the students, 77%,
1250. 01:12:31 are Asian American who typically study, they do well, and they don't create waves.
1251. 01:12:36 They are introverted, especially when compared against the European American extroverted
1252. 01:12:42 ideal.
1253. 01:12:43 They kind of break down the different attributes of Asian American versus European American,
1254. 01:12:47 whereas Asian American tend to be humble, altruistic, honest, have moral virtues, achievement,
1255. 01:12:52 they focus on the team.
1256. 01:12:54 European American tend to be cheerful, enthusiastic, sociable.
1257. 01:12:57 The emphasis there is on the individual.
1258. 01:13:02 This whole idea of soft power is kind of like, okay, so these people who are introverted,
1259. 01:13:09 who in this case, talking about different countries and different cultures and extroverted
1260. 01:13:17 ideal versus, I would argue, maybe an introverted ideal, how can you take advantage of that
1261. 01:13:23 introverted ideal and they give a couple historical examples of this.
1262. 01:13:28 One of the more popular ones was Gandhi.
1263. 01:13:31 Soft power is kind of the idea of embracing this thing, the introverted ideal.
1264. 01:13:38 That's a terrible term, but that's what I'm going to use for now because I don't have
1265. 01:13:42 anything else.
1266. 01:13:44 The cultures that emphasize that they are able to understand more quickly what they are capable
1267. 01:13:51 of and the kind of changes they are capable of influencing, not through being loud or
1268. 01:13:57 boisterous or what most people would think of as powerful because it's not aggressive.
1269. 01:14:04 But soft power, this is a different type of strength.
1270. 01:14:08 It can be very determined.
1271. 01:14:10 It also typically has to be very skillful, requires persistence, but Gandhi is kind of
1272. 01:14:18 the poster child for this where no one would argue that Gandhi was weak, but he definitely
1273. 01:14:25 wasn't an extrovert either.
1274. 01:14:26 He just kind of consistently held the line for what he believed and over time, people
1275. 01:14:31 ascribed great strength to his story, his situation.
1276. 01:14:36 I would say over time, the legend of Gandhi has grown, if that makes sense.
1277. 01:14:42 At the time when it was going on, maybe it wasn't that big a deal to everybody else around
1278. 01:14:46 him because they were too extroverted and loud to even recognize what was actually happening.
1279. 01:14:51 But the more distance that you get from the situation, the more you recognize the impact
1280. 01:14:55 of what he actually did.
1281. 01:14:56 Yes.
1282. 01:14:57 I think that's what she's getting at here is that because he was not necessarily passive,
1283. 01:15:05 because that was a key distinction that she called out.
1284. 01:15:08 Because he wasn't necessarily passive, he was simply continuing to push forward even
1285. 01:15:14 though everyone else was against him, but not directly contradicting decisions made by the
1286. 01:15:21 people opposing him.
1287. 01:15:24 I think that's what she's referring to, but there is a lot of power in that.
1288. 01:15:28 It takes a lot of patience.
1289. 01:15:30 That was my thinking when I ran through a lot of patience and a lot of guts.
1290. 01:15:33 Holy cow.
1291. 01:15:34 I would have done lost my marbles by this point, but sway goes.
1292. 01:15:41 Part four, how to love, how to work.
1293. 01:15:43 I have to admit that this was the section I was itching to get to whenever I was reading
1294. 01:15:47 this book the second time here.
1295. 01:15:49 Because like, okay, let's get through all this groundwork because I want to know what
1296. 01:15:52 you're suggesting for action ups, even though I've read this before, for whatever reason
1297. 01:15:56 I was excited to get to this piece.
1298. 01:15:57 Because chapter nine, the first of the three chapters in this is when should you act more
1299. 01:16:03 extroverted than you really are.
1300. 01:16:05 I don't know how many times we've mentioned or alluded to this in this episode already,
1301. 01:16:10 but there's a strong dissonance here with I'm an introvert living in an extroverted world.
1302. 01:16:18 And yet there are times when I can become extroverted and draw energy from being that
1303. 01:16:22 way.
1304. 01:16:24 Why is that?
1305. 01:16:26 And when does that happen?
1306. 01:16:27 And when should I allow myself to do that?
1307. 01:16:30 There are a lot of different scenarios that that can come out, but the one that she starts
1308. 01:16:35 with this whole section with is core projects.
1309. 01:16:39 The examples are with, for example, a professor who very, very animated and excitable in class,
1310. 01:16:48 but really just wants to go out to the mountains and read books.
1311. 01:16:51 Like that's that's his thing.
1312. 01:16:53 But yet he draws a lot of energy from being this hyper extroverted professor in the classroom
1313. 01:17:00 and people have no idea he's introverted.
1314. 01:17:03 And it's because his one of his core projects, one of the things he resonates with deeply
1315. 01:17:08 is teaching kids and teaching students in basically anyway.
1316. 01:17:14 Like that is a thing that he strongly ascribes to.
1317. 01:17:19 And because of that, it's easy for him to flex outside of his introversion.
1318. 01:17:23 And I think that's very true.
1319. 01:17:25 Like it, you know, how many times do you hear people talk about?
1320. 01:17:27 Like if I'm I can't sell like I'm not a salesperson, but I can sell things left and right.
1321. 01:17:35 Like I do client work right now.
1322. 01:17:36 Like I can sell left and right because I genuinely am excited about people's ideas and helping
1323. 01:17:42 them come to life.
1324. 01:17:43 Yeah.
1325. 01:17:44 That's that's easy for me to do.
1326. 01:17:45 So it's easy for me to act extroverted in those scenarios.
1327. 01:17:48 But those are part of my core projects.
