87: Thinking, Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman

Click any line to jump to that moment.

1. 00:00:00 I'm excited about today's talk, Mike. -You've been thinking about it?
2. 00:00:04 -Dad jokes? -I guess.
3. 00:00:10 -Thanks for that. -No, I don't know what to say. Thanks, Mike.
4. 00:00:16 Let's just jump right in to follow up because I feel like we do and don't know what to talk
5. 00:00:25 about today because this is an interesting book to go through and it's going to be kind of a
6. 00:00:29 challenging one to discuss, I think. But before we get too far, you made a thing.
7. 00:00:34 What was the thing you made, Mike? -I did. I made a course and it is on the sweet setup.
8. 00:00:41 It is called Mastering Mind Maps and I think it is pretty awesome. There's three different
9. 00:00:47 sections to it. It's probably the most complete course I have made to date in terms of just like
10. 00:00:55 attacking every possible angle of this thing. Mind mapping, that's the type of thing where people
11. 00:01:01 think they know what it is and on the surface it doesn't seem that complicated. But then when you
12. 00:01:05 dig into it, you realize that why don't you do it because you really don't understand
13. 00:01:09 how you can apply it. You may know the what, but you may not know the why or the how.
14. 00:01:13 This course is designed to tackle that. There's a whole section of talking head videos where it
15. 00:01:20 talks about the science behind mind mapping, how all the pieces fit together. If you're completely
16. 00:01:24 new to the topic, there's a whole section on screencast videos for how to use Mind Node,
17. 00:01:28 which I was working on when I was visiting you. Since then, even I've made a whole bunch of
18. 00:01:34 workflow videos. Here's how you could use this for event planning, for financial planning,
19. 00:01:39 for meeting notes, for memorization. There were four of those initially when it launched,
20. 00:01:46 but there's been four more added and I'm working on a few more. It's basically everything you ever
21. 00:01:52 wanted to know about mind mapping in video format. I'm very excited about this because I have played
22. 00:01:58 around with the concept of mind mapping a number of times and it has never really stuck for me.
23. 00:02:06 And whenever you initially, I forget when you told me that you were working on a mind mapping,
24. 00:02:12 of course, kind of got me excited. Like, okay, if I'm ever going to learn and adopt this practice,
25. 00:02:20 I feel like Mike is the guy to learn this from. So because you've been doing the Mind Node files
26. 00:02:26 for Bookworm, like the club members for how long? How long have you been doing these things
27. 00:02:31 for a very long time? That is a good point. I should look right now how many are in there,
28. 00:02:37 actually. Because it's a lot. Looks like there are 72 of them, according to the four.
29. 00:02:45 So you've done this for a long time. So my sense is you know your way around mind mapping. So it
30. 00:02:51 made me excited whenever I saw the sweet setup was doing this and that you were the brains behind
31. 00:02:56 the videos themselves. So I'm excited about this for you. I'm glad this exists in the world.
32. 00:03:03 I need to set aside the time to go through this whole thing because and I'm trying to...
33. 00:03:10 We were talking about this a little bit before. If you follow myself or Brett Terpstra on Twitter,
34. 00:03:16 you've seen that he has inflicted pain on me lately with one of his projects and I'm dealing
35. 00:03:22 with the aftermath of that whole game that he was playing on me with my writing workflow right now.
36. 00:03:27 So once I get that settled down, I can step into Mike's video course for sure.
37. 00:03:35 Yeah, well that was kind of the interesting thing about this is this is the first course for the
38. 00:03:40 sweet setup where I've done the videos, like the screencast videos previously, but this was kind
39. 00:03:46 of the one that I drove. So if you were paying attention to sweet setup at all prior to launch,
40. 00:03:50 you saw a whole bunch of emails about my idea system that was kind of the thing that spurred this
41. 00:03:54 where I would capture things and then when it was time to write something or actually before it
42. 00:04:00 was time to write something, I would have consistent thinking time on my calendar where I would kind
43. 00:04:04 of develop these ideas and figure out what exactly this is and then the process of mind mapping the
44. 00:04:10 article before I would sit down to write it for a longer article, I estimate that an hour of mind
45. 00:04:14 mapping would save me about two hours of writing because I would never hit those dead ends and
46. 00:04:18 not know what to do next. The mind map basically eliminated the writer's block for me and this
47. 00:04:26 is an interesting process because it's cool to work with a team. I'm recognizing from this a
48. 00:04:33 little bit of retrospective here. I shared this with the Blanc Media team when we had our meeting
49. 00:04:36 this week that I know how to do all of these things individually and even though it's like my
50. 00:04:45 face on camera and I wrote the scripts and recorded the videos and things like that, it really is a
51. 00:04:50 team effort and it's really cool to have somebody that you can fall back on when you need to really
52. 00:04:57 focus on this area over here and you know the other thing can still get done. So like
53. 00:05:01 typos in title slides that need to be fixed. Hey Isaac can you help me out with this? Oh yeah sure
54. 00:05:07 and you know they're all fixed 20 minutes later. That really just speeds up everything and it
55. 00:05:12 allowed this course to come together a lot more quickly than it would have if it would have just
56. 00:05:16 been me. So I want to call that out that this is not a Mike Schmitt's production even though you'll
57. 00:05:20 hear my voice, you'll see my face. There's a lot of people who contributed to the success of this.
58. 00:05:25 I want to call that out. It takes a village. I don't know. I'm still excited about it. Well it
59. 00:05:29 technically doesn't because I've done it all myself before with faith-based productivity but
60. 00:05:33 I prefer doing it with the village. It's a lot more fun, a lot less stressful. Fair enough.
61. 00:05:39 Fair enough. All right you have a couple other follow-up items here. I have none this week so this
62. 00:05:43 is just me prodding at Mike Thorne and Rose. What is this? Yes. Okay well I'll explain this but I
63. 00:05:51 do want to just start with the URL for anybody who's interested in the course. It is the suite setup.com/minemaps.
64. 00:05:57 You want to go take a look and by the time this will be released, the launch discount I believe is
65. 00:06:03 going to have passed but it's still pretty affordable. I think it's going to be $57 for 30-something videos
66. 00:06:10 so not too bad. No not bad at all for sure. All right so now the Thorne and the Rose. This was the
67. 00:06:18 thing from the Art of Gathering where I wanted to during dinner time talk about like the highlight
68. 00:06:24 and the low light is another way of saying this from People's Days and I think we did this once.
69. 00:06:30 I recognize that this needs to change format a little bit for me. People weren't really as
70. 00:06:37 excited about it as I thought maybe they would be and I think one of the things that contributes to
71. 00:06:41 this is how do you typically see this playing out? Well you would... a different version of this
72. 00:06:48 might be how was school today? Well we homeschool our kids so they're not going to say at the dinner
73. 00:06:55 table yeah my teacher was a jerk or the kids in my glass are jerks because they're all sitting at
74. 00:07:02 the table with you so I think maybe we need to reframe this a little bit. I do like the idea of
75. 00:07:06 the highlight you know going back to... as I was thinking about this I was reminded of like the
76. 00:07:11 gratitude practice and how maybe it's not even worth focusing on the negative but just kind of focus
77. 00:07:18 refocus on the positive. For one that would take less time and I think with kids especially they
78. 00:07:26 don't necessarily need encouragement to brood on all the bad stuff that maybe has happened.
79. 00:07:35 That's probably people in general but it's definitely something we want to be intentional and teach
80. 00:07:39 our kids is like you don't have to stay in a bad attitude like yeah you don't have to sweep
81. 00:07:42 under the rug this bad thing happened we can talk about it we can talk about how you really feel
82. 00:07:46 about it but let's mourn and move on you know. So I don't know exactly what to do with this but I
83. 00:07:55 would not say that this was a success for me either. I'm kind of stuck. I think my wife and I are
84. 00:08:01 gonna have to talk about this and identify how we want it to look but I like the idea still. I still
85. 00:08:07 like the idea of having the intentional conversation at the dinner table and giving people like a
86. 00:08:12 structure to follow. So yeah I guess this one will be ongoing. One of the things that we do at our
87. 00:08:19 Sabbath dinner time so every Saturday night we do a big special dinner to celebrate the
88. 00:08:27 beginning of the weekend and one of the things that we do for that is go around the whole table
89. 00:08:34 and everybody says what was your favorite part of the week that we just went through like what
90. 00:08:38 was the best thing that happened to you throughout the week and we focus only on that we don't
91. 00:08:42 bring up the negative side because obviously with kids like to your point they absolutely
92. 00:08:48 love that part. I was like I don't want to encourage the bashing of your sisters. That is not what
93. 00:08:55 I'm after so we tend to just say what was the best part of your week and we just leave it at
94. 00:09:00 that every once in a while we do that just throughout the week it doesn't have to be at that Sabbath
95. 00:09:05 dinner but we'll do it ongoing leading up to that sometimes as well. I don't know we have
96. 00:09:11 good luck with that just doing the one side of it. I don't know if that would be helpful to you or
97. 00:09:15 not. Yeah maybe I like the weekly review aspect of that too but also I've been working on a thing
98. 00:09:26 so we haven't had dinner together every single night either. Aw sad day. Yeah I know but it's out
99. 00:09:33 there now and sabbatical is coming so. Party time. That's right. All right what else you got here
100. 00:09:40 Mike? So the grand intention for this episode was to have done my thing and I realized I forgot to
101. 00:09:50 look up how to say this word I've been told I say it wrong. Kibbutts. Kibbutts. Kibbutts.
102. 00:09:56 Yeah but the thing where I was going to have other couples over to my house and we were going to
103. 00:10:02 have a meal and facilitate intentional conversation per the inspiration from
104. 00:10:09 indestractable by Nier Isle. Unfortunately things have transpired to work against me. This one is
105. 00:10:15 not my fault show. Sure. The first week we were going to do it we actually had a youth camp though
106. 00:10:22 that ended the Saturday before we were going to do it we were going to do it on Sunday and a lot of
107. 00:10:28 the people that were going to come were actually at the youth camp and they got back and they were
108. 00:10:31 toasted so they're like you know what we really just would prefer if we can put this off a week
109. 00:10:36 is that okay? Yeah no problem we'll put it off a week and then last week when we were going to do
110. 00:10:41 it we got 10 inches of snow came from Minnesota it's your fault. So sure you blame me we stayed
111. 00:10:47 home. So did we so did everybody. That was the problem so still needs to happen I think we're
112. 00:10:56 going to shoot for this weekend. I will follow up on this everybody is excited about it it is
113. 00:11:02 going to happen but and I will share what I've learned from the process when it actually does but
114. 00:11:08 sure as of this recording this is also a fail. Sad day you'll get there. I know. I think you know
115. 00:11:15 one of the things that so with our version of this is what we just call our small group I've
116. 00:11:22 talked about this I don't know how many times now but we just met last night as we're recording and
117. 00:11:27 for us it's just been on the calendar every other week for years now and it's just who can make it
118. 00:11:35 but I think getting that first one organized is always the hard part in this case because you
119. 00:11:41 have to at least try to get everyone there the first time that way you have a precedent or a
120. 00:11:46 baseline to start from. I feel like there's some importance and value in that. Yeah and also
121. 00:11:52 with the way that we're doing it it's smaller so spoiler alert with the interview that we did with
122. 00:12:00 near I/O he kind of talked about how he's got three other couples that they they do it with we
123. 00:12:05 have two other couples that we've invited. So if one of those couples cannot make it that is 33%
124. 00:12:12 of the group that is gone. So it just so happened that the universe is conspiring against us at
125. 00:12:20 the moment but it's been on the calendar the last two weeks. We are ready for this we even
126. 00:12:25 redid our living room to facilitate this. I mentioned before that a couple of my words for
127. 00:12:33 the year are rest in relationships I know that relationships and having people over is going to
128. 00:12:37 be a big thing. Interestingly the verses that I was reading there's a verse in 1 Timothy 3 where
129. 00:12:45 talks about the qualifications for an elder which we are now elders at our church is to enjoy having
130. 00:12:51 people over to their home and I'm like oh got to get better at that one because my inclination is
131. 00:12:58 give me a book and give me my fireplace and leave me alone. So we got some new living room furniture
132. 00:13:07 which will allow us to create a space for those intentional conversations and we have people over
133. 00:13:12 not a small investment obviously. So it's going to happen it just hasn't happened yet. That's fair.
134. 00:13:19 I think you should just you know slow down do it the right way. I think that's there's a lot of
135. 00:13:24 value in that I believe. I know like for us we have five different couples that are in our
136. 00:13:28 group so we have a little bit of flexibility like if two of them can't make it that means we still
137. 00:13:33 have six people there and sometimes one half of a couple can make it and the other can't.
138. 00:13:39 So that happens and but again we have more in that group than we probably should have.
139. 00:13:46 Yeah if two of them can make it for us it's date night.
140. 00:13:49 Right right and I think in our case that's that's fine because I would say like 95% of the time
141. 00:13:58 there's at least one couple that can't make it. Sure. And so that means that most of the time
142. 00:14:03 we have four couples there which works out really well but it also means if you know there are
143. 00:14:10 the cases where you get to where you don't have enough for that and then you just turn it into
144. 00:14:14 social hour instead of going through your normal in our case like a Bible study and prayer time
145. 00:14:20 and such. So yes I am still excited about this. I think you've been talking about a kabats for a
146. 00:14:26 while and I'm excited to see how the first one goes. So I'm going to continue prodding.
147. 00:14:32 Yep keep asking I want to share this. So all right all of that said let's step into today's book
148. 00:14:39 which is Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman. I feel like this is a book that we should have
149. 00:14:45 done a long time ago. Mike especially having read it now my sense is that this is a book that a lot
150. 00:14:52 of our other books have been based on just some degree. Sure. Kahneman has a lot a lot of science
151. 00:15:00 in this and there are a ton of studies and when we were chatting earlier today about how to
152. 00:15:09 I was putting together the outline for this. Oh my gosh there's no way we can cover every
153. 00:15:14 chapter like we do occasionally and there is no way that we could truly cover the entire
154. 00:15:21 like every principle that he talks about. It's just there's no way this would be a three hour long
155. 00:15:26 episode. The book itself is what 418 pages I think right 38 chapters so lots of stuff in here.
156. 00:15:36 Yeah and if we you know whenever we do the chapter by chapter thing we usually have around
157. 00:15:42 seven to ten minutes per chapter you start doing that math on 30 some chapters like that's
158. 00:15:49 what we call long. I am not talking to you about this book for six hours. Sorry.
159. 00:15:56 That's a very fair point. So what we're going to do this book is broken into five parts
160. 00:16:04 and we're going to go through each part. I have some high levels from each of those
161. 00:16:12 and a number of like personal stories that go with an explanation of what those are. So I think
162. 00:16:18 that's probably going to be the easiest way to go through this. Mike I know you have some things
163. 00:16:22 in the outline as well to cover but I just think we're going to do a disservice if we try to
164. 00:16:29 go too detailed here. Is that fair? We may do a disservice anyway but here we go.
165. 00:16:34 That very well could happen anyway. So buckle up here we go. First part in the book is two systems
166. 00:16:43 and the rest of the book is predicated on these two different modes of thinking which is of
167. 00:16:51 course fast and slow and system one and system two is how he refers to these.
168. 00:16:57 System one think of it as your intuition or your gut reactions or your instantaneous
169. 00:17:04 reactions. So these are your instincts. These are your again your reactions that you have two
170. 00:17:11 circumstances words whatever the situation like that's your instant response to whatever it is
171. 00:17:19 that's happening. System two is of course the opposite of that. So you're taking the time to
172. 00:17:26 think through something difficult. You're trying to put together your thoughts on something you are
173. 00:17:31 trying to decipher what your week is going to look like put together a task list you name it.
174. 00:17:38 So the two you know kind of examples that I have here is like whenever I was doing a lot of
175. 00:17:44 freelance work and web development work it was very common for me to be trying to
176. 00:17:49 into it or use my intuition to guide clients to a solution and that was just based on experience
177. 00:17:57 in the world of web development and it wasn't very common for me to take the time to think through
178. 00:18:05 logistically what it is they were trying to do because I had done it so much I could just
179. 00:18:08 intuitively say well you really should do xyz. So that's system one thinking in that sense.
180. 00:18:16 System two think of it as like putting together a time blocking schedule for your calendar.
181. 00:18:22 You really have to stop and think through what's important to you and what is it that you should
182. 00:18:26 be working on like that's what you need to be when you're using that system to thinking. So
183. 00:18:32 if you catch the difference there it's kind of your your gut reactions versus the hard work
184. 00:18:38 side of that system one system two which is where the title of the book comes from fast thinking
185. 00:18:44 and slow thinking fast thinking being your system one in the example he uses right at the
186. 00:18:49 beginning as you see a picture and you determine that the woman in the picture is angry slow thinking
187. 00:18:54 is the process of thoughtful steps like a math problem. So system one is going to operate
188. 00:18:59 automatically and quickly with little or no effort no sense of voluntary control system two is
189. 00:19:04 going to allocate the attention and the effort to the mental activities that demand it including
190. 00:19:08 those complex computations and this is an interesting balance for me with system one in system two I
191. 00:19:16 have to admit that the longer this book went on the less interested I got they tied together but
192. 00:19:23 this first section I feel like there there was a lot of notes that I took here and it was kind of
193. 00:19:28 interesting how you try to balance these there's because the system one system two the way he
194. 00:19:35 did titles those it seems like there's not one that's preferred over the other but the more he
195. 00:19:42 digs into this even the things that he uses to describe them like those more like system one he
196. 00:19:47 says are described as intellectually lazy those more like system two are described as engaged but
197. 00:19:51 which one do you want to be you want to be system two right so it kind of implicitly here but not
198. 00:19:57 explicitly is saying like you want to be more like system two you want to let your rational brain
199. 00:20:03 have control you don't want to be subject to emotional hijacking all of the time and just
200. 00:20:11 try to read into things and read them wrong you want to let the process work and when you do that
201. 00:20:18 you get a more complete picture a more accurate picture at least that's kind of the message I got
202. 00:20:23 from going through this this first section again he's not explicitly saying that but that's kind
203. 00:20:29 of what I got he also mentions in here interestingly the like one of the things that really stood out
204. 00:20:34 to me on page 76 he says the perception of intention and emotion is irresistible only people afflicted
205. 00:20:41 by autism do not experience it and that jumped out to me because I've worked with the family business
206. 00:20:46 which has sold software specifically to special education for a long time so a lot of our end users
207. 00:20:51 are people with autism and we used to have apps on the iOS app store which were just like the videos
208. 00:20:58 that we had created for specifically like an autistic population on video modeling the right
209. 00:21:04 way to do different things in different situations social situations for example things like that
210. 00:21:10 well and the idea being that video modeling you could teach these life skills without having the
211. 00:21:16 person be in that situation and having them be overwhelmed and freak out like for a person with
212. 00:21:22 autism for example the stimulation as you walk into a department store can be enough to just