1328. 01:17:50 Like those are important to me.
1329. 01:17:52 And that's that's the piece that she's referring to.
1330. 01:17:54 Yeah, I'm fascinated by this concept of core projects.
1331. 01:17:58 This kind of ties into what she describes as the free trait theory, where we're endowed
1332. 01:18:03 with certain personality traits like introversion, but we can and do act out of character in
1333. 01:18:08 the service of those core personal projects.
1334. 01:18:10 And you use the term flex outside of your, I forget exactly what you said, but I like
1335. 01:18:15 that term flex.
1336. 01:18:16 I think that kind of describes it very accurately where you can be stretched outside of your
1337. 01:18:22 normal shape, but you're always going to return to your natural state.
1338. 01:18:27 And that's that's describes what's going on here where introverts act like extroverts
1339. 01:18:32 for the sake of the work that they consider to be important.
1340. 01:18:36 So this got me thinking like, what are my core projects?
1341. 01:18:40 And I think bookworm applies to what would fit there.
1342. 01:18:44 So would the other podcast I do focused the stuff I do with max stock faith based productivity,
1343. 01:18:50 obviously.
1344. 01:18:51 But what's interesting about all these core projects is that they all require me to be
1345. 01:18:55 extroverted.
1346. 01:18:58 So I found that to be really interesting where like I'm wired this way, but everything that
1347. 01:19:02 I consider important, I have to act another way.
1348. 01:19:07 Yes.
1349. 01:19:08 But I also, I also think again, there's more to it than just introverted versus extroverted.
1350. 01:19:14 And I also think she's got three keys to identifying your own core personal projects.
1351. 01:19:19 I think this is, I don't know how to say this nicely, like I thought this was really shallow.
1352. 01:19:28 She mentions, think back to when you what you love to do when you were a child.
1353. 01:19:32 Number two, pay attention to what you gravitate to.
1354. 01:19:34 Number three, pay attention to what you envy.
1355. 01:19:37 I think there's so much more to it than this.
1356. 01:19:39 And I get it.
1357. 01:19:40 You know, my perspective is a little bit different because that's really what my course is all
1358. 01:19:43 about is identifying your core projects.
1359. 01:19:46 What are the things that really push all your buttons, connect to your calling, discover
1360. 01:19:50 your destiny, live the life you're created for, you know, do the things that really matter
1361. 01:19:53 to you.
1362. 01:19:54 We talked about Maslow's hierarchy and one of our previous episodes and how I kind of
1363. 01:19:58 view it as like backwards.
1364. 01:19:59 You got to start with the self actualization stuff.
1365. 01:20:03 So I get it, you know, for some people, maybe those three questions are helpful, but I feel
1366. 01:20:08 like this is so like not even the tip of the iceberg that it really didn't do anything
1367. 01:20:13 for me.
1368. 01:20:14 I could even put this in there sort of a thing.
1369. 01:20:16 It could be like if you're completely new to it.
1370. 01:20:18 Yep.
1371. 01:20:19 Yeah.
1372. 01:20:20 Right.
1373. 01:20:21 So I recognize that it's hard for me, you know, what is that?
1374. 01:20:23 The beginner's curse, you know, once you're in something for a while, it's hard for you
1375. 01:20:27 to picture yourself coming to this as someone who's not steeped in this stuff.
1376. 01:20:32 So I tried to do that.
1377. 01:20:33 I just couldn't do it.
1378. 01:20:35 Yeah.
1379. 01:20:36 It's hard to let go of experience when you have it.
1380. 01:20:39 Yep.
1381. 01:20:40 I get it.
1382. 01:20:41 The piece here that's I think important is the restorative niches.
1383. 01:20:45 Yeah.
1384. 01:20:46 Which is a piece that I don't do well.
1385. 01:20:49 This is one of my action items.
1386. 01:20:52 Making sure that I have time to step away from some of the core project pieces that have
1387. 01:21:00 me, you know, moving outside of my introversion and be intentional about playing into those
1388. 01:21:08 strengths.
1389. 01:21:09 I do really well if I'm trying to develop an idea, a strategic concept for a business.
1390. 01:21:16 Like, I do really well when I'm doing those scenarios, but I don't give myself that time.
1391. 01:21:21 And those are things that I need to build in more because I simply don't do it, Mike.
1392. 01:21:26 Yeah.
1393. 01:21:27 This is exactly what I was talking about with the interview with Jocelyn K. Goliath because
1394. 01:21:30 she's working in this startup and her boss is extroverted.
1395. 01:21:34 And the section in that episode, what did I do label it?
1396. 01:21:38 Because I did the editing for that episode.
1397. 01:21:40 I think I called it "stemming the extroverted tide" or something like that.
1398. 01:21:45 Because she had a boss who was like, "Okay, so let's do this."
1399. 01:21:48 And then her response was always, "Give me a day to think about it and I'll get back
1400. 01:21:52 to you."
1401. 01:21:53 Yeah.
1402. 01:21:54 And I thought that was brilliant because it recognized that, "Okay, I'm introverted.
1403. 01:21:59 I need the time to process this."
1404. 01:22:02 And she was willing to put a stake in the ground and be like, "Okay, we all want to do
1405. 01:22:06 the best work possible, right?"
1406. 01:22:07 So this is the best way for me to work.
1407. 01:22:10 And by having that conversation, she was able to get the space that she needed to survive
1408. 01:22:14 in that environment.
1409. 01:22:15 But how many introverts just don't even recognize that this is just the way that extroverts,
1410. 01:22:21 this is the way that they prefer to work.
1411. 01:22:23 And they don't even bother to say, "Well, could we do it a different way?"