213. 00:21:27 like overwhelm them completely and all of a sudden like they shut down and they don't see or hear
214. 00:21:32 anything they're just upset and I'm doing a poor job of describing this because there's a lot of
215. 00:21:38 science of how it gets there it's not just simply like a choice okay so I want to reiterate that
216. 00:21:42 but it's interesting to me that the intention and the emotion that you would apply to something
217. 00:21:49 that is something that your mind is ready and even eager to identify those agents and assign them
218. 00:21:55 personality traits but it's kind of broken for some people and I can totally as he's describing
219. 00:22:01 this section empathize more with them it's like oh wow if you're not able to do that then
220. 00:22:07 I can see how this would be more difficult for sure yeah I think I'm with you on the
221. 00:22:12 sense that like trying to put system one and system two together and trying to choose between
222. 00:22:18 them is kind of the way this whole thing is positioned but and there are some cases where he
223. 00:22:24 talks about this but part of me wanted him to discuss how how you could use system one the intuition
224. 00:22:32 side to help your system to thinking like the slower version of that like those two working
225. 00:22:40 together to come to something to come to a decision and such but he doesn't really do that it's always
226. 00:22:46 one or the other and how they either compete with each other or how one can sabotage the other so
227. 00:22:52 it can it can definitely come across as these two thinking models that you have to try to choose
228. 00:23:02 between when you can instead of how do you make them work together maybe that's just my perspective
229. 00:23:08 on it but I'm with you in that it's pretty obvious you should want system two thinking I think
230. 00:23:15 maybe if my slow thinking works here I think there's a lot of value in doing system two thinking but
231. 00:23:23 we tend to trust a lot of system one decisions and reactions how many times do you see on the news
232. 00:23:31 somebody's like you know somebody reacted to a scenario or an event and blow it completely out
233. 00:23:39 of proportion because they didn't take the time to think it through or pay attention to all the
234. 00:23:43 detail that goes into what happened so it's pretty easy to see this sort of thing come out whenever
235. 00:23:50 you when you start getting into it for sure yeah it's tough because he says at the beginning in the
236. 00:23:56 first chapter that when we think of ourselves we tend to think of system two but he actually says
237. 00:24:00 that system one is the hero of the story system one is the one that is constantly looking to connect
238. 00:24:08 things and to make a story out of the events that are happening to you the problem is that without
239. 00:24:14 the balance of system two you're making the story without all the facts so it's easy to get it wrong
240. 00:24:19 he mentions the mental shotgun in chapter eight and how that is the difficulty of system one not
241. 00:24:25 to do more than system two tells it to it wants to connect everything and so you got to kind of
242. 00:24:31 have a balance here you have to rein them in system one is gullible and biased to believe
243. 00:24:36 anything system two is often busy and sometimes lazy so you got a kind of free up system two to do
244. 00:24:42 what it should be doing and focus on the thing that it should be focusing on instead of trying
245. 00:24:46 to hang on to all the other stuff in the background which as i was reading this first section i realized
246. 00:24:52 right away the value of a system like gtd and why this is so appealing to people because their
247. 00:24:58 system two is trying to collect all the facts about all of the things that they're supposed to be
248. 00:25:05 doing the open loops that maybe are created and then when something happens you know they're
249. 00:25:12 scanning the horizon for the next emergency system one kicks in and so that creates a really stressful
250. 00:25:19 way to live and they want a break from that and so in my opinion after reading this that's exactly
251. 00:25:24 what gtd does is it frees up system two and that provides some relief and that's why people are
252. 00:25:28 like oh this is amazing i didn't make that connection when i read it but i like that that's a cool
253. 00:25:33 cool way to think about it for sure part two on this heuristics and biases there are a lot of these
254. 00:25:43 and i feel like each of these have either been discussed on bookworm or in other books in some
255. 00:25:49 way but because i feel like again this is one that we probably should have read a while back and
256. 00:25:56 yeah here we are and just to kind of share what some of these are i wrote three down that i think
257. 00:26:04 are of interest uh here's like sometimes we tend to extrapolate small numbers too quickly so
258. 00:26:13 a good example of this is when i was working as a data analyst it was pretty common in the fall
259. 00:26:19 it worked in agriculture so we followed the the seasonal crop uh flow like the the cycle that we
260. 00:26:28 would go through so they would plant in the spring crops would grow in the summer we would harvest in
261. 00:26:32 the fall in the fall we would start to get a lot of the data back from our testing trials all of our
262. 00:26:38 you know scientific evaluations going on on the different crops that we had out there and it was
263. 00:26:45 not uncommon for a lot of my managers and the folks that were higher up to take two or three
264. 00:26:52 wins like two or three different trials where we had one uh for our company to win they would take
265. 00:26:59 those if they came in first they would take those and show how those particular varieties or hybrids
266. 00:27:07 of our crops were winning and we would promote that in the marketing materials but as the season would
267. 00:27:14 go on we would get more and more data in and as that data would come in we'd realize that actually
268. 00:27:21 that one that we said was quite the winner has lost everything since those two or three wins but
269. 00:27:29 everybody involved just took those two or three small uh successes and blew it way out of proportion
270. 00:27:36 that's just an example of one of these biases that we have in our brains like we have a tendency to take
271. 00:27:42 a few small successes or a few small incidences and then extrapolate that out into something much
272. 00:27:51 larger that's again that's just one example within this yeah the first chapter in this section the
273. 00:27:57 law of small numbers this is where the the thing that i want to talk about in this section comes from
274. 00:28:02 and that is the uh the hot hand illusion he calls it in in basketball and he uses the word cognitive
275. 00:28:09 illusion so basically tricking your brain to think that this person has a higher chance of
276. 00:28:14 making a basket at this moment then uh then is is real and i'm curious what your response is to
277. 00:28:24 this i know you're not a huge sports fan um i am a moderate sports fan and i this feels a little bit
278. 00:28:35 wrong to me but i can't really figure out why so i was a big basketball player when i was in high
279. 00:28:41 school like that was my main sport and being the person who had a tendency to get the hot hand in
280. 00:28:52 this case so the illusion that he's saying here is we have a tendency to say that a certain athlete
281. 00:28:58 is has the hot hand or can't miss in the current you know state of the game like they get into the
282. 00:29:04 flow of that and the illusion that he's the reason he calls it an illusion is if you look at it
283. 00:29:10 statistically he's like that particular athlete the math shows that they are just as likely to
284. 00:29:21 make a shot or miss a shot even in those scenarios and i think some of what he's getting at is that
285. 00:29:27 whenever they perceive like when you perceive that somebody has a hot hand they tend to get the ball
286. 00:29:32 more often sure like that perception happens so the number of touches that that that that athlete
287. 00:29:38 has goes up thus increasing the number of times that they're going to make a basket just because
288. 00:29:46 you're giving them more shots like i think that's some of the thinking there as
289. 00:29:51 like having had the experience of catching this hot hand before and especially in basketball
290. 00:29:59 there's something to that hot hand process because you know you're coming down the court
291. 00:30:07 you get the ball you make the shot and for whatever reason you can just get the feel like that's how
292. 00:30:14 it should feel whenever i make those when i when i make the attempt at the basket like you your
293. 00:30:20 muscle memory kind of takes over when you're doing that and i feel like there are times when
294. 00:30:25 your muscles and your performance you know every time you're making the shot your muscles are
295. 00:30:31 operating in a much higher act with a much higher accuracy than other times like my sense is that
296. 00:30:38 that does happen now i don't know if that's real or not but the the feel of it is that that does
297. 00:30:45 exist yeah and that's the the issue i had with the basketball example is i feel like a hot hand in
298. 00:30:54 basketball has a lot to do with the confidence that comes from having a hot hand because at that
299. 00:31:03 moment your team is on offense you have control of the ball and you can kind of create the the best
300. 00:31:12 shot opportunities for yourself in a way that you can't with a sport like baseball so that's where
301. 00:31:21 i think this makes more sense is you've got a hitter in baseball who is on a tear and they're
302. 00:31:30 crushing it but you know that at some point later on there's going to be a slump because they're not
303. 00:31:37 just hitting off of a tee they're waiting for another variable the pitcher to pitch them the ball
304. 00:31:43 and they are skilled enough that they're going to win that battle actually the majority of the time
305. 00:31:49 a three hundred hitter three out of ten times you get a hit is considered one of the best hitters in
306. 00:31:54 the world but with basketball i think it's a little bit different because you can dribble the ball
307. 00:31:59 up the court you can have additional confidence and you can get to your spot more quickly than
308. 00:32:04 you would have otherwise and that confidence translates into better opportunities which i would
309. 00:32:09 argue give you a more likely chance to maintain a hot hand instead of just eventually this is all
310. 00:32:16 going to average out and we're going to return to the mean but maybe i'm wrong well i think that there's
311. 00:32:24 it takes stephen curry like everybody likes to use stephen curry in this scenario if you take a
312. 00:32:29 small time frame within a game there are times when stephen curry has hit ten plus three pointers in
313. 00:32:36 a row and if you were to take his shooting average in that time frame it could be like 95 percent
314. 00:32:42 but if you took it across the whole game he's going to be much lower at the 30 35 percent range
315. 00:32:50 which is normal like that's going to be a normal across the whole game now granted
316. 00:32:54 across the whole game stephen curry has a higher shooting percentage behind the three-point arc
317. 00:32:59 than than most you know that's kind of common knowledge in in today's world but if you shorten
318. 00:33:06 the time frame that you're looking at there are times when shooters have a higher percentage
319. 00:33:11 than they do across the entire game and they hit more in a specific game than others now
320. 00:33:15 is that because the defense isn't playing them correctly is that because they are more confident
321. 00:33:21 is that because for whatever reason their muscle memory is acting perfectly in that scenario
322. 00:33:28 it could be all of those things there are too many variables being played but i have a lot of
323. 00:33:33 statistical questions on why he's calling this an illusion just having been around a lot of basketball
324. 00:33:39 games and making you know that was the sport that i spent a lot of time with in high school
325. 00:33:44 and in college as well like i spent a lot of time with that one and
326. 00:33:47 i think i just disagree with him i think he's wrong on this one and to be fair he's way smarter
327. 00:33:56 than we are he's got all the research he hangs out with all the the big thinkers but i agree like
328. 00:34:02 this just didn't sit right for me at least the basketball situation now again i totally get this
329. 00:34:08 from a baseball perspective because there's other variables there and i think that's the thing that
330. 00:34:13 that changes it also with Steph Curry i want to call out i think maybe the more you rise in terms of
331. 00:34:19 your professional ability the less is this is a factor so the confidence thing for example with
332. 00:34:25 Steph Curry that almost doesn't matter by the time you get to the NBA Steph Curry maybe is an
333. 00:34:31 interesting example too because he kind of broke the NBA he's launching these three pointers that
334. 00:34:35 are 10 feet behind the three-point arc and people are like oh he's never gonna make that but he has
335. 00:34:40 he does right he doesn't make him in again and again yeah and he practices shots from the tunnel
336. 00:34:45 and the warm-up and yeah so he he believes probably not spoken to Steph Curry myself but i would i
337. 00:34:53 would venture a guess that he has the confidence every single time he shoots that the ball is going
338. 00:35:01 in that's just what he believes i don't think that is the case for the amateurs the the people who play
339. 00:35:09 pick up ball the why at at noon they don't have the confidence in their shot that
340. 00:35:15 Steph Curry does because they don't have the excellence to back that up but baseball again like that's
341. 00:35:20 interesting to me because there's a have you seen the movie money ball i have not it's i think it was
342. 00:35:27 a book first but the whole idea is that there was the the Oakland Athletics baseball team and they
343. 00:35:34 were not very good and they hired this guy who basically just crunched all the numbers looked at all the
344. 00:35:40 statistics identified the the players that were going to that they could acquire cheaply that would
345. 00:35:46 get more hits you know and they didn't look at the the home runs and the the big things like the
346. 00:35:53 home or home run specifically i mean some of that is physical how strong you are but some of it is
347. 00:35:59 just a hot hand with the the bat so they're basically like disregard these numbers focus on these
348. 00:36:04 things and they put together this team of i don't want to say no name players but they weren't like
349. 00:36:08 the big names that you would pay a ton of money for and i don't think they won but they got to the
350. 00:36:14 they got to the the world series and it was like whoa they did this with statistics and so i think
351. 00:36:20 that the law of small numbers this could totally apply as he's talking about the hot hand illusion
352. 00:36:24 this could totally apply in a baseball context but i have trouble translating that to best well he's
353. 00:36:29 probably right it just doesn't feel right to my brain yeah i i think you know you could translate
354. 00:36:34 this to the nfl as well like there was a period when ode el becom jr like he had a long streak where
355. 00:36:41 he just never dropped a ball you know he just didn't or look at patrick mohomes like he just throws the
356. 00:36:48 ball better than a lot of people like these these things do happen and he can get into the zone like
357. 00:36:54 both of these guys can get into this hot hand of sorts and it just seems like they do now
358. 00:37:00 is that because we're rejecting like we have the bias that he's referring to here we just don't
359. 00:37:07 agree with him yeah like maybe that's maybe that's true maybe we should say you know that doesn't actually
360. 00:37:12 happen but you know it if you again if you shorten the time frame and look at a smaller section of
361. 00:37:20 those games if steff curry is hitting has hit the last six or seven in a row
362. 00:37:26 i'm gonna pass in the ball like i i maybe he's gonna miss this time but that's fine he's gonna
363. 00:37:34 in my mind he has a higher chance of hitting right now than than other times but i get the whole
364. 00:37:39 statistics don't add up on that i get it sure all right heuristics and biases uh there are
365. 00:37:46 a few others here like the anchoring concept which we've talked about in the past you know
366. 00:37:50 set a number and then change where you're trying to sell things before like i've done a lot of that
367. 00:37:55 with client work in the past mention a really really high number and then back off of it a little
368. 00:38:00 bit even though the number i've backed off to is still quite high it doesn't feel that expensive
369. 00:38:07 because you anchored them at a higher number that whole concept is in here so there's there's a
370. 00:38:12 number of these i feel like if you want to know all of those details pick up the book and read it
371. 00:38:17 but there's a lot of biases that are played out because of these two different
372. 00:38:22 systems of thinking so that said part three over confidence uh basically you can develop
373. 00:38:32 confidence in something to a fault based on your system one thinking and one of the the class
374. 00:38:42 here is the the concept that hindsight is twenty twenty and how if you're looking at a given
375. 00:38:50 scenario and you are evaluating something that happened in the past it's very easy to see all
376. 00:38:56 of the little details that added up to how you got there and wonder how did they make those
377. 00:39:01 terrible decisions to lead to that catastrophe i knew you were going to say that yes absolutely
378. 00:39:07 and that that is just the way that you know we have a tendency to look at things is just that we
379. 00:39:13 when we know all of the facts it's easy to say well of course it added up to that but when you're
380. 00:39:17 in the scenario it's very very difficult to do the same preemptively so again hindsight can breed
381. 00:39:25 confidence and i think some of that is that whenever you are you know in a scenario if you
382. 00:39:33 have success like say you have three or four successes maybe this plays into the hot hand thing too
383. 00:39:39 if you have three or four successes it's easy to feel over confident and then you could have that
384. 00:39:45 failure coming next i think this is something that i dealt with quite a bit whenever i was doing
385. 00:39:50 a lot of freelance work which of course i'm not doing now but during that time i did a lot of
386. 00:39:56 different pricing scenarios in order to figure out which one would work best and i had a lot of
387. 00:40:00 success with setting a quote a set number keep in mind this wasn't software so i was setting
388. 00:40:08 a single number that i was working towards and the goal was to achieve the inlet in product before
389. 00:40:15 we reached the amount of time i had set on the quote and that was the goal and i had a lot of
390. 00:40:20 success doing that because there were a lot of times when i had quoted it say 30 hours and it took
391. 00:40:25 us 12 but the client was thrilled to death to have the product and was willing to pay for the 30 hours
392. 00:40:30 and you know we did really quite well at that but then i had a couple cases that bit me because i
393. 00:40:38 was over confident in that and misquoted a couple times and ended up putting 60 70 hours into something
394. 00:40:45 that was quoted say 25 hours and guess what you don't last long in software if you're doing that
395. 00:40:52 so basically i had the exact i screwed it up basically yeah the the hindsight bias and this is the thing
396. 00:41:02 you were talking about initially and this is the thing i want to kind of impact here this is where
397. 00:41:06 you you say i knew it all along and uh it's interesting the worst the consequences he says the greater
398. 00:41:13 the hindsight bias and this is under the chapter the illusion of understanding this uh really impacted
399. 00:41:21 me when i read it and challenged me like do i fall victim to this i'm sure i do but i want to try
400. 00:41:29 not to but it's easy to look back at things that have happened and say well obviously this is why
401. 00:41:36 things have have transpired this way he mentions by hearing the details of google's rise you get the
402. 00:41:42 feeling that you understand why it happened but in the moment no one would have predicted that
403. 00:41:48 and as i was reading this i also thought back to principles by ray dahlio it would be interesting
404. 00:41:52 to hear his perspective on this because he mentions that he made a living predicting things
405. 00:41:59 so uh and there were sometimes when he got it right sometimes when he got it wrong i wonder what
406. 00:42:04 what he would say about the hindsight bias and how that applied to how he worked you know how he
407. 00:42:13 fought against that that sort of thing it's interesting you bring up ray dahlio because one of the
408. 00:42:18 one of the chapters a little bit later is talking about formulas instead of using your intuition
409. 00:42:24 yeah because your intuition can you know mislead you if you're just going off of emotion and such
410. 00:42:30 but if you develop formulas for things they're more reliable and that is the exact process that
411. 00:42:38 bridgewater ray dahlio's company went towards it's a core principle that they have in trying to work
412. 00:42:46 through historical information and historical data in order to put together these formulas and
413. 00:42:51 algorithms and such to develop what their predictions are going to be so they're using history and
414. 00:42:58 using that as a predictor but it's all formula based whenever you know you run across investors
415. 00:43:06 and such that say you know i can i can beat the market you know my my intuition helps me beat the
416. 00:43:11 market nope i can't can't say i'd give him any money yeah like that's i have much more inclined
417. 00:43:18 to give ray dahlio my entire life savings to invest than i would somebody who i i run across that says
418. 00:43:27 oh yeah i've i've been beating the market for the last five years you know i'll i'll continue to do
419. 00:43:32 so like no uh-oh i'm not gonna go that route the the interesting thing about that though is that
420. 00:43:39 maybe they have been beating the market for five years and it's based off of a formula that they
421. 00:43:43 came up with but i would argue there still has to be some intuition as to why the formula works
422. 00:43:50 if the formula was so obvious and it was literally just plug and play then i feel like there'd be
423. 00:43:55 more people who would who would use that sort of thing to create a track record of success so that
424. 00:44:02 they could say even if it's just from a marketing perspective look i know how to beat the market
425. 00:44:07 even if they're not the one doing it even if all they're doing is working the formula
426. 00:44:10 why would the formula be so hard to uncover and i maybe that's a very naive question that very
427. 00:44:19 well could be i understand that but it just seems to me that there's there are people like you said
428. 00:44:28 who really do believe that their intuition is going to be better but the people who maybe
429. 00:44:34 aren't using their intuition but still get the success there would be a tendency to frame it the
430. 00:44:39 same way so it's hard from the user side you're trying to decide who to who to work with you know