1412. 01:22:27 Because they assume the expectations.
1413. 01:22:31 I've been that person where I'm just, "Okay, well, I guess I'll try to make you happy then."
1414. 01:22:36 But inside, I'm crying.
1415. 01:22:42 So the restorative niches, that's one of my action items too, is to identify what are
1416. 01:22:46 those things that can help me to restore, find my happy place on a regular basis.
1417. 01:22:52 Chapter 10, the communication gap.
1418. 01:22:54 What happens, especially in marriages, when one is an extrovert, the other is an introvert
1419. 01:23:03 or vice versa, or in Joe's case, what happens if you're an introvert and your spouse is
1420. 01:23:10 an ambivert?
1421. 01:23:11 We haven't really talked about ambivergent.
1422. 01:23:14 And she just mentioned it very, very briefly towards the beginning.
1423. 01:23:17 But there are people who are sometimes extroverts and sometimes introverts depending on the situation
1424. 01:23:26 or the topic.
1425. 01:23:28 So I just have to throw this out there because I'm sure you and your wife, a marriage relationship,
1426. 01:23:34 you're putting another person ahead of yourself anyways.
1427. 01:23:36 So there's totally a way for you to make it work.
1428. 01:23:39 And I get that.
1429. 01:23:40 But my natural reaction, when you're describing your introvert and your wife isn't an ambiverist,
1430. 01:23:45 like, "Oh my gosh, she would totally use that against me."
1431. 01:23:50 That would drive me nuts because I tend to be like you an introvert and a thinker.
1432. 01:23:54 I got to figure out how all this stuff works.
1433. 01:23:56 And then at a moment's notice, she's just a mess with me.
1434. 01:23:58 Like, "Oh, I'm actually going to do it the other way."
1435. 01:24:01 Yeah.
1436. 01:24:02 So we've been married almost 10 years.
1437. 01:24:07 And it's taken almost all of 10 years for me to understand which scenarios is she which
1438. 01:24:14 in?
1439. 01:24:16 And there are some social situations where she just doesn't want to go home because she
1440. 01:24:21 just loves the situation.
1441. 01:24:24 But there are other social situations that originally to me were identical.
1442. 01:24:29 But she's tired and wants to go home.
1443. 01:24:31 She's just like me like she can't handle tons and tons and tons of it.
1444. 01:24:36 That'll mess with your head.
1445. 01:24:37 But anyway, the communication gap, like, "What do you do if you're different?
1446. 01:24:42 You're not both extroverts.
1447. 01:24:44 You're not both introverts.
1448. 01:24:46 And how do you handle that?"
1449. 01:24:47 She tells the story of Greg and Emily.
1450. 01:24:50 And Greg is an extrovert.
1451. 01:24:51 Emily is an introvert.
1452. 01:24:53 Greg loves to have massive social get-togethers at their house every weekend, every Friday
1453. 01:24:58 night.
1454. 01:24:59 Emily can't stand it because she's in a job where she's basically in a round a lot of
1455. 01:25:05 people all day long.
1456. 01:25:06 So she feels like she has to come home and then entertain.
1457. 01:25:09 And those two fight and fight and fight and fight.
1458. 01:25:12 And their fighting style exacerbates the problem.
1459. 01:25:16 And then they don't know how to get through the whole thing.
1460. 01:25:18 And it's purely a factor of one pulling energy from the fighting mechanism, the other wanting
1461. 01:25:24 to just crawl in a hole because of the same fight.
1462. 01:25:28 And they continue to create this circular issue.
1463. 01:25:31 Yeah.
1464. 01:25:32 So mentioned earlier, I'm the introvert.
1465. 01:25:35 My wife took the Myers-Briggs thing as well.
1466. 01:25:37 She is definitely the extrovert, which there were no surprises when we took those assessments.
1467. 01:25:43 But this whole section was fascinating to me because on page 230 there's this excerpt
1468. 01:25:48 here, which I believe Emily and Greg are fictional characters, by the way.
1469. 01:25:52 Oh, I don't think I caught that.
1470. 01:25:55 I don't know that for sure.
1471. 01:25:56 But I put in the outline, Mike and Rachel, I mean Greg and Emily.
1472. 01:26:02 Yeah.
1473. 01:26:03 Because this describes us.
1474. 01:26:05 So page 230 says, "When Emily and Greg disagree, her voice gets quiet and flat, her
1475. 01:26:09 manners slightly distant.
1476. 01:26:10 What she's trying to do is minimize aggression.
1477. 01:26:12 Emily isn't comfortable with anger, but she appears to be receding emotionally.
1478. 01:26:16 Meanwhile Greg does just the opposite, raising his voice and sounding belligerent as he gets
1479. 01:26:20 even more engaged and working out their problem."
1480. 01:26:23 That's the key phrase there, I think, for me.
1481. 01:26:25 "The more Emily seems to withdraw, the more alone, then hurt, then enraged.
1482. 01:26:28 Greg becomes the anger he gets, the more hurt and distaste Emily feels and the deeper she
1483. 01:26:34 retreats."
1484. 01:26:35 Okay.
1485. 01:26:36 So this description defines pretty much every conflict my wife and I have ever had.
1486. 01:26:43 Okay.
1487. 01:26:44 But here's the interesting part though.
1488. 01:26:46 I recognize from reading this that when we have conflict in our marriage, our roles are
1489. 01:26:53 reversed here.
1490. 01:26:54 And I am now Greg, the extrovert, and she is now Emily, the introvert.
1491. 01:26:59 I have no idea why this happens, but this is exactly what happens.