431. 00:44:46 how you can separate those two unless they write a 800 page book like ritalia did
432. 00:44:51 but see there's a bias in that as well that he talks about with you know true you know
433. 00:44:57 if it's more complex we have a tendency to trust it because if it's more complex it must have had
434. 00:45:03 a lot more thought and time put into it in order to have success as opposed to a simple model yep
435. 00:45:10 which could likely have a lot more value to it because it's simple and more reliable so
436. 00:45:15 so what do you do which way do you go here yeah and in that chapter on the illusion of validity
437. 00:45:22 where he says that picking stocks is like rolling the dice and that two out of three mutual funds
438. 00:45:26 underperform the average on a given year and basically just trust the formula he has a section
439. 00:45:32 on the hedgehog and the fox now i know that these terms come from i believe it's good to
440. 00:45:40 great by jim kalnes which i haven't read i feel like that's another one of those books that we
441. 00:45:45 need to read just to say that we did it right because there's a bunch of stuff in there i know
442. 00:45:50 people have brought it up over and over and over again so i know kind of like the ideas or some of
443. 00:45:54 the ideas that are in that book but i haven't actually read it but the hedgehog in the fox
444. 00:46:00 how this applies to these biases i i think this is interesting too because the hedgehog he says
445. 00:46:05 they know one big thing they've got a theory about the world that's the type of person that you
446. 00:46:10 would typically gravitate to in the financial advisor situation you want somebody who lives
447. 00:46:14 and breathes this stuff right but he's saying in this book that that's actually a bad thing
448. 00:46:19 they account for particular events with a coherent framework they bristle up people who don't see
449. 00:46:23 things their way they're confident in their forecast they basically are
450. 00:46:27 are so trusting their experience that they don't understand the other factors that could lead to
451. 00:46:34 them being wrong and the fox that's the complex thinker they recognize that reality emerges
452. 00:46:39 from the interactions of many different agents and forces they're the ones who are less likely to
453. 00:46:44 be invited to participate in the television debates but they have a more complete picture of the
454. 00:46:48 the world so how do you reconcile that i don't i don't have an answer but that's just what i
455. 00:46:53 was thinking when i read that section and it's interesting too because uh from what i have heard
456. 00:46:57 people talk about the hedgehog in the fox when it comes to business you want to be more like the
457. 00:47:02 hedgehog you want to specialize you want to do one thing really well and uh apparently in this
458. 00:47:08 this section when you're one thing is convincing people that you know how to beat the market at least
459. 00:47:13 you don't want to be like the hedgehog yeah i think david epsstein with his book range would
460. 00:47:19 you know argue with you on the specialization process true true yeah i i understand that and
461. 00:47:25 you know that's probably another conversation for another time as it pertains to to business
462. 00:47:29 specifically but i do think there is some truth in that where if you're going to get a job done
463. 00:47:34 you want someone who knows how to do that job really well and you don't want somebody who knows
464. 00:47:40 how to do a bunch of different things okay you want to solve the problem that you are facing in the
465. 00:47:47 best way possible and so hiring somebody who is mediocre at this and mediocre at that when all
466. 00:47:53 you really want to solve is this you know that that's there is some truth to that as well so part four
467. 00:48:00 choices and probably the the best way i know to summarize this is that we are terrible at making
468. 00:48:08 choices we're we're bad at making decisions you know we read a book on decision-making chip and
469. 00:48:16 dan heath and i was kind of reflecting on that before we started recording here in this particular
470. 00:48:23 part in thinking fast and slow like because in decision-making they're talking about
471. 00:48:32 it's a decision-making or decisions decisive that's what it is and in decisive they're
472. 00:48:37 they're basically counteracting all of the things he talks about here
473. 00:48:42 you know how we we have a tendency to make decisions to prevent a loss even though
474. 00:48:50 you know cutting your losses can be a very good thing at times we we tend to not want to to do that
475. 00:48:58 so it is interesting how we're really bad at this we have a tendency to take
476. 00:49:03 some rare events and think that they are more common just because in our small world they have
477. 00:49:10 been talked about more even though they may only be quite small you know one of the one of the things
478. 00:49:17 i've run across that kind of pertains to this is if you're walking through the mall how many times
479. 00:49:22 have you seen the car that's in the the hallway and you could win the car like if you fill out the thing
480. 00:49:29 you could win the car yeah and you're walking with somebody and you said hey you want to fill this out
481. 00:49:34 and like oh no no i don't want that car well if you had it would you sell it like that that's what
482. 00:49:42 always goes through my mind is like well yes i don't want a Ford Taurus but if someone gave me a 2020
483. 00:49:49 Ford Taurus i would drive it to a sales yard and sell it with a hundred miles on it
484. 00:49:56 and i would end up with more than what i have right now like it's still it's still a good deal
485. 00:50:03 in that sense but yet we don't make that choice because you look at it and you think you don't want
486. 00:50:08 it you know i've seen this also play out in cases where like the radio show has a thing where you
487. 00:50:15 could win and if you win you get the choice between either Caribbean cruise or you know a new car is
488. 00:50:22 a common one or you know some expensive you know whatever it is and a lot of times people like oh
489. 00:50:28 i've always wanted to go on a Caribbean cruise and they pick that not realizing that you know the
490. 00:50:34 cost involved with say the new like the price of the new car is significantly more than the Caribbean
491. 00:50:39 cruise but the cruise sounds more expensive so they tend to pick that so we're not good at making
492. 00:50:45 choices that's my point no another reason that we're not good at making choices is that there's
493. 00:50:52 this loss of version that he talks about the ratio he says typically 1.5 to 2.5 so if you have
494. 00:50:58 something you overvalue it at 1.5 to 2.5 times compared to the cost to acquire something
495. 00:51:06 and that was interesting but i'm not quite sure how to apply that practically the thing that really
496. 00:51:14 got me thinking in this section actually started in the previous section he talks about the intuition
497. 00:51:20 and formulas and he says the public has hostility towards algorithms which is magnified when the
498. 00:51:25 decisions are consequential and then in this section there's a chapter on rare events and this is
499. 00:51:35 the the small risks that trigger things in our brains like he used the example i think this was
500. 00:51:42 a chapter at the very beginning how when he was in Israel and there were um terrorists who were
501. 00:51:49 bombing the the buses and he said that that affected people's behavior even though the chances
502. 00:51:55 of being on a bus that got bombed is very small and the way he framed that is almost like what's
503. 00:52:00 wrong with you people why don't you think about this and rationally in the percent chance that
504. 00:52:05 you're going to die while you're taking the bus and he even kind of told this this self-deprecating
505. 00:52:10 story of he found himself slipping into that sort of thinking and like kind of chiding himself for
506. 00:52:15 doing so and i was like i wouldn't ride the bus yeah for sure and that's a little bit see again
507. 00:52:22 though he would say this is the same thing i think it's a little bit different where like after 9/11
508. 00:52:27 people like well i'm not going to fly i don't really see those as the same thing maybe they are just
509. 00:52:33 a smaller percentage i guess but the thing that the thing that stands out to me around this is the
510. 00:52:42 the pushback that people have to the self-driving cars and i know that uh on cortex i talk about this
511. 00:52:53 fairly often and gray is always taking the side of the algorithm and how it's more safe but we will
512. 00:53:01 focus on the story and the small risk so if there is even one instance of the machine that killed a
513. 00:53:09 person it gets magnified and it has more weight and he didn't speak to the self-driving cars thing in
514. 00:53:16 this particular book but that's the example that i thought of and i think that personally
515. 00:53:25 it's okay to value those things more highly i don't think you have to just take the side of
516. 00:53:33 the algorithm and say well it's a poor choice to to outlaw these self-driving cars as long as there
517. 00:53:40 is a risk that the machines will do the killing instead of other people because it's going to be
518. 00:53:46 significantly less than if we just let people do the thing that just feels there feels like you
519. 00:53:51 the the statistics don't take into consideration i guess the the moral or the ethical aspects of
520. 00:54:00 that which i feel are valid but don't get credit in this discussion i feel like it's very different if
521. 00:54:10 somebody screwed up a piece of code and there's a bug in the algorithm that keeps the car on the road
522. 00:54:16 and it drives the car off the road and kills the people in the car that's different than
523. 00:54:24 if somebody makes a miscalculation in a car and hits another car even if the result is the same that
524. 00:54:32 there is a loss of life correct correct say the same number of people die and have the same
525. 00:54:37 injuries it's different when a computer did it than if another person did it if another person
526. 00:54:43 did it you know who to blame like that person made a mistake they made an error in judgment and
527. 00:54:47 that person is at fault here what does the officer do when he's coming to a scene and it's the car's fault
528. 00:54:55 that someone was killed like what is you know what's his reaction supposed to be his or her
529. 00:55:02 reaction supposed to be to that i don't know i mean that's that's we i mean there are cases when
530. 00:55:08 there's a mechanical malfunction and that happens i mean those cases occur in which case people have
531. 00:55:17 you know the the lash against the manufacturer maybe this is the same as that but it seems very
532. 00:55:25 different when it's a computer versus you know a steering column broke as you're driving down the
533. 00:55:30 road like that feels very different for some reason and i think you're right there is an ethical and
534. 00:55:35 moral aspect to that but i don't know that that is discussed near as often as the sheer statistics
535. 00:55:44 behind the safety on it i know it's safer technically but me as somewhat of a car person
536. 00:55:52 i don't want that car controlling that's i i want control of it so that's but that's me
537. 00:56:00 yeah and i wonder if some of this if we have any international listeners it would be great to get
538. 00:56:05 their perspective on this i wonder how much of this is like an american bias because it's in our
539. 00:56:10 constitution right life liberty and the pursuit of happiness right so we feel that we have a right
540. 00:56:15 to pursue those things and if somebody else makes a mistake and it costs us those things
541. 00:56:21 we'll deal with that but just saying i am a slave to the algorithm and we're here in the matrix
542. 00:56:28 and whatever is going to happen is going to happen feels wrong at least to us i think that's fair
543. 00:56:33 but again i think coming back to your point here like we have to make choices about
544. 00:56:38 if we're going to adopt these things or not being someone who gets kind of into cars and
545. 00:56:46 pays attention to the car community and such the concept of self-driving cars is of very little
546. 00:56:53 interest to me like in driving one and i i know there are people who when they buy a car there
547. 00:57:01 people who can get into the computer systems of those and and tweak them and it's pretty common it
548. 00:57:06 seems like for people to buy brand new sporty cars and one of the first things they do is plug
549. 00:57:12 into computer and disable a lot of the the computer systems that are designed to help keep you on
550. 00:57:17 the road or make sure you don't spin out like they go in and turn all that stuff off so yeah that's
551. 00:57:23 an interesting aspect to this i forgot about because you definitely know all of the stuff that
552. 00:57:31 influences the algorithms and there are many areas in your life where you have chosen to overwrite
553. 00:57:35 them with manual processes anyway yes yes for sure yeah like in in my specific case like there's
554. 00:57:42 there is nothing there's no smart home tech in my house at all i i do not want any of that in our
555. 00:57:50 house and and that's a choice i've made because i don't want these other companies having access to
556. 00:57:56 my day-to-day physical life you know they track enough of my digital presence and i i don't want
557. 00:58:04 them tracking all the stuff i do day-to-day now some people are willing to make that trade off and
558. 00:58:09 they think it's well worth it go for it you know the the more of that data they collect the more
559. 00:58:14 they're able to start changing prices for people based on your living habits and i don't like that
560. 00:58:20 so i'm opting out of it but with the car thing like i love the feel of it like i love the feel of a
561. 00:58:28 hand grinder when i'm grinding coffee as opposed to just throwing it at a machine and hitting a button
562. 00:58:32 like so i do that i love the feel of fountain pens instead of ballpoints like so i use a lot of
563. 00:58:37 fountain pens and now mike has eclipsed me in into the whole fountain pen habit so
564. 00:58:42 this these are things that we have a tendency to make choices on and you know you're reasoning
565. 00:58:49 behind that i you know there is a lot of touch and feel at least for me in a lot of these cases
566. 00:58:54 that we're referring to i have no idea how we got here but making these choices is something it's
567. 00:58:59 difficult and we tend to feel our way through that and a lot of those feels are the the system
568. 00:59:04 one thinking in the the gut reaction type i think that's that's what we tend to
569. 00:59:09 to use for some of those decisions for sure and that's not i would argue a bad thing at this point
570. 00:59:16 of the book it kind of feels like he's saying you should just let the algorithm do its work
571. 00:59:21 and i'm kind of like no i don't want to let the algorithm do its work right maybe that is because
572. 00:59:27 i have not achieved the same intellectual enlightenment that he has but i think there's a lot of people
573. 00:59:35 who would feel the same way and we have to recognize on the other hand though that these things are
574. 00:59:40 happening so in this chapter on the rare events take the technology aspect out of it for example
575. 00:59:45 he uses the small risks triggering denominator neglect where we focus on a single bad event like
576. 00:59:51 a child being disabled from a vaccination does that mean that you shouldn't vaccinate your kids because
577. 00:59:57 one kid got sick and i'm not going to go any further than that with that example by the way
578. 01:00:02 i was like whoo he's being bold here but uh but i because these are things that people need to i
579. 01:00:09 believe identify where you stand for yourself and there should be an aspect of i recognize that my
580. 01:00:17 system one is telling me this story but it's not the whole story but that doesn't mean that the
581. 01:00:22 only right option is to go the other way and say well i'll just trust the algorithm i think that
582. 01:00:28 there is some middle ground here for very valid beliefs in whatever the area happens to be and
583. 01:00:35 at this point in the book anyways it feels like he doesn't really leave any room for that and that's
584. 01:00:40 probably unfair you know but that was my impression from reading the book i think if you're going to
585. 01:00:48 when he's saying trust the algorithms for this you have to trust the people writing the algorithms
586. 01:00:54 too like that that is a piece that we have a tendency to ignore and you know take facebook
587. 01:01:01 sorry to keep bringing this back to tech facebook has a lot of algorithms that they use to decide
588. 01:01:08 what posts to show you do you feel like facebook has your best interests in mind yeah true if the
589. 01:01:15 answer is yes by all means trust their algorithm if the answer is no you're going to completely
590. 01:01:21 reject not only the algorithm but the company that wrote it so i think a lot of it comes down
591. 01:01:27 to that you know whenever they they put together a lot of this it's you have to trust not only
592. 01:01:32 the math model but the people writing it yeah and to to be fair you know the trust the algorithm
593. 01:01:40 that's something that we used here based on the chapter where he was talking about intuition
594. 01:01:46 and algorithms and how algorithms are more accurate and in this chapter really what he's saying is
595. 01:01:52 make rational decisions but rational decisions it seems like he defines as the ones with the
596. 01:01:58 greatest percentage of creating the outcome that you want so the rational decision when it comes to
597. 01:02:06 self-driving cars would be use self-driving cars because you're less likely to get into an
598. 01:02:11 accident and that's where the breakdown happens yeah that's a fair point to make for sure all right
599. 01:02:17 let's step into part five the two selves and the two selves he's referring to here is the
600. 01:02:24 experiencing self and the remembering self and this this is something i have a tendency to use
601. 01:02:32 quite often whenever we're putting together events at our church because i always make the point that
602. 01:02:38 the first impression at the event how you start the event is extremely important and the way you
603. 01:02:45 end the event is extremely important and you could have an okay event in the middle but people have
604. 01:02:52 a tendency to remember the beginning and the end and the experience in the middle doesn't always
605. 01:02:59 matter it does matter but not as much if you're trying to create an an impression and his thing
606. 01:03:06 here is whenever you're looking at something an experience that just happened it's quite often
607. 01:03:13 that the thing that happens at the end is the thing that can trigger our memory of the whole
608. 01:03:20 experience even if 95% of the whole thing was extremely positive and the best you've ever had in
609. 01:03:26 your life like that experience will oftentimes be forgotten because the last five percent was
610. 01:03:33 horrible so so you have to be careful with that but those are the two selves that he's uh that he's
611. 01:03:40 talking about here so you're saying we got to be careful how we end this podcast right exactly
612. 01:03:45 don't screw it up mike all right yeah i like this experiencing self versus the remembering self
613. 01:03:51 he he does a great job of explaining this and i could totally see how this applies in a lot of
614. 01:03:57 different areas he uses the example of pain at the beginning where the experiencing self would ask
615. 01:04:04 would answer the question how much does it hurt now remembering self would remember how was it on
616. 01:04:09 the whole also in here is the the the fact that the remembering self doesn't always remember
617. 01:04:19 accurately but it's also the one that makes the decisions so as you think back on something like
618. 01:04:23 you said how you end it is going to be really important because that's what your remembering
619. 01:04:27 self is going to remember and that's going to determine whether it wants to do that thing or
620. 01:04:32 put you in that position again even if it's an inaccurate representation of what actually
621. 01:04:39 transpired there now there's a story that i heard from somebody at a conference i attended once
622. 01:04:46 he told the story from the stage of how when he was young he grew up in the south he used to catch
623. 01:04:52 grasshoppers in a jar and then when you put the grasshopper in the jar at first it would try to
624. 01:04:59 jump out and it would hit its head on the lid so after a little while it would stop jumping and at
625. 01:05:04 that point you know he'd shake the jar and the grasshopper would go nuts try to get out again
626. 01:05:08 and he he said that if you do that enough times you can take the grasshopper out of the jar because
627. 01:05:15 it's hit its head so many times that's what it's remembering the remembering self is
628. 01:05:20 i try to get away and i hit my head and you do that enough and you can take the grasshopper put it in
629. 01:05:26 the presence of its natural enemy the fire ants and the fire ants will just will devour the grasshopper
630. 01:05:31 even though the grasshopper now is no longer in the jar and it can jump to safety his point was that
631. 01:05:38 we get we get used to the confines of a temporary lid on our lives and then we've we hit our head
632. 01:05:44 enough times we we stop trying to do big things but i think that that's the story that i immediately
633. 01:05:51 thought of when i thought about the experiencing self and the remembering self because the remembering
634. 01:05:54 self for that grasshopper is i try to get away i hit my head it's useless it's pointless but the
635. 01:06:01 experiencing self would look around and see the situation accurately and recognize that i can
636. 01:06:07 totally get to freedom i don't have to stay here and the challenge is me that particular story
637. 01:06:12 as it pertains to the experiencing and the remembering self to look back at things that have shaped
638. 01:06:17 the way that i see the world and was that accurate was that a negative picture that i latched onto
639. 01:06:24 with my remembering self and that's why i don't try to do these things or i dislike these experiences
640. 01:06:30 and if somebody says hey let's go do this thing my natural reaction is like no i don't want to do
641. 01:06:34 that i feel like i need to do a better job and not an action item associated with this necessarily
642. 01:06:42 but fighting back against remembering self and trying to see things for what they really are
643. 01:06:48 i feel like that's really hard to do it is which is why you know i i reacted so strongly when i
644. 01:06:55 when i read that it's like i know that this is a this is a big task but i also feel like it's
645. 01:07:00 important yeah it made me think back to frankly a number of negative experiences i've had in the
646. 01:07:07 past and trying to think through like okay yes that was bad the whole thing ended horribly
647. 01:07:14 and i still remember how bad it was but there were a lot of good things that came before that and
648. 01:07:21 trying to you know force myself to think through you know the positive side of that probably the
649. 01:07:29 the most prominent example of that that i can think of is that you know a handful of years ago my
650. 01:07:37 parents divorced and i was married at the time so it was a bit of a blow to me when it happened and