1492. 01:27:04 I think, like I said, the key part here is that I tend to want to work out the problem,
1493. 01:27:11 figure out what is broken in the system that created these results and I'm not willing
1494. 01:27:17 to drop it until we figure it out.
1495. 01:27:20 But she's just kind of like, "Oh, I just want to get away from here and get some distance."
1496. 01:27:25 And obviously neither of those are the ideal here.
1497. 01:27:30 Right, right.
1498. 01:27:31 So the interesting observation to me anyway is that when we do have conflict, we basically
1499. 01:27:35 flip roles and I cannot for the life of me figure out why that is.
1500. 01:27:41 With us, it depends on the topic as to whether or not it's a heated animated conflict or
1501. 01:27:53 whether it's a calm and questioning process.
1502. 01:27:58 And you would think the severity of the conflict would dictate that, but it's not.
1503. 01:28:03 We could have a very heated conversation on the dog and have a really laid back questioning
1504. 01:28:08 conflict about how we're going to school our kids.
1505. 01:28:11 So it doesn't really apply to that.
1506. 01:28:14 So I usually have a tendency to be somewhat quiet and reserved, ask questions.
1507. 01:28:23 That's kind of my MO whenever I deal with conflict is get quiet and ask questions, which
1508. 01:28:30 sometimes is maddening to other people.
1509. 01:28:33 I get that, but I can't help it.
1510. 01:28:35 That's just my reaction.
1511. 01:28:38 Sometimes that goes over well with my wife and she can kind of help me through those scenarios.
1512. 01:28:43 Sometimes she just, I think sometimes she just wants to fight.
1513. 01:28:47 She's told me that before.
1514. 01:28:48 She's like, "Sometimes I just want you to fight with me."
1515. 01:28:51 Okay, I can do that occasionally, but I don't like to do that.
1516. 01:28:56 Right, right.
1517. 01:28:57 So it's just very, very different.
1518. 01:28:59 Yeah, that's the exact scenario I was picturing in my head that kind of terrified me.
1519. 01:29:04 Yeah.
1520. 01:29:05 Yeah.
1521. 01:29:06 So anyway, that's the communication gap.
1522. 01:29:10 You have to learn how each other operates.
1523. 01:29:12 I tell newlyweds you got to learn how to fight well.
1524. 01:29:16 That's a really important thing, at least in my mind.
1525. 01:29:20 So that's a lot of what this ends up being about, is how do extroverts and introverts
1526. 01:29:25 talk to each other and understand each other?
1527. 01:29:27 Yeah, this chapter is kind of weird to me because they tell the story at the beginning
1528. 01:29:32 and you're identifying with these people in my scenario.
1529. 01:29:37 We flipped them when we're engaged in conflict, but then just like a lot of other books that
1530. 01:29:42 we've read, this is the happy ending.
1531. 01:29:45 And the happy ending is just so simple and dumb and straightforward, it's like, you
1532. 01:29:50 figure out how to compromise.
1533. 01:29:52 You can't always get what you want.
1534. 01:29:54 Right.
1535. 01:29:55 And it just seems like, why is this so revolutionary?
1536. 01:29:58 Yes.
1537. 01:30:00 This is not a new idea.
1538. 01:30:01 But yeah, if you were to summarize this, that's the big takeaway.
1539. 01:30:05 You got to, as an extrovert, understand how draining social situations can be for introverts
1540. 01:30:10 and introverts, you have to understand how much your silence can be hurtful.
1541. 01:30:15 The other thing that I like the phrasing she had of this is, and she phrased it as like,
1542. 01:30:21 Emily was talking to somebody and this is the advice that they gave her was, it's not
1543. 01:30:25 okay to bite, but it is okay to his.
1544. 01:30:28 And as an introvert, I don't know, I like that idea because I feel like it gives you
1545. 01:30:33 a little bit of leash in terms of responding in a way that it becomes clear.
1546. 01:30:41 You don't like this sort of a thing.
1547. 01:30:43 But also as an introvert, I feel like this is the thing that maybe can get me into trouble
1548. 01:30:47 because when people don't recognize that I'm hissing, then I feel like I have to bite.
1549. 01:30:53 So my natural reaction is to not do that because then I kind of feel like I'm forced
1550. 01:31:02 to go from zero to 100 if people don't recognize it.
1551. 01:31:07 Sure.
1552. 01:31:08 Next chapter here on Cobblers and Generals.
1553. 01:31:12 Weirdest title ever for chapter about kids.
1554. 01:31:15 Well, yes, until you hear the story it starts with.
1555. 01:31:19 Once, so the story goes that there was a man trying to determine who was the greatest general
1556. 01:31:25 in all of history.
1557. 01:31:26 And someone tells him, oh, he's passed away.
1558. 01:31:31 So he goes to the Pearly Gates and runs across St. Peter and asks Peter, I would like to meet
1559. 01:31:37 the greatest general to ever live.
1560. 01:31:40 And he brings out a cobbler to him that the man knew.
1561. 01:31:46 And he's like, he's not the greatest general.
1562. 01:31:48 He's just a cobbler.
1563. 01:31:49 He's like, yes, but he would have been the greatest general if he had been a general.
1564. 01:31:54 Yeah.
1565. 01:31:55 That's the story.
1566. 01:31:56 So on cobblers and generals, that's where the title comes from.
1567. 01:32:00 Yeah, which as a parent kind of freaks you out because you're like, okay, who are the
1568. 01:32:07 people that I've been entrusted with?
1569. 01:32:10 Right.
1570. 01:32:11 And how do I not mess up their wife's calling?
1571. 01:32:15 She tells another story in here of Isabella and Isabella is an introverted kid where her
1572. 01:32:21 mom Joyce thinks that something's wrong with her.
1573. 01:32:23 It doesn't like sitting at the loud table at lunch.
1574. 01:32:26 She's freaked out when her mom schedules play dates without telling her.
1575. 01:32:31 And this story resonated with me because I have a son that's exactly like this.
1576. 01:32:36 And it's something that my wife and I have kind of talked about is like, well, sometimes
1577. 01:32:40 we do need to push him a little bit and say, no, you should go hang out with those kids,
1578. 01:32:44 whatever.
1579. 01:32:45 We're not going to just spring stuff on him though because we know how he's going to respond.
1580. 01:32:48 He's got to be, I don't want to say coached up, but kind of like you got to put him in
1581. 01:32:53 the position where he doesn't just trigger the fight versus flight and then run away.
1582. 01:33:00 You got to put him in a position where he can sort through things for himself and take
1583. 01:33:04 that step out there.
1584. 01:33:06 When he was younger, he was stereotypical extrovert, which is kind of what she talks
1585. 01:33:12 about with the babies and their responses.
1586. 01:33:16 I can definitely see that in one of my kids specifically.
1587. 01:33:21 But also the big thing here for me is just asking what is the right thing to do for
1588. 01:33:29 each one of these kids because they are so different.
1589. 01:33:33 Not just introverted versus extroverted, but each one of them is a combination of traits
1590. 01:33:40 for my wife and I that sometimes I don't even know how they got there.
1591. 01:33:45 And it's like trying to figure out a really, really complicated puzzle just to put them
1592. 01:33:50 in the right position.
1593. 01:33:52 But it's also a responsibility that I take very seriously.
1594. 01:33:55 And I don't want to be responsible for them not reaching their full potential.
1595. 01:34:05 Now I want to put them in the best possible position to succeed.
1596. 01:34:10 And that requires a lot more effort than just, okay, this is what we do.
1597. 01:34:17 A lot of the stuff that I talk about and even a lot of stuff that I create, it kind of comes
1598. 01:34:21 back to this idea of vision and values and this drives your decision making and all
1599. 01:34:25 that type of stuff.
1600. 01:34:27 And I really do believe in all of that.
1601. 01:34:29 But I also think that there's nuance in every single situation and there is no just car
1602. 01:34:32 plank.
1603. 01:34:33 This is the right thing to do every single time.
1604. 01:34:36 And that is very evident with kids in my opinion.
1605. 01:34:40 It's really hard to know what do they need right now.
1606. 01:34:43 And so one of my other action items here, I put ask more questions, but in my outline,
1607. 01:34:47 it's specifically asked more questions during my one on ones, which once a week I go with
1608. 01:34:53 one of my kids to a coffee shop and we play games, we talk whatever, just because I want
1609. 01:34:59 to have that platform in their life when they're older where this is just something that we've
1610. 01:35:03 normalized.
1611. 01:35:04 And so this is the place for deep conversations to happen.
1612. 01:35:07 And even outside of that, you know, we talk about stuff there.
1613. 01:35:09 So we talk about stuff at home and it's getting to the point now where I'm starting to see
1614. 01:35:13 the fruit from the effort that we've put in doing that the last several years.
1615. 01:35:20 But one of the things that I recognize is that I need to be asking more questions there.
1616. 01:35:26 It can't just be defaulting to the normal activity.
1617. 01:35:31 I need to be probing a little bit.
1618. 01:35:34 So I really understand what's all going on in their world.
1619. 01:35:38 Right.
1620. 01:35:39 Yeah, I think it's one of the hardest things to nail down the nuance of your kids tendencies
1621. 01:35:45 and personality and skills.
1622. 01:35:50 And then try to help them with all of that.
1623. 01:35:53 This seems like it should be simple, but holy buckets, this is extremely subtle and detailed.
1624. 01:36:01 And I need all the help I can get.
1625. 01:36:04 So yes, I'm with you 100%.
1626. 01:36:07 Trying to understand my kids is going to be a lifelong goal and will never, never, never,
1627. 01:36:15 never finish.
1628. 01:36:16 I also think that maybe that perspective and the gravity that we attribute to that responsibility
1629. 01:36:28 maybe influences our decision to homeschool our kids.
1630. 01:36:32 Oh, sure.
1631. 01:36:33 So the things they talk about in this section basically is like, don't worry about your
1632. 01:36:36 kids if they seem to be introverted.
1633. 01:36:39 And I took that a step further because we hear all the time from well-meaning extroverts
1634. 01:36:44 everywhere that they are worried about how social our kids will be because they are homeschooled,
1635. 01:36:51 which is completely ridiculous.
1636. 01:36:53 I mean, I'm going to get on a soapbox here just for a second, but I'm going to try to
1637. 01:36:57 keep it as brief as possible.
1638. 01:36:58 I mean, there's a lot of research that shows actually once you get outside of this is my
1639. 01:37:03 click and these are all the people who are exactly like me, the exact same age, when you
1640. 01:37:08 get outside that situation and they follow homeschoolers like through the rest of their
1641. 01:37:12 life, they actually end up being way more social because you're not in that situation.
1642. 01:37:15 You're around other people who are different ages, different backgrounds, you know, go figure.
1643. 01:37:20 But anyways, the main takeaway for me is that we want to put our kids in the best possible
1644. 01:37:25 position to succeed, right?
1645. 01:37:26 So putting them in an environment like a public school is maybe the worst thing you can do
1646. 01:37:34 for them because school doesn't prepare kids for learning and growing.
1647. 01:37:38 On page 253, she says, "The purpose of school should be to prepare kids for the rest of
1648. 01:37:42 their lives."