651. 01:07:47 i have had kind of some less than pleasant opinions on my parents since that time and
652. 01:07:56 it is very easy for me to neglect the decades of positive experiences you know with my parents
653. 01:08:06 leading up to that time yes i had a great childhood i loved my parents still do and i think they were
654. 01:08:14 awesome but for whatever reason that divorce has completely you know it makes it very hard to
655. 01:08:21 continue focusing on all those positives because of that strong negative at the end there now
656. 01:08:27 granted it's not over like my parents are still around i love them dearly just getting that out there
657. 01:08:35 but it does kind of taint things and make things difficult and it's easy to look back on a childhood
658. 01:08:43 and question everything when that happens especially when it's later in your own life so
659. 01:08:49 just you know that's the concept here is that you know the way things in can have a strong impact on
660. 01:08:55 the the memory of the entire whole there yes absolutely another interesting thing in this section i
661. 01:09:04 thought was the the thinking about life at the very end and what i got out of this chapter was
662. 01:09:13 basically his attempt to answer what are the factors that contribute to overall happiness
663. 01:09:17 and one of the things that he mentioned in here is goals and you know how i feel about goals so
664. 01:09:25 you love them oh yeah what was your reaction to this section it kind of justified me in not
665. 01:09:35 wanting goals you know we've we've talked about goal setting and visions and this you know even
666. 01:09:44 with making it all work and david allen like it can become very goal-based and you know when we've
667. 01:09:53 had conversations with authors and we've read a number of systems books and such it seems like
668. 01:09:59 goals are things that people talk about a lot but probably the biggest you know breath of fresh
669. 01:10:06 air that we've had in recent months is uh james clear's atomic habits and how building in habits
670. 01:10:15 can help you achieve those goals and not worrying about the deadlines just letting the habit take
671. 01:10:20 care of it like that has been you know pretty big at least in my own life but it justifies my
672. 01:10:29 lack of interest in goal setting for sure i didn't know what to do with this because on the one hand
673. 01:10:35 i can see how it contributes to overall happiness as he defines it in this book where if you have a
674. 01:10:44 goal if you have a picture of the type of life that you want to live you are more likely to achieve
675. 01:10:50 that state it's not going to happen by accident obviously we take issue with the term goals because
676. 01:10:57 we believe habits are a better way to create that state or that vision but i also think it's not as
677. 01:11:04 simple as just swapping out the terms vision for for goals and saying there i fixed it for you
678. 01:11:10 uh i feel like the way that he defines goals is very much in line with the standard goal setting
679. 01:11:19 framework that people are typically used to and not to rehash everything that we've talked about
680. 01:11:24 with goals but the big issue with that is so you set a goal so what you know every every team in the
681. 01:11:31 mba has set a goal to win the championship this year and only one of them is going to so by having
682. 01:11:38 that goal by definition 31 of the 32 teams or however many teams that are in the mba are going
683. 01:11:44 to fail at their goal so they are failures right but you can change that you can frame it differently
684. 01:11:53 you can say i'm going to create a habit of excellence and i'm going to continue to work on my craft
685. 01:11:57 and eventually that's going to culminate in me winning a championship that's a little bit different
686. 01:12:03 i don't know what to make of this uh had a weird feeling as i ended this book he kind of talks about
687. 01:12:13 the one of the very last things is this focusing illusion where nothing in life is as important
688. 01:12:18 as you think it is when you are thinking about it and again this kind of leads you back into the
689. 01:12:24 story of just trust the algorithm everything's going to even out in the end and i don't like that
690. 01:12:30 i feel like the majority of the personal and professional success i have had has been
691. 01:12:39 the result of creating the motivation to do things that i didn't necessarily think
692. 01:12:47 rationally were possible and that has created a lot of opportunities that i never would have
693. 01:12:54 envisioned and the sense that you get from going through this book is like well i haven't taken some
694. 01:13:02 big chances and this is kind of justification for not doing that because 35% of small businesses
695. 01:13:08 are going to fail within five years anyways so i guess i was right in not trying to launch that
696. 01:13:13 thing and i don't know how to reconcile this i feel like i don't i'm not smart enough
697. 01:13:20 articulate enough to argue back necessarily so it's a good thing daniel conneman isn't on this
698. 01:13:26 podcast or he'd be talking circles around me but that's fair i do feel personally just
699. 01:13:33 there's it's kind of dangerous to to think this way i think that uh what is it tod Henry
700. 01:13:43 in uh die empty he kind of talks about how um like decisive action is what changes the world
701. 01:13:51 and what creates decisive action it's not the average or the mean or the mathematical equations
702. 01:13:58 behind what we do and so i don't know from my perspective i would say check the formula you
703. 01:14:05 don't even know what's possible like see what happens don't just take the safe bet all the time
704. 01:14:12 and maybe daniel conneman would argue that the safe bet is actually to try the things sometimes
705. 01:14:17 and uh we we based on the statistics will be so scared of losing what we currently have that
706. 01:14:25 we won't see he talks about that one of these one of these chapters we get so attached to what we
707. 01:14:29 know that we don't want to change you know that that's an aspect to this but i feel like the overall
708. 01:14:35 message is kind of like just chill and i would say just go for it sure there is there is an element
709. 01:14:44 like anyone who has had any form of success will tell you failures or what drove their success
710. 01:14:52 you know it's it's the constant trying and the constant failing that eventually leads to the
711. 01:14:58 success that they've had i don't feel like he addresses the the value of experience and working
712. 01:15:07 through things that are difficult or that are likely to fail for the experience and the learning
713. 01:15:14 that can come from that that's not really addressed in any form here which i kind of want him to i
714. 01:15:20 i'd be curious in his view on it i don't know why he left it out you know 400 pages you'd think that
715. 01:15:25 would come up but it didn't plus a bonus study at the end yeah yeah there's a couple of those at the
716. 01:15:33 end um there is i think a lot of value in being willing to try something and letting it fail
717. 01:15:41 and being willing to step on beyond that to try again you know maybe there's a 75% chance the small
718. 01:15:50 business is going to fail that's okay i'm i'm all right with that you know as long as you have
719. 01:15:55 you know some some fail-safes of sorts you know you're not going to end up in jail you're not going
720. 01:16:02 to end up without food on the table like as long as you have some of those backups in place an
721. 01:16:08 emergency fund of sorts like i'm fine taking those risks you know i've done it for a number of years
722. 01:16:14 now maybe that's just my opinion on it but i think you do have to be willing to step out there and
723. 01:16:21 take the chance because you know you're not you're not going to get anywhere if you don't at least try
724. 01:16:27 yeah uh so going back to the google example i think this was from the story that he told way back
725. 01:16:34 in part three on overconfidence they mentioned that as google was rising they had a deal in place
726. 01:16:44 to sell the company for a million dollars that fell through the company that was going to acquire
727. 01:16:49 them backed out and isn't that fortunate for the people who grew google to what it is today
728. 01:16:57 and i feel like that's the kind of thing where if you prescribe to the formula or the algorithm
729. 01:17:04 or the rational thinking you will always take that bet and you will never know what is truly
730. 01:17:10 possible if you stick with some things the 75 percent chance that the business is going to fail i
731. 01:17:16 agree like you don't want to bet your family's well-being on you know i want to go try this thing
732. 01:17:21 and it's going to and if it works great but if it doesn't we're in big trouble yeah you don't want
733. 01:17:27 to do that but also as long as you have as long as you have uh as long as you have recognized the
734. 01:17:38 risks and you are okay with them that you are seeing them the correct way that system two is
735. 01:17:43 doing its job at that point don't focus on the 75 percent chance that it is going to fail because
736. 01:17:50 if you focus on that 75 percent chance that it's going to fail it's almost like a self-fulfilling
737. 01:17:54 prophecy at that point because you're not going to sync everything that you have into it in terms of
738. 01:18:01 your energy and like you're not going to give it the the tlc that it needs to really get off of the
739. 01:18:06 ground it's gonna fail you're going to say well there see i knew it was going to fail and you
740. 01:18:11 would be right like there's a different mindset that the entrepreneurs that he talked about in this
741. 01:18:17 section have to have in order for that thing to get off the ground i would argue and as long as you
742. 01:18:23 remain anchored on the percentages you're kind of doomed from the start in a lot of cases yes agreed
743. 01:18:34 so all of this said did you come out of this with any action items Mike
744. 01:18:40 no i did not i didn't either lots of information nothing specifically that i was like oh yeah i'm
745. 01:18:50 gonna start doing this which is kind of interesting because he talks about a lot of different biases
746. 01:18:56 and i kind of anticipated that as i was going through these biases i would find one that just
747. 01:19:00 really spoke to me and i'm like oh this is what i got to do to fight against this one and the only
748. 01:19:07 one that i really really felt like okay i need to do something about was the experiencing self
749. 01:19:13 versus remembering self and as we talked about what do you really do with that right right you
750. 01:19:19 try to correct it when it happens but there really isn't anything concrete that you can do and a lot
751. 01:19:26 of the other ones i found myself saying well i see what you're saying but what about this part
752. 01:19:30 of it i'm not sure i agree so right yeah no action items for me all right fair enough so
753. 01:19:36 style and rating i'll jump in first here i i will say he's a pretty good writer in that this is a
754. 01:19:46 pretty easy i felt one to sit down and read but i think to your point there are a lot of questions
755. 01:19:54 that are left out it's very evident he's a researcher that he loves doing the science side of it and
756. 01:20:02 if you look at the appendices and the the the reference notes that he has in the back of this
757. 01:20:08 it is extensive as you would expect from a scientist so he has a lot of the background there and if you
758. 01:20:18 are a science nerd go nuts i think this is for you i i think that it's possible that he has you know
759. 01:20:29 fallen into one of these biases or one of these thinking models in that he he hasn't really