1649. 01:37:43 But too often what kids need to be prepared for is surviving the school day itself.
1650. 01:37:48 And I have limited experience in that because I was homeschooled for a portion of my foreman
1651. 01:37:56 of years, but not the entire time.
1652. 01:37:58 So I understand what that means.
1653. 01:38:03 And it really makes me question and the author says this, like, "Why do we accept this one-size-fits-all
1654. 01:38:08 situation as a given when we know perfectly well that adults don't organize themselves
1655. 01:38:12 this way?"
1656. 01:38:14 Like if you think about it, the whole model is we're going to prepare people and we're
1657. 01:38:20 going to train them the right way to act according to an extroverted ideal, going back to like
1658. 01:38:25 the groupthink, the new groupthink from one of the previous chapters and how like if you're
1659. 01:38:31 an introvert basically like that's a situation where it's designed for you to fail.
1660. 01:38:36 Okay.
1661. 01:38:37 And then we're going to use that system as a springboard for how we qualify success for
1662. 01:38:43 the rest of our lives.
1663. 01:38:45 That just makes no sense.
1664. 01:38:48 And I don't think it should be any surprise that people would look for an alternative method.
1665. 01:38:53 Right.
1666. 01:38:54 I think if homeschooling legitimately caused some of the social outcast stereotype that
1667. 01:39:04 lives on, it would be very obvious who the homeschool kids and adults are.
1668. 01:39:10 Well, let me just say like there is some truth to that.
1669. 01:39:14 There are people who do it wrong.
1670. 01:39:15 Yeah, it does exist.
1671. 01:39:16 Yep.
1672. 01:39:17 Okay.
1673. 01:39:18 But that doesn't mean it's a systems fault.
1674. 01:39:19 Like Toby, our oldest, he's 11.
1675. 01:39:22 He actually played on a homeschool basketball team this last year.
1676. 01:39:25 Like they traveled and played other schools.
1677. 01:39:27 And there are some kids on the team who like if you were to compare the stereotypical homeschooler
1678. 01:39:34 versus the stereotypical public school kid, like you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
1679. 01:39:40 And then there were some people that you're like, oh yeah, you're the reason people think
1680. 01:39:44 we're weird.
1681. 01:39:45 Yep.
1682. 01:39:46 But it's not the system.
1683. 01:39:47 It's ultimately the parents.
1684. 01:39:49 Right.
1685. 01:39:50 It's how you do that schooling.
1686. 01:39:51 For sure.
1687. 01:39:52 Refraction items?
1688. 01:39:53 Yeah.
1689. 01:39:54 So I've got two.
1690. 01:39:56 I put ask more questions.
1691. 01:39:57 As I mentioned in the last chapter, specifically that action item came because I want to ask
1692. 01:40:02 more questions during my one on ones.
1693. 01:40:04 But I made it more broad in my action items because I recognize that there are a lot of
1694. 01:40:08 situations where I'm interacting with people where that would be valuable as well.
1695. 01:40:12 So not just in raising cowboys and generals, but just everybody that I come in contact
1696. 01:40:18 with, you and I, we go grab coffee, ask more questions.
1697. 01:40:22 The other one I have is to identify my own restorative niches so that when I am forced
1698. 01:40:26 to act extroverted, I can recover and not reach the point where I freak out.
1699. 01:40:34 That's kind of something I've historically been bad at.
1700. 01:40:38 Sure.
1701. 01:40:39 Well, I have two as well.
1702. 01:40:40 One is, I guess, the same thing.
1703. 01:40:43 I've been daily time for respite, so identify my own restorative niches.
1704. 01:40:47 I think I'll echo that one.
1705. 01:40:50 I also have spend less time in pseudo extrovert mode.
1706. 01:40:54 It's like I tend to default to that in some scenarios and it's exhausting.
1707. 01:41:01 And given my current health state, I need to do that less.
1708. 01:41:04 So I need to take that action item.
1709. 01:41:07 Definitely do.
1710. 01:41:08 All right.
1711. 01:41:09 I'm just island rating, so this, I think, is an easy read.
1712. 01:41:14 I will say it's long.
1713. 01:41:16 This is a long book.
1714. 01:41:18 For an introvert, she's got a lot to say.
1715. 01:41:20 Yeah.
1716. 01:41:21 Well, this is her way of saying things.
1717. 01:41:23 So it makes perfect sense.
1718. 01:41:25 Yeah.
1719. 01:41:26 So no, it's definitely a meandering journey book, which I don't normally get excited
1720. 01:41:31 about, but I definitely did with this one.
1721. 01:41:33 So she is, to me, an easy person to read.
1722. 01:41:36 I found myself wanting to find time to sit down and read this.
1723. 01:41:40 So it was very easy for me to do that.
1724. 01:41:42 So yeah, as far as this an easy book to pick up and go through, absolutely.
1725. 01:41:48 Definitely think it's worth your time.
1726. 01:41:49 I think it explains a lot as far as like how people interact with each other and how
1727. 01:41:54 you can move in and out of different personality traits.
1728. 01:41:58 It does help explain a lot of that.
1729. 01:42:00 It doesn't necessarily say, this is the way you are or the way you should always be.
1730. 01:42:04 Thankfully, it doesn't say that.
1731. 01:42:06 It does at least explain certain situations and how those play out, which I really, really
1732. 01:42:11 enjoy.
1733. 01:42:12 As for how to rate this, I really struggle.
1734. 01:42:14 I don't think it's a five star.
1735. 01:42:16 I don't, but I kind of struggle between the four and 4.5 on this one, mostly because I
1736. 01:42:22 really, really enjoyed this.
1737. 01:42:24 And I know that I've really enjoyed it twice now, but I also don't know that it really
1738. 01:42:29 fits like a 4.5 point because that would tell me it's just barely off of five, but
1739. 01:42:34 it's not super groundbreaking to me either.
1740. 01:42:38 So I'm going to put it at a 4.0, though I don't think I have a real solid rationale for why
1741. 01:42:44 other than just feeling my way there, which is probably terrible for a book about feelings
1742. 01:42:51 and such.
1743. 01:42:52 No, I think that's fair.
1744. 01:42:55 To be honest, I was struggling with what to rate this as well.
1745. 01:42:58 My baseline was kind of the 4.0 based on the content of the ideas.
1746. 01:43:05 I really do enjoy her style, though, and the stories that she told are awesome.
1747. 01:43:09 Like I said, she's one of the best storytellers out of any of the books that we've ever read.
1748. 01:43:14 So I'm actually going to give it 4.5, even though there were definitely some sections
1749. 01:43:18 here, which I complained about during the episode.
1750. 01:43:21 And I disagree with some of the stuff, but overall, I think it's a really good book.
1751. 01:43:26 I think it's really well researched.
1752. 01:43:27 I think she articulates her ideas really well.
1753. 01:43:31 Also I'm not sure if you saw this, but typically on the back, all of the quotes from the people
1754. 01:43:37 who have read it.
1755. 01:43:38 And she's got Gretchen Rubin, Teresa, Emma Beale, Andrew Wheel, Guy Kawasaki, Barry Schwartz,
1756. 01:43:46 Brian Little.
1757. 01:43:47 On the inside cover, there is a quote from the man himself, Mihauwie.
1758. 01:43:53 Right at the top of that list there.
1759. 01:43:56 So I'm not saying Mihauwie is the guy who put it over at the 4.5, but seeing that and
1760. 01:44:03 recognizing, we talked about this a little bit ago, how there are some books we read,
1761. 01:44:10 and we don't realize the impact that they have on us until further on.
1762. 01:44:14 And we recognize we've gone back to them.
1763. 01:44:16 The idea is there a hundred times.
1764. 01:44:17 Okay, a flow is definitely one of those books.
1765. 01:44:20 And so when you understand that in Mihauwie's ideas, those have had a permanent lasting
1766. 01:44:30 impact in a lot of different areas of my life.
1767. 01:44:32 So his opinion now has greater weight to me than some of the people that you see on the
1768. 01:44:39 back.
1769. 01:44:40 Sure.
1770. 01:44:41 Okay.
1771. 01:44:42 And when I saw that, it kind of changed my perspective a little bit as to like, no, there
1772. 01:44:49 really is something here.
1773. 01:44:50 You just got to dig a little bit deeper.
1774. 01:44:53 And I'd like to think that, you know, I can dig as deep as I need to every single time
1775. 01:44:56 I pick up a book, but the truth is that I can sometimes I need to be coached up a little
1776. 01:45:01 bit.
1777. 01:45:02 And you know, when I saw that and they're halfway through the book, I'm like, oh, I
1778. 01:45:06 need to pay more attention to this.
1779. 01:45:08 I need to give it the time that it deserves.
1780. 01:45:10 Sure.
1781. 01:45:11 And I really feel that there's some quality stuff here.
1782. 01:45:15 And if you spent more time with it and unpacked it even further than we could, and this is
1783. 01:45:18 kind of a long episode now, but generally speaking, an hour and a half, then I think
1784. 01:45:24 that that this book is not going to disappoint.
1785. 01:45:26 Sure.
1786. 01:45:28 So what's next, Mike?
1787. 01:45:29 The next book that we will be covering is a listener recommendation.
1788. 01:45:35 We actually picked this live on air last time.
1789. 01:45:38 And that is How to Take Smart Notes by Sanki Erens.
1790. 01:45:41 He's got a video that I found on the web too that I started watching, but I just, I
1791. 01:45:47 couldn't listen to it very long.
1792. 01:45:50 He's got a really cool accent, but just the presentation style kind of drove me nuts.
1793. 01:45:55 So we'll read the book instead.
1794. 01:45:57 I haven't seen the video, but now I have to go look it up.
1795. 01:46:00 Definitely doing that.
1796. 01:46:03 After How to Take Smart Notes is Emotional Intelligence by Daniel Coleman.
1797. 01:46:08 We've kind of alluded to this one a few times through the episode.
1798. 01:46:13 Emo, EQ, emotional intelligence.
1799. 01:46:15 It's come up.
1800. 01:46:16 I don't know how many times in recent books, I'm like, we've got to cover this.
1801. 01:46:21 We just have to.
1802. 01:46:22 So this is not a listener recommendation.
1803. 01:46:24 This is just a Joe wants to read this and I'm going to drag you all along with me.
1804. 01:46:29 That's what this is.
1805. 01:46:30 Fair enough.
1806. 01:46:31 I feel like this one has been a long time coming.
1807. 01:46:34 And I mentioned a while back that the family business has a software program, which is an
1808. 01:46:40 assessment, Skibbling Unit on Emotional Intelligence.
1809. 01:46:43 I am going to throw it out there right now.
1810. 01:46:46 Maybe you don't feel comfortable committing on air, but I think we both should take it.
1811. 01:46:49 And then as part of this episode, talk about some of the results.
1812. 01:46:52 What do you think?
1813. 01:46:53 I'm game.
1814. 01:46:54 I'm game hit me.
1815. 01:46:55 All right, cool.
1816. 01:46:56 So you all heard it here.
1817. 01:46:57 I might change my mind half, half way through that episode.