760. 01:20:36 looked at every single aspect that could have happened in each of those scientific studies this
761. 01:20:44 is one of the things that i tend to get hung up on whenever i read these studies is that there are
762. 01:20:50 a lot of times some external circumstances or outside players in the the view that they're looking
763. 01:21:00 at that aren't considered and when you don't look at every aspect within the study which i will
764. 01:21:07 say is hard to do like that is not i'm not just saying that flippantly like that it is a difficult
765. 01:21:13 thing to look at every single aspect but it seems like a lot of the studies that are used as the
766. 01:21:18 core base here kind of have some flaws to them and have some pretty core things like what we're
767. 01:21:26 talking about you know shortening up the time frame on when you're looking at the hot hand illusion
768. 01:21:32 you know if you do shorten that up instead of looking at the overall there i feel like this
769. 01:21:40 the data changes but that wasn't addressed and at least to me that seems like a fairly obvious
770. 01:21:45 thing maybe that's the hindsight bias coming through i don't know maybe that's me uh but
771. 01:21:50 i find myself disagreeing with him on a number of points which i don't know if that's
772. 01:21:56 a disagreement with the science or a disagreement with the way he presented it or
773. 01:22:05 an argument against the way that he structured the book i'm not really sure what's at play there
774. 01:22:11 but i found myself arguing with him quite a bit uh and wondering and questioning him on a fair
775. 01:22:19 number of points how to rate that with that in mind i i feel like is a little bit tricky if
776. 01:22:26 why are we having all the we've had a lot of books lately that are really hard to rate
777. 01:22:29 i don't know if that's just because we're doing a lot of books we have a lot more that are wide
778. 01:22:34 ranging lately but this is a long one at 400 plus pages this isn't one that is simple to just sit
779. 01:22:42 down and read in a week like the one that we're getting ready to read um it does make it a bit
780. 01:22:48 tricky i think in my case there are a lot of things that i find in this that are helpful to know
781. 01:22:54 he has a lot of things that it spot on like i definitely agree with him he has a handful of
782. 01:22:59 things a number of things that i disagree with but i think as far as an overall book
783. 01:23:04 i think i'll put it at a 3.5 i think there's a lot of value in having read it i will not read this again
784. 01:23:11 i'm probably not going to recommend it in very many scenarios i feel like there are a number of
785. 01:23:17 other books that can cover a lot of the same thing maybe that's because he pioneered it i don't know
786. 01:23:22 i don't know how that actually played out but i don't think this is one that i get super super
787. 01:23:29 excited about but i like having read it but it sparked a lot of conversation here at least
788. 01:23:36 so i i think i'll stop there i i'll put it at the 3.5 all right i had high hopes for this book because
789. 01:23:46 we have heard about it in a lot of other books that we have read i don't know what i expected when
790. 01:23:54 i went into it but i kind of thought i guess that it wouldn't be broken down into all of these
791. 01:24:04 little chunks which told different aspects of the story i understand why he framed the book the way
792. 01:24:11 he did organize it the way he did but i feel like the little things that he talks about in the
793. 01:24:17 individual chapters that's kind of the stuff that people latched onto and i don't have a specific
794. 01:24:23 example of this but from the books that we read and i feel like the the details became a little bit
795. 01:24:32 overwhelming as you went on and unless you were trying to go back and find the coherent story
796. 01:24:40 but between everything that he's saying which is why i take notes in a mind map format
797. 01:24:45 so that i can do that more easily it's easy to kind of lose sight of the system one versus system
798. 01:24:51 two which is really the big message throughout all of this this book especially towards the end
799. 01:24:56 you kind of get into all of the biases and the things that you do wrong and you end up feeling like
800. 01:25:04 well my brain's just working against me there's nothing i can do i'm a slave to the algorithm
801. 01:25:11 again not i'm sure what he intended but that was the emotional reaction i had as i went through
802. 01:25:18 this which that in and of itself he addresses in this book he talks about emotional hijacking
803. 01:25:23 so i i get that you know trying to focus on the coherent message and the details of everything
804. 01:25:30 that he says in this book is hard because there are over 400 pages in it and i i get the the way
805. 01:25:38 that he wrote this if i was trying to accomplish the same goal i would probably tackle it the same
806. 01:25:43 way he in a way this is like his life's work he's done all of this research on the topic
807. 01:25:50 he's worked with all of these crazy smart people they've done all of these tests and he's trying
808. 01:25:54 to condense all of this down into this is everything that i know on the topic of system one system two
809. 01:26:01 thinking fast and slow but for the average person who is not a researcher i feel like i've said this
810. 01:26:07 over and over again the one that comes to mind is like the dan awryly uh predictably irrational
811. 01:26:12 which uh i was not a big fan of this kind of struck me the same way for the right person
812. 01:26:19 this is going to be easy to read you mentioned that it was he's he's a good writer it's easy to read
813. 01:26:24 i agree with that from a researcher perspective but compared to a lot of the books that we read
814. 01:26:28 i honestly had some trouble with this one sure maybe part of that was the fact that i knew that
815. 01:26:33 there were 400 more pages coming and we're going to talk about this and i i dreaded that a little bit
816. 01:26:39 but uh i don't know it's interesting to me when i have a negative reaction to a book like this because
817. 01:26:45 i don't i need to ask myself why i feel like the stuff that he's talking about are things that i
818. 01:26:52 am interested in but i found myself reacting to the way that he presented them by being
819. 01:26:56 disinterested if that makes any sense and i feel like a lot of that is just the total emphasis on
820. 01:27:04 the research and this one it's hard to argue against that because that's basically what he's
821. 01:27:08 saying is like you got to look at the numbers you can't necessarily trust the stories but i miss
822. 01:27:14 the stories i wish that there were more stories he told a couple of stories a couple interesting
823. 01:27:20 ones near the end uh about a discussion he was having with his wife who believed that people who
824. 01:27:25 lived in california were happier and he was basically saying well i don't believe that that's
825. 01:27:30 really the case and talked about the discussion that they had and kind of the findings from that but
826. 01:27:37 i don't know i feel like there's a lot of room for taking the principles here and talking about
827. 01:27:45 them not in a research room context but this is how this person overcame this in their personal
828. 01:27:51 life again that's not his goal but that is what i would have preferred totally my preference i
829. 01:27:56 understand that so it's a definitely a good book and like you i am glad that i read it it's not
830. 01:28:02 something that i will probably read again and i struggle with where to rate this because all
831. 01:28:09 of my negative feelings with it i understand are completely just based on my personal preferences
832. 01:28:13 but also that's what we do on this podcast right we talk about this from our personal
833. 01:28:19 perspective what we thought of the book so i'm going to rate it at 3.0 all right there you have it
834. 01:28:24 and i'm glad to have gone through it but i'm also glad to put it on the shelf so let's shelf it
835. 01:28:31 what's next mike next is it doesn't have to be crazy at work the one that i put off
836. 01:28:36 when we read the art of gathering by jason freeed and dh the base camp guys david
837. 01:28:42 anemir hanson good job yes how do you so proud of you mike did you look that up before we started
838. 01:28:50 i did not oh i'm even more impressed now i'm super proud of you all right so we'll we'll go
839. 01:28:58 through the base camp guys stuff uh next time following that we're gonna go through zen and the
840. 01:29:05 art of motorcycle maintenance what are you getting me into i know i know i know i know i know but this
841. 01:29:10 will be fun like i feel like this is one that i've seen around the block a number of times and
842. 01:29:15 whenever i see like pictures on instagram where people have a stack of books and they're like these
843. 01:29:19 are so the best books i've read this year and you'll have like the one thing and atomic habits
844. 01:29:24 digital minimalism and then they'll have zen in the art of motorcycle maintenance in there like
845. 01:29:29 they they tend to group it with those i don't know i'm super curious like why do they do that
846. 01:29:35 and i figured i would drag mike through the mud with me so looking at the wikipedia page for
847. 01:29:40 this by the way it is a work of fictionalized autobiography interest thing this is the closest
848. 01:29:49 you're ever going to get me to fiction on this podcast i'm trying trying i'm not alone by the way
849. 01:29:55 go listen to the near-eye all interview when it goes up which will be in a week i asked him about
850. 01:29:59 that that'll be fun uh teaser alert there i guess yep uh gany get books mike i do i have this one
851. 01:30:08 this is take the day off by robert morris uh robert morris is a pastor a christian author who wrote
852. 01:30:18 the book the blessed life that's probably the one that people would be most familiar with take the
853. 01:30:23 day off is kind of the whole idea behind the uh the idea of the sabbath and i feel like this is an
854. 01:30:30 idea that a lot of people don't really understand myself included i want to understand it more so
855. 01:30:36 let me see what uh robert morris has to say very interested in that
856. 01:30:41 may have to pick that one up myself for sure i don't have any gap books i'm kind of in that mode
857. 01:30:46 again trying to get a bunch of stuff done there's some a lot of difficult sensitive situations
858. 01:30:53 going at our church i've explained some of that to mike i'm not going to get into it here but it's
859. 01:30:57 been a rough rough couple weeks at the church for sure so no gap books this week but we do have
860. 01:31:06 a special episode coming in a week so stay tuned to the bookworm feed a week from today as you're
861. 01:31:14 listening to this and uh yes we'll we're looking forward to that one if you're interested in supporting
862. 01:31:21 the show that's way to do that is go to bookworm.fm/membership and sign up for the club and join a uh sign up for a membership as well that'll get you access to all of mike's mine node files
863. 01:31:34 and see what he does with his mind maps you know now that he's got a course out through the suite setup on it
864. 01:31:39 you could at least see what he does personally as well so kind of a cool thing there but yes if you
865. 01:31:46 become a member you get to listen to the show's live you get some cool wallpaper you get to listen to
866. 01:31:50 uh if you gapbook episodes see the the mind node files that mike does a lot of cool stuff so if you're
867. 01:31:56 interested in that bookworm.fm/membership all right well thank you everybody for listening and if you're
868. 01:32:04 reading along pick up it doesn't have to be crazy at work and we will talk to you in a couple of weeks