1818. 01:47:04 We'll see.
1819. 01:47:05 We'll see.
1820. 01:47:06 Kind of somewhat terrifies me.
1821. 01:47:07 Introvert coming out.
1822. 01:47:08 All right.
1823. 01:47:09 We've got some gap books too.
1824. 01:47:11 Mine is Company of One by Paul Jarvis.
1825. 01:47:13 This is a book that I haven't started yet, but I picked because a lot of the business
1826. 01:47:19 books that I've read are all like, this is how you scale your business.
1827. 01:47:23 This is how you grow your business.
1828. 01:47:25 And Paul Jarvis is basically making the counter argument.
1829. 01:47:28 This is how you run a business as one person, how you keep it small.
1830. 01:47:32 And so I think it's going to bring some balance to a lot of the ideas and things that I've
1831. 01:47:37 heard in the business books that I've read.
1832. 01:47:40 Yeah.
1833. 01:47:41 I have a gap book.
1834. 01:47:43 I think I may have mentioned this at one point, but I wrapped this up.
1835. 01:47:45 This is a book that I've been reading at night before I go to bed called A Place of My Own
1836. 01:47:49 by Michael Pollan.
1837. 01:47:51 Depending on your views of Michael Pollan, this is an earlier book of his.
1838. 01:47:55 Some people would say, don't ever read him.
1839. 01:47:56 Some people would say absolutely read everything he writes.
1840. 01:48:00 But this is about him building a shed in his backyard for his writing space of sorts.
1841. 01:48:06 So I don't know.
1842. 01:48:08 I recently wrapped it up trying to figure out what other book I'm going to write.
1843. 01:48:10 I'm going to read it at night, but it's a good book.
1844. 01:48:12 It's very DIY-ish and learning about architecture, which is not a bookworm book at all.
1845. 01:48:19 Right.
1846. 01:48:20 Right.
1847. 01:48:21 All right.
1848. 01:48:22 So that'll do it for this episode.
1849. 01:48:23 If you want to recommend a book, you can do that on the Bookworm Club.
1850. 01:48:28 Just create a new topic under the Recommendations section, put the book that you want us to cover.
1851. 01:48:33 And then remember to vote for it because we do take the number of votes into consideration.
1852. 01:48:39 So you can see a list of all of the books that we have covered as well as the books that
1853. 01:48:44 we're planning to cover over at bookworm.fm/list.
1854. 01:48:49 All of the links on that page are affiliate links.
1855. 01:48:51 So if you want to help out the show and you're reading along and you decide to buy your book
1856. 01:48:54 from those links, that helps us out a little bit.
1857. 01:48:57 So thank you in advance.
1858. 01:48:59 So a few ways you can support the show, get involved with the community, et cetera, et cetera.
1859. 01:49:04 One, leave us an iTunes review, link in the show notes.
1860. 01:49:07 That helps out tremendously, helps other people find the show.
1861. 01:49:10 You've heard us talk about this before.
1862. 01:49:11 But yeah, it's a great way to leave feedback on the show.
1863. 01:49:14 Tell us how we're doing and helps other people locate a podcast about books.
1864. 01:49:19 I've got one to read, by the way.
1865. 01:49:21 Okay, sure.
1866. 01:49:22 There's one here from DD Amos007.
1867. 01:49:26 And it says, "It's like a book club for professionals on the go.
1868. 01:49:29 I love to read, but many of my friends and family don't like the same kind of books that
1869. 01:49:33 I enjoy.
1870. 01:49:34 I prefer books on productivity, self-improvement, other nonfiction topics of success.
1871. 01:49:37 And leadership, this podcast is like having some buddies to read along with and discuss
1872. 01:49:41 and critique some of the most popular books around.
1873. 01:49:43 Start episode one, I promise you will not regret it.
1874. 01:49:46 So thank you for the five-star review."
1875. 01:49:48 That's cool.
1876. 01:49:50 Another way to get involved with the community is to join the club.
1877. 01:49:53 So club.bookworm.fm, sign up, share your action items on the club, get involved in some
1878. 01:49:59 of the conversations more so than me.
1879. 01:50:03 I've been in a rough spot lately.
1880. 01:50:05 So I'm getting caught up slowly.
1881. 01:50:08 So get involved with the club.
1882. 01:50:10 It's a great place to spend some time.
1883. 01:50:12 And we even have a premium membership section there as a way to support the show financially.
1884. 01:50:19 Link to that in the show notes below, but it's bookworm.fm/membership.
1885. 01:50:24 And that gets you access to some perks on the club.
1886. 01:50:29 Primarily, Mike's putting all of his show notes out there.
1887. 01:50:31 There's some premium-only conversations going on.
1888. 01:50:34 There's just a lot of cool stuff going on there.
1889. 01:50:36 We're always talking about some ways to add to that some concepts we're playing around
1890. 01:50:42 with.
1891. 01:50:43 I've been doing a little development on things I haven't told Mike about yet.
1892. 01:50:46 So there's some things that I'm goofing around with to try to continue to add more to it.
1893. 01:50:52 So if you jump in now, those will come along for the ride for free later on.
1894. 01:50:56 So go ahead and hit that up.
1895. 01:50:58 Bookworm.fm/membership.
1896. 01:51:00 Awesome.
1897. 01:51:01 Well, I'm very intrigued now.
1898. 01:51:03 But I guess just like me, you're going to have to wait to find out what Joe's got in
1899. 01:51:06 the store.
1900. 01:51:07 If you're reading along with us, then pick up How to Take Smart Notes by Sankay-Arrens.
1901. 01:51:12 And we'll talk to you in a couple of weeks.